Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: rpm on August 21, 2004, 11:01:35 PM
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Seattle PI (http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/national/apelection_story.asp?category=1131&slug=Bush%20Heckler%20Fired)
Graphic designer fired after heckling Bush
By JOHN RABY
ASSOCIATED PRESS WRITER
CHARLESTON, W.Va. -- A man who heckled President Bush at a political rally was fired from his job at an advertising and design company for offending a client who provided tickets to the event.
The fired graphic designer said Saturday he won't try to get his job back.
"I'm mad less about losing the job - I'm more mad about the reasons," said Glen Hiller, 35, of Berkeley Springs. "All I did was show up and voice my opinion."
Hiller was ushered out of Hedgesville High School on Tuesday after shouting his disagreement with Bush's comments about the war in Iraq war and the search for weapons of mass destruction. The crowd had easily drowned out Hiller with its chant: "Four more years."
"He surrounds himself with people who support him," Hiller said of Bush. "Your opinion ... is viewed as right or wrong."
When he showed up for work at Octavo Designs of Frederick, Md., the following morning, he said he was told he'd embarrassed and offended a client who provided tickets to the event - and that he was fired.
The client was a public relations worker who represents the Berkeley County school district, he said. "It's just bizarre that you disagree with them and it all turns evil," Hiller said.
Messages left with Octavo Designs were not immediately returned Saturday.
Last month, Charleston City Council apologized to two protesters arrested for wearing anti-Bush T-shirts to the president's July 4 rally. The pair were taken from the event in restraints after revealing T-shirts with Bush's name crossed out on the front and the words "Love America, Hate Bush" on the back. Trespassing charges were ultimately dismissed.
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A man who heckled President Bush at a political rally was fired from his job at an advertising and design company for offending a client who provided tickets to the event.
And the problem is? I'm sure he can find a job fetching milkshakes for Michael Moore.
Is this another misguided "freedom of speech" whine?
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The client was a public relations worker who represents the Berkeley County school district
The school should be endorsing freedom of speech not political candidates.
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He wasnt fired for exercising his right to free speech. He was fired for failing to exercise good judgement.
So... yeah, ra.
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I hope Bush can steal the election again and again and again! :rofl
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something tells me they were looking for a reason to get rid of him and he provided one..
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You can have your free speech.
You are free to say whatever you desire.
Just be wary that with that freedom comes responsibility and consequences.
And if you work for me and are responsible for costing me business and in the end money. Money that goes to pay YOUR salary by deliberately going out of your way to insult or offend a customer of ours
The consequences are.
Your fired.
You dont pee in the pot you drink from
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Drediok's got it right. Ya wanna be a big-mouth in an inappropriate setting? Fine, be prepared to suffer the consequences.
Freedom of Speech does not garuntee Freedom from consequences.
rpm... who exactly is telling him to vote Bush or be fired?
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Rpm,
He could vote for whoever candidate he wants. He offended one of his company's clients. His company has every right to fire him.
OTOH, if he were to merely state to his employer that he was voting for Kerry and then got fired, that would be wrong.
I would state the same if the roles were reversed as far as candidates.
As an employee, you have a responsibility to control yourself in a professional manner whenever you're representing your company.
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I thought it was a catchy headline for the article, not sworn testamony. I apologuise to anyone who may have switched parties in fear of their job because of this. I am bad.
The fact that the client was the school district was what made it interesting. Had it been a design firm or some other private commercial corporation you would have a very strong point and I would agree. The school is a public institution of learning.
From the report he was'nt a total ultra melon, just a guy that got dogpiled when he dared to speak out (which is his legal right). He did'nt scream "Fire". The crowd was as much to fault as him for egging it on.
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OMG THE SCHOOL SYSTEM IS SO POLITICALLY BAISED QUICK REPORT IT TO THE DEMS.:rolleyes:
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Well... he could've chose not to go there since he knew perfectly well whats it about.
Not that I care about Bush at all, the pre-emptive hypocrit, but people simply doesn't go to the political rally of people who they don't like and if they go, they should behave.
Fortunately only few people are like him, who goes to political rallies to shout their disagreement.
It'd be a riot otherwise...
