Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: rpm on August 21, 2004, 05:07:03 AM
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Cops Disciplined for Tasering Grandmother (http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=817&ncid=757&e=10&u=/ap/20040820/ap_on_fe_st/tasered_grandmother)
KANSAS CITY, Mo. - Police said Friday two officers have been disciplined and department policy changed following an investigation into the officers use of a taser when arresting a 66-year-old grandmother who honked her car horn at a police cruiser.
Louise Jones was arrested in June on charges of misuse of a car horn on a city street, resisting arrest and intentionally inflicting bodily harm on an officer. Her husband, Fred Jones, 74, was also arrested and charged with interfering with an arrest.
Police said Louise Jones tussled with officers when they tried to give her a ticket for honking the horn. One of the officers used the taser, which is capable of issuing a 50,000-volt shock, to stun her. The officers said Fred Jones then came downstairs and jumped on one of the officers' backs.
Louise Jones said she pulled away from the police when one of the officers grabbed her arm, and her husband said one of the officers had his knee on his wife's chest.
As a result of an internal investigation, the department has increased the threshold for when taser use is appropriate.
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Aha! Is this what they call "freedom" - in a Police state? Wonder what our friend T will have to say about this. I think it was in his back yard.
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It was right across the state line in Missouri.
Here's what I have to say about it and it has no more to do with a "police state" than it would anywhere else when cops act outside their departments guidlines.
These cops were WAY out of line. That was clear from the very first reporting of the incident on the local news channels and the interviews with reputable witnesses.
The morning paper here notes that the department will not discuss what "discipline" the cops were given. It might be a $1 fine or a month off duty. They're not saying.
The cops were out of line. The department needs to detail what punishment was handed out. These guys should be shamed before the city and their fellow officers.
Police state? Hardly. Stupid cops is all.
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Beetle,
Make out of it what you wish. You can exagerate all you want and generalize an entire nation's policy based on a stupid action of a couple goverment employees. Just as valid as saying all Brits have bad teeth and are girlie men since they cannot be trusted with firearms. :rolleyes:
It is standard policy for a Department not to comment on disciplinary actions. It likely was a result of court actions earlier that cost the City / County / State when they made a public announcement of an internal personell matter.
These 2 were out of line on the taser, simple as that. At the same time the "granny" was out of line for making a public "fuss" or scene about a ticket. The adult thing would have been to accept the ticket then go fight it in court. Having been in a situation where an elderly person "went off their nut" over a traffic or other petty situation I can sympathise witht these officers. It's a lose lose situation and no matter what you do, you will be damned for it. It goes with the job and you can't let it get out of hand like this.
Stupid reaction on their part and it will cost them and their employers. Unfortunately we still have to draw Police Officers from the ranks of people with all their failings and foibles. Wouldn't it be nice if Police weren't people too? Oh I forgot, quite a few folks don't think they are anyhow.
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You have the freedom to resist arrest and assault police officers.
They have the freedom and duty to subdue you and arrest you.
I think the old couple are lucky they didn't get shot.
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The initial article. They went BACK to her home to ticket her for one toot of a horn.
They were stupid.
KC police investigate use of Taser on woman (http://www.kansascity.com/mld/kansascity/news/8940804.htm)
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They should have gunned her down. I'm sick of those darn horn misusers.
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Let me get this straight...Some old lady is laying on the horn to get Herb to hurry the **** up. Some cop gets tired of hearing it and writes her a $25 ticket. And she explodes and starts swinging her purse at them. They try to coral her and she continues to resist. While they are still trying to cuff her because she's lost her ****, Herb finally makes it down the stairs and jumps on one of their backs. At this point they lose their cool and taser her. An overreaction and two cops who should probably take a class in dealing with crazy old people.
Or do you think they just walked up and said, "Ma'am, here's your ticket and...." BBBZZZZZAAAAAAPPPPPPPP!!!!
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Sounds like Reno 911.
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You don't have it straight; read this report (http://www.kccall.com/News/2004/0618/Front_Page/001.html)
There was no needl to TASER this woman.
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They may have overreacted, but the old bat has zero sympathy from here. Now if only I could find a way to tazer unreasonable jerks over the phone, life would be good!
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Originally posted by beet1e
Aha! Is this what they call "freedom" - in a Police state? Wonder what our friend T will have to say about this. I think it was in his back yard.
If I were the sherrif they would lose thier badges. We dont need cowardly cops with teenage attitudes
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Relax, guys! I was fishing for a (http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/16/16_5_5.gif)
...but I hooked a (http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/15/15_12_10.gif)
FWIW, I was just telling Tomato yesterday how polite the American cops were when they stopped me (4 times in 2 years, at the time of the nanny-knows-best 55mph speed limit). Two of those cops were almost apologising for the inconvenience!
