Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: eskimo2 on August 20, 2004, 07:33:01 PM
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A new way of:
* Limiting the planes that so many are sick of and other rare late war monsters.
* Balancing an unbalanced arena.
* Making the availability of hot planes equally available to all.
Here is how it works:
* Jets and rocket planes are available only at all rear bases (2 bases behind the front line bases).
* All prop planes are available at secondary front bases (1 base behind the front line bases).
* Front line bases have only early and mid war planes available.
* All planes are perk free (the cost is the extra time it takes to fly to the front).
* With arena imbalance, late war planes become available on front line bases (to the low numbers country).
Reasoning:
The Problem with Perk Points:
In spite of the fact that I’ve never had any trouble earning more perk points than I would ever spend, I’ve never been a fan of using perk points to limit the use of certain planes. This system makes it very easy for experience/better pilots to always fly the best planes. The newbies (who need them the most) rarely can afford the hot planes. This puts the newbies in a hopeless situation where they are slaughtered repeatedly over their free two week trial and gives them little experience of ever holding and using any kind of an advantage. For every “Ace” in this game, there are a heck of a lot of guys who are constant cannon fodder. How much fun can that be? How long are they willing to play before giving up and quitting? Give newbies the same access to the hot planes as the aces.
The Advantages of Balance Through Front Line Plane Type Limits:
The cost of flying a hot/late war plane is exactly the same for all (An LA-7 or P-51D takes the same amount of time to fly to the front regardless of who is flying it.) This becomes a better deal for the newbies. The 15 minutes that it takes to get an LA-7 or P-51D to the front would be worthwhile to a newbie in an environment that is not saturated with like aircraft; newbies might find themselves surviving and getting kills a bit more. Experienced pilots will still be very deadly in mid war fighters and be less likely to spend time commuting to the front. Combat use of “hot” planes will certainly drop simply because it will take longer to get them into the combat zone. Almost everyone will benefit from an arena with a lower concentration of “hot” planes.
Discuss, Spin and /or Trash: (I don’t expect this to go over well)
eskimo
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Well thought out, however, I dont like the idea...
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No argument here. I always enjoyed "ferrying" up a hotter fighter to the fighting when this type of arrangement was done in the Combat Theater. It adds some excitement to have to land and refuel in the combat zone.
Another way to let newbies fly the hot planes would be to reset the perk points every tour, and give everyone the same starting perk point balance. Might take less programming effort. Newbies would lose their perks faster but the challenge to keep them longer and longer into each tour might be a goal for them.
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I’m guessing one major disadvantage would be that people might fly these late war planes even more timidly.
Also, late war fans would most often be forced to launch from secondary front bases. Then again many of these planes need alt/E before they are of great use anyway.
eskimo
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You know I'd actually like to see this setup in a test arena & test it for a week for play.
Would work fine for planes with longer legs.
La7 would have to land at front line field & refuel. Which isn't so bad, but adds a significant hit to it.
I'd leave some planes perked. 262, 163 can both move vast distances in a hurry. Pull the cost down on em & only available at rear fields.
F4u-1c, TA-152, Spit 14, ARado 234, go ahead & unperk but only 4 sectors or more from the front. Far enough that they'd have to fly it for a while, land rearm, then go try to kill something.
This plan has the advantage of making it harder & harder to over come a country as they get pushed back.
ALSO, I'd like to see acks staggered the same way.
Few acks (like now) at forward fields. Adding more & more acks, manned acks, & 88mm puffy flack as you get closer & closer to HQ.
Last, put a 10k field next to the HQ. This should be the farthest field back.
All planes would be available here.
If a side is pushed back to that last ring of fields all planes would be free.
Overall, I'm very impressed & would love to see this get a test OTHER than main.
It would take some map work along with the setup variables.
I'm not sure it can be done with the current setup. HT might have to work for quite a while to get controls in place to make it possible.
So don't be discouraged if you don't see it next week!
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LA7's *were* front line point defense fighters, just as spits were.
not everyone has time to waste "ferrying" planes. no one is forced to up from teh closest base. there's almost always a further base to up from.
i'd be happy just to see people learn to fly the planes they choose to. and i'm not just talking about "furballing." i see very little in the way of organized flying using any semblence of "tactics."
in any case i don't see a system like this being implemented so it's pretty moot.
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Originally posted by oboe
Another way to let newbies fly the hot planes would be to reset the perk points every tour, and give everyone the same starting perk point balance.
