Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Midnight on August 21, 2004, 04:02:15 PM
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Why is it that the furball types are always so worried about the other pilot that might be flying "timidly".
We always hear from the fuballers that they don't care how the other guy flies and that they are not trying to control how other people play, but we also always hear them getting upset when the "timid" plane doesn't come down to mix it up with them so it can be shot down.
I say give it a rest. If your in a spinning, turning fight at tree level with 20 other planes and more coming every minute, what difference does it make if someone comes zooming through there at 300+ MPH? ---- Don't make excuses like it's too hard to track the guy who is diving through at those speeds from higher altitudes either, because I highly doubt your able to track all the planes in the fight your in either.
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Its more fun to bait that "timid" pilot into a turn fight and suck all of the E out of him along with his advantage and kill him rather than talk trash on open Ch.
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Originally posted by Midnight
Don't make excuses like it's too hard to track the guy who is diving through at those speeds from higher altitudes either, because I highly doubt your able to track all the planes in the fight your in either.
The timid ones that orbit above the fight are the easiest to track. They take a few of forms.
The one that dives through everyone and augers at the base below.
The one that does a feeble pass at one of the group and "extends"
The one that waits until a certain con has his hands full, swoops down at the right moment to pluck him and ...."zooms".
His countrymen did the work, he just takes what's offered.
The one that makes a few feeble passes gets sucked in and has his soggy butt handed to him.
Sounds real exciting to me but every one has there particular brand of fun.
In my case, flying to live and for score I did quite a bit of. Not here, somewhere else. It just got real boring. Almost tossed in my flight system because of it.
Aze holes and elbows knee deep overloaded in a fight is never boring.
But that's just me.
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You boys need to learn to fly something other than a spit9....
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I get in alot of fights where they have more alt than me and spend 5+ minutes in failed attmepts to bnz. Its boring until they get fed up and burn their E just enough that I can take their tail off:aok
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The funny thing about this, is that most of the veteran pilots also fly timid, when the situation requires them to do so.
Sure, they say how they never back away from a fight and how they can manage a so-called "BnZ" plane in angles fight.. except I've never seen them do that when the odds look bad.
So what usually happens is when they see a one vs one opportunity they'd bravely (and admirably) engage the enemy in an exciting battle. But when things start to look bad, they don't hesitate to run away.
They call it "SA" - except the unfortunate thing is when other, lesser pilots also use their own "SA" to run from a fight it's branded as cowardice.
I mean, for instance, I know I'm a sucky pilot. So what's a sucky pilot gotta do in a situation he feels that he cannot win? Should he stay around and get shot down, and offer the enemy a chance to gloat? Is that the "right way" of flying?
Or is this "SA" stuff something of a double standard?
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Another funny thing is, I've been around for years and have seen many types of people come and go. One thing I've learned is when people say "I want a fight", it usually, actually means "I want an easy fight so I can win in it hands down, and gloat about it".
Do people really want fights? In that case, there's always a fight. Usually in some other corner of the frontline there is always a place where it is vulched, or being pushed back by hordes of enemies.
Except, you never see "I hate timid flying" group of people near it. Near a really hard fight where good pilots are needed more than ever.
I ask for help, and they say they fly AH for fun, and there's no sense in trying to hold a line against bad odds.. how such "hordes of enemies" is "bullshi* gameplay"... and how they aren't gonna care about strats or war situation, and just wanna go have fun by themselves...
Oh well that's just fine and dandy.
But why not once in a while come by in a front where their skills are really needed? If they can always shoot down any enemy without flying timidly as they claim, then the more of them we have in those hard situations, the better chance we will have to hold the bad guys back - and at the same time, the sheer number of enemies would also mean more targets to shoot down!
But you know what, when they do sometimes come in those places, they don't hesitate to choose a "superplane", and they certainly don't fly angles fight with it. I mean, its only natural - what kind of a stupid would want to fight like that in such bad odds?
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Yup, that's what this is really about IMO. They want others to fly stupid, while they themselves want to fly smart. They want to knock down every "superplane" in the sky with their inferior planes, to show off their prowess - except, when the "superplanes" use its speed to run away, they don't like it. Hey dudes, nobody forced you guys to fly in your slowpoke mid-war fighter, remember?
So if most of the people don't fight the way they expect them to(which is, namely, the way which they are duped and get shot down) - they get upset, and start ranting on Ch200.
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Don't get me wrong. I personally hate BnZ.
I also heartily agree that ACM and E fights are more than just "Bore and Zooming".. and I also agree that a neophyte pilot who uses nothing but BnZ, will become a half-wit pilot who is decent in offense, but sucks in defense. And I also agree that such pilots will ultimately never see the true fun in A2A combat, and always will have to rely on a certain plane type to pull them out of tight situations. That's all true.
However, I also think that's the norm. I don't expect everyone else to become superpilots or even just good pilots. Like I myself am average, I expect most others will also be average. And average people, need all the edge they can get to survive. Its a means of survival - flying timidly, that is.
And personally if I'm not in a plane that can catch the timid runners - heck, nobody forced me to use a slower plane.
Like everything else in aircombat gaming, ultimately, its my poor choice of planes that allowed the timid flyer to run away. I could always have chosen the same superplane to drop them out of the sky, but I did not. I chose a more difficult plane to get more satisfaction in killing stuff. That should also mean that in certain situations, there would be things I cannot do in such a limited plane - perhaps the most common such situation being that I cannot catch a running La-7 in a lesser plane.
So it's basically all my fault - isn't it? Shouldn't that what a logical person think?
Ahhhhh.. indeed, no matter how much wise-cracks they spew, at the heart the 'veterans' aren't so logical people afterall. The unfortunate part of all this is that skill level does not always coincide with wisdom, or even basic manners.
They want others to fly more and more stupid, never use their speed advantage, and get shot down hopelessly in a battle they cannot win - while they themselves will do anything possible within their grasp, to survive.
Vulch, gangbang, altmonkeying, cherrypicking, spawncamping, running away, extending, endless climbing... you name it. I've never seen a "dirty trick" that a dweeby "n00b" does, that a veteran himself does not.
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I don't mean to drag this down into "hypocrisy" accusations. But I honestly believe that no matter how a pilot is good, he is still human. Everybody is.
So, if a certain good pilot has a high K/D and high chance of shooting others down, there's gotta be some more reason behind it. And I dare say that it is because they never fight a fight which they cannot win, or hope to win. In other words, in heart, every macho guy in town is just another sissy when it comes down to bad odds. First thing they do against bad odds, is figure out how to escape with their planes intact.
So in the end, who's calling who timid?
ps) Ofcourse, there are other types of skilled people, who literally don't back away from a fight. And ofcourse, in a sound sequence, they'd eventually get shot down.
All's well that ends well - if they can keep their mouths shut. But alas, they just can't stop commenting on how retarded others are, and how they would have killed everyone if it was a 1vs1.
Dudes.. this ain't the Medieval ages. You charge in like a lone head-strong knight into hordes of peasants armed with pikes - and it doesn't take a brain surgeon to figure out you'll get slaughtered in the end.
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Originally posted by Midnight
Why is it that the furball types are always so worried about the other pilot that might be flying "timidly".
I say give it a rest.
I say try the other shoe . Untill then do your own thing , ignore the taunters , leave it off the BBS.
Most furballers could care less what timid players do or think or the other way around I'm sure.
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Midnight - well posted. :aok
I have lots of stories I could share, eg. folks in uberplanes (with 3-4 buds nearby) demanding that I fight - my F4U against 2 Spits, LA5 + 262 for example - or the P51D who sat over the top of my G10 with an 8K alt advantage, demanding that I play with him.
Also, I've learned in this game that folks who are full of bravado on the BBS, behave quite differently in the game. (and they know who they are)
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Depends... there is a difference between what'd I say is cautious or prudent, and what is timid.
Yea, if I'm the only friendly in a sector full of red cons, I'm going to try to drag one guy out to kill at a time. That means getting within icon range of a couple, waiting till they start to chase me, then running till it is down to one guy. Then I'll engage.
If I have alt on any number of cons, I'll engage, and I typically stay engaged till they die, I die, or higher enemies come in to force me into dodging their passes and avoiding their lower friends zooming up. Then I'll leave, if I can.
What irritates me is just the stupid bull**** stuff. For instance, say I'm in a 190, got run down by an el gay or 3. Is there really any need for the 5 spits to dive in? For christ's sake, just the el gay by itself is more than enough to kill any 190, much less multiple ones. But folks aren't satisfied with 2v1, 3v1, 4v1.. they just keep piling in.
Another thing that really irritates me is the el gay that will "bounce" you, figure out you aren't AFK, then make half-hearted bore n zoom passes till he decides to run. So then he runs until you turn around, at which point he turns around and starts chasing you, but he won't actually fight. He just sits there making lazy bore n zoom passes waiting for his friends to show up.
I actually had one the other day do this boring **** for a good 10 minutes before he finally decided to give up. To his credit, he didn't actually dive to the deck and run, he just flew away. Then he PM's me and says "Sorry, you are just to much for me" or something like that. I'm in a 190a5, flying around all by myself (was actually looking for folks milkrunning the factory near this guys base). So about a minute later or so a P-38 and something else (a runstang I think) come charging in, then they zoom. Well, the runstang zooms, the P-38 would go clear out past icon range before he'd turn around. Eventually I get the runstang down to where it is almost a fight instead of him acting like a yo-yo, and guess who comes back into the "fight". Holy hell, the dip**** in the el gay! I mean, gimme a break, go ****ing land or something.
And yea, it isnt just the el gays that do timid **** like that, although the vast majority of the timid folk are in them these days. But there are a fair number of timid people flying around in run90s, typhs, and runstangs too.
I don't have a problem with people flying cautiously. Hell, I fly cautiously if I have the advantage vs a plane that'll kick my bellybutton once I lose the advantage. What I do have a problem with is flying so cautiously it is like you aren't even trying to kill the guy, just trying to run him out of gas or bore him to death.
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Ahh..but it is better to have lived and lost.
Then not to have lived at all.
KW you got the Beet put to shame with that wall o' text :D
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Ditto all that Urchin posted. Now put yourself in a P40 or a Zeke in that situation. :cool: I sit back and attempt to think... baffled. I just dont understand it. Recently it hasn't been a problem. More players are putting up some neat moves instead of the bank turn fire run repetition. When it does happen, it's like they fly unarmed.
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I fight to win, and if i have to be "timid" and B&Z then i will.
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Alright I see two separate interpretations of 'timid'. I went on about pilots that, even though they have a tremendous advantage (situational or mechanical), they choose not to engage or even run.
Midnight calling the BnZers 'timid' is a different situation altogether. Hell, if you engage, make a pass, that takes a minute amount of aggression.
Personally, I mix it up. Most often depends on my mood and the machine I'm in.
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Same here, Nilsen.
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Originally posted by Midnight
Why is it that the furball types are always so worried about the other pilot that might be flying "timidly".
We always hear from the fuballers that they don't care how the other guy flies and that they are not trying to control how other people play, but we also always hear them getting upset when the "timid" plane doesn't come down to mix it up with them so it can be shot down.
I say give it a rest. If your in a spinning, turning fight at tree level with 20 other planes and more coming every minute, what difference does it make if someone comes zooming through there at 300+ MPH? ---- Don't make excuses like it's too hard to track the guy who is diving through at those speeds from higher altitudes either, because I highly doubt your able to track all the planes in the fight your in either.
It depends on how you define timid. An altitude advantage and conserving energy isn’t necessarily timid. It depends on the pilot and the situation. A timid pilot will begin a dive and make no real attempt to press home his attack if it’s apparent the guy he is attacking has noticed him. He will then zoom as high as possible or extend a sector away and wait for you to ignore him only to repeat this process over and over. What I call bore and ZZZZ. He usually relies on longer range spray and pray gunnery to get a "kill".
Its simply boils down to the fact that the "timid" are no fun to play with. They are boring individuals and make the main tedious at best. They are a complete waste of time regardless if you kill them or not. They just aren't fun.
A typical timid flyer will dive in from space then "extend" a sector and a half away before he is comfortable doing anything else. After which he will wait until you are rtb or engaged by at least 5 other guys before he will make another "bore and ZZZZ" pass.
So timid flyers are boring. It's nothing to avoid 30 bore and ZZZZ passes. Practicing aerial strafing runs is hardly what I would call fun and wouldn’t waste my time with it.
Some people fly this game not only to "get kills" but to find the best "fight" as possible regardless of the outcome. Victory is always sweet but it’s the fight that gets the blood moving.
20 spits or 20 la7s is typically more fun to fight then 1 timid p51 pilot. It’s just too boring. At least the average spit / el gay 7 pilot will mix it up. Of course there are just as many timid el gay 7 pilots as there are anything else.
I hope you are picking up on the theme here. I will say it once more; timid flyers are boring.
Why pay 14.99 to fly like that? There's target drones that fly a wide circle off line. Seems to me it would be about as much fun as shooting down those.
Folks will call it like they see it. If a player only fights like that they should get thicker skin because some one will call them on it.
I am not going to argue with those who will come and say things like “I prefer smart flying” and “why should I T’n’B at tree top level”. That’s all just a lot of BS. They are other ways to fight besides simply "pull stick to belly” and” fly at 30k for some bore and ZZZZ”. If they are under the delusion that there is nothing else then they are in worse shape then I thought.
YMMV
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My only problem is the guys who do nothing but HO attacks. Earlier today, I was rammed by a Hurricane 2D, and about 15 minutes later, the same thing happened to me, but the guy was flying a Dora.
These were two different people, mind you, neither one of them attempted to shoot me. I had tried to turn away, but they wouldn't let up.
Head-on collisions without an attempt to shoot. That's a steaming pile of fun.
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Good post Wotan, my sentiments exactly. And props for not calling them wussies.
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There is a squad that flies in PAC time that define timid in my mind. Fly 190's 51's and F4u's around at 20K , never engage 1-1 , usually won't engage 2-1 , will only occasionally come down to cherry pick if the target is seriously involved with other cons.
I've been in a hog and come across 2 of them co-alt co-e (190 and f4U) - they both dived and ran for the nearest field ack - hilarious.
As a rough generalization there are basically 3 ways to fly , timid, tactically sensible, and reckless. I'm usually 2 or 3 but I just can't see the point of 1.
Someone needs to come up with one of those quizzes ;)
What sort of pilot are you ?
Q1. At the first sign of a lone enemy con flying Co-alt do you ....
A . Quickly pan through you views - oh oh , where's all my friends , damn where's the nearest field ack , I'm miles away, hmm this could be risky , dive dive dive ...wait ....... can I risk one quick HO before I go ... yeah why not....
B. Think , great a possibility of a fight , wonder what he's flying. How much E have I got , let's get some speed ....hope no-one turns up to spoil the fight... In In In
C. In In In ......
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Not all "furballers" feel the same way, but it depends on the situation. I know for myself and many of my squaddies, we get really frustrated when we are forced to fly over 4K and go after you guys hanging up there waiting to cherry-pick. :D ... Thing is, we (i'm speaking generally) acknowledge that the plane hanging up high is flying smart and we, if alone and in a BnZ airframe, would do the same thing IF we wanted to fly "smart". Our squad is famous for NOT flying "smart".. We fly to have fun.. period. Not wanting to die is realistic... no reason to hammer on someone that flys like it matters, thats the way it REALLY was!
Blah blah blah..
:aok
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Originally posted by Kweassa
The funny thing about this, is that most of the veteran pilots also fly timid, when the situation requires them to do so.
Sure, they say how they never back away from a fight and how they can manage a so-called "BnZ" plane in angles fight.. except I've never seen them do that when the odds look bad.
So what usually happens is when they see a one vs one opportunity they'd bravely (and admirably) engage the enemy in an exciting battle. But when things start to look bad, they don't hesitate to run away.
They call it "SA" - except the unfortunate thing is when other, lesser pilots also use their own "SA" to run from a fight it's branded as cowardice.
I mean, for instance, I know I'm a sucky pilot. So what's a sucky pilot gotta do in a situation he feels that he cannot win? Should he stay around and get shot down, and offer the enemy a chance to gloat? Is that the "right way" of flying?
Or is this "SA" stuff something of a double standard?
Considering you accused me of flying "timidly" in the Spit14 thread ... I'd say it's a double standard yes.
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I enjoy both "Air Quake" and "MA Survivor" styles of gameplay. However I have noticed that the Air Quakers are the only ones whining about different gameplay preferences. AH allows for many styles of fighting, if you enjoy furballing does it really matter whether you get killed by a 400 mph B&Z'er or a fellow furballer on your six? It's not like you're likely to survive anyhow.
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/245_1093142136_151200.jpg)
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Timid/BnZ whatever you like to call them, need furballers to BnZ, they cant BnZ each other. Furballers dont need BnZ's, being totally self-sufficient.
Put two BnZ's co-alt, and they cancel each other out unless they engage, i.e. become furballers.
So, to recap, BnZ's cant exist without Furballers but Furballers can exist without BnZ's. If we follow this to it's logical conclusion, if everyone became BnZ's then HTC would go bust and we'd all go off and play the Sims Livin Large.