These two in KC were probably just a couple of bad apples. But FFS - if they're going to taser people, the over 60s should be exempt. I'm no cardiologist, but something tells me that Granny could have been killed - what if she had had a pacemaker fitted? If she had died, this would have been acutely embarrassing for law enforcement.
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Taking a newspaper report on an incident as gospel is a little bit gullible isnt it? Particularly if you push it to the people as the truth of a situation that neither you, me or they were present at in the first place.
Its not uncommon for Police depts to keep quiet on the disciplinary procedures handed out to its officers....If any was warranted at all.
You people werent there. Your commenting on a situation you know little about is another example of the public perception of Police Officers enforced and decreed in trial by media.
7, 17 or 70, Police Officers are nobodys punching bags. Maybe they did go over the top and maybe Granny deserved it and more. I doubt the newspaper "source" is telling it all. Police dont go around in general Tazering people for the hell of it. Even the stupid ones.
If it went down as they said it did, the old woman was pain in the proverbials and a healthy dose of OC probably wouldnt be amiss either LOL.
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My take on it is the officer that zapped her is "probably" a gung-ho Barney Fife newbie that sleeps with his gun and masterbates to the municipal code and city ordinance manuals.
The Tazer alone was bad enough, but did he have to shove his knee into her chest? Older people, especially women, are very susceptible to broken bones.
I may be mistaken, but are'nt they able to mail a traffic ticket, especially a non-moving violation? The department is wrong for not disclosing the punishment, it gives the appearance they are trying to hide something. This is a situation where honesty, openness and communication would be the better course to follow.
And for what it's worth, a few bad apples do not reflect the vast majority of good, well meaning peace officers and vice-versa.
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I live in Kansas City and trust me this is not the first time KC police have been under the fire for tasering people.
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Every police department has this kinda, stuff but the LA department has it really bad. They took away the Cop big Metal flash light and told them to buy big rubber ones.
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i bet it worked better than the wrinkle cream ;)
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I've seen some Grannys on COPS that could use a good tazering.
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You guys saw the newspapers. We here saw the TV inteviews as well. This is just an old Granny, not a 66 year old Ah-nuld.
Look..... it was honking a car horn fer pete's sake! It wasn't laying on the horn for 15 minutes either; it was just a couple of honks.
Remember, they left and CAME BACK to ticket her for a car horn incident.
Let me clue you..... there's A WHOLE LOT MORE BAD SHIP GOING ON IN KC THAN A CAR HORN HONKING!
If they were doing their job, they shoulda been patrolling for real crime instead of going back. This was all ego. She dared honk at the honkeys.
They shoulda warned her when they left the first time and DROPPED IT.
It's simply redickulouisness.
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Didn't the same thing happen in Police Academy 6?
I'm sure the 66 year old woman was an immediate and deadly threat to these young strapping police officers. And if they didn't deliver unto her the taz, she would have kicked there ****ing bejesus out of them.
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Originally posted by Toad
You guys saw the newspapers. We here saw the TV inteviews as well.
Ahhh the TV ! OH thats all right then
;)
I'm not defending these guys but I doubt there isnt a little more to this story than is being told ie; manipulated. If a particular area such as Kansas City has a history or percieved history of Police maltreatment then truth aside, its so much more sellable for the media hounds be they, Newspaper, TV or otherwise to put in a nasty twist. Lets face it. Bad news is good news to them.
Like I said, im not defending them. I wasnt there. But if at 66 years of age, that silly old bag hasnt got enough sense to play by the rules and keep her mouth shut to Police, im not defending her either.
My whole point in this discussion is dont believe everything you see or hear without knowing the "facts" first hand. Dont sit as Judge and jury unless you have all the evidence before you. I doubt thats the case here.
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TV allows you to see the Granny. She was a typical Granny; she's no martial arts expert.
Beyond that, here's an indisputable "fact": this whole incident stems from an old lady honking a car horn a few times.
Honking a car horn.
Yeah, THAT'S something that deserves the dedicated, unrelenting pursuit of our boys in blue. Let no man in the department rest until all car horn honkers are brought to justice.
How about they told her to knock off the car horn honking when cop cars are around, went and answered the second call and FORGOT ABOUT IT?
Cripes, what if she'd be shot resisting arrest on a car horn violation? What's next, shooting folks caught in the act of littering?
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I am sure granny and gramps do not have to worry about their tiny ss payment anymore :)
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Originally posted by Eagler
I am sure granny and gramps do not have to worry about their tiny ss payment anymore :)
I would hope that you are right and they get a mil.
To begin with they had no right to enter her home.