I have wondered of this as well.
I would add also that it would give more value to a perk point (in most cases) and further strengthen the influence of the system as originally designed.
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Originally posted by Shane
LA7's *were* front line point defense fighters, just as spits were.
True Shane, this system is pretty much the opposite of reality (WWII frontline fighters were typically the best). It’s meant to improve gameplay and fairness though.
Originally posted by Shane
not everyone has time to waste "ferrying" planes. no one is forced to up from teh closest base. there's almost always a further base to up from.
Not sure what you’re saying here.
Originally posted by Shane
i'd be happy just to see people learn to fly the planes they choose to. and i'm not just talking about "furballing." i see very little in the way of organized flying using any semblence of "tactics."
Do you think that this system would promote organization/missions/tactics since there is an extra benefit to launching from the rear?
Originally posted by Shane
in any case i don't see a system like this being implemented so it's pretty moot.
True
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Originally posted by Ghosth
F4u-1c, TA-152, Spit 14, ARado 234, go ahead & unperk but only 4 sectors or more from the front. Far enough that they'd have to fly it for a while, land rearm, then go try to kill something.
Four sounds pretty far to me, but it’s the concept that counts. Best settings/distances could be tested.
Originally posted by Ghosth
This plan has the advantage of making it harder & harder to over come a country as they get pushed back.
True
Originally posted by Ghosth
ALSO, I'd like to see acks staggered the same way.
Few acks (like now) at forward fields. Adding more & more acks, manned acks, & 88mm puffy flack as you get closer & closer to HQ.
Good idea
Originally posted by Ghosth
Last, put a 10k field next to the HQ. This should be the farthest field back.
All planes would be available here.
If a side is pushed back to that last ring of fields all planes would be free.
Good ideas
Originally posted by Ghosth
It would take some map work along with the setup variables.
I'm not sure it can be done with the current setup. HT might have to work for quite a while to get controls in place to make it possible.
So don't be discouraged if you don't see it next week!
It could be done with the current maps, but certainly would require some different programming… its all beyond me. I’d bet a nickel we don’t see it next week!
eskimo
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Sounds great to me. Only problem is the guys who have been screaming about not being able to fly La7s, P-51s, etc... will be screaming even louder.
Be great if people would fly more of the 'older' planes. would make for alot of fun-even fights. They are a blast but alas...
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Hmmmm…. From the standpoint of a P51D stick, my initial impression is….
I like it. Sounds simple, doesn’t really restrict that much, makes good points about the late war aircraft getting alt and E. Hell, the first line base may be under attack anyway so the flight time really wouldn’t be much more for me than it is now.
It would suck though on the maps, AKDesert, some “rear” fields are kind of far.
Sounds like a good idea to me.
Lets build it! :aok
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I think it would work if maps were designed around the concept.
Maybe not so well if shoehorned into existing maps.
Fester, care to take a shot at building this for us?
Hitech, interested in this at all?
Either as a pure test, or an alternative?
Eskimo, thanks for the constructive critique.
I do think it would take some balanceing to make work. And I think the current system will work well enough to satisfy most people.
Shane, yes the La7 was a front line fighter, mostly used down low, with higher 109's & 190's against it.
Against those 2 planes, its a fairly even match as a front line fighter.
However, in a Main type enviorment, its a whole nother ball game.
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Originally posted by Zippatuh
Hmmmm…. From the standpoint of a P51D stick, my initial impression is….
I like it. Sounds simple, doesn’t really restrict that much, makes good points about the late war aircraft getting alt and E. Hell, the first line base may be under attack anyway so the flight time really wouldn’t be much more for me than it is now.
It would suck though on the maps, AKDesert, some “rear” fields are kind of far.
Sounds like a good idea to me.
Lets build it! :aok
The way this system works it would adapt itself to any map. It adjusts itself every time a base is captured. The code would have to be written to recognize where the front line is and reassign plane availability at adjacent bases when a base is captured.
eskimo
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Worth a try. I have no qualms... I'm in the early rides most of the time anyway :)
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U]Another way to let newbies fly the hot planes would be to reset the perk points every tour, and give everyone the same starting perk point balance. Might take less programming effort. Newbies would lose their perks faster but the challenge to keep them longer and longer into each tour might be a goal for them. [/SIZE][/U]
A: newbies wopuldnt earn enough perks in a month to fly much more than f4u-c or 152
B:there are a lot of people that fly 2 hours a day and it might take them a couple weeks to get 200 perks..so in escence they have 1 262 to fly as long as they dont die, while this same person might accumulate his perks to the point of 1000 fiter points and then have a buffer so he can fly any plane and still be able to afford losing one or two.