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That is a fallacy. If what you say is true then WWII air combat would have been impossible. Everybody flew "timidly" in real life. You see ... they only had one life.
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I do whatever gives me the greatest chance of destoying an enemy aircraft without being destroyed myself. Sometime that's BnZ, sometimes it's TnB. depends totally on the plane match-ups and the situation.
Zazen
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Originally posted by GScholz
That is a fallacy. If what you say is true then WWII air combat would have been impossible. Everybody flew "timidly" in real life. You see ... they only had one life.
I think that is the point , a true simulation of air combat as it was would be incredibly boring. Hours and hours of flying around seeing no-one - and then a 3 second engagement where you live or die depending on who saw who first.
There are guys in the game who actually seem to enjoy simulating this experience , good luck to them.
Personally I never bother to taunt, whine or anything else on the radio channels when I come across these types, but it does bemuse me that they get their kicks that way.
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Whatever floats your boat. I enjoy pretty much everything aviation related. Flying to survive is more of a chess match, doing everything in your power to achieve any advantage you can get before merging with the enemy. If you encounter a like-minded pilot it can be great fun that lasts for many minutes before any shots are fired.
Other days I just Air Quake for a quick fix of dogfighting.
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Originally posted by Redd
Someone needs to come up with one of those quizzes ;)
What sort of pilot are you ?
Q1. At the first sign of a lone enemy con flying Co-alt do you ....
A . Quickly pan through you views - oh oh , where's all my friends , damn where's the nearest field ack , I'm miles away, hmm this could be risky , dive dive dive ...wait ....... can I risk one quick HO before I go ... yeah why not....
B. Think , great a possibility of a fight , wonder what he's flying. How much E have I got , let's get some speed ....hope no-one turns up to spoil the fight... In In In
C. In In In ......
B
Edit: However I do check around to see if he has any friends that might show up at a very inconvenient moment. And I always plan my escape just in case.
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One thing, don’t confuse what folks are saying. You can have fun any way you want. Just don’t expect other folks to share your view and be prepared for the comments that will inevitably follow.
One thing that has changed in AH is that folks take "mocking" and friendly exchanges of taunting personally. In past I remember only Karnak throwing a fit that some folks referred to spit pilots as "spit dweebs". Now say spit dweeb and 4 guys will run to the bbs with a thread entitled "Am I a dweeb for flying a spit?" Well the answer is of course you are, we all are.
It's getting to the point just calling some one an allied farm boi opportunist is enough to get a lawsuit slapped on you.
There is fun in the “hate” but if you can’t take it for what it is I would suggest that you turn off Opera and Dr. Phil and butch up a little.
I used to mock folks all the time; all in an attempt to get them to come back mad. Sometimes it worked, sometimes it didn’t. Now folks rush to the bbs "Mommy they picked on me".
So what if some one thinks you are timid or what ever, it’s up to you to find your fun. As I said above just get some thicker skin.
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Originally posted by Wotan
There is fun in the “hate” but if you can’t take it for what it is I would suggest that you turn off Opera and Dr. Phil and butch up a little.
I used to mock folks all the time; all in an attempt to get them to come back mad. Sometimes it worked, sometimes it didn’t. Now folks rush to the bbs "Mommy they picked on me".
So what if some one thinks you are timid or what ever, it’s up to you to find your fun. As I said above just get some thicker skin.
ding! ding! ding! and we have a weiner!!!
it helps if fragile-ego'd milquetoasts keep it all in context of "the game." i don't care if you're bill gates, stephen hawkings or the school janitor - if you suck in the game, i'll say so. i want you mad/embarrassed/motivated enough to get better. and if u ask nicely, i might even help.
:aok
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^ Did anybody else see the irony in that one?
Anyway, I like to mix it up. I prefer using a plane to it's advantages, such as BnZ with 190's, turn fighting with La's, and E fighting with 109's/Spits.
I can't stand the people who whine about "timid pilots" who won't turn fight all the time. I do, however, side with the anti-HO crowd, because I've been rammed 3 times by dweebs who didn't even attempt to shoot first :mad: .
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Originally posted by GScholz
That is a fallacy. If what you say is true then WWII air combat would have been impossible. Everybody flew "timidly" in real life. You see ... they only had one life.
The Me109 pilot Franz Stigler was shot down 17 times, and lived. Each of those 17 occurrences would have been a "death" in AH. But your point is still valid. :aok
Fruda said "I can't stand the people who whine about "timid pilots" who won't turn fight all the time."
I know what you mean. I have often used the F4U, but it's no turn fighter. It rolls very well, but it climbs like an old man going up stairs, accelerates poorly, not particularly fast in level flight... but it handles well at speed and is a great gun platform, and can do a good horizontal scissors. In short, it is tailor made for B&Z, which presupposes that you start out with at least some altitude. But no way would I descend to con height, slow down and start turnfiting N1K/SpitV etc. Hehe, I was occasionally whined at on Ch1. I don't tune Ch200.
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I feel a good pilot knows when to switch form B&Z to T&B then back again. There is a time for B&Z and a time for T&B in a single engagment, the trick is knowing before you have blown to much E. I've been playing this game for 2 years now and I'm just starting to understand that process but I still have a long way to go.
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Originally posted by beet1e
The Me109 pilot Franz Stigler was shot down 17 times, and lived. Each of those 17 occurrences would have been a "death" in AH. But your point is still valid. :aok
Actually not so. In AH they would have been either bails or ditches. IIRC Mr. Stigler ditched most of his shot up rides rather than hit the silk.
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Players who continually use generic terms like B-n-Z and T-n-B, as if they are the only 2 options available to them, really ought to hook up with a good trainer.
It’s clear that the reason for their timidity is they don't understand the variety of tactics available to them.
The F4U in AH will roll with an A5 and out turn it depending on the speed. It’s hardly an "un-maneuverable plane". It maybe against Japanese planes but against most other it has its advantages. It's a damn fine ac in AH, all variants. When flown by timid pilots especially against planes like the zeke it is just as lame as any other.
The only way to pick up new skills is to test yourself. You wont learn anything flying "smart" all the time.
One of the most aggressive moves any player can make is after a fast pass instead of running 25 miles or zooming into space is to simply Immelman.
Repositioning above your target at a moderate alt advantage allows you to be ready almost immediately for a follow up pass. Keeping the pressure on your target keeps him off balance. Long extended separations and climbs do nothing. They are easy to avoid and react to.
Being aggressive when you have the advantage is the key. Why extend 3k when 1k puts you right back in? Rapid quick maneuvers in the furball puts you at such an advantage that you in fact can become invisible in the midst of a battle while out numbered. No one is saying slow down to 150 mph and turn a tight black out circle.
Hans-Joachim Marseille claimed that in the perfect visual conditions over the desert (similar to the visibility in AH), large formations (or furballs) are in a visual disadvantage against highly maneuvering single aircraft. He preferred to fight alone, with a single wingman providing warnings from a safe distance. He claimed that when fighting alone in a short range dogfight, he could quickly fire at anything he saw, while the attacked formation's pilots were confused, hesitated, and switched to a defensive position that further increased the lone attacker's chances.
He deduced that over the desert, a fighter pilot can become "invisible" only by extreme maneuvers at close range, and that the intensity of the maneuvering was more important than the speed of flying. By "intensity of manuver" he doesn't mean fly recklessly but delibrately. Some one like Levi or Shane or Urchin can help you all understand what that means. Most of the time they just don't get lucky and end up on your 6 because you messed up. I doubt any of those guys are ever thinking "how can I run away from this" but rather "here's what comes next, they all die".
I don’t know how many times in events and the like or in the main my guys were out numbered badly. Over vox the question is, "What do you want to do? Live for ever?" Being aggressive and turning into the enemy we were able to set the tone of the fight without running and without having to climb to 60k. Fly how you want but there is more to fighting then what most of you describe. Being "timid" is not the smartest way or the best way or even the most fun way to fight. I tried it and it sucked :p
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Very well said Wotan.
If anyone wants to know what a timid pilot looks like, here's a film of one in action. It's really sad to see the P-38 being flown like this Rook flew it. Timid pilots should be forbidden from flying that plane.
Brave Sir Robin (http://www.hispanicvista.com/ahfilms/film23.ahf)
ack-ack
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I enjoy one thing in this game above all else. I suck at it but continually put my self back in there. It gets my juices flowing.
I had a sortie a couple of weeks back where it all came together. I only killed one but I was working the mob. Best sortie I have ever flown. I died. But what a blast handling the mob. If I could shoot, I could wittle them down..
Levi's the resident pro at what I enjoy.
Levi's Many (http://www.theblueknights.com/Files/many.ahf)
Note: Have three of his films up at the website.
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What I do is up an F6F... 75% or 50% fuel, and a drop tank. Fly to the nearest area of action, and jump into the first place with more enemies than friendlies.
Ive landed as many as 9 kills this way, and Ive also landed nose first in the water a bunch more times. But I always like to go into a big fight and just see how it turns out.
My favorite was in Bish-land a few days ago. I was fighting 2 guys by myself... Killed em both, then 4 more showed up. Somehow I managed to kill them all too with only a minor fuel leak. I would have made it home too, but got a disco.
Best fight of my life.
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One thing, don’t confuse what folks are saying. You can have fun any way you want. Just don’t expect other folks to share your view and be prepared for the comments that will inevitably follow.
I disagree. Banters, mischievous name-calling, "comments" and etc etc is all fine and dandy against somebody you know, or if it would end in a friendly or a indicating no real bad taste is intended.
However, judging by the growing level of hostility in such "comments" that came to pass during the last couple of years I'd say it becomes a routine harassment that people have to take, just because they can't fly like a vet or is not a superace. There's a reason why channel1 was shut off by HTC, and I'm growing to understand why.
In other words, keep your comments to yourself. This ain't the friendly "smallville", AH it used to be. It's a large arena bustling with people who have different ways of thinking. "Commenting" in such an arena is like "I hate the way you look" in Harlem. Don't stir up trouble when it is not needed.
One thing that has changed in AH is that folks take "mocking" and friendly exchanges of taunting personally. In past I remember only Karnak throwing a fit that some folks referred to spit pilots as "spit dweebs". Now say spit dweeb and 4 guys will run to the bbs with a thread entitled "Am I a dweeb for flying a spit?" Well the answer is of course you are, we all are.
I personally agree. But essentially its feeble and friendly idealism. The MA is not what it used to be and people need to realize that. "Mocking" really can hurt people's feelings. The arena we fly in is something vastly different from the place once chest-thumping worked - and people gotta realize that. Especially the veterans, who just can't seem to be able to keep their mouths shut.
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maybe we should just add AI pliots that fly from point A to point B and dont turn so the cherry pickers can have fun
why do they need people for that?
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Originally posted by Kweassa
I personally agree. But essentially its feeble and friendly idealism. The MA is not what it used to be and people need to realize that. "Mocking" really can hurt people's feelings. The arena we fly in is something vastly different from the place once chest-thumping worked - and people gotta realize that. Especially the veterans, who just can't seem to be able to keep their mouths shut.
So the request is "please stay quiet and proper while I try to get it together up here so I can attempt to terminate your virtual life from the safety of my B&Z perch"?
Because of the dynamics of the relationship in which we interact with other players, kill or be killed -- there is an intensity to this particular genre that will never go away, nor should it.
Some embrace, some move on. But every new generation goes through it.
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Veteran pilots most CERTAINLY do not fly "timidly". Let's take a look at what the word actually means, courtesy of Merriam-Webster...obvserve:
Main Entry: tim·id
Pronunciation: 'ti-m&d
Function: adjective
Etymology: Latin timidus, from timEre to fear
1 : lacking in courage or self-confidence
2 : lacking in boldness or determination
I don't think there's a veteran stick out there to which this definition applies. Yet because they've developed the patience of a saint and nerves of steel, choosing to wait for the opportune moment to engage their target and *gasp* SURVIVE, they are now considered cowards.
I dunno about any of you, but I play this game for the realism. And part of that realism means actually trying to return from my sorties. Judging by some of the replies in this thread and the way people fly in the MA, I'm positive I'm part of a very small minority. Oh well.
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Good man Polaris. If only there were more like you.
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Originally posted by Polaris
I dunno about any of you, but I play this game for the realism. And part of that realism means actually trying to return from my sorties.
so when you die, and i'm sure you do... in the name of "realism" you cancel your account and then open a new one?
:rolleyes:
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Originally posted by Shane
so when you die, and i'm sure you do... in the name of "realism" you cancel your account and then open a new one?
:rolleyes:
Im quite sure he didnt mean it to that extent ..
:rolleyes:
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ooooo... so there's some kind of "line" in terms of "realism?"
if he wanted to say he plays to survive, but he had to toss out "realism." others toss out "timidiity." and there's a "line" there too.
:aok
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Originally posted by Polaris
Yet because they've developed the patience of a saint and nerves of steel, choosing to wait for the opportune moment to engage their target and *gasp* SURVIVE, they are now considered cowards.
I've been around the block and I don't know any of them.
Introduce me.
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FEAR THE FURBALL!!! :p :p :p
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Originally posted by Shane
ooooo... so there's some kind of "line" in terms of "realism?"
Sure there is, dont we have a "line" of realism in the real world? There's only so much we can do until we "break" the barrier..
There's so many different applications of realism ;)
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Are you flying AH2 at all these days, WldThing? I haven't seen you around in ages.
-- Todd/Leviathn
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if you ask me then furballs are to BnZing as lager and a smoke is to health spa's in the mountains and eating only lentils.
you dont live as long but you enjoy the time you do live with the most possible intensity.
batfink
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Finally back flying AH. There's nothing like yanking and banking in a mob down low :)
I'd almost forgotten what good fun that is. I'm dying tons, but so what, I get a new plane every time.
It's a heckuva deal :)
Dan/Slack
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Originally posted by Guppy35
Finally back flying AH. There's nothing like yanking and banking in a mob down low :)
I'd almost forgotten what good fun that is. I'm dying tons, but so what, I get a new plane every time.
It's a heckuva deal :)
Dan/Slack
If you're dying that often, I need to know where, when, and what you're flying. My stats are in serious need of help.:D
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Originally posted by Xargos
I feel a good pilot knows when to switch form B&Z to T&B then back again. There is a time for B&Z and a time for T&B in a single engagment, the trick is knowing before you have blown to much E. I've been playing this game for 2 years now and I'm just starting to understand that process but I still have a long way to go.
That's the secret exactly, right there. Anyone relatively new to the game needs to really understand this. Understanding this principle will save you years of angst and frustration.
Zazen
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Originally posted by Icer
Not all "furballers" feel the same way, but it depends on the situation. I know for myself and many of my squaddies, we get really frustrated when we are forced to fly over 4K and go after you guys hanging up there waiting to cherry-pick. :D ... Thing is, we (i'm speaking generally) acknowledge that the plane hanging up high is flying smart and we, if alone and in a BnZ airframe, would do the same thing IF we wanted to fly "smart". Our squad is famous for NOT flying "smart".. We fly to have fun.. period. Not wanting to die is realistic... no reason to hammer on someone that flys like it matters, thats the way it REALLY was!
Blah blah blah..
:aok
Flying 'smart' is 'fun' to some people! ;)
Zazen
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Originally posted by Captain Virgil Hilts
If you're dying that often, I need to know where, when, and what you're flying. My stats are in serious need of help.:D
He's a +Nomad and can be easily found anywhere sheep gather.
ack-ack
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Originally posted by Icer
Our squad is famous for NOT flying "smart"..
...and you have the stats to prove it. :rofl
just kidding! :p I've winged with Slapshot & Mars01 and it was good. :cool:
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The opposite of "timid" is not "die a lot". As I said seek the help of a trainer.
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I always thought flying timid meant:
1) Not wanting to turn fight a spitV in a (pick anything fast does not turn well) when you have alt advantage.
2) Not comming down to fight a 1 on 5 when you have alt advantage.
;)
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Originally posted by dedalos
I always thought flying timid meant:
1) Not wanting to turn fight a spitV in a (pick anything fast does not turn well) when you have alt advantage.
2) Not comming down to fight a 1 on 5 when you have alt advantage.
;)
:lol:lol:lol:lol
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My definition of timid would be:
1) having similar planes, generally co-alt or the baddy with alt advantage, yet refusing to engage, i.e., run like H E double hockey sticks for base/(wait for)help.
2) Baddy has alt advantage, regardless of plane matchups, yet refusing to engage, i.e., run like H E double hockey sticks for base/(wait for) help.
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Originally posted by Shane
My definition of timid would be:
1) having similar planes, generally co-alt or the baddy with alt advantage, yet refusing to engage, i.e., run like H E double hockey sticks for base/(wait for)help.
2) Baddy has alt advantage, regardless of plane matchups, yet refusing to engage, i.e., run like H E double hockey sticks for base/(wait for) help.
I'd a add a 3rd - the most common I see
3) Has huge alt adv, enages in BNZ attacks/extend to 5 K /attack /extend to 5K/attack/extend to 5K/attack/ give up and run like H E double hockey sticks for base/(wait for) help.