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Originally posted by rpm371
I thought it was a catchy headline for the article, not sworn testamony. I apologuise to anyone who may have switched parties in fear of their job because of this. I am bad.
Don't apologise, you are just another misguided democrat who can not seem to get their facts straight... ever.
Originally posted by rpm371
From the report he was'nt a total ultra melon, just a guy that got dogpiled when he dared to speak out (which is his legal right). He did'nt scream "Fire". The crowd was as much to fault as him for egging it on.
Freedom of speech is one's legal right, as id the right to fire an idiot who costs one business. As for being an ultra melon? I think the guy was an ultra melon for speaking out at the rally to begin with... but what do I know, I am just another conservative republican war monger according to your ilk.
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For what it's worth, I don't think you are a warmonger. I could be wrong.
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Looks like the tickets were "work benefit" so the person was representative of the company he worked for; even if the happening was kept on his free time.
He wasn't loyal to his employer, he maybe even damaged the relationship between his employer and the client so he deserved the boot.
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Has boosh stolen the election yet? Has he? Has he?? Ha? Hah? has he yet?
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Besides If I own a company..I can fire anyone I want for any reason I want and I shouldn't have to explain myself..It's my company...
So they were justified
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Originally posted by Coolridr
Besides If I own a company..I can fire anyone I want for any reason I want and I shouldn't have to explain myself..It's my company...
You'd better be in a "right to work" state, that and have a non-union workplace. Because, otherwise, you have to have a damn good reason to can someone, otherwise it's lawsuit city.
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Glen Hiller, 35, of Berkeley Springs was ushered out of Hedgesville High School on Tuesday....
Cancel the Prom Glen..... Focus on graduation next year!
:aok
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"Freedom of Speech does not garuntee Freedom from consequences."
I hear this one lots, but never know what it's trying to say. You could apply the same line to China, for eg.
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Originally posted by Nash
"Freedom of Speech does not garuntee Freedom from consequences."
I hear this one lots, but never know what it's trying to say. You could apply the same line to China, for eg.
Nash, that's just silly. Please don't be obtuse, it doesn't become you.
Are you implying that people can say whatever they wish without responsibility?
I'm going to a job interview. I know that most of the engineers at said company are all Aggies. The first words out of my mouth are, "You know, I really think that all Aggies are just dumb rednecks who like to have sex with animals."
Think I'll get the job? Probably not. Even if it is simply because I probably will not fit well into the established environment.
It's called Freedom of Speech, i.e. you can express yourself, it's not freedom from responsibility of your speech.
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Are you implying that people can say whatever they wish without responsibility?
And you're callin' me obtuse?
Your analogy about calling a potential employer a goat lover is exactly 100% typical of the kind of spasmodic mental gestures (regurgitation) that so often parades as actual thought on this BBS that, by mere virtue of its repetition is somehow supposed to lend it, like, actual unassailable meaning. Well.... unh uh..
The guy who got canned basically has the 'zact same job as I do. We get lots of clients that we're not particularly thrilled about. But we give voice to them because we understand that clients deserve their say, and barring any laws to the contrary, can say whatever the hell they want. And we'll do it as professionally and as effectively as we can. That we don't agree with their message/product/etc. doesn't matter and doesn't enter into it.
There's a huge difference here.
Because the client in this case has nothing to do with what the designer said at this rally. And it reflected on the client in no way. There was no negative repurcussion nor connection to them.... It was just some guy saying stuff at a rally. I get loads of tickets to games, for example - should I be wary about rooting for the away team? Right....
No matter how you slice it, he got canned simply because the client disagrees with his opinion. And that's pretty much wannabe tyrannical bulchit lameness.
They didn't like what the guy said or what he believes in. They're jerks.
"Be careful what you say." - Ari Fleischer
This is what you are saying..... and I come at this from 100 different angles and still don't get it. Well, I do... but it aint pretty. It is:
""Freedom of Speech does not garuntee Freedom from consequences."
Which is retarded.
"Graduates had been warned during rehearsal on Thursday that they faced arrest if - as was rumored - some stood up and turned their backs on Bush during his speech." On the day of the commencement, an announcer told the graduates that "anyone demonstrating or heckling would be subject to expulsion and arrest. The announcer urged that Bush be greeted with a 'thunderous' ovation." (AP 6/14/02)
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His employer made the decision and fired him, no?
