Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: rpm on August 19, 2004, 06:09:49 PM
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Let's see if Dubya will put up or shut up.
source (http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=topNews&storyID=6022735)
By Carol Giacomo
BOSTON (Reuters) - John Kerry accused President Bush of using surrogates to "do his dirty work," as the Democratic presidential challenger hit back on Thursday at a Republican assault on his Vietnam War record.
In his toughest response yet to questions of whether he deserved the honors he won in war, Kerry said if the president wanted to debate the issue of their respective battle records then "Bring it on."
Kerry said a group called the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth, which has attacked the Massachusetts senator's war record via television advertisements, was funded by hundreds of thousands of dollars from a Republican contributor in Texas, Bush's home state.
"They're a front for the Bush campaign. And the fact that the president won't denounce what they're up to tells you everything you need to know: he wants them to do his dirty work," Kerry told a convention of the International Association of Fire Fighters, a politically active union which backs Kerry.
"Of course, the president keeps telling people he would never question my service to our country. Instead, he watches as a Republican-funded attack group does just that," Kerry said.
"Well, if he wants to have a debate about our service in Vietnam, here is my answer: 'Bring it on,"' the Massachusetts senator said, to cheers from the firefighters.
Kerry noted that 30 years ago, official Navy reports documented his service in Vietnam and awarded him the Silver Star, the Bronze Star and three Purple Hearts.
"Thirty years ago, this was the plain truth. It still is. And I still carry the shrapnel in my leg from a wound in Vietnam," he added.
I heard Dubya still carries the hangover from that DWI.:aok
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Originally posted by rpm371
Let's see if Dubya will put up or shut up.
source (http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=topNews&storyID=6022735)
:aok
He started this back in April, why is he complaining?
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Because the republicans are lying.
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Funny, I haven't heard him complaining about Soros and Moveon.org.
More Kerry hypocrisy
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I have'nt seen any lies coming out of there. But they are free to debate that, along with their military records, when Bush accepts.
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Rash measures to curb the backfire.
Not exactly a presidential quality.
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Looks to me like he's standing tall under fire and not running from a fight. Unlike Dubya.
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Originally posted by rpm371
Because the republicans are lying.
Funny I havnt heard "paid for' by:
1. veterans for Bush
2. RNC
3. Republican anything
4. George W. Bush
in ANY of the adds.
How are the republicans lying?
OH, you mean that one of the major contributers to the group is in fact a republican.
So by that standard Kerry compared Bush's record to Hitler's....I hardly find that good behavior.
Besides. Bush did condem the ads. He condemed ALL 527 group ads. He has said it publicly....look for the quote yourself.
keep digging Kerry!
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How are the republicans lying?
A report on Thursday in the Washington Post said military records contradicted a claim that Kerry did not come under fire during the battle that resulted in military honors for the Democratic senator.
Larry Thurlow, who commanded a Navy boat alongside Kerry in Vietnam, has disputed that Kerry was shot at during the March 1969 raid that resulted in Bronze Stars being awarded to both men. Thurlow is a member of Swift Boat Veterans for Truth.
Thurlow's military records, partially obtained under the Freedom of Information Act by the Washington Post, contain references to "enemy small arms and automatic fire" directed at "all units" of the five-boat flotilla, the newspaper says.
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I believe that moore is a front for the kerrie campain and there was never a bigger pack of lies than moores trashing of Bush...
Bush should tell kerrie to prove moores garbage is true.
lazs
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Originally posted by rpm371
Looks to me like he's standing tall under fire and not running from a fight. Unlike Dubya.
Hes standing tall infront of the wrong man. W has roughly zero to do with the ads.
Sounds like a weapon of mass distraction to me. :aok
A report on Thursday in the Washington Post said military records contradicted a claim that Kerry did not come under fire during the battle that resulted in military honors for the Democratic senator.
Larry Thurlow, who commanded a Navy boat alongside Kerry in Vietnam, has disputed that Kerry was shot at during the March 1969 raid that resulted in Bronze Stars being awarded to both men. Thurlow is a member of Swift Boat Veterans for Truth.
Thurlow's military records, partially obtained under the Freedom of Information Act by the Washington Post, contain references to "enemy small arms and automatic fire" directed at "all units" of the five-boat flotilla, the newspaper says.
See?
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Originally posted by Saurdaukar
Hes standing tall infront of the wrong man. W has roughly zero to do with the ads.
Sounds like a weapon of mass distraction to me. :aok
You actually believe the Bush campaign had NOTHING to do with the ads? Get real.
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A report on Thursday in the Washington Post said military records contradicted a claim that Kerry did not come under fire during the battle that resulted in military honors for the Democratic senator.
Larry Thurlow, who commanded a Navy boat alongside Kerry in Vietnam, has disputed that Kerry was shot at during the March 1969 raid that resulted in Bronze Stars being awarded to both men. Thurlow is a member of Swift Boat Veterans for Truth.