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Originally posted by Dead Man Flying
Are you flying AH2 at all these days, WldThing? I haven't seen you around in ages.
-- Todd/Leviathn
Managing to get a sortie in every few days ;) I'll look for yas next time im up..
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I have a question: is there such a thing, though, as a "timid" furballer? Wonder what that would look like.
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Funny how it is only the non furball types crying here and making accusations.
The timid flyer doesn't fight and is afraid to die. They don't push the envelope of their skills or plane and are very boring to run into regardless if they are TnB or BnZ.
Many peopleonly fly a plane a certain way because they can't fly it any other way and probably rarely try to because they are affraid to die, if they were not afraid to die they would try different things. These guys are not timid they are just boring.
This is just a game. Personally, if I am not too tired and I feel up to the challenge, I will turnfight in a Corsair and many times I'll be surprised when I end up winning and get out with my hyde. For me it's the challenge.
The bottom line is this is a game and you can be a no risk taker always fly safe and never push a bad situation and puff your chest out about your score type or you can push the edge have some great fights and provide a lot of fun for not only yourself but the other guys you come up against. I would rather die then have people think, "man how boring it is to run into mars, he never fights."
I think Wotan et-al are on target too.
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Originally posted by dedalos
I always thought flying timid meant:
1) Not wanting to turn fight a spitV in a (pick anything fast does not turn well) when you have alt advantage.
2) Not comming down to fight a 1 on 5 when you have alt advantage.
;)
See the film I posted of what a timid pilot is.
ack-ack
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I fly my computer animated plane anyway I like anytime I want to. Sometime I grab a T&B and furball low and slow sometimes I grab a B&Z and cherry pick. Sometimes I load up bombs and blow stuff up. Heck I might even GV or Fluff if the mood soots me. If I make some virtual jock all pissy in the process all the better! After all who likes dry wheaties somebody has to pee in them might as well be me. :aok
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Originally posted by Shane
so when you die, and i'm sure you do... in the name of "realism" you cancel your account and then open a new one?
:rolleyes:
No, I keep my .40 cal pistol by my side when I play so that I can shoot myself to simulate a pilot wound. :rolleyes:
You're pathetic. Go troll somewhere else.
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Originally posted by GScholz
Good man Polaris. If only there were more like you.
Sir!
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I fly my computer animated plane anyway I like anytime I want to. Sometime I grab a T&B and furball low and slow sometimes I grab a B&Z and cherry pick. Sometimes I load up bombs and blow stuff up. Heck I might even GV or Fluff if the mood soots me. If I make some virtual jock all pissy in the process all the better! After all who likes dry wheaties somebody has to pee in them might as well be me.
Yeah but no matter what you up you fight regardless.:D
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Originally posted by Ack-Ack
Very well said Wotan.
If anyone wants to know what a timid pilot looks like, here's a film of one in action. It's really sad to see the P-38 being flown like this Rook flew it. Timid pilots should be forbidden from flying that plane.
Brave Sir Robin (http://www.hispanicvista.com/ahfilms/film23.ahf)
ack-ack
I can't believed I watched that whole film and you never got him! (but at least it gave me something to do while feeding the baby...no, not mine!)
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After awhile it was not so much as trying to get him but to see how high he would grab and how far he would run. Unfortunately though my crappy shooting made me blow the one chance I did have.
ack-ack
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LOL just watched that film Ack, I should look that guy up in rookland next time i'm on and slap him :D
Wotan I think you have hit the nail on the head (a couple times this thread). One does not have to choose to fly timidly or yank and bank and die. Successful and FUN flying lies in the middle, swaing to one side or the other as the situation dictates. The trick is you just have to see things unfolding before you and know where you have to be and how to get there. That unfortunately takes experince and a good bit of natural talent, but with enough hours (and deaths) it can be learned. But the fact is the only way you are ever going to learn is by getting yer butt kicked, getting down in the hole so bad that you have to make those rediculous deflection shots to live, and generally flying your arse off pushing it to the limit to get out without dying. If someone just zooms lazily around forever, they have no chance of learning. Ever. To me that kind of flying is ignorant and not narrow minded, and I hate ignorance.
I really think the key is to be as aggressive as you possibly can be. If you have a hole or a shot, TAKE IT. Don't wuss around and wait for the guy to be engaged and then try to cherry pick him. Get in there and kill him before your friends arrive. That drives them nuts and gets you a high kill tally. I love hearing other guys over local vox saying, "Another damn assist" while I'm racking them up because I get in there as hard as I can. I'm not saying go in full bore to the death, but if you can do something, why not do it? Taking chances is the spice of life in AH. Target drones are readilly available and free to shoot at for those not willing to make the leap. I can't tell you how many times in the last few days I've run into guys even in 1 on 1's who make a lazy ho attempt then just run in a shallow dive. If it ever occurred to them to pull a quick immelman and try to get above and behind me I might be beside myself with joy. Hell I might even just sit there, let em kill me and yell a quick WTG! over ch 200 to them for actually showing some skills.
Oh, btw Beetle, I've flown the hog a lot this camp, something feels better about her so I've logged some hours... you can ride the edge in that thing like crazy with the maneuvering flaps and still keep the E to get out when you have too. I think I had a ton of success in it because my opponent wasn't expecting me to do anything aggressive with it... and by then's it's to late for the chap :D
I wonder why he wouldn't think a hog can't get down and dirty...
What a ride tho! a BEAST!
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Originally posted by Stang
I wonder why he wouldn't think a hog can't get down and dirty...
What a ride tho! a BEAST!
Hey - Great! I look forward to seeing the films of these feats of derring-do! I see your k/d in the F4U-1D is 2.72. With a little more practice, you could soon get it up to 3.5 - almost as good as mine!
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Originally posted by beet1e
Hey - Great! I look forward to seeing the films of these feats of derring-do! I see your k/d in the F4U-1D is 2.72. With a little more practice, you could soon get it up to 3.5 - almost as good as mine!
You only wish you could fly the Hog like Stang does.
I came across an F4-U-1 ... low and slow on the water ... after fighting and chasing a wounded 109 back towards their CV.
The 109 headed for the CV deck and the F4-U started to zoom up to meet me. I said to myself ... "Self ... this is going to be quick".
Well what seemed to be like 5 minutes later ... after doing scissors, rolling scissor, vertical scissors, snapshots, stall fighting, I finally ended up dumping my Spit V into the water. This F4U used EVERY trick in the book ... flaps ... gear ... combination of both. I could not believe what his Hog was doing.
"You have been killed by Stang"
Not making excuses, but all I had was 303s and did get some awesome snapshots on Stang (wish I had some 20mms) but he would not stay still enough for me to get a concentrated stream on him.
By far, the best Hog flying I have ever seen and one of the best fights I have ever had ... the sweaty palm, heart-thumpin kind of fight.
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That unfortunately takes experince and a good bit of natural talent, but with enough hours (and deaths) it can be learned. But the fact is the only way you are ever going to learn is by getting yer butt kicked, getting down in the hole so bad that you have to make those rediculous deflection shots to live, and generally flying your arse off pushing it to the limit to get out without dying. If someone just zooms lazily around forever, they have no chance of learning. Ever.
This is SO true.
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I see your k/d in the F4U-1D is 2.72.
Beet, that's cause of a couple jabo hops in it where I kinda screwed the pooch a bit :D
Fighter hops alone my k/d in it is above 10.
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By far, the best Hog flying I have ever seen and one of the best fights I have ever had ... the sweaty palm, heart-thumpin kind of fight
LOL! What a fight that was bro! Definately the best stallfight I've been in since the coming of AH2... I seem to remember landing on the cv with 10+ holes in my wings, 4 in my cockpit and one huge crack running across the width of my canopy :D
Slappy!
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I wish i could fly like Stang does.... Especially in a Hellcat and P-40
As a side note the FM was changed a little in the F4U...it has better turn rate now than before and stalls not as harsh IMHO
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Beet, I'm not sure where you arrived at that k/d for me in the u1-D... I just looked, I have 61 kills and 5 deaths this camp in it. How is that a 2.72??
That's still includng a couple lame jabo hops
But still she is sweet... Wadke I noticed something different, didn't know what it was, she just felt better to me. I think that's probably what it is, definately doesn't snap roll during an accelerated stall like she used to.
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Originally posted by mars01
Funny how it is only the non furball types crying here and making accusations.
The timid flyer doesn't fight and is afraid to die. They don't push the envelope of their skills or plane and are very boring to run into regardless if they are TnB or BnZ.
Many peopleonly fly a plane a certain way because they can't fly it any other way and probably rarely try to because they are affraid to die, if they were not afraid to die they would try different things. These guys are not timid they are just boring.
This is just a game. Personally, if I am not too tired and I feel up to the challenge, I will turnfight in a Corsair and many times I'll be surprised when I end up winning and get out with my hyde. For me it's the challenge.
The bottom line is this is a game and you can be a no risk taker always fly safe and never push a bad situation and puff your chest out about your score type or you can push the edge have some great fights and provide a lot of fun for not only yourself but the other guys you come up against. I would rather die then have people think, "man how boring it is to run into mars, he never fights."
I think Wotan et-al are on target too.
You make it sound as though those who fly tactically, have only ever flown tactically, and can only fly tactically. This is not the case. Anyone who has been playing these games a long time has done it all, and can do it all. The way we choose to fly now is just the way we have found to be the most fun and rewarding personally.
I think it's dangerous to assume just because someone flies with self-preservation in mind they therefore cannot TnB/Furball/angles fight. Most people start the game ONLY TnB'ing/furballing/angles fighting, and only progress to the more patience intensive tactical approach after years of experience. I can't think of anyone who is in any way an even margianlly successfull E fighter who is not also very good at angles fighting. You simply have to understand angles fighting to properly energy fight. I can, however, think of many people who are fine at angles fighting, but lack the patience, discipline, SA, TA, and aim to be a successfull E fighter.
Zazen
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You make it sound as though those who fly tactically, have only ever flown tactically, and can only fly tactically. This is not the case. Anyone who has been playing these games a long time has done it all, and can do it all. The way we choose to fly now is just the way we have found to be the most fun and rewarding personally.
I think it's dangerous to assume just because someone flies with self-preservation in mind they therefore cannot TnB/Furball/angles fight. Most people start the game ONLY TnB'ing/furballing/angles fighting, and only progress to the more patience intensive tactical approach after years of experience. I can't think of anyone who is in any way an even margianlly successfull E fighter who is not also very good at angles fighting. You simply have to understand angles fighting to properly energy fight. I can, however, think of many people who are fine at angles fighting, but lack the patience, discipline, SA, TA, and aim to be a successfull E fighter.
No I dont.
"I think it's dangerous to assume just because someone flies with self-preservation in mind they therefore cannot TnB/Furball/angles fight." I never made that assumption you did.
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Originally posted by Zazen13
You make it sound as though those who fly tactically, have only ever flown tactically, and can only fly tactically. This is not the case. Anyone who has been playing these games a long time has done it all, and can do it all. The way we choose to fly now is just the way we have found to be the most fun and rewarding personally.
I think it's dangerous to assume just because someone flies with self-preservation in mind they therefore cannot TnB/Furball/angles fight. Most people start the game ONLY TnB'ing/furballing/angles fighting, and only progress to the more patience intensive tactical approach after years of experience. I can't think of anyone who is in any way an even margianlly successfull E fighter who is not also very good at angles fighting. You simply have to understand angles fighting to properly energy fight. I can, however, think of many people who are fine at angles fighting, but lack the patience, discipline, SA, TA, and aim to be a successfull E fighter.
Zazen
There is a lot of truth in what you say, but I would bet dollars to donuts that the majority of those that fly "tactically" couldn't find their arse with both hands when they find themselves faced with a "fight".
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just because someone flies with self-preservation in mind they therefore cannot TnB/Furball/angles fight.
You have it completely opposite. You presume just because someone likes to fight that they must "die a lot" or don’t fly with intention of surviving.
It’s that attitude that seems to prevail with those who are "overly concerned" with being shot down in the first place. Look at Beetles replies; every chance he gets he throws his "scores" out as if they mean anything.
No one said "if you don't fight my way you are timid or can't fight". I am beginning to think you didn't even read the thread.
I certainly haven't read where anyone said "Zazen because you fly to live you are timid". If you feel your style of play is the best fun you can have well have at it.
Midnight asked a question and folks are offering their opinion. Several definitions of timid have been offered, take your pick. If you don't feel you fit in with any of those definitions well good for. But that's not what this thread is about.
To the truly timid being shot down is threat to their "fun" and as such they fly overly cautious and are boring. It may not be boring to the guy being "timid" but he is to quite a few of us. As such some folks will be all to willing to let the guy know how boring he is. This puts us back on topic.
Timid flyers are boring. It's that simple.
FYI:
“E” fighting isn't just about high speed passes and long extensions and super zooms. When I flew the G-6 in AH I was usually on the deck “E” fighting.
Regards,
Wotan
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Originally posted by mars01
Yeah but no matter what you up you fight regardless.:D
Yep, Mars is right, thats the point. Fight, does not matter how as long as you do. BnZ me to death if you have too, as long as we get a fight out of it.
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Originally posted by SlapShot
There is a lot of truth in what you say, but I would bet dollars to donuts that the majority of those that fly "tactically" couldn't find their arse with both hands when they find themselves faced with a "fight".
What he said. I've been plaing for a couple of years now and the times I met the great 'tactical' pilots that know how to survive, I can count on less than one hand.
Lets see, Fester I met three times in two years ( got vaulched twice and the third he was hiding in the CV ack trying to get alt so he could come back and vaulch again). (Nothing personal Fest but those are the only times we met)
A certen other god of flying I met once when he dropped out of the sky to kill my already engaged bombers and then disappear.
Try getting in to a furball (even if you just BnZ or cherry pick) and come back with 8 kills and land like Slap, Levi, YUCCA, Mars, Morph, Steve and a ton of others I don't have time to list here, and then lets talk about tacktics, SA, and ACM.
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Originally posted by SlapShot
There is a lot of truth in what you say, but I would bet dollars to donuts that the majority of those that fly "tactically" couldn't find their arse with both hands when they find themselves faced with a "fight".
That's my point, that is not the case at all for the most part.
How many new, relatively skilless players, say to themselves, "Hmmm, I'm new I don't don't how to fiight, I think I'll get in a fast plane, grab some altitude, carefully and patiently weigh and subtely manipulate energy levels for kills"? No, 99% of new players get in something that turns well, they fixate on one bandit and try to stick to him like glue until they kill him, get killed by him or someone else. Naturally, that pattern leads to that person eventually getting better at angles fighting. Only from there can they successfully progress to energy fighting.
So, anyone who is a successfull energy fighter, has already become a successfull angles fighter and moved on. If they chose to they could easily hop into a Spit V and angles fight with great alacrity, they simply choose not to. Also, consider plane match-ups and the undisputed fact some planes lend themselves to angles fighting alot better than others. Taking an aircraft out of its designed context for the sake of amusing your adversary is just foolhardy. It's not cowardice that makes the Typhoon pilot decline an angles fight with a Spit V, it's common sense.
Zazen
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Originally posted by Zazen13
So, anyone who is a successfull energy fighter, has already become a successfull angles fighter and moved on. If they chose to they could easily hop into a Spit V and angles fight with great alacrity, they simply choose not to. .
Zazen
i have to disagree as this is patently wrong on so many levels.
i just don't feel like going into a dissertion as to why, atm.
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Originally posted by Shane
i have to disagree as this is patently wrong on so many levels.
i just don't feel like going into a dissertion as to why, atm.
lol Shane ;)
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I can think of at least one example of a very successful "energy fighter" that can't turnfight for beans. And that is just off the top of my head.
I don't nescesarily think the two skill-sets are mutually exculsive, but they are by no means inclusive. You don't need to angles fight if you fly a fast plane to "energy fight" with... you just need to run away. So that is what people do.
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So, anyone who is a successfull energy fighter, has already become a successfull angles fighter and moved on
I think I have to disagree with you here my friend... This was your personal experience, making the pregression from noob to great angles fighter to E fighter extraordinare :D However, most do not go through this process as you did. Again, I really think it comes down to natural talent and feel as to who becomes a poor, average or good stick. You have all the skills and can do whatever you wish w/ 99% of the MA, but for the average guy flying his la7 they have one option, run, cherry pick, run and run some more. I see this fact in the DA a lot... some guy (usually a very experinced vet) will challenge me and we go at it a couple runs, and I sware at merge they have no frikkin clue about what to do. Hell, just yanking the stick back to your chest and turning as tight as possible will make for a great fight, but 9 out of 10 guys I fight don't even do this. They seriously look like they have a "what do I do now?" look on their face (after all they can't ho me in the DA on merge :D ) Now, from an experienced vet, you wouldn't expect this, but it's truly the norm. Why? I don't know. Absolutely baffles me. Do I care? Not as long as they're easy kills :lol
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Zazen no one said anything about people that fight tactically, the ones that fight anyway - it's those that don't fight, that run as soon as they lost the advantage that don't try to out manuver there opponent, extend till they are out of Icon rang etc. These guys don't even turn back after you give them your six free and clear.