Freedom of speech allows the client to express his/her displeasure at the mans actions, no?
"When he showed up for work at Octavo Designs of Frederick, Md., the following morning, he said he was told he'd embarrassed and offended a client who provided tickets to the event - and that he was fired. "
So your beef is with the company and not the client..
Though I dont think he should have been fired, it does seem that it's the company's right to make that decision.
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Hell yeah it's the company's right... just the same as it's the guy's right to sue for BS dismissal. Whatever, it's a wash.
But just wtf about all this makes it right? Why would you defend this crap? I wouldn't fire a conservative for being one. The entire thing is lame.
And this responsibility of speech mantra dressed up as common sense couldn't be any more remotely removed from it.
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You talking to me Nash? I dont think it was right that they fired him.. But thats the company's decision, its their legal right.
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I go to New York. I want to sell 'I Luv New York' t-shirts on the street. I tell everyone I meet in New York (including possible customers) that I hate all New Yorkers.
Amazingly I don't sell many shirts. Obviously it is becuase I'm being violated for my first admendment rights to free speech. I'm going to sue everyone in New York.
Far fetched? Not from what you are saying.
I have an advertising firm. Greenpeace hires my company to do some PR for the about saving the whales. At one of the affairs a couple of my people hired and on company time stand outside wearing 'Whales, the other white meat' t-shirts. Greenpeace is pissed and lets me know just how pissed they are. I fire the company bozos.
Free speech you say. Not in those circumstances.
Bottom line. There are consequences for your actions including 'free' speech.
Remember, it's free because you have the right to say it. Free as in 'we won't stop you from saying it, you dumbsh8t, even though you may alienate everyone on the freaking planet for saying it.'
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
You talking to me Nash? I dont think it was right that they fired him.. But thats the company's decision, its their legal right.
Was it legal? I'm not sure about that...
But so what.
There's two dozen things you could have said about all of it... And you choose this.
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"Graduates had been warned during rehearsal on Thursday that they faced arrest if - as was rumored - some stood up and turned their backs on Bush during his speech." On the day of the commencement, an announcer told the graduates that "anyone demonstrating or heckling would be subject to expulsion and arrest. The announcer urged that Bush be greeted with a 'thunderous' ovation." (AP 6/14/02)
Last month, Charleston City Council apologized to two protesters arrested for wearing anti-Bush T-shirts to the president's July 4 rally. The pair were taken from the event in restraints after revealing T-shirts with Bush's name crossed out on the front and the words "Love America, Hate Bush" on the back. Trespassing charges were ultimately dismissed.
This is George Bush's America.
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Originally posted by rpm371
This is George Bush's America.
Including the economy. Remember, Clinton was the only reason the economy was good. It's all Bush's fault.
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Drunky your analogies still don't hit the mark. This guy was fired not for anything other than the fact that the client disagreed with this guy's views.
Had nothing to do with anything else.
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Sorry I can't be more on point than I have tried. I offer one lasting parting try though.
Bush is Hitler. Just as RPM has stated, it's all his fault.
Elect Kerry and everything will be better.
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Something for anyone that is an employee of a buisness to remember.
The sole reason for your being an employee is to help your employer make money.
The moment you are not assisting and conributing in that goal, or the moment by your actions deliberate or otherwise you put your employer in a position where you cost them more money to keep you then you are making them or costing them buisness and thus costing them money.
Then you have outlived your usefulness
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There ya go...
Cry about it..
No... I mean... Blame someone... Say something... Be sarcastic no matter how disconnected it is. Say it often. Whatever it is. It just might stick.
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Originally posted by Nash
Was it legal? I'm not sure about that...
But so what.
There's two dozen things you could have said about all of it... And you choose this.
I think WV is an at will employment state, as long as they didnt fire him for racial or sexual reasons etc then its their legal right.
I'm curious what did you want me to say?
I allready said that I think they should not have fired him..
Personally I think you are stupmed by that and have nothing clever to say so you are just talking jibberish. :)
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Originally posted by rpm371
This is George Bush's America.
I cant wait for him to steal another election! I hope he does in 2008 too!