Thurlow's military records, partially obtained under the Freedom of Information Act by the Washington Post, contain references to "enemy small arms and automatic fire" directed at "all units" of the five-boat flotilla, the newspaper says..
Step 1 Highlight quoted text
step 2 press ctrl F on your keyboard
step 3 enter the word "republican" in the text box of the search window
step 4 hit enter or press search:
results: The word republican was not found in the selected text....please try again
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Grunslinger, keep chanting that republican mantra. It does not change the facts.
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Kerry's either a war criminal himself or a liar. He admitted before congress that he participated in "war crimes". He is either a liar or a criminal.
Forget all the other stuff. So what's it going to be Dem war criminal or Dem liar?
Those are facts. Your claim "Bush has be the one driving the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth just because I just think he is" certainly isn't based on any fact.
Kerry is as two faced, at least on record, as any politician in history. Everything he's says today he will say he didn’t say or at least didn’t "mean" tomorrow. The most recent example is his response to Bush bring 12000 troops home from Korea. He was before it before he was against and what will it be next week?
It obvious and you know it is. The question I have is what does it say about you if you go to such length to stick up for this guy?
You don't have to support Bush, I don't but you can't be that blind not to see what kind of person Kerry is. I know you hate Bush but isn't that completely separate then your blind support for Kerry?
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Originally posted by rpm371
Grunslinger, keep chanting that republican mantra. It does not change the facts.
WHAT FACTS.......you have not given me ONE FACT that these adds are funded or supported by the RNC or any other major player in the republican party.
the only thing remotly republican I've heard of these adds were that a republican who is a media conglomerate or somthing gave these guys a bunch of money. That's it.
Put up or shut up!
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I doubt you've posted a true "fact" in this thread as yet RPM.
The way you continually denigrate Guard service puts you right on the level of those you rant against in my book.
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Now for something germane to the campaign.
Hey, did you guys see that Kerry blasted Bush's plan to withdraw troops from Korea?
And did you seen on the news the clip of Kerry in an ABC interview (I think it was ABC) a week or so earlier telling the reporter that Kerryy thought we should be looking at pulling troops out of Korea?
So what do you think of that? How about some current events?
Kerry says we should be looking at pulling troops out of Korea one week and the next week he's blasting Bush for planning to pull troops out of Korea.
You think he's just pandering for votes maybe? Say anything to get elected? That he has no real plan other than "I'm not Bush" and "I don't really know what I'm going to do." ?
So what do you think RPM?
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Originally posted by rpm371
Grunslinger, keep chanting that republican mantra. It does not change the facts.
Ya know what? Kerry hurt hisself bad. Not ANY of the folks I have talked to in the last month knew anything about Kerrys VN record
Not one had heard ANYTHING bad about Kerrys record
Welp everyone will hear about it now its all over the news and on Nightline tonight.
Whether or not he served honorably or not millions will hear about it now.
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I hope Kerry doesnt run into 3 questions or challenges he has trouble with, he will run away from the dangerous chance of another tough one. It is his pattern.
dago
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Originally posted by rpm371
You actually believe the Bush campaign had NOTHING to do with the ads? Get real.
Now were shifting from 'facts' to 'belief?'
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RPM: "but...but....duh...I...I...um ....huh"
running short on actual facts????????????
I could do what librals do: Completly ignore what you said about bush and bring up Moveon.org's add that compared Bush to hitler and how that is 10Xs worse than what the swift boat ads do.
(CRICKETS)
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it would be a great debate. bush jr a fighter pilot who only claimed to be a fighter pilot. kerry a small boat oic who claimed to be a war criminal along with all us forces in vn. funny i thought it was us immunizing the kids and the nlf assassinating school teacher hamlet leader and everyone who not agree to become bullet stoppers for nlf when they egress thru village after hit and run attack. and no slam on surface warfare os but its a heck of a lot tougher to become a fighter pilot than it is to become a surface warfare o. rpm take off the blinders. dems should have gone with liberman. i know you may find it hard to believe but plenty of guys in military hate kerry not because hes a dem candidiot for cic but because hes a lying traitor to every guy who served in vn. that debate will never happen because there are two questions bush could ask that would crucify kerry on natl tv. and there wouldnt be a swarm of dem spinsters to control the damage before it was to late.
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tic......toc.......tic....... ..toc.........tic.........toc ...(pin drop)...tic.....toc.....
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Originally posted by Gunslinger
RPM: "but...but....duh...I...I...um ....huh"
running short on actual facts????????????
I could do what librals do: Completly ignore what you said about bush and bring up Moveon.org's add that compared Bush to hitler and how that is 10Xs worse than what the swift boat ads do.
(CRICKETS)
Because I do not live and breathe to watch this board every second and actually fly Aces High for a few hours does not mean you are correct Grunslinger.
The FACT that the man Kerry pulled from the water said they were under fire and every time he surfaced small arms fire was hitting near him.
The FACT that Swift Boat Blah Blah Blah is funded by republican money.
The FACT that the president won't denounce what they're up to tells you everything that you need to know — he wants them to do his dirty work.