Taking an aircraft out of its designed context for the sake of amusing your adversary is just foolhardy. It's not cowardice that makes the Typhoon pilot decline an angles fight with a Spit V, it's common sense.
As for the above, well your missing out on a whole other side of this game. I love flying the unerdog match up, it really test the mettle. So what if I lose a few the ones I win are well worth it.
As for your noob progression - I'll give you my personal expieriance as a counter. I rushed in for about a month, got killed every time, so I climbed to the top of the pack where it was safe and Bore N Zoomed because that was easy. As I started to understand the complexity of stall and angle fighting I started succeeding there as well. I will fly one way then get bored and fly the other.
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Originally posted by Urchin
I can think of at least one example of a very successful "energy fighter" that can't turnfight for beans. And that is just off the top of my head.
I don't nescesarily think the two skill-sets are mutually exculsive, but they are by no means inclusive. You don't need to angles fight if you fly a fast plane to "energy fight" with... you just need to run away. So that is what people do.
Where do you get, Energy Fighting = Running away, from? Declining to get into an angles fight with a superior turning aircraft is the only situation I can conceive of that would call for 'running away'. But, that is nothing particular to Energy Fighting. You know this Urchin, I'm sure I do not have to type out the definition of energy fighting for you but I will for others' benifit.
Energy fighting is the execution of manuevers that seek to create a favorable disparity between you and your adversary's energy states that does not necessarily lead to an immediate gunnery solution, but instead puts you at such an energy advantage that a killing opportunities are inevitable.
Zazen
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Originally posted by Stang
I think I have to disagree with you here my friend... This was your personal experience, making the pregression from noob to great angles fighter to E fighter extraordinare :D However, most do not go through this process as you did. Again, I really think it comes down to natural talent and feel as to who becomes a poor, average or good stick. You have all the skills and can do whatever you wish w/ 99% of the MA, but for the average guy flying his la7 they have one option, run, cherry pick, run and run some more. I see this fact in the DA a lot... some guy (usually a very experinced vet) will challenge me and we go at it a couple runs, and I sware at merge they have no frikkin clue about what to do. Hell, just yanking the stick back to your chest and turning as tight as possible will make for a great fight, but 9 out of 10 guys I fight don't even do this. They seriously look like they have a "what do I do now?" look on their face (after all they can't ho me in the DA on merge :D ) Now, from an experienced vet, you wouldn't expect this, but it's truly the norm. Why? I don't know. Absolutely baffles me. Do I care? Not as long as they're easy kills :lol
I can't comment on the particulars of the habits of La7 pilots, as I have never and will never fly an La7. But, for the most part as I stated, true newbies do not have the patience, situational awareness, tactical awareness or aim to energy fight in the classical sense (energy fighting is not just BnZ'ing) with any efficiency.
I did alot of training in Airwarrior, almost without exception the only kind of fighting a newbie was interested in or was even aware of was yank n' bank turn fighting. It wasn't until they got tired of JUST doing that that they would come and seek to understand the nuances and intricacies of true energy fighting.
I didn't mean to imply that once you reach a certain level at angles fighting the next step in everyone's virtual flying career is to become an Energy fighting tactician. Obviously, some just continue to Angles fight and become ever more proficient at it. What I am implying is that the truly SUCCESSFULL energy fighters, not just ones that are vets who have simply played a long time, the ones that are very good at energy fighting, had to first cultivate a skill-set grounded in angles fighting.
I never said people who exclusively angles fight cannot become successfull energy fighters. What I am saying is, just because someone chooses to energy fight does not mean they cannot also angles fight proficiently, they simply choose not to unless a situation or plane match-up calls for it. Has nothing to due with one's testosterone levels, genital endowment, or bravery, it's simply a matter of executing tactics that adhere to the energy fighting methodology of air combat. That is not to say you can't switch gears mid-flight as I posted earlier in the thread, but simply if you do switch gears or meld the two tactics sets you have to have great timing and acute situational awareness to not have a negative outcome, espeically if you are in a fighter ill-suited to sustained turn-fighting.
Zazen
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Originally posted by mars01
As for your noob progression - I'll give you my personal expieriance as a counter. I rushed in for about a month, got killed every time, so I climbed to the top of the pack where it was safe and Bore N Zoomed because that was easy. As I started to understand the complexity of stall and angle fighting I started succeeding there as well. I will fly one way then get bored and fly the other.
You first learned to angles fight...as I have stated 99% do.
Energy fighting is not just Boom and Zoom. That is like saying angles fighting is just a flat break turn in a merry-go-round circle. A gross generalization and oversimplification that relegates a whole method of flying to one basic manuever, it's just not accurate.
Zazen
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Well I'm about average if that when it comes to flying but I do think I've learned something when it comes to some of this. I started out flying the typical "dweeb plane" as some would say in the Mk IX. I got fairly decent at flying it.
When I switched over to the Mustang about 2 months ago I had alot of problems learning how to setup and control my E state especially on turners. What I did learn though is that I can mix both the BnZ and the TnB in one engagement. Again I'm not that great but even though I'm in a Mustang I have touched base with my old Mk IX flying and introduced some of what I learned there to the Mustang. I found it actually helped knowing how to TnB before knowing how to BnZ. Granted it may just be me but I think learning angles first then going to BnZ would help alot.
Once you've learned the angles side of fighting you can start implementing that knowledge into a fairly lethal Tnb/BnZ package. This ofcourse is only if you know your limits in the BnZ bird and try to fly it to the edge of those limits in both speed and turning capabilities.
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In all fairness to the posters on this thread, most only see the 2 styles of fighting, angles/stall fighting and Boom and zoom fighting, and most think Energy fighting is the same thing as Boom and Zoom fighting. bu that is not the case.
as for your thought Zazen of most leanr angles first, I would counter with the new people that want to figure out how a certian plane out maneuvered them will want to learn angles first while the other new guy that is as ya'll put it "timid" or scared to get shot down goes the route of BnZing.
My opinion of a successful E Fighter Pile it, is you actually need a good understanding of both angles/stall fighting, Boom and Zoom fighting style, SA and knowledge of a multitude of Maneuvers and the understanding of why the maneuvers work for each given situation.
Let me add to this that the E fighter pilot has studied his plane and all of the planes he flys against, he knows how to work his strong points while making the enemy fly to his enemy's weaknesses, he also has a good eye for reeling in a big fish and hooking him
You will always see crap loads of boom and zoom type fighters that don't even know what they are doing, example by mars they extend beyond dot range, never reverse, never grab alt after there 1st or second pass they just run.you will see lots of angles fighters that are 1 maneuver wonders too.they may have a good reverse but if they blow it, they are lost.
There is very few true "E" fighters in Aces High that know what they are doing, and it is becoming a lost art. Unless the older veteran type players pass it on to the new kids on the runway!
one more thing, to fight in the Energy fighter mode does not mean come in with loads of alt, you can be the low man in the fight but still have the E advantage, and it does not mean zoom your opponent and grab alt and play cherry picker..........
just another view of it all.........:cool:
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I think saying that most people "learn" angles first is a stretch. People yank the stick and turnfight as a matter of instinct. Whether they actually learn anything other than dying fast is another matter. It seems to me that after frustration mounts over dying early and often with little to show for it, players arrive at a crossroads. Most just quit. The rest learn either angles fighting, energy fighting, or some combination of the two; mostly which one depends on their peers, the available training, and personality factors.
I think it's a mistake to see this sort of thing as a progression.
-- Todd/Leviathn
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Yep DeadMan, I believe I started my reply at the cross roads part you refered to.....
I still view it as 3 types of fighting style though,
easiest - Boom and zoom fighting
then - angles/stall fighting
then- energy Fighting
but we all have our opinions
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There are different types of energy fighting. Only a few planes can actually do what I consider "pure" energy fighting, in which you enter an engagement co-E with an opponent, then build up an energy advantage over the course of a fight. Of course, you then convert that energy advantage into a lethal positional (or angular) advantage, so perhaps my "pure" energy fighting isn't so pure after all. Some planes that are well suited to this style of fighting are the Spit 9, Spit 14, 109( depending on what its facing), La7, Tempest.. thats all I can think of off the top of my head. The most important attribute necesary for this style of fighting is acceleration. Climb rate helps to, especially if you can climb slowly at a steep angle.
A more common form of "energy fighting" is 'Boom and Zoom'. It is not necesary for a plane to have great (or even good) acceleration to utilize this approach. The 'boom and zoom' pilot will approach his opponent from a greater altitude, and preferably a greater speed. He will utilize this speed and altitude advantage to make passes on the enemy airplane. After each pass the "boom and zoomer" will climb back to the heavens to set up for his next aerial strafing run. Attributes helpful to this style of fighting include top speed and firepower. Planes that are good for "boom and zoom" include the Typhoon, P-51, 190, and P-47.
Depending on the situation, planes that I haven't named can find themselves in an ideal position to utilize one of these forms of energy fighting. For example, an A6M2 fighting a P-40B can use its superior acceleration and low speed handling to dominate the fight, without any chance of a nasty surprise as one might get purely fighting an angles game. Similarly, an F6F that finds a lone A6M will more than likely start 'boom and zooming', taking advantage of its higher top speed to set up above the enemy.
A third "school" is Bore n Zoooom. This is the most common form of energy fighting found in the MA. Tactics include making half-ass wobbly passes, firing at 800 yards and breaking off, and orbiting over the head of a lone con while screaming for help on all available channels.
By the way.. for you Bore n Zoooom folks... flying your plane "to the edge" does not mean ecking out every last foot of altitude on every zoom.
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Originally posted by Cobra412
Well I'm about average if that when it comes to flying but I do think I've learned something when it comes to some of this. I started out flying the typical "dweeb plane" as some would say in the Mk IX. I got fairly decent at flying it.
When I switched over to the Mustang about 2 months ago I had alot of problems learning how to setup and control my E state especially on turners. What I did learn though is that I can mix both the BnZ and the TnB in one engagement. Again I'm not that great but even though I'm in a Mustang I have touched base with my old Mk IX flying and introduced some of what I learned there to the Mustang. I found it actually helped knowing how to TnB before knowing how to BnZ. Granted it may just be me but I think learning angles first then going to BnZ would help alot.
Once you've learned the angles side of fighting you can start implementing that knowledge into a fairly lethal Tnb/BnZ package. This ofcourse is only if you know your limits in the BnZ bird and try to fly it to the edge of those limits in both speed and turning capabilities.
Precisely the point I'm making, thank-you for the personal illustration.
Zazen
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Originally posted by TequilaChaser
Yep DeadMan, I believe I started my reply at the cross roads part you refered to.....
I still view it as 3 types of fighting style though,
easiest - Boom and zoom fighting
then - angles/stall fighting
then- energy Fighting
but we all have our opinions
Yup. I angles fight, I energy fight, and I do both at the same time. As far as I'm concerned pure angles fighting is very much like an arcade game, you stay at your best corner speed, apply flaps if applicable, work the ACM's for snapshot angles and voila, that's it. Not a whole lot to concern yourself with, there's you, there's your adversary, simply work him for a gunnery solution before he does the same to you and you win. I'm not saying it doesn't take skill, I know better, I'm just saying it doesn't take a whole lot of thinking, forethought, expansive awareness or tactical analysis.
Energy fighting properly (not just BnZ), on the other hand, requires a far more diverse set of skills, especially mental skills. You must have situational awareness that spans the entire arena down to your gun range at all times. You must have precise tactical awareness, by this I mean knowledge of all enemy and friendly plane's E/alt states, vectors and likely intentions within your visual range and even beyond to local dot dar range. You must have patience, discipline, good aim and a very good grasp of ACM's, especially some of the more complex ACM's that are not as immediately obvious as are those most often employed in strictly angle's fighting scenario's where the goal is to simply cut the corner, ride the edge of a stall and get lead for a snap-shot or tracking shot.
Then there's the combination of the two. I think everyone does both to some extent, except possibly the cariacturized versions of energy fighters that ONLY BnZ Urchin spoke of (they are undoubtedly more annoying than effective). My rule of thumb when to switch gears, personally, is whether I have a sustained turn-rate advantage over my adversary and whether I am likely to conclude the fight before he gets help. If I'm in a pony, for example, I'll turn with anything but the pure angles fighters in a heartbeat. In a Typhoon however, there's only a small number of planes I'll go to angles with in most situations (Jugs, La7s & 190s for example).
Yes, I'll try to gain seperation from the other planes with a turnrate advantage, but don't confuse keeping an enemy at arms length to negate his superior turn performance with running. Maintaining vertical and/or lateral distance and flight-path seperation is a crucial consideration in almost any air combat action and is a principle consideration with regard to almost any air combat manuever. Anyone who says otherwise has no clue wtf they are talking about.
Zazen
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Originally posted by Urchin
A third "school" is Bore n Zoooom. This is the most common form of energy fighting found in the MA. Tactics include making half-ass wobbly passes, firing at 800 yards and breaking off, and orbiting over the head of a lone con while screaming for help on all available channels.
By the way.. for you Bore n Zoooom folks... flying your plane "to the edge" does not mean ecking out every last foot of altitude on every zoom.
And that is the best description of the Timid Pilot.
ack-ack
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Originally posted by Zazen13
Yup. I angles fight, I energy fight, and I do both at the same time. As far as I'm concerned pure angles fighting is very much like an arcade game, you stay at your best corner speed, apply flaps if applicable, work the ACM's for snapshot angles and voila, that's it. Not a whole lot to concern yourself with, there's you, there's your adversary, simply work him for a gunnery solution before he does the same to you and you win. I'm not saying it doesn't take skill, I know better, I'm just saying it doesn't take a whole lot of thinking, forethought, expansive awareness or tactical analysis.
Energy fighting properly (not just BnZ), on the other hand, requires a far more diverse set of skills, especially mental skills. You must have situational awareness that spans the entire arena down to your gun range at all times. You must have precise tactical awareness, by this I mean knowledge of all enemy and friendly plane's E/alt states, vectors and likely intentions within your visual range and even beyond to local dot dar range. You must have patience, discipline, good aim and a very good grasp of ACM's, especially some of the more complex ACM's that are not as immediately obvious as are those most often employed in strictly angle's fighting scenario's where the goal is to simply cut the corner, ride the edge of a stall and get lead for a snap-shot or tracking shot.
Zazen
To say that Energy fighting requires "far more diverse set of skills, especially mental skills" and Angles fighting does not, is a load of crap.
To be successful in any situation both styles require the same 'mental skills' as you put it. And to say that SA isn't as important in an Angles fight again is sheer folly. If anything, SA is far more important in an Angles fight than in Energy fight situation, especially in a furball. A pilot that is a pure E fighter can get away with momentary lapses of SA, where as an Angles fighter, a momentary lapse of SA will usually result in their death.
And your assertion that 99% of the "E fighters" were former Angles fighters that grew bored has no merit since you do not have any numbers to back it up. Just because you get a couple of pilots agreeing with you does not make it a fact. I'd venture to say that the majority of veteran pilots that like to Angles fight were former E fighters that grew bored and wanted more of a challenge. It was the case with me. My first year of playing online flight sims was spent in the FW190-A8 before switching over to the P-38.
ack-ack
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Originally posted by Ack-Ack
To say that Energy fighting requires "far more diverse set of skills, especially mental skills" and Angles fighting does not, is a load of crap.
To be successful in any situation both styles require the same 'mental skills' as you put it. And to say that SA isn't as important in an Angles fight again is sheer folly. If anything, SA is far more important in an Angles fight than in Energy fight situation, especially in a furball. A pilot that is a pure E fighter can get away with momentary lapses of SA, where as an Angles fighter, a momentary lapse of SA will usually result in their death.
ack-ack
Total hogwash, if you screw up your SA/TA in an E fighter you're dead, if you cannot get seperation you are dead, period. If you screw up your SA/TA in an angles fighter you can, if you're any good, use your superior turnrate to stay defensive for long periods and perhaps prevail. You have to be ALOT more carefull in a plane that manuevers poorly. While an E fighter may be faster, ANYTHING higher than you can be faster than you plenty long enough to kill you. Whereas in an angles fighter if you have superior turn performance you will maintain that superioity regardless of the number, altitude, location or plurality of your opposition.
Superior manueverability not speed is the ultimate DEFENSIVE weapon in air combat. Speed is the ultimate OFFENSIVE weapon in air combat. Speed is relative, turnrate is absolute.
For example, A Tyhpoon is faster than a Spit right? Put that spit 5k above the Typhoon near the ground, who has the potential to be faster now? The Typhoon has lost his only advantage so can neither out-run nor out-manuever the Spit.
Ok, now take the same Typhoon and Spit, the Spit easily outturns the Typhoon right ? Can you think of any situation where the Typhoon could potentially outturn the Spit? Nope, there is none, the Typhoon cannot take away the Spitfire's advantage in any hypothetical situation.
The Spit has an absolute advantage, the Typhoon only a relative and conditional advantage. This subtle, underlying, truth about the dichotomous enigma of angles vs. energy has enormous ramifications on tactics.