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Originally posted by Nash
Drunky your analogies still don't hit the mark. This guy was fired not for anything other than the fact that the client disagreed with this guy's views.
Had nothing to do with anything else.
Nah, I'll try again.
The client provided tickets to the company. A company employee went to the client's presidential rally and presented himself as against the client's customer.
The client is upset. Understandably so. The company says to the anti-presidential employee, "We gave you those tickets and you absolutely knew what they were to and you decided this was your forum to 'express' yourself. You showed extremely bad decision making ability and have embarassed our company to our client. You are the weakest link. Goodbye."
If you cannot see the link then I cannot express it any clearer.
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Are people actually debating this? Good God. If someone abused my faith and goodwill by heckling the president with tickets I gave to him, I'd beat the holy motherloving **** out of him long before he was fired.
-- Todd/Leviathn
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Originally posted by DREDIOCK
Something for anyone that is an employee of a buisness to remember.
The sole reason for your being an employee is to help your employer make money.
The moment you are not assisting and conributing in that goal, or the moment by your actions deliberate or otherwise you put your employer in a position where you cost them more money to keep you then you are making them or costing them buisness and thus costing them money.
Then you have outlived your usefulness
BS.
Well.... true... but.... simplistic.
Because there's lotsa ways to make your company money. It's clear that not all of them fall within acceptable boundries. Some are downright illegal, as we're well aware.
So your logic is completely FUBAR, if it is in fact in the service of trying to make a point.
This is what I'm saying... Because again this is exactly the kinda thinking brought to bear on such issues over and over again and it is mind numbingly.... what word can I use?
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And BTW, rpm's title 'Vote Landslide Bush or You're Fired' is a little off topic.
Ban rpm.
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Originally posted by Drunky
"We gave you those tickets and you absolutely knew what they were to and you decided this was your forum to 'express' yourself.
God forbid that stump speech sales pitches should resemble any form of public debate or resemblance to democracy as we knew it.
Next thing ya know folks will be required to show up in cheerleader outfits.
Ya know... Who cares which side is which. I cannot believe you are bothered by people expressing their opinion. I can almost garuntee you that Lincon got heckled. And that Lincon answered back. WTF is wrong with this - you're falling asleep.
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How did they know who he worked for? sounds sorta Hooverish.
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It's simple Nash. The guy threatened the relationship between his employeer and THEIR (his) client. Therefore, he offended the client AND the employer. Whats retarded? Whats not to understand? The doofus offended at least two parties that provide (at least partially) his freeking paycheck.
See, I figure there's more to the story than some ultra melon firing off his cakehole at some event and getting fired over it. The incident at the event was (likely) simply the last in a string of ultra melon displays this guy pulled.
But, Freedom of Speech still does not free you to "say what you want, where you want, when you want". Plenty of folks don't get that. As a matter of fact, lots of people take a mile when you give them an inch. Oh well, thankfully, the only people hurt by the inability or refusal to understand this is.. well, see above.
Tumor
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Originally posted by Torque
How did they know who he worked for? sounds sorta Hooverish.
LOL! Great post.
Here you clearly assumed that the Bush campaign officials got him fired.
Why did you want to make that assumption when the article explicitly said that the client who ultimately gave this employe the ticket through the company got embarassed by his behavior and went to complain to the company... Then the company fired him.
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Originally posted by Tumor
It's simple Nash. The guy threatened the relationship between his employeer and THEIR (his) client. Tumor
That's basically it.... What everyone's been saying.
And okay, sure.
This guy was fired because his limp wristed bosses wouldn't tell their client that they were being a bunch of pansies about it.
Which, OKAY, I understand - you don't have to tell me that again.... and YEAH there may be laws protecting such sissyness.... But what are you doing? Who cares? This is cool with you?
Geeze...
Whatever made you think this kinda thing is okay? Not a ring I'd wanna throw my hat into.
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Yep the company caved into their client's anger. Thats the only issue in this particular case.
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Yeah...
and no... sorta...
I'm kinda interested in this "anger".
The anger that would lead someone to pull rank to get some peon fired just 'cuz he doesn't share the same political view.
I happen to think that's huge.... and new. At least I've never heard of it before. At least so blatently. If you have other examples please do correct me.