The FACT that Navy documents contradict Thurlow's account.
The FACT that Thurlow accepted awards for the same engagement and did not refute the story then.
The FACT that Swift Boat Blah Blah Blah is run by the same group that tried to smear John McCain's military service.
How's that for facts? Tick, tick, tick....(crickets)
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yet you never ONCE mentioned a FACT or backed it up in your nice list of "facts". I wasnt disputing what happend in vietnam almost 40 years ago. I was disputing the assumption on your part that the republicans are behind the adds and called you on it.
You still have yet to show me any credible evidence that anyone involved in these adds are in fact linked to the Bush campaign.
Dont get mad at me......I'm not the one that had diarea of the mouth and not be able to back up my statement.
BTW...bush has come out against these adds as well as all other 527 group adds. Even if he told them to stop they'd still be running.
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Originally posted by rpm371
Because I do not live and breathe to watch this board every second and actually fly Aces High for a few hours does not mean you are correct Grunslinger.
The FACT that the man Kerry pulled from the water said they were under fire and every time he surfaced small arms fire was hitting near him.
The FACT that Swift Boat Blah Blah Blah is funded by republican money.
The FACT that the president won't denounce what they're up to tells you everything that you need to know — he wants them to do his dirty work.
The FACT that Navy documents contradict Thurlow's account.
The FACT that Thurlow accepted awards for the same engagement and did not refute the story then.
The FACT that Swift Boat Blah Blah Blah is run by the same group that tried to smear John McCain's military service.
How's that for facts? Tick, tick, tick....(crickets)
the swifties for the truth are a 527 group just like the far more insane and evil moveon.org. if there was any link between them and republican campaign funds they could be very harshly disciplined. face it dude kerry is an opportunistic liar. you cant play "america is evil i know im jane fondas sweetheart technician" in the seventies and all of a sudden become "mr stereotypical vn vet hero just whats needed in the whitehouse" and not have anyone with half a brain call you on it. whats your opinion on kerry stating that military service doesnt matter for president when he was defending bills run for pres but now its a lynchpin. and explain the perjury before the senate for me as well.
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Here's a few more FACTS about Swift Boat Blah Blah Blah.
Narrator: "Here's what these men think about John Kerry."
FACT: None of the Following Speakers in This Ad Served on Either of Kerry's Two SWIFT Boats (PCF44 & PCF94). Absolutely NONE of these men served on John Kerry's SWIFT boats in Vietnam. Some of them were in Vietnam at the same time, some of them did serve on SWIFT boats but none of them were on John Kerry's SWIFT boat.
George Elliott: "John Kerry has not been honest about what happened in Vietnam."
FACT: George Elliott was NOT a crewmate of John Kerry's. In a campaign speech FOR Kerry he said: "The fact that he chased an armed enemy down is not something not to be looked down upon but it was an act of courage. And the whole outfit served with honor..."[T]here was no question that it was above and beyond anything that we had seen down there in that case at that time frame...It just so happened that this one was so outstanding that the Silver Star was eventually awarded." [Kerry Press Conference, 10/27/96]
Al French: "He is lying about his record."
FACT: Al French was NOT a crewmate of John Kerry's. He has no evidence to back his accusations.
Louis Letson: "I know John Kerry is lying about his first purple heart, because I treated him for that injury."
FACT: Louis Letson, Now Part of the Republican Veterans Efforts to Smear Kerry, WAS NOT the Doctor That Signed Kerry's Sick Call Sheet and Was NOT a Kerry Crewmate. Despite Letson's claims to have treated Kerry, he is not listed on any document as having treated Kerry after the 12/2/68 firefight. Offering only an account of dates and places-which is readily available in Kerry's biography and media accounts-Letson has produced nothing to verify his treatment of Kerry.
Van O'Dell:"John Kerry lied to get his Bronze Star. I know. I was there. I saw what happened."
FACT: Van O'Dell was NOT a crewmate of John Kerry's. John Kerry was nominated for the Bronze Star by James Rassmann and eyewitness accounts, official naval documents and independent analyses all state that Kerry and his crew were under fire on the day in question.
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Jack Chenowith: "His account of what happened and what actually happened are the difference between night and day."
FACT: Jack Chenowith was NOT a crewmate of John Kerry's. Its Not Kerry's Account on the Bronze Star Citation-It's the Account of the U.S. Navy, Admiral Elmo Zumwalt Commander U.S. Naval Forces in Vietnam and backed up by Presidential Historian Douglas Brinkley, James Rassmann and the Crewmate of PCF-44 & PCF 94.
Roy Hoffman: "John Kerry has not been honest."