Angles fighters are for more forgiving of mistakes, especially mental ones involving SA and TA. You make an error in energy estimation in an E fighter and you're history, you have no recourse once you are at an energy disadvantage against an opponent with superior manueverability. You make that same error in an angles fighter and you just pull some G's, spoil his shot and work the angles back to neutral or for an advantage and a guns solution. An angles fighter never loses his intrinsic manueverability advantage, an energy fighter can lose its speed advantage very easily.
Zazen
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Originally posted by Zazen13 The Spit has an absolute advantage, the Typhoon only a relative and conditional advantage. This subtle, underlying, truth about the dichotomous enigma of angles vs. energy has enormous ramifications on tactics.
With both planes at high speed, a Typhoon will cut an amazing instant turn compared to the Spit. If that allows it to force a headon shot, it already has twice as much chance of scoring a kill. The Typhoon also accelerates better than the Spit.
So no, the Spit does not enjoy an absolute advantage.
-- Todd/Leviathn
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You first learned to angles fight...as I have stated 99% do.
Hmm I just told you how it was for me, then you turn around and tell me how I learned this game. I am starting to think Beetle is one of Zazens shade accounts.
I started Bore and Zooming pal. Climb high look for a easy kill cherry pick, dive down on top of him real fast and kill him, then zoom climb back up. I tried to jump into the furballs but it was useless. I didn't learn anything about angles or stall fighting by doing that so I stoped and played from a perch. Typical though that you would sit there and tell me how I learned the game.
Once again, to you guys that keep saying E fighting is not timid. NO ONE SAID E-FIGHTING WAS TIMID. NOT FIGHTING IS TIMID.
I could care less what kind of fighting you are doing as long as you are engaging and fighting. You guys that are trying to turn this into a Stall fight Vs Efight are in the wrong thread.:aok
With both planes at high speed, a Typhoon will cut an amazing instant turn compared to the Spit. If that allows it to force a headon shot, it already has twice as much chance of scoring a kill. The Typhoon also accelerates better than the Spit.
Exactly Lev, same thing is true for a 51, but he would never try to match the two up because he has the blinders on (see quote below)
Originally Posted by: ZazenTaking an aircraft out of its designed context for the sake of amusing your adversary is just foolhardy. It's not cowardice that makes the Typhoon pilot decline an angles fight with a Spit V, it's common sense.
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Originally posted by Zazen13
For example, A Tyhpoon is faster than a Spit right? Put that spit 5k above the Typhoon near the ground, who has the potential to be faster now? The Typhoon has lost his only advantage so can neither out-run nor out-manuever the Spit.
Ok, now take the same Typhoon and Spit, the Spit easily outturns the Typhoon right ? Can you think of any situation where the Typhoon could potentially outturn the Spit? Nope, there is none, the Typhoon cannot take away the Spitfire's advantage in any hypothetical situation.
Angles fighters are for more forgiving of mistakes, especially mental ones involving SA and TA. You make an error in energy estimation in an E fighter and you're history, you have no recourse once you are at an energy disadvantage against an opponent with superior manueverability. You make that same error in an angles fighter and you just pull some G's, spoil his shot and work the angles back to neutral or for an advantage and a guns solution. An angles fighter never loses his intrinsic manueverability advantage, an energy fighter can lose its speed advantage very easily.
Zazen
I basically only want to address two points here. First, yes, I can think of a situation where the Typhoon will "out-turn" the Spit. That situation would be any nose-to-nose turn where the Spitfire is moving substantially faster than the Typhoon. Furthermore, if the Spitfire dives on your Typhoon, and you break so as to cause a nose-to-nose condition after the initial "merge" (i.e. he dives, overshoots, and turns into you while you are turning back into him), and the Typhoon does not beat the Spitfire around, you know it is now safe to run because his temporary speed advantage is all gone.
Second point I'd like to address- "Boom and Zooming" is inherently safer than angles fighting. A misjudgement in the opponents energy state while Boom and Zooming is not likely to be disasterous unless you have very poor judgement indeed. Typically, the only judgement you need to make before "boom and zooming" any number of enemies is "Am I higher, and am I faster?" What I call "pure" energy fighting is probably the most risky, because you are actually engaging in a fight with the enemy trying to bleed his energy down actively. If you make a small misjudgement of his energy state, you die.
That is one case where a Typhoon pilot that knows how to angles fight will easily escape, while one that does not will likely just try to floppy fish his way out of trouble.
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I am starting to think Beetle is one of Zazens shade accounts.
I think your on to something here ... :D
Urching and TC have described perfectly the "timid" pilot.
Most guys that "E" fight, and there are very few of them, are not timid by any strech on one's imagination.
Excellent E fighters that I have run into :
JBs - especially JB42
Steve
DmdDano
Urchin
ManeTMP
Kappa
Just a couple of weeks ago I ran across, I believe, a 190 co-alt and I was in a Spit V. He showed me his 6 and I decided to chase for a little while, not expecting him to turn and fight, but hoping.
Well at about 1.5 out, the 190 turns back into me. I figured, 1 pass and if he doesn't kill me on the HO, he will then bug out ... very typical of a 190. Well, there is no HO attempt at the merge ... hmmmm. I look behind expecting to see the 190 to fly the straight line to freedom. Well, this 190 didn't fly straight, it had already reversed and was back at me. Whoa !!!
At this point, the fight was on, and I had all I could do defensivly to keep this 190 from getting a guns solution on me. I finally got myself into an offensive position and got a real nice snapshot on the 190 and got an oil hit. At that point, 190 dove out of the fight and with its superior speed left the area (this is not considered running in my book).
The man behind that stick was Urchin. I had a blast. Following him then lead to another excellent fight with Stang in an F4-U-1. Two unbelievable fights in one sortie ... true nirvana.
If everybody who flys the 190 or "E" style planes, would fly it, or try to fly it, like Urchin, the fights and fun would be off the hook. "E" fighters, if flown right, can whip the snot out of most Spit flyers.
Getting better at any of these "disciplines" requires, I would believe, one to die alot ... you can only truely learn by your mistakes and mistakes in this game means death.
If you are realitivly new at this game and are AFRAID to die, then you will inevitable turn into a Bore-N-Zoom pilot.
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Just a quick post, i have to go to work in 5 mins.
I have to agree with slapshot. Unless you voluntry get into bad situations you will never gain the necessary experience get out of them should it arise. I don't usually have much trouble dealing with high spits. They bleed veyr little E, causing them to overshoot very easily.
I enjoy E fighting, but i also like to mix it up. Often it's not by choice as the mossie doesn't have the acceleration, climb or level speed to avoid it. For me aggression is the key to a lot of victories, most cons just do not expect it.
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You would be wise to listen to Levi and Urchin.
You may not care to fly any other way that what is comfortable to you. But using absolutes to describe certain planes and styles just shows that you have a lot to learn. Which is fine as we all do, especially me.
"Furballing" doesn’t equal dying a lot. That seems to be that attitude of a lot of folks. You can furball and fly to live at the same time. Furball doesn't mean flying around in circles at 500ft until you get shot down. Usually you don’t see the furballer all that up tight about being shot down in this 1st place. But that doesn't mean he doesn't intend on rtb'ing.
Energy fighting is about tricking the other guy into burning his e while preserving your own. B-n-Z is a type of energy fighting but not in the way the timid fly it. They basically "half-arsed pass and run".
An aggressive player will come in force you to break with a deliberate pass then climb up and be right back in before you can recover. He maintains his e advantage by making you respond to him. He bleeds you out and shots you down.
Pure energy fighting as Urchin describes is difficult. What you describe is not. Screwing up your SA as if some how it is a "learned" skill in an arena with 6k huge icons with range/closure indicators and a gps clipboard map and in-flight radar is laughable.
By diving in at high speed and flat level extensions to "escape" there's not much chance in "giving up separation". If flown correctly your high speed pass will leave the bad guy responding to you. Just climb up into a pitch back and you be can right back on him and if he breaks again he looses more energy. You simply repeat. Once he's spent you have him.
No one is telling you how to fly or have fun. Just try not to say that your way is the only way.
Regards,
Wotan
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Kills per hour has to be one sign of timidity doesn't it.
There's a guy who fly's your typical 20K BNzzzz P51 in PAC time that struggles to get 2 kills per hour . Actually his entire squad fly the same way , the squad averages about 3 kills per hour. I think they are trained in boring Bnzzz.
Admittedly it's a little harder in a smaller arena with ave 80-120 players to rack up the kills per hour but jeez , how could you get excited about the game consistently averaging 2 an hour.
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OK. I've been reading this thread since I started it. Some guys making the "Bore and Zoom" claims were making me wonder.... That was until the other night...
I was flying with a couple squaddies over an enemy airfield trying to shoot down anything that dared leave the AAA umbrella. Well, along comes this high P-51D and I think now I've got to worry about this guy and loose my E advantage over the low bandits.
Long story short, this guy became the exact description of what some of you have been talking about all along... Zoom,, go almost a sector away, come back.. zoom.. repeat.
Heh.. and all this time I was thinking some of remarks were being pointed at my flying style.
Anyhow, I'll post the film when I get home later.
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Originally posted by Urchin
I basically only want to address two points here. First, yes, I can think of a situation where the Typhoon will "out-turn" the Spit. That situation would be any nose-to-nose turn where the Spitfire is moving substantially faster than the Typhoon. Furthermore, if the Spitfire dives on your Typhoon, and you break so as to cause a nose-to-nose condition after the initial "merge" (i.e. he dives, overshoots, and turns into you while you are turning back into him), and the Typhoon does not beat the Spitfire around, you know it is now safe to run because his temporary speed advantage is all gone.
Second point I'd like to address- "Boom and Zooming" is inherently safer than angles fighting. A misjudgement in the opponents energy state while Boom and Zooming is not likely to be disasterous unless you have very poor judgement indeed. Typically, the only judgement you need to make before "boom and zooming" any number of enemies is "Am I higher, and am I faster?" What I call "pure" energy fighting is probably the most risky, because you are actually engaging in a fight with the enemy trying to bleed his energy down actively. If you make a small misjudgement of his energy state, you die.
That is one case where a Typhoon pilot that knows how to angles fight will easily escape, while one that does not will likely just try to floppy fish his way out of trouble.
I agree that strictly 'Boom and Zooming" is safer than Angles fighting, But Energy Fighting is NOT safer, your margin for error is very thin, you misjudge his E or yours even by a tiny bit and you're dead.
As far as your nose-to-nose turn goes, why would the Spit blow his E advantage? As thrila says the Spit holds it's E better than any plane, the Typhoon does not holds it's E well at all through any manuever, it would bleed E badly thorugh that turn. The Spitfire should be able to keep the Typhoon 'cornered' for a long time in the above scenario. The Typhoon does not out-acclerate a Spitfire enough to make any difference.
Zazen
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Originally posted by Dead Man Flying
With both planes at high speed, a Typhoon will cut an amazing instant turn compared to the Spit. If that allows it to force a headon shot, it already has twice as much chance of scoring a kill. The Typhoon also accelerates better than the Spit.
So no, the Spit does not enjoy an absolute advantage.
-- Todd/Leviathn
If the Typhoon is getting dove on as is my example near the ground, there is little room to accelerate after a manuever and any nose-to-nose turn by the Typhoon would serve to only temporarily negate the Spit's advantage. The Typhoon will have blown alot of E compared to the Spit doing that, the Typhoon should not be able to escape, look at the charts, a Typhoon does not have a very significant accleration advantage over a Spitfire. I can't find the data, but from my experience a Typhoon does not have an instantaneous turnrate advantage over a Spit at any speed. Spits actually handle very well at speed in AH.
Zazen
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Originally posted by Redd
Kills per hour has to be one sign of timidity doesn't it.
There's a guy who fly's your typical 20K BNzzzz P51 in PAC time that struggles to get 2 kills per hour . Actually his entire squad fly the same way , the squad averages about 3 kills per hour. I think they are trained in boring Bnzzz.
Admittedly it's a little harder in a smaller arena with ave 80-120 players to rack up the kills per hour but jeez , how could you get excited about the game consistently averaging 2 an hour.
Yes, the problem here is definition. Urchin and others using Boom and Zooming as though it were synonymous with Energy Fighting creates the misperception that is what energy fighting is. Anyone who strictly Boom and Zooms and calls that Energy Fighting is like a TnB pilot only uses flat break turns and calls that angles fighting. I totally agree that people who only Boom and Zoom and 'extend' a sector and half after each pass are timid to the point of ineffectual. My question is, if that person, who obviously has no clue wtf they are doing, extends into infinity why do they bother you guys so much? I encounter the same people in the MA, I just laugh at them and continue on my merry way killing their buddies while they 'extend'.
Zazen
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Zaz
How does thrila saying ...
I don't usually have much trouble dealing with high spits. They bleed veyr little E, causing them to overshoot very easily.
equate to you saying ...
As thrila says the Spit holds it's E better than any plane
That statement is so blatantly wrong, I found it hard to believe that you said it.
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Originally posted by Redd
Kills per hour has to be one sign of timidity doesn't it.
There's a guy who fly's your typical 20K BNzzzz P51 in PAC time that struggles to get 2 kills per hour . Actually his entire squad fly the same way , the squad averages about 3 kills per hour. I think they are trained in boring Bnzzz.
Admittedly it's a little harder in a smaller arena with ave 80-120 players to rack up the kills per hour but jeez , how could you get excited about the game consistently averaging 2 an hour.
That's interesting, 3 kills per hour is really bad. Keep in mind though kills/hour is also greatly affected by the climb rate of your chosen ride, the time at which you play (low MA #'s means more hunting time) and return to base time. Someone who flies a bad climber and returns to base after almost every hop will have a relatively low kills/time. Also, people who do not just defend their own bases but fly away from their base to interdict and CAP in enemy territory will have a lower K/T. Also, people, like myself, who refuse to vulch fields will have a lower K/T. This does not mean that they aren't as effective in combat, it just means a greater portion of their air time is spent in non-combat flying. I calculated it once for myself, I spend 3/4 of my total air time getting to altitude/re-alting as necessary, getting to the fight, and returning to base.
The best kills/time is to be had from cv defense/attack, I know several people who do this almost exclusively and have some of the highest k/t in the MA camp in and camp out. This doesn't mean they are more effective than anyone else, it's just, simply, a by-product of the nature of the fighting they pursue.
I would even go so far as to say, the lower the K/D ratio of the average pilot the higher their K/T and vice-versa, on average. They are almost mutually exclusive sub-ranks.
Zazen
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Originally posted by SlapShot
Zaz
How does thrila saying ...
I don't usually have much trouble dealing with high spits. They bleed veyr little E, causing them to overshoot very easily.
equate to you saying ...
As thrila says the Spit holds it's E better than any plane
That statement is so blatantly wrong, I found it hard to believe that you said it.
That's what it means Slappy. Not sure what the problem is, the Spit retains it's E better than any plane. That is the same as saying the Spit bleeds very little E. Two sides of the same coin.
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Originally posted by SlapShot
If you are realitivly new at this game and are AFRAID to die, then you will inevitable turn into a Bore-N-Zoom pilot.
I agree that if you are new to the game you should not Energy fight first. It requires alot more experience to judge relative E states than it does to judge angles in angles fighting. Why anyone new to the game would be 'afraid' of anything is beyond my comprehension. I haven't met a newbie yet who was afriad to die, in fact those are the guys upping repeatedly at CAP'd fields just looking for instant action/experience.
Zazen
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Originally posted by Zazen13
Yes, the problem here is definition. Urchin and others using Boom and Zooming as though it were synonymous with Energy Fighting creates the misperception that is what energy fighting is. Anyone who strictly Boom and Zooms and calls that Energy Fighting is like a TnB pilot only uses flat break turns and calls that angles fighting. I totally agree that people who only Boom and Zoom and 'extend' a sector and half after each pass are timid to the point of ineffectual. My question is, if that person, who obviously has no clue wtf they are doing, extends into infinity why do they bother you guys so much? I encounter the same people in the MA, I just laugh at them and continue on my merry way killing their buddies while they 'extend'.
Zazen
Are you reading the same posts as I am. I think that Urchin made quite a distinction between an E fighter and a BnZ fighter and a Bore-N-Zoom fighter, in which he supported E fighting and BnZ fighting, but thumbs his nose (or some other body part on one's hand) at Bore-N-Zoom fighting.
I typically laugh at those types too Zaz (BnZ), but what some of us would like to do is convince them to mix it up ... and lets have fun.
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Originally posted by SlapShot
I typically laugh at those types too Zaz (BnZ), but what some of us would like to do is convince them to mix it up ... and lets have fun.
My point is, who gives rat's arse what they do. Best way to punish those types is to dodge their feeble pass, laugh as they extend 2 sectors then wack their buddies left to die. Let their own teammates berate them into fighting. There's plenty of fish in the sea. Or better yet, get in a fast plane yourself, get up there and kick their arse, that's what I like to do. ;) I would venture to guess anyone flying that Bore n' Zoom style hasn't the faintest notion how to fight at altitude. If you are fast enough to keep 'em cornered they are easy kills.