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I don't know about the rest of you, but most of the cops I know are pretty well built and I would say any cop(or a group of 3 or 4) that can't get granny on the ground without tasering her needs to find another job. It's not like she had a knife, gun, stick or even a rock, just an old lady.
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Could've been a previous or in progress domestic situation is why granny was upset to start with. Those are dangerous for police to become involved in, because Fred might've come out shooting after seeing his wife being roughed up. Especially if the husband had been drinking and pissed off beforehand.
Sounds like in retrospect it might've been better for a rookie (which these men probably were) to call the precinct sargeant before doing anything.
Then if he said to arrest granny, the responsibilty would rest on his shoulders.
I can see if the policemen weren't in their car, and might've been investigating something, then granny paid the consequences honking at them to move. If they were in their car and could've easily moved to unblock a driveway or something, that may be different, provided granny wasn't under investigation to that point. Sounds like poor timing to me.
But you never know. Granny might've speeded down the street and had a wreck under this hypothetical situation.
I thought the voltage could be adjusted on Tasers. They don't have to deliver full power, and I don't believe that was the case here. Otherwise granny would have dropped like a sack of potatos and might have died. How do you know it wasn't the best way to do things? Use a billy club to start out and then administer a choke hold after getting granny on the ground? Karate, Jujitsu, Aikido or Judo perhaps? Are the officers trained in this? Granny might have had a knife or pencil hidden away. Grappling is too close for comfort.
I'd have to say there's not enough information about events leading up to the tasering, to reach any conclusions.
Other than:
66 ain't all that old, and granny was in relatively good shape to take a tasering and keep on resisting...assuming she wasn't on PCP.
Les
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Was'nt she just sitting in the driveway honking the horn for slo-poke Fred? No radio call, right?
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Originally posted by Leslie
Could've been a previous or in progress domestic situation is why granny was upset to start with. Those are dangerous for police to become involved in, because Fred might've come out shooting after seeing his wife being roughed up. Especially if the husband had been drinking and pissed off beforehand.
Sounds like in retrospect it might've been better for a rookie (which these men probably were) to call the precinct sargeant before doing anything.
Then if he said to arrest granny, the responsibilty would rest on his shoulders.
I can see if the policemen weren't in their car, and might've been investigating something, then granny paid the consequences honking at them to move. If they were in their car and could've easily moved to unblock a driveway or something, that may be different, provided granny wasn't under investigation to that point. Sounds like poor timing to me.
But you never know. Granny might've speeded down the street and had a wreck under this hypothetical situation.
I thought the voltage could be adjusted on Tasers. They don't have to deliver full power, and I don't believe that was the case here. Otherwise granny would have dropped like a sack of potatos and might have died. How do you know it wasn't the best way to do things? Use a billy club to start out and then administer a choke hold after getting granny on the ground? Karate, Jujitsu, Aikido or Judo perhaps? Are the officers trained in this? Granny might have had a knife or pencil hidden away. Grappling is too close for comfort.
I'd have to say there's not enough information about events leading up to the tasering, to reach any conclusions.
Other than:
66 ain't all that old, and granny was in relatively good shape to take a tasering and keep on resisting...assuming she wasn't on PCP.
Les
What a crock. :rolleyes:
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In your case Beet1e, 66 is old.:D
Les
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Btw Beet1e, what was the crock part? You saying that and using the rolleyes is ambiguous. Please explain.
Les
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Originally posted by beet1e
What a crock. :rolleyes:
Im agreeing with the Beet oh my!
Leslie must not be to bright.
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I heard from inside sources that the cops are Democrats and the Elderly couple are Republicans....
Their Bumper sticker said
"Honk if you like GeeDub!"
:aok
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Originally posted by rpm371
Was'nt she just sitting in the driveway honking the horn for slo-poke Fred? No radio call, right?
That is entirely possible RPM, and if so then the police over reacted. I was only speculating on a possible hypothetical situation. I'm sure the police have been there and done that, so to speak. I certainly don't see anything wrong with calling in to get a second opinion, before doing something irreversible, as these officers took upon themselves to do. Once action or a commitment was taken, it was there.
There's a lot of misunderstanding in this world that turns small misunderstandings into serious problems. And that very well may have been what happened.
This world is not a perfect place. If it was, there would be no police or a need for them. I absolutely condemn police brutality in any way, shape or form. I find that stupid. Police are representatives of the state, and what they can and can't do are covered by the constitution.
............................. ............................. .
Beet1e, I was completely serious about my first post. And though I was perhaps wrong to attack you personally, it was good natured. I was trying to get your goat. I apologize for that.
X2Lee, I thank you for setting me straight, however I don't recall Beet1e saying I was stupid. He only said my post was a crock. You on the other hand added something to the discussion beyond your ken imo. I was interested in what Beet1e had to say, because I respect his opinion as well as yours.