C: Just another way of screwing with the game and i dont think the AH servers can handle much more BB traffic.
I'd rather see same system in place plus Everyone gets 3 free perk planes/month, this would really make for some creative missions and squad nights imagine: the MAW telling the JB's we are launching 15 262's to attack a certain field. Most newbies would lose their perks first time out but at least they get to fly em once a month[
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This would induce more Truce Warrior as the side being ganged up on would have to use weaker planes as they get vultched.
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Originally posted by DoKGonZo
This would induce more Truce Warrior as the side being ganged up on would have to use weaker planes as they get vultched.
The way it works, if a country is seriously outnumbered, they will be able to launch late war planes to defend themselves against attacks by mostly mid war planes. It incorporates the same balance concept that was incorporated in patch 8.
BTW; oops. I guess I started this thread in the wrong forum.
eskimo
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Originally posted by eskimo2
The way it works, if a country is seriously outnumbered, they will be able to launch late war planes to defend themselves against attacks by mostly mid war planes. It incorporates the same balance concept that was incorporated in patch 8.
BTW; oops. I guess I started this thread in the wrong forum.
eskimo
How can the host detect that with 3 nearly equal-strength sides 2 are ganging up on the 3rd?
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Originally posted by DoKGonZo
How can the host detect that with 3 nearly equal-strength sides 2 are ganging up on the 3rd?
It can't, only when one country has a lot more players than the others (as it works now).
I see now that you meant "ganged up" as two sides VS. one; that situation would be no different than it is now, except instead of late war vulching late war, you would have mostly mid war vulching mid war - no more of an advantage or disadvantage over the current system.
This is a real problem that has never been addressed (talked about much, but never even partially solved). I'd like to see some new ideas on 2:1.
eskimo
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OK, here’s an idea that would partially address the 2:1 problem:
* The “Front Line” is not treated like a front line (with plane type restrictions) unless an enemy aircraft is within 35 miles (or whatever distance proves best). This would mean that if one of your front line bases does not have an enemy aircraft within 35 miles, you may launch late war aircraft. A gang bang country players’ choice would then be:
A. Join the gang bang by flying a mid war plane from a front line base. (About 25 miles away)
B. Join the gang bang by flying a late war plane from a secondary front line base. (About 50 miles away)
C. Attack an undefended truce country’s base by flying a late war plane from a front line base. (About 25 miles away)
With this plan, it’s hard to imagine that bases of truce countries would be undefended, which would help the problem. It would do nothing to prevent the majority of players on truce counties from ganging on one, however.
eskimo
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There's really two isses with the whole balancing act. One issue is how to correct for when a gross imbalance is occuring. The idea of "front line" bases taking time/supply before they can handle latewar planes could work - or at least help. I'd add the exception that recapturing fields that were yours at the start of the reset should be exempt (in other words, have the system try to balance things back to the original borders).
As for detecting when this are off-skew, there are three datapoints which are actually available to build that decision calculation:
- Numbers of players per side
- Number of bases per side
- Number of enemy planes facing each side
That last one is the one we're missing now. Basically for every sector your country controls or has planes in, you add up the number of enemy planes in that sector - and then total it up. For instance, if the odds are 100:100:120, but the first two countries are using 75% of their planes against the 3rd, then the "numbers being faced" would look something like 85:85:150. That ratio is greatly different that the player odds, so something is imbalanced. Meaning even though the 3rd country has a slight edge, they are in fact outnumbered.
If you combine that last number with "bases held", a picture of which side is "losing" gets much easier to discern.
Note that this would also allow the host to detect a "blitz" situation. Take the "joint ops" case of 100:100:150 odds ... but the 3rd country decides to use 2/3 of their planes to attack the 1st in a "blitz", and the 2nd country holds even coverage. Counrty 1 has 3/4 of their planes in action against country 3 because of the blitz. In this case, the "players faced" number is 150:75:125.
Here again, it's easy to detect a gross imbalance. The host could then make adjustments in favor of country 1.
What those adjustments are ... well ... who knows?