Zazen
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Originally posted by SlapShot
Getting better at any of these "disciplines" requires, I would believe, one to die alot ... you can only truely learn by your mistakes and mistakes in this game means death.
Anyone who has played more than a year HAS died alot and therefore learned alot already, there's no avoiding it. Saying people only learn and get better by dieing is somewhat erroneous. Yes, learning from your mistakes has merit, to a point. But, once you've gained enough experience whereby your mistakes are few and far between, the opportunity to learn in this way has reached a point of diminishing returns. It's at this point one actually learns more by practicing, articulating and mastering tactics that the individual pilot finds most effective. You can learn more by repeated and refined success in various situations as by any failure.
Zazen
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To continue your High Spit/ Low Tiff example.
A spitfire in that situation doesn't have the Tiffie cornered. The only way that Tiffie is in trouble is if he just got out of a fight and is going 200 mph. Even then he can probably still get out of there unless the Spit pilot really knows what he is doing.
Lets say the Spit pilot is doing 300 at 2k, and the Tiffie is going 200 at 100 feet. After the Spit gets done diving on the Tiffie, he'll be doing ~400 mph. Hopefully, our hero in the Tiffie has seen the Spit coming. Lets give Tiffieboy 30 seconds of knowing where the Spit is. So in that 30 seconds, Tiffieboy endeavors to do a couple things.
First, build up a little bit of speed. The Tiffie could probably get to 250-270 in 30 seconds, from 200. I'm making a guesstimate here, I don't fly the Tiffie but I know it accelerates pretty well.
Second, get in a good position. If Tiffieboy has any sense, he won't try to run AWAY from the Spit... he'll run TOWARD the spit. He'll get himself at the Spits low 1 or 11, and get ready to engage.
So, now we'll get to the Spit. The Spit sees this low slow Tiffie, and starts salivating while he dives in. The Tiffie sees him and starts coming towards him... he starts drooling. He sees that the Tiffie is going to pass close under him on his 11. So, he banks left, steepens up his dive some because he wants to get that shot in.
Tiffieboy sees this. Actually.. Tiffieboy has seen this so many times before, he could do this part with his eyes closed. He judges the Spitfires speed, then pulls up to "duck" the shot when the Spit is at about 600 yards. He then rolls to place his lift vector where the Spit will come out from behind his tail, if the Spit continues that "diving turn" in an attempt to come back around on his 6. If the Spitfire stays in the turn, he is going to eat 4 Hizookas. If the Spitfire comes around hard in a loop, Tiffieboy will roll his lift vector back towards the Spit and do a loop too. And then the Spit will eat 4 Hizookas. If the Spit does none of these, but instead tries to set up for another pass, Tiffieboy levels out and hauls ass. The Spitfire might get another chance at it, but it is very doubtful. I know this because Spits can't catch a 190a5 after a manuever like that, and the Tiffie accelerates better than the a5, and is a good bit faster.
You don't really need to bleed off all your speed yanking all over the sky trying to dodge a BnZers pass. I'd guess I probably lose about 20-30 mph in a typical dodge, but I also dodge vertically upward, so if they try to set up for another pass, I can nose back down to regain my lost speed.
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And no Midnight, I've never categorized you or your squad as "Bore n Zoooomer's". I've seen you fight aggressively, or cautiously, depending on the circumstances at hand. Since thats the same way I fly, it'd be tough to castigate you for it.
I just call all P-51s 'runstangs', same as I call 190s "run90s"... doesn't really matter who's flying it.
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Originally posted by Zazen13 If the Typhoon is getting dove on as is my example near the ground, there is little room to accelerate after a manuever and any nose-to-nose turn by the Typhoon would serve to only temporarily negate the Spit's advantage.
[/b]
Urchin covered this one well. The Typhoon can force a nose-to-nose headon pass fairly easy at high speed and then use its acceleration and speed to create separation. This is a survivable situation. In the very least, the Typhoon can make things unpleasant for the Spit before finally running out of options.
The Typhoon will have blown alot of E compared to the Spit doing that, the Typhoon should not be able to escape, look at the charts, a Typhoon does not have a very significant accleration advantage over a Spitfire. I can't find the data, but from my experience a Typhoon does not have an instantaneous turnrate advantage over a Spit at any speed. Spits actually handle very well at speed in AH.
Spits handle okay at high speed in AH. They tend to not lock up, but they also tend to have a massive turn radius that other planes with better instantaneous turns can exploit when travelling at similar speeds. The Typhoon is one such plane.
In addition, I'm not sure where you're getting your acceleration information. If you look at Mandoble's acceleration tests (http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=117944), you'll find that the Typhoon outaccelerates the Spit V and Spit IX marginally at slow speed and substantially at medium to high speeds. So if a fast Typhoon can spoil the Spitfire's shot by turning into him, he can use this medium and high speed acceleration to create separation and equalize energy states.
But what do I know?
-- Todd/Leviathn
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Originally posted by Zazen13
I agree that if you are new to the game you should not Energy fight first. It requires alot more experience to judge relative E states than it does to judge angles in angles fighting. Why anyone new to the game would be 'afraid' of anything is beyond my comprehension. I haven't met a newbie yet who was afriad to die, in fact those are the guys upping repeatedly at CAP'd fields just looking for instant action/experience.
Zazen
I have been a TnB guy for quite some time, and having poked my finger in fun at the "E"/BnZ crew, I decided to see what it was like.
The plane I chose ... P-38
Here is some statistical history ...
Tour 47
Spit V - 542 Kills
P-38 - 3 Kills
Tour 48
Spit V - 311 Kills
P-38 - 27 Kills (thinking about it)
Tour 49
Spit V - 403 Kills
P-38 - 267 Kills (learning the plane)
Tour 50
Spit V - 158 Kills
P-38 - 458 Kills (main ride - still learning)
Tour 51
Spit V - 136 Kills
P-38 - 580 Kills (exclusive ride - still learning)
I easily scored more kills in the P-38 in Tour 51 than the kills I earned in the Spit V in Tour 47.
I don't believe for 1 second that if I had not had learned angles fighting, I would not have been that successful in a P-38 in such a short amount of time.
If you fly the P-38 and use just its speed and climbing abilities to pick people off, you will get alot of kills and survive, but you won't get as many kills if do not know the angles end of the game and really fight with it.
So I am not buying ...
It requires alot more experience to judge relative E states than it does to judge angles in angles fighting.
edit : thanks TC
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If you fly the P-38 and use just its speed and climbing abilities to pick people off, you will get alot of kills and survive, but you won't get as many kills if you do not know the angles end of the game and really fight with it.
think this is what SlapShot meant
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Originally posted by SlapShot
If you fly the P-38 and use just its speed and climbing abilities to pick people off, you will get alot of kills and survive, but you won't get as many kills if do not know the angles end of the game and really fight with it.
So I am not buying ...
It requires alot more experience to judge relative E states than it does to judge angles in angles fighting.
edit : thanks TC
Another one seduced to the Dark Side of the Lightning.
Yep Slapshot, you're pretty much correct.
ack-ack
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Originally posted by GScholz
That is a fallacy. If what you say is true then WWII air combat would have been impossible. Everybody flew "timidly" in real life. You see ... they only had one life.
Marseille didn't. Dude flew into packs of hurri's and p40's by himself. And you know what? He OWNED!!! :aok
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Originally posted by Stang
Marseille didn't. Dude flew into packs of hurri's and p40's by himself. And you know what? He OWNED!!! :aok
With a reported 17 kills in one day in North Africa. He also was an extremely good shot and would always aim for the engine and/or cockpit area, which would explain the reports of one pass, one kill that are credited to him.
ack-ack
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Since you started this thread... When I think of timid pilots the first thing that comes to mind is the "412 Runstangs", the "JBs" and a few others. With the notable exception of jonnyb and JB42 - who both can actually fly/fight with the best of'em.
For me and many others I think, it simply comes down to 'how much time we have to play' and 'how much fun ie: how many fights we can get into' in that time.
Furballers want to get the most bang for their buck. We dive right in now matter what the odds or disadvantage and do our best with what we have. It's a blast sometimes and can really get the heart pumping.
Apparently B-n-Zers like to fly only to survive or something. Now matter if they fly for a hour and only get 1 or 2 easy (cherry-picks) kills and rtb. I really can't understand this (and don't waste your time trying to explain it). I don't think alot of furballers understand it either, hence the many threads like this.
That's my take on it, like it or not. :p
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Everybody flew "timidly" in real life.
Timid pilots were typically grounded and on occasion even court martialled.
Flying to live has nothing to do with flying scared.
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Originally posted by DipStick
Since you started this thread... When I think of timid pilots the first thing that comes to mind is the "412 Runstangs", the "JBs" and a few others. With the notable exception of jonnyb and JB42 - who both can actually fly/fight with the best of'em.
For me and many others I think, it simply comes down to 'how much time we have to play' and 'how much fun ie: how many fights we can get into' in that time.
Furballers want to get the most bang for their buck. We dive right in now matter what the odds or disadvantage and do our best with what we have. It's a blast sometimes and can really get the heart pumping.
Apparently B-n-Zers like to fly only to survive or something. Now matter if they fly for a hour and only get 1 or 2 easy (cherry-picks) kills and rtb. I really can't understand this (and don't waste your time trying to explain it). I don't think alot of furballers understand it either, hence the many threads like this.
That's my take on it, like it or not. :p
The "name" pilots from the 412th are fairly good. That means the ones I know by name, anyway. The do fly "E-style".. but they know how to fly well enough that you aren't waiting 2 minutes between passes, they can keep the heat on and still avoid unnescesary risks. There isn't anything wrong with that, in my book.
The Jabores, on the other hand.... basically the are the epitome of the timid pilot, in my book. Defensively, they only move I see from them is a split-S to ack or friends, or a multi-sector run back to ack or friends. Offensively, one or two of them is good enough that with the support of 3 or 4 other guys they can get some kills. The rest of them are pretty hopeless, imo.
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I dont know about anyone else but furballs, I think, is the best part of Aces High. Having a even fight with large numbers of people together just blasting each other out of the sky is fun and still having to watch your six to stay alive.
But to your thing about the complaining, yes I agree the complaining gets outrageous but I can see why. If your engaged its usually with people of the same altitute and speed so there isnt a real advantage over one another. But if a guy engages at high altitudes and just BnZ's, its hard because once you kill the guy your on, he will just keep BnZing because he has the speed and altitude over you rather than the pilot just taking his pilot into a dive and join the fight. When he goes up, the other pilot might follow him up and somone else might blast on the rope or if you break off to engage someone else, the BnZ'er might just engage you when you least expect it to "cherry pick."
So either way there's nothing that can be done unless the pilot is willing to dive down into the furball rather than just BnZ.
Canaris
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Originally posted by Fruda
My only problem is the guys who do nothing but HO attacks. Earlier today, I was rammed by a Hurricane 2D, and about 15 minutes later, the same thing happened to me, but the guy was flying a Dora.
These were two different people, mind you, neither one of them attempted to shoot me. I had tried to turn away, but they wouldn't let up.
Head-on collisions without an attempt to shoot. That's a steaming pile of fun.
Ditto, that! U had a guy (I think it was a guy) HO me open fire and when I tried to avoid him he just turned into me and rammed me. There should be some kind of suicide penalty
You have committed suicide. You must spend the next 24hrs in the loony bin. Come back when you have recovered
Granted, collisions happen but nose-to-nose is pretty obvious.
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Originally posted by GScholz
That is a fallacy. If what you say is true then WWII air combat would have been impossible. Everybody flew "timidly" in real life. You see ... they only had one life.
No your wrong. You mistake timid with smart. As others do here. If you ask any real fighter jock they will tell you that a timid pilot is a dead pilot. I'm reading Shaw now and one of his main points is you have to be agressive. In a equal fight, co-alt, similar planes, the agressive pilot most often wins.
Flying BnZ is not always timid and a BnZer can be beat by a TnB plane if the tactics are flown right but if the TnBer just runs away at the 1st sign of trouble then that is as many here say, BORING. You don't have to run a sector and a half away to get back into the fight.
If the only capability you know your aircraft has is speed I guess that's the only thing you know how to use.
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kills/hour is no indication of the number of fights/hour, it's just won fights/hour. for fights/hour you need to also include the deaths/hour, e.g. fights/hour = k/h / (k/d) + k/h.
I calculated this for some arbitrary players (fighter scores only, tour 57):
shane 16.19
dipstick 14.11
slapshot 12.95
stang 12.04
ccvi 10.70
nopoop 10.87
canaris 9.94
urchin 9.80
TC 8.80
akak 8.13
low means more timid flying :p
(or longer flights to the fight)
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Okay it may be late and I'm not reading this right but... K/D is not represented by time so how can that be used as a variable in your equation to derive a kills an hour ratio?
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Dipstick Wrote: Since you started this thread... When I think of timid pilots the first thing that comes to mind is the "412 Runstangs", the "JBs" and a few others. With the notable exception of jonnyb and JB42 - who both can actually fly/fight with the best of'em.
Wow Dip, sorry you think that. Not sure what encounters give you that impression. I'll be happy to post some films showing some of the types of fights the 412th gets involved in when I get home.
As for the JB's I haven't come up against them much at all (I think that we had been on the same sides prior to the ENY system). Only this tour have I gotten into scraps with them and they have been pretty fun furballs. I've got a film of a recent fight that was a 3-v-3 with them I'll post as well.
Tango, XO
412th FS Braunco Mustangs
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I think the equation would look like this.
Deaths/Hour + Kills/Hour = Fights/Hour
Tour 57 I got a 14.7
It's a reasonably good way to measure aggressiveness.
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Seems to me the
(kills+assists+deaths)/time
would be closer to the amount of fights per hour.
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Yah, I forgot about assists. Not sure if they should count...
g00b
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Guys- using the stats only tells you how close your airfield is to a fight, not how aggressive you are in a fight.
Tango, XO
412th FS Braunco Mustangs
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yah... and upping from a front line field = more aggressive right? Not necessarily smarter, but more aggressive.
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I'd agree with that.. I tend to put myself at the low end of "agressive" flying.
Do me a favor and run some for the JBs to give people a baseline of timidity.
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Nah, it means that you get to a furball quickly. It doesn't mean you're anymore or less aggressive in a furball.
Tango, XO
412th FS Braunco Mustangs
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I respectfully disagree. I think the type that tries to get to a furball ASAP is more likely to be aggressive than someone who ups from a couple fields back.
It's about the mindset.
One does not spend 10 minutes climbing out in a P-51 to go fly "aggressive" in a furball.
One DOES up a Spit or LaLa and head straight into the fray.
Which style is more aggressive?
Note: I am not including skill or intelligence, only the urge to fight as much as possible.
I guess we need to define aggressiveness:
Inclined to behave in an actively hostile fashion. Assertive, bold, and energetic.
If all skill levels were equal, kills/time would be a pretty good measure of aggressiveness. Since they're not, factoring in deaths to provide the fights/time provides a reasonable check, as one does not have to have skills to die :)
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I tend to up from fields a bit from the fight so I can get up to speed by the time I make it in. Takes me longer to get in the fight, but once I'm in I'm as aggressive as possible. So I'd have to disagree w/ ya a little goob, though yeah those that up from a close field will get there quicker, doesn't mean they wont get slaughtered real quick either.
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Originally posted by Urchin
Do me a favor and run some for the JBs to give people a baseline of timidity.
jb33 9.27
jb42 8.56
jb01 8.09
jb11 7.88
jb22 7.81
jb35 7.40
jb28 6.31
jb77 6.26
jb07 6.12
jb17 5.95
jb82 3.22
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Originally posted by HUN
Okay it may be late and I'm not reading this right but... K/D is not represented by time so how can that be used as a variable in your equation to derive a kills an hour ratio?
If you kill 2 for every time you die (= k/d of 2) and kill 4 per hour, that also means you die 2 times per hour, 4 kills/hour / 2 kills/deaths = 2 deaths/hour.
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Originally posted by g00b
Yah, I forgot about assists. Not sure if they should count...
g00b
I often spend a good deal of effort/time fighting a guy only to have him finished off by a someone who just showed up.
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Tour 57 using my method and a sampling of folks.
furious: (101+26+29)/11.75= 13.27 fights per hour or 1 fight every 4.52 min on average
stang: (393+71+46)/38=13.42 fights per hour or 1 fight every 4.47 min on average
leviathn: (64+8+14)/4.5=19.11 fights per hour or 1 fight every 3.14 min on average
jb42: (378+108+149)/64=9.92 fights per hour or 1 fight every 9.07 minutes on average
cobra412: (628+101+122)/79=10.77 fights per hour or 1 fight every 5.57 minutes on average
urchin: (177+38+25)/21=11.43 fights per hour or 1 fight every 5.25 min on average
manetmp: (1134+157+301)/89.5=17.79 fights per hour or 1 fight every 3.37 min on average.
What does all this tell us? Nothing. There is no way to guage how much fun someone is having by looking at scores. And fun is all that matters.