FACT: Roy Hoffmann was NOT a crewmate of John Kerry's. "Hoffman acknowledged he had no first-hand knowledge to discredit Kerry's claims to valor and said that although Kerry was under his command, he really didn't know Kerry much personally." [Milwaukee Journal Sentinel, 5/7/04]
Adrian Lonsdale: "He lacks the capacity to lead"
FACT: Adrian Lonsdale was NOT a crewmate of John Kerry's. While campaigning FOR Kerry in 1996 he said "As far as I was concerned, the war was won over there in that part for that period. And it was mainly won because of the bravado and the courage of the young officers that ran the boats, the SWIFT boats and the Coast Guard cutters and Senator Kerry was no exception." [Kerry for Senate Press Conference, 10/27/96]
Larry Thurlow: "When the chips were down, you could not count on John Kerry."
FACT: Larry Thurlow was NOT a crewmate of John Kerry's. On the day Kerry pulled Rassmann from the water, "Larry Thurlow had maneuvered his PCF-51 over by this time and he hopped aboard PCF-3 to offer assistance. The boat was in shambles but they were still shooting too hard to assess any damage" "BOATS RECEIVED HEAVY A/W [automatic weapons] & S/A [small arms] FROM BOTH BANKS…ALL BOATS AND MSF RETURNED FIRE…PCF-94 [Kerry's boat] PICKED UP MSF ADVISOR WHO WENT OVERBOARD…PCF-94 TOWED PCF-3." [Tour of Duty, Brinkley, 2004, p. 314; U.S. Navy After Action Report]
Bob Elder: "John Kerry is no war hero."
FACT: Bob Elder was NOT a crewmate of John Kerry's. John Kerry recieved the Silver Star, Bronze Star and 3 Purple Hearts.
Shelton White: "John Kerry betrayed the men and women he served with in Vietnam."
Joe Ponder: "He dishonored his country. He most certainly did."
Grant Hibbard: "He betrayed all his shipmates. He lied before the Senate.
FACTS: White, Ponder and Hibbard were NOT crewmates of John Kerry.
When pressed by conservative talk show host Sean Hannity, retired General and Former Commander in Chief of Central Command, Tommy Franks believed Kerry's summary of what other soldiers had told him about unfortunate actions by a few U.S. soldiers in Vietnam: "I'm not sure that -- that activities like that didn't take place. In fact, quite the contrary. I'm sure that they did." [Fox News, Hannity & Colmes, 8/3/04]
In April of 2004, the Toledo Blade was awarded the Pulitzer Prize for their series detailing the atrocities committed by a few American soldiers in Vietnam. The series was based upon the Tiger Force which operated for several months in the Central Highlands of Vietnam.
Bon Hildreth: "I served with John Kerry. John Kerry cannot be trusted."
FACT: Bob Hildreth was NOT a crewmate of John Kerry's. But Jim Wasser Was: "If John Kerry came to us and said he had one more mission and we're going to hell, he'd have a full crew" -- Jim Wasser [Dallas Morning News, 7/29/04]
tick,tick,tick...
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Nobody who wasnt on Kerry's boat every second of their service was ever really in Vietnam and they have no clue what they talking about!!!!
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WOW you can go on and on about who was not kerry's crewmates but actually saw what happend after a mine exploded and kerry (AND ONLY KERRY"S BOAT) turned and ran while the remaining three boats assisted the one that hit the mine.....
keep in mind there were a total of 5 boats there working in close proximity......and the crews of all the other boats say the same thing.....kerry cut and ran.
BUT,
I was more concerned with your FIRST statement that this is a republican add.
I'm getting really tired of repeating myself but
YOU HAVE YET TO SHOW ME ONE BIT OF CREDIBLE EVIDENCE THAT THIS SWIFT BOAT ADD IS A PRODUCT OF THE BUSH CAMPAING.
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Fox News: "Many Of Them Are Republicans Who Have Contributed To And Backed Various Bush Campaigns And Causes Over The Decades" "Kerry's military service was an asset during the primaries; critics hoped to transform it into a liability now. The GOP says it's not involved with the veterans criticizing Kerry, but many of them are Republicans who have contributed to and backed various Bush campaigns and causes over the decades." [Fox News, Special Report, Cameron, 5/4/04]
Dallas Morning News: "Veterans' Group Critical of Kerry Backed by Bush Supporter." Bob Perry, a major supporter of President Bush and the Republican Party, is the biggest financial backer of a veterans group seeking to discredit Democrat John Kerry's military service, according to federal records. Perry, a Houston homebuilder, gave $100,000 to Swift Boat Veterans for Truth, a group that has been critical of Kerry's anti-war activities after he returned from Vietnam. That accounted for two-thirds of the organization's receipts to date. [DMN, Slater, 7/23/04]
I'll make it easier. You say Bush has denounced the ad and the group. Prove it, show me the quote.
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Originally posted by rpm371
You have not shown me 1 shred of evidence it's not Grunslinger. Ball is in your court.
i say youre a child rapist who hasnt yet been caught by the cops. i dont have to prove this. you have to prove me wrong. "ball is in your court". are you aware of how stupid you are sounding now? :)
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Originally posted by rpm371
You have not shown me 1 shred of evidence it's not Grunslinger. Ball is in your court.
no no no no.....you are the one that made the acusation.
