Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: killnu on August 19, 2004, 09:42:37 PM
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is it just me or is DM in 38 seemed a tad...weird? if you get hit, at all, it is either a pilot wound or tail comes off, very little in between. thoughts?
it seems like that since last update.
~S~
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I agree with your assessment. The tail seems to just fall off with the greatest of ease.
Patch 7 was the first time I could say nothing bad about the way the game played. As it is now, I am very unhappy.
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All I can go by is personal observance, but I take pilot hits a lot more often in the 38. Even from hits at dead-6 from AAA below me.
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Been that way for a while now. Several threads on both the seeming return of the infamous glass tail and also the seeming certainty of a pilot wound no matter where the shot comes from.
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In my experience all twin engined fighters have a much greater chance of getting a pilot wound. When attacking GVs or bombers it is almost assured.
Don't know about the tail.
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Originally posted by Karnak
In my experience all twin engined fighters have a much greater chance of getting a pilot wound. When attacking GVs or bombers it is almost assured.
Don't know about the tail.
Hmmmm ... wonder if having rounds hitting the engine block is part of the calculation. That could explain twin-engine fighters having "glass jaws."
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I get pilot wounded in my Mossie constantly. Last night got it from an F6F a ways back on my dead 6 and falling back. The Mossie has a very large armor plate behind the pilot. Tail damage, elevator damage, sure, but pilot wound?
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Originally posted by Karnak
In my experience all twin engined fighters have a much greater chance of getting a pilot wound. When attacking GVs or bombers it is almost assured.
Don't know about the tail.
I agree completely. I think it also applies to AAA as well.
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Originally posted by killnu
is it just me or is DM in 38 seemed a tad...weird? if you get hit, at all, it is either a pilot wound or tail comes off, very little in between. thoughts?
it seems like that since last update.
~S~
I Frequently get pilot wounds from puffy acks if I stay in the barrage for too long. As for the plane damage, I must be hitting the bong a little too much but I haven't had all that much troubles with the glass tail lately but I have had an increase in damaged guns and engines. Last night before my Intertardnet connection died, landed my P-38 that was missing 1 flap, 1 elevator, both ailerons, 1 stabilizer/rudder and both engines smoking. Made landing rather interesting.
ack-ack
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Hmmmm ... wonder if having rounds hitting the engine block is part of the calculation. That could explain twin-engine fighters having "glass jaws."
I'd think so too.
I admit that I'm not a very frequent flyer in two engined planes except the 110, but logically speaking, a two-engined plane would not have any engine block in front of him acting out as a gigantic shield.
Also, when it comes to the P-38, it's got a small egg-shaped cockpit that's separate from any part of the fuselage. The cockpit area is small, and does not have a long fuselage to puncture through to get to the pilot.
A shot from the 6'oc angle would almost always either strik the tail boom, or the short cockpit. I wouldn't think anything is strange - neither the frequency of pilot wounds, nor the frequency of tail busts.
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If there is anything fishy at all, it's the frequency of tail destruction which occurs in ALL planes. How many times have you flown in AH, to lose only a single horizontal stab? Never in my years of AH flying, have I ever lost a single stab. It's always two horizontal stabs gone at the same time, which throws the plane off balance.
However, the funny thing is, during off-line testing I did find out that it was possible to destroy only one horizontal stab.
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Maybe AH should strengthen the horizontal stabs/booms on all planes - so that there's a level of partial damage applied to the H-stabs.
For example, when we are hit in the H-stab, we lose the elevator, or the stab itself. Maybe the horizontal stab should also have something like "half blown away" - such as wings. AH wings have three different types of damage - wingtip, half wing, and wingroot(the whole wing). Maybe the Hstab should be like that too.. elevator destroyed, half of Hstab destroyed, and Hstab totally falling off...
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To clarify on what I'm saying a bit more..
Some time ago, there was some debate on whether or not AH is realistc when it comes to tail damage.
The main question was - "what happens if a plane suddenly loses its two Hstabs during flight?"
Some people have come up with the answer that it shouldn't suddenly nose up and get thrown off balance like it does in AH. I'm no physics expert and I have no idea how aerodynamics work, but I do remember that the result of the discussion was that indeed, if a plane suddenly loses all of its Hstabs, it would behave as it does in AH.
So, I think it comes down to the question "how often does such incredible damage occur to a plane"?
During that discussion, I seem to recal some real pilots commenting they indeed, actually have seen such thing happening.. but my impression was that it was very rare.
However, tail damage is the most frequent thing to happen in AH. There isn't any statistics made in AH for the reasons for aicraft loss, but empirically, I'd guess that the #1 reason for aircraft loss is from wing damage(tips, halfwing, or total wing), and #2 would be Hstab loss.
IMO, I think the Hstabs should be strengthened for all planes. So, it would be common thing to lose one stab, but losing them both at the same time as if they were surgically removed, would be a rare thing to happen.
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Here is a diagram of the P-38's cockpit armor layout.