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Originally posted by ccvi
low means more timid flying :p
(or longer flights to the fight)
Or the time the player flies. I only fly after 12:30am PST and at those times it sometimes is very hard to find a fight. One of the reasons why I really don't play anymore.
ack-ack
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Originally posted by Zazen13
You can learn more by repeated and refined success in various situations as by any failure.
Zazen
From playing both sides I say you are dead wrong.
Before the TAS had players like Slappy or Mars we existed on play to survive---as the MA changed we quickly learned and are still learning that the only true skill that can carry over into other styles is getting in the middle and hanging out till your back in the tower.
Once you get good enuf at that you can fly any style with as much or more success as any of the so called marquis e/b&z players if yu want to.
Plain and simple yu gotta spend your time in the tower to be able to stay outta the tower if yu want to play agressive.
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Originally posted by g00b
yah... and upping from a front line field = more aggressive right? Not necessarily smarter, but more aggressive.
So the guy upping at a vultched field is more aggressive? I'd call that either bull-headed or just plain stupid.
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Originally posted by g00b
... One does not spend 10 minutes climbing out in a P-51 to go fly "aggressive" in a furball.
One DOES up a Spit or LaLa and head straight into the fray.
Which style is more aggressive?
Note: I am not including skill or intelligence, only the urge to fight as much as possible.
I guess we need to define aggressiveness:
Inclined to behave in an actively hostile fashion. Assertive, bold, and energetic.
What kind of garbage is that?
Someone who flies 2 minutes to a furball and is shot down within 2 minutes isn't doing any more fighting than a P-51 that flies 10 minutes before fighting and then fights for 10 minutes after that.
Any Turn fighter plane (Spit, La7, N1K, KI84, Hurricane, etc) can start fighting as soon as it is wheels up. If a P-51 expects to last more than 30 seconds, it has to fly long enough to get altitude and speed (aka E)
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Aggressiveness isn't time based. Its all about what that pilot does in a fight, such as continuing pursuit, using ACM to down multiple enemies, and going out of his way to ensure his target is destroyed.
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Newbe history enthusiast:
Jumps in, starts engine, watches the prop turn over and listens to the awesome sound of a powerful engine coming to life. Feels the goosebumps of about to engage in a battle to defend the homeland. Technology is everything. Life is finite. The choice is clear, a faster plane and bigger guns are not only better, but way more awesome. There is a reason late war planes were designed to B&Z. Its more effective at accomplishing historical objectives.
Newbe gamer:
Jumps in, starts engine, heads straight for the furball. The graphics are merely in the way. Target is everything. The choice is clear, mastering the dogfight gives glory, the turnfighter is the medium.
I know from experince, it takes a lot to become more aggressive when you are really into re-living a moment in history and take your life seriously.
Only lately have I stooped so low as to practice turfighting. And althought its gamey, I admit it is a real blast and does improve your skill vastly.
But every once in a while I hope I will still have the need to jump into a cool technical marvel that is fast, has big guns, and can manouver at high speed, and heck, maybe even joust with a turnfighter.
RitteR
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RTSigma Wrote:
Aggressiveness isn't time based. Its all about what that pilot does in a fight, such as continuing pursuit, using ACM to down multiple enemies, and going out of his way to ensure his target is destroyed.
Well said RTSigma.
Dipstick- As promised here's a couple of film snippets I have of some 412th encounters over the last couple of months. I ask that folks view the films before making a generalized statement that the 412th is timid.
These 4 films are from four separate 412th squad nights:
http://www.brauncomustangs.org/films/412thfilm.ahf (http://www.brauncomustangs.org/films/412thfilm.ahf) (1.6MB)
http://www.brauncomustangs.org/films/film23_0000.ahf (http://www.brauncomustangs.org/films/film23_0000.ahf) (2.8MB)
http://www.brauncomustangs.org/films/412thfilm2.ahf (http://www.brauncomustangs.org/films/412thfilm2.ahf) (3.0MB)
http://www.brauncomustangs.org/films/film44_0630.ahf (http://www.brauncomustangs.org/films/film44_0630.ahf) (2.3MB)
Here are 2 film snips of some 412th non-squadnight flying:
http://www.brauncomustangs.org/films/film12_0305.ahf (http://www.brauncomustangs.org/films/film12_0305.ahf) (3.5MB) (Cobra412+Tango)
http://www.brauncomustangs.org/films/film39.ahf (http://www.brauncomustangs.org/films/film39.ahf) (4.1MB) (SkatSr, Notar, CavemanJ, Tango)
Here's a film snip of a fun fight I had:
http://www.brauncomustangs.org/films/bfm-p38s-190.ahf (http://www.brauncomustangs.org/films/bfm-p38s-190.ahf)
...and Here's a film of 3v3 the 412th had with the JB's:
http://www.brauncomustangs.org/films/412thJB.ahf (http://www.brauncomustangs.org/films/412thJB.ahf) (3.0MB)
Tango, XO
412th FS Braunco Mustangs
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Ritter:
Turnfighting, B&Z, energy fighting etc. are all generalized ways of trying to describe air combat techniques. (Personally I prefer Shaw's "angles" vs. "energy" tactics as a better categorization.)
The point however is that they are merely categorizations and in reality the distinction is much more blurred than that. (Hopefully the above films demonstrate that - when is an angles fight and energy fight and when is an energy fight an angles fight?- kind of hard to tell infact some of the distinction is only relative to whichever planes are matched up.)
My suggestion is not to box yourself into being an only angles tactician or only energy tactician. You should learn to be proficient in both no matter what plane you fly because as Col. John Boyd postulated, it really comes down to getting inside your opponents decision loop and having the full repertoire will give you a higher probability of doing that.
Tango, XO
412th FS Braunco Mustangs
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Originally posted by dtango
Well said RTSigma.
Dipstick- As promised here's a couple of film snippets I have of some 412th encounters over the last couple of months. I ask that folks view the films before making a generalized statement that the 412th is timid.
These 4 films are from four separate 412th squad nights:
http://www.brauncomustangs.org/films/412thfilm.ahf (http://www.brauncomustangs.org/films/412thfilm.ahf) (1.6MB)
http://www.brauncomustangs.org/films/film23_0000.ahf (http://www.brauncomustangs.org/films/film23_0000.ahf) (2.8MB)
http://www.brauncomustangs.org/films/412thfilm2.ahf (http://www.brauncomustangs.org/films/412thfilm2.ahf) (3.0MB)
http://www.brauncomustangs.org/films/film44_0630.ahf (http://www.brauncomustangs.org/films/film44_0630.ahf) (2.3MB)
Here are 2 film snips of some 412th non-squadnight flying:
http://www.brauncomustangs.org/films/film12_0305.ahf (http://www.brauncomustangs.org/films/film12_0305.ahf) (3.5MB) (Cobra412+Tango)
http://www.brauncomustangs.org/films/film39.ahf (http://www.brauncomustangs.org/films/film39.ahf) (4.1MB) (SkatSr, Notar, CavemanJ, Tango)
Here's a film snip of a fun fight I had:
http://www.brauncomustangs.org/films/bfm-p38s-190.ahf (http://www.brauncomustangs.org/films/bfm-p38s-190.ahf)
...and Here's a film of 3v3 the 412th had with the JB's:
http://www.brauncomustangs.org/films/412thJB.ahf (http://www.brauncomustangs.org/films/412thJB.ahf) (3.0MB)
Tango, XO
412th FS Braunco Mustangs
It's been my experience as of late that the 412th are willing to mix it up. Some of the best fights I've had in a long time were the ones I had with Cobra412 the other night.
ack-ack
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Originally posted by Furious
What does all this tell us? Nothing. There is no way to guage how much fun someone is having by looking at scores. And fun is all that matters.
True, but that is an interesting manipulation of statistics. Supposedly I find a fight every 4:59 (excluded 54 mins of memorial flight time this tour). No wonder I get impatient beyond 7-8 minutes ;)
But like Furious said, it doesnt guage fun. Ive winged with former squadies that didnt kill a third as often as I, but could manage to stay alive. They'd not fair well with this formula, but were not timid, and did have fun.
No doubt there are some timid flyers out there. The frustrating co-alt dots that run before they get in con range, or dive away as soon as they get into con range. Plus the other multiple examples in this thread. One small suggestion Id make before you pass that 'timid' judgment, is to reasses your own SA first. By that I mean SA is naturally friendly blind. Whatever is not a threat to you is low priority, however when you switch that to the enemies POV, those multiple low priority items become major attention grabbers. I only mention this because so often when Ive chatted with nme's, they have no clue that they were actually part of a multi v. 1, and question your 'timidness'
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Screw chicks man, I just wanna dance.
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Originally posted by nopoop
The timid ones that orbit above the fight are the easiest to track. They take a few of forms....
...The one that waits until a certain con has his hands full, swoops down at the right moment to pluck him and ...."zooms".
Maybe Sir would prefer it if said pilot were to book an appointment for a more convenient time? :D
Good thread - interesting to see it surface again.
Slapshot/Stang - just found an old film with Stang and me both flying for the rooks in the same group engagement. I might even post it. But for now, all I've got to say is ---> Poor Stang :lol:lol and a very smug -> :D
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Originally posted by nopoop
The timid ones that orbit above the fight are the easiest to track. They take a few of forms....
...The one that waits until a certain con has his hands full, swoops down at the right moment to pluck him and ...."zooms".
Maybe Sir would prefer it if said pilot were to book an appointment for a more convenient time? :D
Good thread - interesting to see it surface again.
Slapshot/Stang - just found an old film with Stang and me both flying for the rooks in the same group engagement. I might even post it. But for now, all I've got to say is ---> Poor Stang :lol:lol and a very smug -> :D
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Poor Stang? wtf? :confused:
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Slapshot/Stang - just found an old film with Stang and me both flying for the rooks in the same group engagement. I might even post it. But for now, all I've got to say is ---> Poor Stang and a very smug ->
huh ?
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Originally posted by SlapShot
You only wish you could fly the Hog like Stang does.
Erm... Having just had another look at that film, I'd stick with my own methods! :aok Stang seems to be flying around, doing a lot of sightseeing, turns away when a high Spit approaches, eventually chases after it in a 3v1 (I was one of the other 2 - lol), misses, recovers, does a bit more sightseeing only to get cherrypicked by WMKubwak in a P51.
Back on topic - I flew with regard to my plane's limitations, and my own limitations (quite a list! - lol). My goal in general (as it was on this occasion) was to help out the guys around me as best I could, but to do what I could to safeguard our base, in this case a CV. My reason for being there was not for personal aggrandisement, or to see how well I could turnfight a hog against a Spit. I missed a Spit, but didn't feel bad - this was in the AH1 "yank-the-stick-as-hard-as-you-can-and-it'll-be-all-right" days... Often when defending a CV, I'd use a CHog and go after the incoming buffs - very high risk of course. On this occasion I realised I'd upped a DHog instead of a CHog, so didn't try for the B17 formation that was buzzing around.
So I don't think timidity comes into it. I enjoyed flying for the overall battle. A personal duel within that scenario was never what I was looking for. That's what the DA is for.
Originally posted by Stang
I really think the key is to be as aggressive as you possibly can be. If you have a hole or a shot, TAKE IT. Don't wuss around and wait for the guy to be engaged and then try to cherry pick him. Get in there and kill him before your friends arrive. That drives them nuts and gets you a high kill tally. I love hearing other guys over local vox saying, "Another damn assist" while I'm racking them up because I get in there as hard as I can. I'm not saying go in full bore to the death, but if you can do something, why not do it? Taking chances is the spice of life in AH. Target drones are readilly available and free to shoot at for those not willing to make the leap. I can't tell you how many times in the last few days I've run into guys even in 1 on 1's who make a lazy ho attempt then just run in a shallow dive. If it ever occurred to them to pull a quick immelman and try to get above and behind me I might be beside myself with joy. Hell I might even just sit there, let em kill me and yell a quick WTG! over ch 200 to them for actually showing some skills.
Oh, btw Beetle, I've flown the hog a lot this camp, something feels better about her so I've logged some hours... you can ride the edge in that thing like crazy with the maneuvering flaps and still keep the E to get out when you have too. I think I had a ton of success in it because my opponent wasn't expecting me to do anything aggressive with it... and by then's it's to late for the chap :D
I wonder why he wouldn't think a hog can't get down and dirty...
What a ride tho! a BEAST!
(http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/4/4_1_72.gif) (http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/4/4_1_72.gif) (http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/4/4_1_72.gif) (http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/4/4_1_72.gif)
LOL Stang!!!! Do you ever watch films of yourself, after you come out with crap like the above? What a crock! I read that after I watched the film, and I almost p*ssed my pants! :lol It's another of those "You say one thing and you do another" threads. My shelf of maroons is getting quite crowded!
I think I'll post that film... I'll just edit the voxx (for swearing etc., and clutter from another channel) and then you can see for yourself! Sorry you got whacked. The film has a happy ending though - I landed my 7 kills. :p
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Geeesh !!!
Why are we dragging this stuff up from August ? I don't understand ... you had your chance then, to make whatever point it is you are trying to make. You don't even play anymore, which makes it even more comical. Why participate on the BBS and threads like this when you aren't an active participant in the game ? ... looks kinda foolish.
I have met both you and Stang while in F-4Us (me in a Spit V) and only 1 fight broke out ... that was the fight that I had with Stang ... the encounter that I had with you ... all I saw was the backside of your F-4U running to the CV ack.
Typical of you to find one incident, on one film, to back up some sort of nonsense.
Bottom line ... I still stand behind what I said ... You only wish you could fly the F-4U like Stang does ... operative word here is "fly".
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Oh Slapshot! I knew you wouldn't disappoint me...
Originally posted by SlapShot
Why are we dragging this stuff up from August ? I don't understand ... you had your chance then, to make whatever point it is you are trying to make. You don't even play anymore, which makes it even more comical.
Because it was stang who revived this thread, almost 3 months after Ack-ack's last posting, not me. And I WAS playing last August. I have met both you and Stang while in F-4Us (me in a Spit V) and only 1 fight broke out ... that was the fight that I had with Stang ... the encounter that I had with you ... all I saw was the backside of your F-4U running to the CV ack.
Oh yeah? Up till August we had both been flying on the same side, therefore no fights possible. And yet you seem to have a very vivid recollection of this incident even today. But how could you know it was me? The only way you could prove that would be by film review after the event. So why don't you post that film? Maybe because you can't find it? Maybe because it doesn't exist? Maybe because... you lied?Typical of you to find one incident, on one film, to back up some sort of nonsense.
It's no nonsense, and it's one more film than you can come up with. Stang swanned around with three wingmen, but made no attempt to head towards the enemy field to push them back. Still, flying's kinda hard when you're dead. :lol Bottom line ... I still stand behind what I said ... You only wish you could fly the F-4U like Stang does ... operative word here is "fly".
Oh sure... watch the film and say that. :lol Does your assessment of flying prowess include sprouting wings at the shoulders and carrying a harp? :rofl
Hahahaha!! Gotta love it when the moguls of makebelieve have to take a bow to the fiefdom of film fact. :D
What a pair of maroons! :lol
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There is only one maroon in this thread, and he is flying the Union Jack.
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Originally posted by ccvi
kills/hour is no indication of the number of fights/hour, it's just won fights/hour. for fights/hour you need to also include the deaths/hour, e.g. fights/hour = k/h / (k/d) + k/h.
I calculated this for some arbitrary players (fighter scores only, tour 57):
shane 16.19
dipstick 14.11
slapshot 12.95
stang 12.04
ccvi 10.70
nopoop 10.87
canaris 9.94
urchin 9.80
TC 8.80
akak 8.13
low means more timid flying :p
(or longer flights to the fight)
the gig is up, I am Timid , dang can not fool ya'll any longer :p
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Slapshot! You're not even on the ropes - you're on the canvas already? Sheesh... that was like Cassius Clay v. Sonny Liston in 1964.
Oh well, I'll just have to join the timidity debate!
I always thought of kills per hour as a measure of how BUSY someone is, not how GOOD they are. And I can prove it too -
(http://www.zen33071.zen.co.uk/timid1.jpg)
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Beet ... I am not gonna joust with ya ... waste of time ... you havent proven watermelon ... never have ... never will.
Oh ... you want us to believe that 16.9 is A2A ... LOL ... WTG on all the GV kills ... :rofl
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Originally posted by beet1e
Slapshot! You're not even on the ropes - you're on the canvas already? Sheesh... that was like Cassius Clay v. Sonny Liston in 1964.
Oh well, I'll just have to join the timidity debate!
I always thought of kills per hour as a measure of how BUSY someone is, not how GOOD they are. And I can prove it too -
(http://www.zen33071.zen.co.uk/timid1.jpg)
Based on your points, I would say 1 or 2 runs vulching?
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Originally posted by ccvi
jb33 9.27
jb42 8.56
jb01 8.09
jb11 7.88
jb22 7.81
jb35 7.40
jb28 6.31
jb77 6.26
jb07 6.12
jb17 5.95
jb82 3.22
just what exactly are those numbers / where are they from?
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Beetle = EuroLaz
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Originally posted by dedalos
Based on your points, I would say 1 or 2 runs vulching?