You want proof.....The add is paid for by "swift boat vets for truth" They are a 527 political action group and by law cannot recieve funds from the republican party nore have any association with its canidate.
DId you know Kerry joined the communist party after nam?
Yea its true...prove it wrong RPM.
Why dont you just save yourself some face and admit you were wrong and retract your statement.
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I edited the post to ease your mind. That was using Bush tactics and I apologuise.
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Originally posted by rpm371
I edited the post to ease your mind.
id edit the registered democrats from the ranks of swifties for the truth to ease your mind but that cant be done. youre going to have to accept that this isnt political. its about a guy being a dishonorable and a liar and getting called on it.
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Originally posted by anonymous
id edit the registered democrats from the ranks of swifties for the truth to ease your mind but that cant be done. youre going to have to accept that this isnt political. its about a guy being a dishonorable and a liar and getting called on it.
Better read the line by line debunking of the ad again and decide who's being dishonorable and lying.
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Q Do you -- does the President repudiate this 527 ad that calls Kerry a liar on Vietnam?
MR. McCLELLAN: The President deplores all the unregulated soft money activity. We have been very clear in stating that, you know, we will not -- and we have not and we will not question Senator Kerry's service in Vietnam. I think that this is another example of the problem with the unregulated soft money activity that is going on. The President thought he put an end -- or the President thought he got rid of this kind of unregulated soft money when he signed the bipartisan campaign finance reforms into law.
And, you know, the President has been on the receiving end of more than $62 million in negative attacks from shadowy groups. The President is calling for an immediate cessation to all the unregulated soft money activity. He believes that it should all be stopped. The unregulated soft money activity that is going on does nothing to elevate the discourse. We hope the Kerry campaign will join us in calling for an end to all the unregulated soft money ads and activity.
President Bush's re-election campaign distanced itself from the ad. Campaign spokesman Steve Schmidt said the president's re-election effort "has never and will never question John Kerry's service in Vietnam. The election will be about the future."
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Now tell us all how many of those guys that "were not Kerry's crewmate" or "were not in Kerry's boat" were in Coastal Squadron 1, Coastal Division 14 when Kerry was in that unit?
How many of those guys that "were not Kerry's crewmate" or "were not in Kerry's boat" were in Coastal Division 11 when Kerry was in that unit?
How many of those guys that "were not Kerry's crewmate" or "were not in Kerry's boat" were in Coastal Division 13 when Kerry was in that unit?
See, there's a big problem with some military vets when the Kerry campaign starts braying that "so and so wasn't in the boat".
In the Air Force, everybody in the Squadron knows who can hack it and who can't. The stories get around real fast.
In the Army, I'm sure it's about the same. Everybody in the Company pretty much knows who the screw-ups and "doers" are. You don't have to be in the same squad to know that.
I'm sure in the Navy it's quite the same in a relatively small Coastal Squadron.
So to vets, this "wasn't in the boat" stuff doesn't float very far and makes the Kerry campaign look stupid.
They have chosen to run on his VietNam record. A stupid choice IMO but it may be all they have. They've got a group that can't easily be dismissed that was THERE when Kerry was THERE saying he's not so hot. Not good.
They've got Kerry's own anti-war testimony to deal with too and eventually that's going to get dug up and examined under a microscope. Not good.
They cry like babies about pro-Bush 527 groups linked to the Reps bashing Kerry in ads while they deny that any pro-kerry 527 groups bashing Bush have links to the Dems. As if; they make themselves look foolish with such hypocrisy.
Kerry's smartest move right now would be to distance himself from his VN experience... because that "Winter Soldier" thing is right around the corner in this campaign and it's going to P.O. a lot of VN vets when what he said about them gets spread across the headlines again.
Kerry better get busy and lay out some plans on where he's gonna take us and how he's gonna get it done. You know... that Leadership Thing that he want's us to believe he has in spades because he was a JO on a PCF 30 years ago.
He's hurting himself bigtime with the VN fixation, IMO.
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If you're really curious about the republican connection just look up a bio of John E. O'Neill and Jerome R. Corsi.
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Nice tap dance, but no. The quote we are looking for is "I'm George W. Bush and I do not approve of this message." The President has not said that .
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Originally spouted by rpm371
I edited the post to ease your mind. That was using Bush tactics and I apologuise.
AND
You actually believe the Bush campaign had NOTHING to do with the ads? Get real.
Accepted.....but your edit does not prove that the RNC or the Bush campaign had anything at all to do with the add.
George Soros is democratic contributer and he also bank rolls moveon.org.
MOveon.org once had an add comparing Bush to Hitler....would it then be a logical path to say that Kerry's people or the DNC had anything to do with the add.
Cmon man just back away gracfully....you are wrong.
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In fact, I suggest Kerry take a page from Nebraska's Tommy Frazier at the Orange Bowl
Warren Sapp was raggin' Frazier for not doing much and taunted him "Where ya been Tommie?"
Frazier replied "It's not about where I been, it's about where I'm going, Fat Boy!"