Now excuse me while I get back to my usual pursuit of not being too bright.
Les
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Seems a whole lot of folks here been making judgements based on hearsay and a couple links of newspaper articles. Let the investigation and litigation continue. The results will likely be published later on.
The court is supposed to hear both sides of the situation before making a judgement. So far I have not seen but one side posted here. I'm not saying the situation was justified but I won't condemn or condone with only one side of the story.
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Well, at least no one got hurt.
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Originally posted by Drunky
Well, at least no one got hurt.
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Seems a whole lot of folks here been making judgements based on hearsay and a couple links of newspaper articles. Let the investigation and litigation continue.
The first sentence tells you it's not all hearsay:
KANSAS CITY, Mo. - Police said Friday two officers have been disciplined and department policy changed following an investigation into the officers use of a taser when arresting a 66-year-old grandmother who honked her car horn at a police cruiser.
Apparently someone in the investigation even thought they went to far if they disciplined them and changed department policy.
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Anyone ever see that Sanderson Farms chicken commercial? Maybe the Granny was injected with phosphates and chicken broth - "BAKAWWWW!!"
Well maybe..
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Originally posted by parker00
The first sentence tells you it's not all hearsay:
KANSAS CITY, Mo. - Police said Friday two officers have been disciplined and department policy changed following an investigation into the officers use of a taser when arresting a 66-year-old grandmother who honked her car horn at a police cruiser.
Apparently someone in the investigation even thought they went to far if they disciplined them and changed department policy.
Sorry mate. but are we reading the same first sentence? It tells me 2 fifths of sweet bugger all. Discipline in the Police as with any institution of its type takes many forms. Examples include suspension, counselling (ie, youve been a very bad boy today, dont do it again), monetary penalties etc etc. For all that sentence tells me, they may have been given a slap on the wrist for over exuberance but could still have been technically correct on their use of force given the "actual" incident. Which I might add, at no point in either this discussion or related media attachments explains to me exactly what happened and why.
Les's hypothetical scenerio could well be true for all any of us know. The Police dept isnt going to discuss a matter in depth down to the nitty gritty prior to a prosecution case being enacted.
It pays for Granny to arc up and claim to be the dischanted innocent victim, particularly in your country where the threat of civil litigation is a Police officers nightmare and probably does far more harm than good to yourself and the everyday population around you. The one thing every media outlet loves is a jolly good victim.
Then again, it may be completely correct and thats how it went down with no extenuating circumstances which warrant disciplinary action.
However, like OC spray, the Tazer is a tool which can be employed upon the Police Officer themselves in training, so they know its capabilities and limitations. It would be a completely stupid act if unwarranted. Police officers are also aware of the consequences of excessive use of force (not saying it doesnt happen anyway) All this leads me to be skeptical that this has occurred without some details being missed out.
As for Granny honking the horn. If its legislation and she broke it, they have every right to follow it up. I personally wouldnt unless Granny was being a right pain in the proverbials on top of committing an otherwise minor traffic offence, but they have a duty and they are within their rights to act upon it.
Next time you may be the unwarranted victim of a minor offence. Lets see how loud you scream, when the Police officers attending, turn around and say, No jobs to small.....except this one..goodbye. Generally the general public cry a waste of Police resources until they themselves are involved.
At least you know where you stand with the crims, its everyday joe and jane, the neighbourhood citizens that tend to get up my nose at the first hint of victimisation.
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Doesn't the use of force come with a "reasonable" attached?
Even then, doesn't it usually require that force to allso not be deadly, or occasioning grevious bodily harm unless the officer using that force genuinely fears for his or her own life, or the lives or safety of other nearby people?
I was taught it was OK to go up one level from that being applied to either yourself, or the third person victim you are assisting.
Surely no police officer with even the most mediocre training would whip out the old Tazer and give Granny a buzz unless the situation warranted such action in his/her belief.
Theres gotta be more to this story....there just has to be, surely power tripping morons get weeded out before the uniform is issued?
Granny had to be doing something we arent being told about.
Not saying I agree with assaulting old ladies with potentially lethal weapons is cool so long as you are a cop, just that unless the KC PD is completely incompetant in it's recruit/officer screening (which I very much doubt), the whole story smells like media hyping one side of a two sided story.
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Wait to make your judgements peoples. These horn honking grandma stories usually turn out she was on PCP. Let the police investigation and litigation continue. The results will likely be published by the department and be completely fair.
Remember, the court is supposed to hear both sides of the situation before making a judgement. I saw the Rodney King tape and thought it was a whole buncha cops wailing the **** out of a guy, but it turns out he was drinking alcohol and it's lucky a few cops laying their lives on the line everyday weren't killed. And that's why you always ignore the obvious and wait till it goes to court.