Nope. If it was the tour I'm thinking of, one sortie was a 10 kill job - 3 buff formations and a fighter. Then more buffs came in... Beet ... I am not gonna joust with ya ... waste of time ... you havent proven watermelon ... never have ... never will.
Slapshot - a film is proof - no matter how much you would sometimes prefer otherwise. :D No, no GV kills in that time. But please... continue with your fantasy/makebelieve while I dig the film out. Then you'll be able to put a bucket over your head, say "I don't want to hear this", hum loudly in a tenor voice, and fumble your way around for a minute or two... like the guy in that US car commercial from way back when. :lol
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Originally posted by JB73
just what exactly are those numbers / where are they from?
see further above. tour 57, calculated by (k/h) / (k/d) + k/h (which equals d/h + k/h, which is an estimation for fights / hour).
edit: I'm sorry i forgot to calculate yours.
jb73 10.42
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ccvi
since you came up with this calculation of yours so you can thump your chest and say you are more agressive then all the others you have listed why not entertain me with a few matches so I can see how awesomely agressive you indeed fly, sir? what ya say?
I have never claimed to be any good, I do not thump my chest profusely infront of the malee here and I have no clue why you would inclued me in such a comparison...
definition of arbitrary:
Determined by chance, whim, or impulse, and not by necessity, reason, or principle
I take it since you chose to include was not by necessity, reason or principle you was apparently having an impulse to say that you are more agressive then anyone you listed below you in that comparison.............becare ful of whom you lay judgement upon ;)
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I think I didn't arbitrarily put you on the list. You're there because I knew you would be interested in this topic, otherwise you wound't have replied at least twice :p
The point was that k/t (which has been discussed in this thread) is useless, and if anything, it needs to at least include deaths, too.
Sure we can fight a few matches, just not to prove anything. In a well defined 1vs1 setup by definition both parties end up with the same (kills+deaths)/time value, therefore it cannot define timidity :D
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Originally posted by ccvi
I think I didn't arbitrarily put you on the list. You're there because I knew you would be interested in this topic, otherwise you wound't have replied at least twice :p
hmm thought it said arbitrarily players in your posting, I only replyed to your posting because it looked like you was calling me timid , then I replyed again to see how an agressive person flys, not how many kills they accumulate by any means necessary
The point was that k/t (which has been discussed in this thread) is useless, and if anything, it needs to at least include deaths, too.
Sure we can fight a few matches, just not to prove anything.
I did not ask for the matches to prove anything to you, simply to see your awesome agressiveblity
In a well defined 1vs1 setup by definition both parties end up with the same (kills+deaths)/time value, therefore it cannot define timidity :D
timidness is judged by the way a person flys regardless if it is in a duel, turn fighting to turn fighting or bnz vs angles, so from my point of view it can define timidness in a 1 vs 1, btw the matches were not described to be duels can be any setup you like Sir.
I just did not understand why you "arbitrarily" chose me except for the same reason I described earlier, I feel as you have layed judgement on me with out knowing anything about my flying abilitys in this game , I am not saying you are any better or any worse then me have never made such a claim, on the contrary you did when you included me in your little comparison posting
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Lacking creativity I picked everyone replying to this thread, plus the JBs because it was requested.
And, obviously, timidity has nothing to do with ability.
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Originally posted by Seeker
Beetle = EuroLaz
Sorry Beet but this one crack me up :lol
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I dunno, man. I'm still trying to figure out what the true goal of this thread is. Is it a conversion thing? A recruitment drive? Rationalization? An excuse to whine about one pov or the other? Boredom incarnate? Or is it just an endless philosophical debate as important as "less filling! - tastes great!"?
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Arlo it's all of this and more than you can think off.
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Originally posted by beet1e
Nope. If it was the tour I'm thinking of, one sortie was a 10 kill job - 3 buff formations and a fighter. Then more buffs came in... Slapshot - a film is proof - no matter how much you would sometimes prefer otherwise. :D No, no GV kills in that time. But please... continue with your fantasy/makebelieve while I dig the film out. Then you'll be able to put a bucket over your head, say "I don't want to hear this", hum loudly in a tenor voice, and fumble your way around for a minute or two... like the guy in that US car commercial from way back when. :lol
Beet ... I dont give a watermelon ... understand ?
Dig thru all the films you want ... I am sure you will find the perfect one to support whatever it is that you would like us to believe ... problem is ... everyone is on to ya ... have been for quite some time ... :D
Keep tryin bud !!!
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Originally posted by SlapShot
Beet ... I dont give a watermelon ... understand ?
Dig thru all the films you want ... I am sure you will find the perfect one to support whatever it is that you would like us to believe ... problem is ... everyone is on to ya ... have been for quite some time ... :D
Keep tryin bud !!!
Ahhhhh - gotcha! You're not interested in film evidence - and that's understandable. You want to cling to your fantasy/makebelieve!!! And that's entirely understandable! You have your mutual backslappers like stang to consider. You want to slap each other's backs so each of you can make the other look good - regardless of any film evidence to the contrary.
Oh ... you want us to believe that 16.9 is A2A ... LOL ...
Yes, I know it's a tall order for you to swallow that, so guess what: I have a film - some evidence - that shows me in a A2A scenario, and landing 9 kills. And I never went above 5K to do it. Sorry, didn't have the film rolling for the first 4 kills - but it's a good flick nonetheless! :aok
No doubt you'll want to discredit the film by saying I lent my account to someone for the evening. But spin it! Spin it any way you want - I have my films, you have your fiction/makebelieve! It's a win-win!!!
Here's that film - http://www.zen33071.zen.co.uk/film176f4u1d9k.zip
Oh, and here's the scene as it was after that fourth kill, before I got kills 5-9. And I DID land them - Enjoy!!!
(http://www.zen33071.zen.co.uk/film176f4u1d9k2.jpg)
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Originally posted by Ack-Ack
Very well said Wotan.
If anyone wants to know what a timid pilot looks like, here's a film of one in action. It's really sad to see the P-38 being flown like this Rook flew it. Timid pilots should be forbidden from flying that plane.
Brave Sir Robin (http://www.hispanicvista.com/ahfilms/film23.ahf)
ack-ack
That link doesnt work Ack-Ack, downloads as an html document when you right click and *save as*. When left clicking the link it takes me to a website with no films and from what I can see it only has political info on it.
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Ahhhhh - gotcha! You're not interested in film evidence
Yup ... I am not interested in whatever it is that you are trying to prove here ... and most would agree ... that's understandable
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I don't have need of your films tango. I'm sure you guys are great. I only go by what I've seen in the MA which has always been 3+ of you in P-51Ds vs me low and slow. You take turns on the b-n-z extending to at least 4k+ even at those odds. That was not only when I was in Spit5 but P-40, etc... as well.
Apparently you guys think dropping under 10k makes you aggressive. To me it's just timid boring stuff that takes no skill to eventually get the kill (when you always have alt and numbers). I call it being 'bored to death'. After 5 mins of this I usually take the chances necessary to get myself killed to end the misery and find a good fight somewhere else. It's just TOO BORING! My $.02
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Dipstick Wrote:
I don't have need of your films tango. I'm sure you guys are great. I only go by what I've seen in the MA which has always been 3+ of you in P-51Ds vs me low and slow. That was not only when I was in Spit5 but P-40, etc... as well.
Apparently you guys think dropping under 10k makes you aggressive. To me it's just timid boring stuff that takes no skill to eventually get the kill (when you always have alt and numbers). I call it being 'bored to death'. After 5 mins of this I usually take the chances necessary to get myself killed to end the misery and find a good fight somewhere else. It's just TOO BORING! My $.02
(1) My friend you sure aren't interested in even looking at the facts. You already have preconceived concept of how we fly and fight and have no interest in looking at the facts. Fine with me but don't go around spouting out stuff like you know how we fly because obviously you don't and choose to ignore reality.
(2) I'm glad you think we're bored to death when we're twisting and turning all over the skies. We sure are having a heck of a lot of fun and killing you why we are at it :).
Tango, XO
412th FS Braunco Mustangs
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Originally posted by SlapShot
Yup ... I am not interested in whatever it is that you are trying to prove here ... and most would agree ... that's understandable
LOL Slap! Allow me to paraphrase: "Don't confuse me with the facts - I know what I'm talking about!" :D
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Dtango - LOL! I think we're both pushing the same rock - up the same hill! :lol
:aok
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Originally posted by Kweassa
And personally if I'm not in a plane that can catch the timid runners - heck, nobody forced me to use a slower plane.
Kweassa,
I really liked your line above.... made me think back to the old rhetorical question....
"Why do slow planes always make this "whining" sound?"
:rolleyes:
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Originally posted by beet1e
The Me109 pilot Franz Stigler was shot down 17 times, and lived. Each of those 17 occurrences would have been a "death" in
Franz Stigler.... He was a JG27 boy ! :D
http://home.cogeco.ca/~cva/cawmay2004.htm
Apparently a gentleman as well.....
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Originally posted by Stang
Marseille didn't. Dude flew into packs of hurri's and p40's by himself. And you know what? He OWNED!!! :aok
Marseille was a freek for nature.... :aok
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Originally posted by Elfie
That link doesnt work Ack-Ack, downloads as an html document when you right click and *save as*. When left clicking the link it takes me to a website with no films and from what I can see it only has political info on it.
Yeah, that's because I took my server down and gave up the domain name. Hopefully, when I get off my lazy arse, I'll setup my server again.
ack-ack
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Originally posted by dtango
(1) My friend you sure aren't interested in even looking at the facts. You already have preconceived concept of how we fly and fight and have no interest in looking at the facts. Fine with me but don't go around spouting out stuff like you know how we fly because obviously you don't and choose to ignore reality.
(2) I'm glad you think we're bored to death when we're twisting and turning all over the skies. We sure are having a heck of a lot of fun and killing you why we are at it :).
Tango, XO
412th FS Braunco Mustangs
Facts? What part of this do you NOT understand?
"I only go by what I've seen in the MA which has always been 3+ of you in P-51Ds vs me low and slow. You take turns on the b-n-z extending to at least 4k+ even at those odds."
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Originally posted by Kweassa
And personally if I'm not in a plane that can catch the timid runners - heck, nobody forced me to use a slower plane.
So you would like to see an arena with only a few planes in it. P-51D, La7, 190D-9 and Temp. Oh yea... forgot the jets.
What an exciting.. (cough) (cough) game that would be. :rolleyes:
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Originally posted by DipStick
So you would like to see an arena with only a few planes in it. P-51D, La7, 190D-9 and Temp. Oh yea... forgot the jets.
What an exciting.. (cough) (cough) game that would be. :rolleyes:
Mr. Stick,
I think the point is... there are trade offs in the rides you pick. Since I prefered the faster German rides... I certainly didn't complain if a Spit kept going around in circles... or the Niki and 38 were doing their hang on the props, low speed maneuvering. (shrug) They were flying their rides to their advantage. On the other hand, they certainly shouldn't be surprised if they can't catch a Dora or FWa5 or 109G10.
Conversely when I infrequently flew the 109F (sure like the JG27 paint on that one tho) I just had to accept that I wasn't going to catch the Typhoon that decided he was going to leave !
I had a GREAT fight with one of the Damned one night. Nearly on the deck... him in a Typhoon and me in the 109F. We danced for awhile... everytime I would finally get the advantage the typhie would just extend away from me. Once he got the separation he needed he would reengage. I finally hit him in the oil and when he left that time he just kept going. He didn't complain about my slower plane and I didn't mock him for not sticking around and stall fighting til he died.
BTW Pony, Dora, FW drivers do stall fight them.... but usually only against another Pony or Dora etc. I mean... why slow down to stall fight the better turners? :rofl
All in all... the faster plane... flown correctly dictates the fight. I expect that fact is no surprise to you.
Simply, given the right conditions the FW190d9 driver can play for a shot, do a bit of turning at highspeed hoping to use the E-bleed for an instantaneous turn advantage.... yet when things start to go sour... just use the speed and leave.
A Zeke driver on the other hand really has one option... stall fight til he wins or the other guy leaves. I mean do Zeke drivers actually decide to JOIN a fight.... or does the fight just JOIN them ?
:rofl
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Thought you quit playing a while back soup? Yes I remember you from AW. You flew high and fast like Zazen. Yaaaaaaaaawwwwwwwwnnnnnnnnn.
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Originally posted by DipStick
Thought you quit playing a while back soup? Yes I remember you from AW. You flew high and fast like Zazen. Yaaaaaaaaawwwwwwwwnnnnnnnnn.
Yes I have stopped flying. Of course I suppose that invalidates all that I said.
Ah.. I wouldn't say I flew like Zazen... he shoots much better than I do. :lol
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Originally posted by DipStick
So you would like to see an arena with only a few planes in it. P-51D, La7, 190D-9 and Temp. Oh yea... forgot the jets. What an exciting.. (cough) (cough) game that would be
Sounds like the game I left last August. Thought you quit playing a while back soup? Yes I remember you from AW. You flew high and fast like Zazen. yaaaaaaaaawwwwwwwwnnnnnnnnn.
That's not fair. I liked Zazen. Maybe he did fly high and fast sometimes. I didn't know that was against AH rules? But Zazen did fight lower, as this pic shows.
(http://www.zen33071.zen.co.uk/zazen.jpg)
4510 - you will never change these guys' point of view that every plane should be flown like a SpitV. One day they will realise that not everyone is interested in all that TnB 2K SpitV crap, but it won't be today.
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Dipstick wrote:
"I only go by what I've seen in the MA which has always been 3+ of you in P-51Ds vs me low and slow. You take turns on the b-n-z extending to at least 4k+ even at those odds."
So I give you ample evidence that show's the contrary but you choose to ignore it. I don't understand that logic unless you WANT to paint a certain perspective of the 412th no matter what the evidence is.
Tango, XO
412th FS Braunco Mustangs
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Originally posted by beet1e
4510 - you will never change these guys' point of view that every plane should be flown like a SpitV. One day they will realise that not everyone is interested in all that TnB 2K SpitV crap, but it won't be today.
Beetle,
I don't suppose I will. This horse died years ago... probably about day two of Air Warriors existence and has been dug up and beaten ever since. Many variations on the theme, but still the same theme.
I have flown styles on both ends of the spectrum but used to spend most of my time just to the boom and zoom side of center. For me, I found Aces High harder to learn than Air Warrior, specifically on the turn and burn end. So my preference drifted a little further away from the TnB. (shrug) I've flown nearly every style, every format (MA, CT, DA, Scenarios... and what ever equivalent names applied in AW) and now I sit on the sidelines. (another shrug)
One constant over the years.... when I was TnBing I never had a BnZer call me on country channel and berate me for my style. If I had a penny for every TnB Slow Plane driver that whined at me over the years... :rofl I'd be retired a second time and working no third job. :aok
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I fly all kinds of planes and I fly to my planes strengths, but I think there is a distinction between BnZ and "energy" fighting. I hate it when I see a Joust and Extend (TM) pilot, they have very little skill and even less aggression. Energy fighting is something different alltogether and requires aggression and skill. I love fighting someone that knows proper energy fighting, they use climbing spirals, ropes, etc and they never get much farther away than 1.5k, but they dont Joust and Extend (TM). So, no, a P-51 or FW190 should not flat turn with a Zeke, but that does not mean that they have to have 5k alt advantage and do 5k extends after blown passes either.
Anybody that remembers Killer from the old DOS Air Warrior days knows how energy fighting is done. There is an old AW film I have of his where he caps Bland all by himself in a FW190. Most of the time he is 400-600 above a pack of Spits and is rarely above 200MPH. Watching that film was a revalation to me, until that point I didnt realize that you could fight an "energy" fighter like that, flaps out and 150MPH doing climbing spirals. It changed the way I flew those planes forever.
Joust and Extenders (TM) are just skilless losers and deserve the ridicule they get, unfortunately they are the majority of the cherrypicking "BnZ" crowd.
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3 runs in P-51 - The thing is easier to kill in than the La7 by far. I've only flown it a few times and don't know all the ins and outs. Went 7:1 after 3 times in it and that's mixing it up on deck....
Kills / Deaths + 1 3.5 (0)
Kills / Sorties 2.3 (0)
Kills / Hour 10.116 (0)
Hit percentage 7.382 %
Kills 7
Assists 2
Sorties 3
Landed 2
Death 1
Time hh:mm:ss 00:41:27
PS... Hate and I do mean HATE using one of Beet1es terms but this really is an "easy mode" plane. As you can see my hit % is still low. Never claimed to be a good shot (of course I did strafe a couple of town buildings and a GV on the last sortie). ;)
PSS... Notar actually came down and fought me on the deck once - got the kill. He got a "gk Notar" on Ch 200.
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Originally posted by DipStick
PS... Hate and I do mean HATE using one of Beet1es terms but this really is an "easy mode" plane.
:lol
:aok
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Hehee.. Figured you'd like that beet. :p
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Originally posted by DipStick
As you can see my hit % is still low. Never claimed to be a good shot
lol, you think thats low? How about my 1.1% ? :rofl