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Toad, the problem is they were not saying that at the time. Back then they were praising him publicly for his service. Even as late as 1996 they were campaigning for him. They are liars. There is no proof that any of the accusations are nothing more than a republican marketing group's pack of lies created to make Kerry's service look cheap because their candidate's service was weak at best.
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Originally posted by rpm371
Nice tap dance, but no. The quote we are looking for is "I'm George W. Bush and I do not approve of this message." The President has not said that .
sorry the cic doesnt have the time right now to reword things so the people who equate him to hitler and call him a liar after he gets data from a cia weakened by his accusers will not have hurt feelings. if i were you id start brushing up on debunking tactics when the winter soldier deal comes to light again. i cant wait to see the crap that gets typed here for that. "i commited atrocities before i decided that they werent atrocities after all". hey maybe i can get a job with kerrys campaign. :)
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Maybe this will ease your mind Grunslinger. I do not believe The George W. Bush Committee for Re-election publicly, above board funnelled money to the ad or left a paper trail if they did. Better?
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Originally posted by rpm371
Toad, the problem is they were not saying that at the time. Back then they were praising him publicly for his service. Even as late as 1996 they were campaigning for him. They are liars. There is no proof that any of the accusations are nothing more than a republican marketing group's pack of lies created to make Kerry's service look cheap because their candidate's service was weak at best.
So....it went from Bush is behind the adds...to the Republicans (plural insinuating that the party is behind this) to a republican marketing group.
Why dont you just admit it is a group of Veterans whom happen to be republican supporters.
You've been too much into kerry man.....next thing you'll try and tell me they were a republican marketing group BEFORE they were the Bush team!
Originally posted by rpm371
Maybe this will ease your mind Grunslinger. I do not believe The George W. Bush Committee for Re-election publicly, above board funnelled money to the ad or left a paper trail if they did. Better?
it's a start. I guess it counts as libralspeak for I was wrong or I just cant prove what I say.
EDIT:
BTW....I'm nothing like Grunherz so you can stop with the Grunslinger. (not that I think you are a bad person Grun)
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Originally posted by Toad
Now tell us all how many of those guys that "were not Kerry's crewmate" or "were not in Kerry's boat" were in Coastal Squadron 1, Coastal Division 14 when Kerry was in that unit?
How many of those guys that "were not Kerry's crewmate" or "were not in Kerry's boat" were in Coastal Division 11 when Kerry was in that unit?
How many of those guys that "were not Kerry's crewmate" or "were not in Kerry's boat" were in Coastal Division 13 when Kerry was in that unit?
See, there's a big problem with some military vets when the Kerry campaign starts braying that "so and so wasn't in the boat".
In the Air Force, everybody in the Squadron knows who can hack it and who can't. The stories get around real fast.
In the Army, I'm sure it's about the same. Everybody in the Company pretty much knows who the screw-ups and "doers" are. You don't have to be in the same squad to know that.
I'm sure in the Navy it's quite the same in a relatively small Coastal Squadron.
So to vets, this "wasn't in the boat" stuff doesn't float very far and makes the Kerry campaign look stupid.
They have chosen to run on his VietNam record. A stupid choice IMO but it may be all they have. They've got a group that can't easily be dismissed that was THERE when Kerry was THERE saying he's not so hot. Not good.
They've got Kerry's own anti-war testimony to deal with too and eventually that's going to get dug up and examined under a microscope. Not good.
They cry like babies about pro-Bush 527 groups linked to the Reps bashing Kerry in ads while they deny that any pro-kerry 527 groups bashing Bush have links to the Dems. As if; they make themselves look foolish with such hypocrisy.
Kerry's smartest move right now would be to distance himself from his VN experience... because that "Winter Soldier" thing is right around the corner in this campaign and it's going to P.O. a lot of VN vets when what he said about them gets spread across the headlines again.
Kerry better get busy and lay out some plans on where he's gonna take us and how he's gonna get it done. You know... that Leadership Thing that he want's us to believe he has in spades because he was a JO on a PCF 30 years ago.
He's hurting himself bigtime with the VN fixation, IMO.
spot on. reputation can spread beyond unit and go base-wide and even community wide easy. especially if its extreme either bad or good.
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So you're equating them to moveon.org and America Coming Together? A Democratic marketing group's pack of lies created to make Bush look bad?
Look, IF these guys have changed their stories, then the BEST thing Kerry could do would be to SHOW that. Either print or film clips back to back of the "then and now" on his fellow Swifties. In short, attack THEIR credibility by showing their Flip/Flops. If what you say is true, it could easily be done, no?
This "they weren't in the boat" defense makes me laugh out loud. Sorry, man... EVERYBODY in my sqaudron knew how everybody else was doing. They were your friends, your buddies...... and your competitors for promotion. We all kept tabs. Telling me so and so couldn't "KNOW" the character of a squadronmate because he was in a different boat in the formation simply makes whoever says that look like a fool. IMO. And probably in a lot of other vets opinion as well.