(http://mysite.verizon.net/vze29wyx/armor.JPG)
Thanks to Murdr for posting it
The Mossie's cockpit armor followed much the same pattern, adjusted for the different cockpit design. I don't know about the Bf110.
Also keep in mind that in both the P-38 and Mossie you have guns and ammo bins mounted in front of the armor. These would also stop some rounds, particularly rifle calibre rounds.
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Not that I fly twin engine aircraft that much.
But looking at the pic above it seems fairly obvious that someone in the rear quarter shooting at it will get a lot of hits on that pod.
If he is exactly dead 6 the armour should work. (unless its penitrated).
However if he's off to the side even slightly I can see 20mm rounds sliding by the armour & hitting the dash & exploding.
Giving a pilot wound.
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Most of the pilot wounds I get are from the fron when attacking GVs.
Also keep in mind that the engines on each side do provide some protection from sides hits. More so in the case of the P-38 than the Mossie.
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Most of the pilot wounds I get are from the fron when attacking GVs.
Then that'd be a question of machine guns vs armoured glass.
I'd bet on the machine guns, than trust a thick, hardended glass.
Especially if the kinetic model of rounds work in the same way as attacking a buff from a fighter.
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Also, I would think that its a question of situational realism than a fishy DM.
If someone had a machine gun in his hands, and felt suicidal, and directly aimed and kept firing it against an incoming aircraft.. yeah, I'd say he'd have a pretty big chance of hurting the pilot.
Except in real life, no tank driver would be sticking his neck out and be able to fire vibration-free machine guns against incoming aircraft.
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If it were a mater of the bullets peircing the windscreen then single engined fighters would have the same problem with pilot wounds, but they don't.
Therefore is must be the area below the windscreen.
I just don't think that 7.92mm rounds should be that effective. If they were then I want to get all that useless armor off the airplane so it'll fly better.
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all that i know, is that this crap is getting old real fast. just did 2 hops in my shot amount of time allotted, and got 2 pilot wounds from dead 6 shots, not coming down, no angle, dead 6 shots. one from yak and other a 51? i think. getting old.
~S~
PS. i did notice after pilot wound, that it took more damage than usual for me tho. big help lol
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That armour is nothing compared to having an engine up front. British tests concluded that the seat/back armour on the Mossie or spit (I forget) would stop 96% of the 7.92mm rounds fired from the rear. That means on average every 25th round penetrated.
I know these big metal machines look tough, but never forget that in essence you're sitting in a coffin made of thin aluminum and glass.
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no, the 38 does not have an engine up front. but...it does have 4x50cal MGs and a 20mm cannon.:D but i guess that would provide very little if any protection.:confused:
~S~
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Hmmm. Feels more like one in two 7.92mm rounds will penetrate. I know that they are fragile and I know that the unarmored areas offer literally no protection. It just seems that very brief hits from Panzers always result in a pilot wound.
Do you know what range and angle that test was from?
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If it were a mater of the bullets peircing the windscreen then single engined fighters would have the same problem with pilot wounds, but they don't.
Not true.
I particularly enjoy tank hunting and I've tried all types of planes against tanks. The pintle guns always have a high chance of inflicting damage when I do a strafing pass - particularly with slow aircraft, from Hurricane2D to even the IL-2.
I just don't think that 7.92mm rounds should be that effective. If they were then I want to get all that useless armor off the airplane so it'll fly better.
This is sounding more and more like the old gunnery debate. Just like in those old debates, In terms of ballistics or physics there's no reason that a simple pintle machine gun cannot penetrate glass cockpits. Especially if the kinetic impact is amplified by an airplane speeding towards the bullet.
However, again, just like the old gunnery debates, there's more factors involved than just ballistics or physics. Like said, there's no on earth a tank commander would be stupid enough to leave the hatch wide open and enter a shooting contest against an aircraft.
The only reason we do that in AH, is the hand-held pintle guns are super super easy to aim with, and the pintle guns rarely get damaged by themselves.
IMO in concern with this particular issue with pilot damages when strafing vehicles, I'd say its the GV model that has to be changed, instead of the planes. I'm sure you'd hardly ever get pilot wound, if pintle guns were damaged or its gunner killed easily when an aircraft strafes it.
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No the guns would provide protection, but the ammo would be more of a hazzard. I also see that the P-38 has no belly armor. Most single engined fighters have equipment under the cockpit, like landing gear or radiators. Perhaps this is a weakness modelled in the DM?
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Originally posted by Kweassa
I'm sure you'd hardly ever get pilot wound, if pintle guns were damaged or its gunner killed easily when an aircraft strafes it.
I don't think it would make any difference as the pilot wound usually occurs nearly instantly when I level onto the straffing run. Most often before I have even pulled the trigger. Sure, the gunner would die seconds later, but the wound would still be inflicted.
I usually open fire on GVs at about 600 yards.
GScholz,
Yeah, I've read some accounts of fighters getting hit in the ammo bay. Not good. AH doesn't seem to model that though.