Like I said, they'd best distance themselves from VN. Winter Soldier is going to be a two-three week topic if they don't and it'll probably be mid-October when it gets center stage. That's a minefield for Kerry.
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Originally posted by Gunslinger
So....it went from Bush is behind the adds...to the Republicans (plural insinuating that the party is behind this) to a republican marketing group.
Why dont you just admit it is a group of Veterans whom happen to be republican supporters.
You've been too much into kerry man.....next thing you'll try and tell me they were a republican marketing group BEFORE they were the Bush team!
The Swift Boat ad was produced by the political advertising firm also responsible for producing attack ads that questioned McCain’s military service when he was running against Bush in 2000. So yes, they always were a political marketing group.
Sorry for getting your names confused. When I'm being dogpiled it's hard to tell the difference.
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Originally posted by rpm371
The Swift Boat ad was produced by the political advertising firm also responsible for producing attack ads that questioned McCain’s military service when he was running against Bush in 2000. So yes, they always were a political marketing group.
Sorry for getting your names confused. When I'm being dogpiled it's hard to tell the difference.
but you are saying that the Bush campaign is NOT behind these adds...OR you just cant prove that they are?
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Toad, that is what they are doing. You just won't see it on Fox News. Kerry told Bush to "Bring it on" and debate him about his service and give him the chance to publicly defend his war record and decorations and give Bush opportunity to denounce the ads. Nothing but crickets from Dubya.
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Originally posted by rpm371
Nothing but crickets from Dubya.
kerry is policking here
The President deplores all the unregulated soft money activity. We have been very clear in stating that, you know, we will not -- and we have not and we will not question Senator Kerry's service in Vietnam.
Bush does not have to condemn the adds because he has condemnd ALL adds from soft money groups....something kerry has not done......nore specifically done with any of the attack adds FOR him AGAINST Bush.
Keep spinning....keep digging.
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Originally posted by Gunslinger
but you are saying that the Bush campaign is NOT behind these adds...OR you just cant prove that they are?
First, the quote does not match the question. You need to take a break.
Second, I answered the question already. Asking it again will not get a different response.
And in conclusion, I am going to actually fly Aces High for a couple hours. I suggest you do the same, it's a fun game. If not, feel free to dogpile and make believe you are winning a debate.
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Originally posted by rpm371
First, the quote does not match the question. You need to take a break.
Second, I answered the question already. Asking it again will not get a different response.
And in conclusion, I am going to actually fly Aces High for a couple hours. I suggest you do the same, it's a fun game. If not, feel free to dogpile and make believe you are winning a debate.
sorry man I wasnt intent on dogpiling you everyone else joined in on their own accord.
Happy hunting though....wish I had a puter that would run AH2 or I'd be flying.
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If you make those assumptions about me, you're going to end up deluding yourself.
I make it a point to read more of the opposing side views on an issue than ones that support my position. That's how you learn. I know what Fox is going to say; that's why I usually read BBC, Reuters, AP, ABC, NBC, CBS and CNN first. I read Al Jazeera too.
If the Kerry campaign can show these Swifties in "flip/flops" on their support of Kerry they better get off their butts and do it. They're losing right now.
Debating Bush on the two Lieutenants repective war record is a loser for Kerry as well. It leads directly to his anti-war activities. While those may make him a sainted hero with the left wing of the Democratic party (which is probably why he got the nomination), it's not going to help him with most VN vets. In fact, it's going to P.O. a lot of them to an "enraged" level.
527's? That's easily flipped. Bush has already said that 527's should be ended. He's said it slipped through a crack in the campaign reform act and he wants them eliminated. Think Kerry will join him in that call for further reform?
Decrying large donations, Kerry said during the 2002 Senate debate on BCRA, “The American people have become almost numb to these kinds of staggering figures, and they have come to expect fund-raising records to be broken with each election cycle. And, what is far worse for our democracy, is that the public also believes that this money buys access and influence that average citizens don't have.”
So now that Soros alone has given ~$16 million to pro-Kerry/anti-Bush 527's, what do you think Kerry's position is?
I'm thinking if Bush challenged Kerry to decry all 527 money and help him with further campaign reform we'd hear....... crickets.
Again, the easy way out of this for Kerry is to talk about where he's going, not where he's been. HE'S the one making VN the focus of his campaign, not Bush. Big Mistake, IMO.
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Toad, I did not mean to insinuate you only watched Faux. I was illustrationg my point that none of the right wing news outlets are going to carry it. Kerry has started running ads debunking SBBBB's propaganda in the markets it was aired today. He did it with "hard money". Both sides are holding on to their warchests until the RNC when they will beat us senseless 24/7 up until the election.
All "soft money" should be banned because it puts the inmates in charge of the asylum, IMHO. I believe this will come up in the debates and both will agree. Debates...can't wait to see how those go.
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rpm you're such a funny guy.. You've bought this Kerry nonsense 100% and you're so enthusiastic and honest about it, like you think Kerry gives a damn about people like you..