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all that i know, is that this crap is getting old real fast. just did 2 hops in my shot amount of time allotted, and got 2 pilot wounds from dead 6 shots, not coming down, no angle, dead 6 shots. one from yak and other a 51? i think. getting old.
Also, there could be another explanation for this. If the new "hit resolution" is more finer than it used to be, then a lot of rounds that used to connect on the thin tail booms, would now pass over(or under.. but not likely) in AH2, and connect at the cockpit.
In short, in AH1 you'd probably dead, since the tail boom would be hit and come off. In AH2, those shots miss the tail boom and connect at the cockpit.
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Originally posted by Karnak
Hmmm. Feels more like one in two 7.92mm rounds will penetrate. I know that they are fragile and I know that the unarmored areas offer literally no protection. It just seems that very brief hits from Panzers always result in a pilot wound.
Do you know what range and angle that test was from?
No, I don't remember much of the specifics. All the shots were from 6 o'clock IIRC.
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I recall that on late war Spitfires there was an armor plate in front of the ammo bays. That is how serious they felt it was. Of the very few places they spent weight to armor, the ammo bays were included.
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I don't think it would make any difference as the pilot wound usually occurs nearly instantly when I level onto the straffing run.
Because, it is highly likely that the gunner was already shooting at you. Just when you level out, is when he decisvely takes his aim. It's at that point when the barrage of 7.92mms begin to connect.
Most often before I have even pulled the trigger. Sure, the gunner would die seconds later, but the wound would still be inflicted.
I usually open fire on GVs at about 600 yards.
I was more of thinking that if the GV damage model ever changes to how I see fit, an open hatch and a gunner sitting in that place would increase the chance of tank turret being disabled.
So, if an aircraft approaches, the driver would move away from the pintle gun postion - "shutting the doors" and hide... at least, that's what I was thinking of.
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Originally posted by Kweassa
Because, it is highly likely that the gunner was already shooting at you. Just when you level out, is when he decisvely takes his aim. It's at that point when the barrage of 7.92mms begin to connect.
He'd have to be a much better shot than I. I can never hit a banking aircraft with those pintle guns. Heck, I have enough trouble in AH2 hitting them when they're coming right for me. I didn't have that problem in AH1.
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Originally posted by Karnak
GScholz,
Yeah, I've read some accounts of fighters getting hit in the ammo bay. Not good. AH doesn't seem to model that though.
Yeah, there is a guncam clip of a Fw190A suffering from catastrophic ammo explosion in the left wing. Entire wing disintegrates spectacularly and sends the 190 spinning like a toy plane.
On thing that must be remembered is that even the smallest of weapons modelled in AH are capable of devastating damage. The 7.62mm NATO round is slightly less powerful than the .303 and 7.92mm Mauser. I've fired 50 rounds of 7.62mm N AP rounds from an MG-3 against an M113 APC at 400 meters, and not one round failed to penetrate the 1.5-inch thick hardened aluminum side armor. The few lucky fighters that survived cannon damage were usually only hit by one or two rounds.
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well, kweassa, that does make some sense to me. maybe that is it. thank you!
i still dont like it. :p
~S~
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yet another pilot wound bs story. sigh
1k shot by buff, pilot wound, no other damage. some shot lol
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p38 is really strong for me...i mean yesterday i sunk 2 ships within ack range, sure i died on the 2nd but....
8k
rockets on first cv, kill it
climb to 7k, loose wing tip, stuggle to keep her level and on target for 2nd cv group
notice that i cant get keep her up much longer (ack takes out engine) i do a low level attack on cruiser with bombs of 2nd cv group. BOOOOOm it goes down
with both engines hit, 1 wing missing i slip into the sea and die :( :lol
hardly weak huh?:)
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what i woundnt do for a death to be due to something other than a pilot wound or tail coming off. hehe
~S~
oh, and the puffy ack dont count.;)
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Originally posted by killnu
what i woundnt do for a death to be due to something other than a pilot wound or tail coming off. hehe
~S~
oh, and the puffy ack dont count.;)
it was both puffy and "laser" ack ;)
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Originally posted by killnu
no, the 38 does not have an engine up front. but...it does have 4x50cal MGs and a 20mm cannon.:D but i guess that would provide very little if any protection.:confused:
~S~
here is that diagram
(http://mysite.verizon.net/vze29wyx/38guns.JPG)
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Originally posted by Kweassa
Then that'd be a question of machine guns vs armoured glass.
I'd bet on the machine guns, than trust a thick, hardended glass.
Especially if the kinetic model of rounds work in the same way as attacking a buff from a fighter.
That center section of windscreen is completlely flat, and sloped back at a hard angle. Having observed M60 tracers at night, Id have to bet on the glass deflecting frontal shots, except those comming from a more perpendicular angle.
I stated elseware, until they upgrade the 38 graphical model, it will be frustrating because you cannot see where the penetration occured.