Now dont turn this into whrther W gives a damn about you, because we allready know you dont think he does, and you're prolly right, but then why be so gullible about Kerry..
Go Keery! Go rpm! Kerry Kares!
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I am no worse than the Bush supporters in here. I like to think I am a relatively informed and educated voter. Neither candidate is my ideal choice, but I believe (really do) that Kerry will assemble a better team than Bush has.
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Who dou think his team will be?
Personally I dont think much of his VP, he's a slick guy and fun talker but he has no experience whatysoever except one term in the Senate. Plus he is a medical mal practice/ personal injury lawyer, so I highly doubt he will allow Kerry do anything much to cut healcare costs as much of the rise in costs is directly related to outrgeus mal practice insurance rates. Guess why those go up??
What about the other positions?
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Looks like Bush has his brown-shirts doin' the dirty laundry.
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Kerry is the one who continues to make this a campaign issue.
Why won't he just run on his record and give us his detailed plan if he were elected?
Or why doesn't he stick with a single position?
This is incredible that we're allowing both candidates to get away with making side issues (barely) into focal points, including starting threads like this.
RPM, if you truly believe Kerry will form a better team, tell us who and why, and tell us what you think Kerry will implement with that better team. Maybe you can provide the details that Kerry can't.
BTW, I'm doing the write-in thing this election.
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jet pilots in training or swift boat crews???
inquiring minds want to know - LOL
and in the end......
(http://www.iment.com/maida/familytree/cousins/georgebush/images/bushpodium-2.jpg)
LandSlide Bush!!!
(http://www.iment.com/maida/familytree/cousins/georgebush/images/bushandcrowd-2.jpg)
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Originally posted by Stringer
Kerry is the one who continues to make this a campaign issue.
Why won't he just run on his record and give us his detailed plan if he were elected?
Yea! When is he gonna stop attacking..
himself?
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Sign the 108 form and release the DOD war records and all this goes away. Come on Kerry. Put up or STFU.
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MoveOn Ads Okay; Swift Boat Ads Not Okay, Kerry Campaign Says (http://www.cnsnews.com/ViewPolitics.asp?Page=%5CPolitics%5Carchive%5C200408%5CPOL20040820c.html)
And they want folks to take them seriously!
And here's an example of why I think Kerry better get away from the VN issue as fast as possible:
Swift boat crew member glad to see nominee fighting back (http://www.suntimes.com/output/elect/cst-nws-nam20.html)
Other local veterans are far more skeptical and say they will never forgive Kerry for joining the anti-war movement when he got back to the United States.
"I'm a Democrat, but without a doubt, I'm voting for Bush," said Thomas Maher, a Vietnam vet from Mount Greenwood who has never voted Republican in a presidential race. "If everything he did in Vietnam was totally correct, God bless him. . . . But you don't speak out against your own country."
Dennis Rombola, a Streamwood bus driver who was a gunner on Army helicopters in Vietnam, said he just doesn't believe Kerry.
"I got hit by some shrapnel and never took a Purple Heart," Rombola said. "To me, I think Kerry's a phony."
VN still inflames white-hot passions as we've seen on this board. For Mr. Winter Soldier to think the heat will benefit him is self-delusion of the highest magnitude, IMO.
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Originally posted by rpm371
I am no worse than the Bush supporters in here. I like to think I am a relatively informed and educated voter. Neither candidate is my ideal choice, but I believe (really do) that Kerry will assemble a better team than Bush has.
really. name one who you think would be a better secdef than rumsfeld. also explain why. rumsfeld is hands down the best secdef i ever worked for and i worked for several. people always talk about "no bs" and "do the job to do it right not to cya" and rumsfeld is a perfect example of that.
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But on Friday, a spokeswoman for the Kerry campaign backed away from the suggestion. She said what MoveOn.org is doing is perfectly fine, while what the Swift Boat Veterans are doing is "dishonest" and "dishonorable."
Debra Deshong of the Kerry campaign told Fox News there's a difference between MoveOn.org and Swift Boat Veterans for Truth: "MoveOn.org is an independent organization that existed well before the Kerry campaign," she said, whereas Swift Boat Veterans for Truth "is not an independent group."
Again, we (the Kerry campaign) have nothing to do with these independent ads, like MoveOn.org. That is an independent organization that existed well before the Kerry campaign. They have every right to be running what they are under the campaign finance laws." According to Deshong, "This is about the Swift Boat Vets that are running dishonorable ads that Bush refuses to condemn."
WHAT A F****** JOKE!!!
They're got to be kidding me!
They were not in Kerry's boat, so they can't know anything...
This group did not exist before Kerry ran for President so they should be squelched...
Do the Kerry people realize how stupid they sound?
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Originally posted by midnight Target
Yea! When is he gonna stop attacking..
himself?
Hehe, true enough MT.....and what did he use as one of his main themes, if not the biggest theme, during the Convention?
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Do the Kerry people realize how stupid they sound?
They're Kerry people. Stupid is a way of life for them.
dago