It's not only a question of why that seemed to be an acceptable move to them... but... Why is the climate such that this lameness is defended by citing all these 'employers rights' laws or whatever, here in this forum?
It represents a shift... the variety of which hardly seems to get noticed and then passes into some weird sort of common acceptability... Inch by strange inch.
Same as it ever was.... but wasn't.
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You really think this is the first time a client pulled rank on some company to hurt somebody for persoinal reasons or the first time a person got fired for some political bs.
Nash I'm curious, why not just say that you think this is some evil Bush thing and be done with it?
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Nash I'm curious, why not just say that you think this is some evil Bush thing and be done with it?
Because it's not an evil Bush thing.
It's the dumbing down of everything. It's reducing things to absurd levels and debating from 2000 feet underground, pretending as if it were actually above ground.
It's the stoopid watermelon that happens, the stoopid reasons for it happening, and our stupid justifications for why it happened.
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I'm curious have politics ever been intelligent?
Not in the memory of my lifetime. Cerainly not in the 1990s, all of them behaved like children...
In fact I'm personally insulted by almost every stump speach, certainly every one so far thast I heard from the two presidential candidates..
For example Kerry says he will create new jobs by taxing the "rich" (those making over $200,000 by his definition) well since many small businesses and entrepreneurs are sole proprietorshis I guess that will really help their hiring. Or that he will save manufacturing jobs by stopping compaies from shipping their paper headquarters to Bermuda - thus incresing their tax burden.. Guess where they will cut expenses?
Its as ridiculous as saying that you will save jobs in california by stopping firms from enjoying the advantages of incorporating in delaware..
Anyway thats what I thought as I drove through Silicon Valley today and saw all the empty office bulidings with proprety for lease signs on them. Yea Kerry will bring all those jobs back...
Only an idiot would buy that...
I'd complain about the bush soundbites too but I usually change the channel cuz I cant stand listyening to him speak so badly...
And people are surprised as to why I dont bother votiong..
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WTF? There's something backwards in this whole story. Isn't it usually the COMPANY who curries favor with the CLIENT by providing gifts, e.g., tickets to see the President speak? Why should a CLIENT be providing gifts to a COMPANY?
And does not a West Virginia school district have better uses for it's money than a hiring public relations firm and paying it enough that it can go around gifting the companies it choose to do business with? I wonder how many teachers this district was forced to layoff last year for lack of funds?
Finally, at the bottom of the story, did you notice that two event goers were ARRESTED for wearing T-shirts that opposed the President? Say what you want, that is straight out of Germany in the 1930s. (I am not insinuating the Bush campaign had anything to do with the arrests, I am just dumbfounded that it occurred)
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Originally posted by oboe
WTF? There's something backwards in this whole story. Isn't it usually the COMPANY who curries favor with the CLIENT by providing gifts, e.g., tickets to see the President speak? Why should a CLIENT be providing gifts to a COMPANY?
Kinda makes poking your client in the eye all the more stupid don't it? Hmmm... what did Mr Bonehead have to say:
"To some degree I can see her point of view," Hiller said. "Advertising is all about having the perfect tan and driving a cool car. It's all about image."
And does not a West Virginia school district have better uses for it's money than a hiring public relations firm and paying it enough that it can go around gifting the companies it choose to do business with? I wonder how many teachers this district was forced to layoff last year for lack of funds?
Lets get the story first.
Finally, at the bottom of the story, did you notice that two event goers were ARRESTED for wearing T-shirts that opposed the President? Say what you want, that is straight out of Germany in the 1930s. (I am not insinuating the Bush campaign had anything to do with the arrests, I am just dumbfounded that it occurred)
Heh... a fine example of lefty spin. Pay attention, different (4th of July) event. Fine, arrest was too extreme, but then given the left's attitude of pure hatred, why might authorities not want people showing up with the sole purpose of pissing people off? I wonder (wait, I know... so they can "express themselves"
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Neither BS or Fubar.
It is however the way it is.
I have a buisness.
The ONLY reason to have an employee is to help increase my profits.
Im not in buisness to break even Im in buisness to make money.
I dont hire people just to be a nice guy. I hire people to help me make more money.
If you intentionaly do things to annoy one of my customers Your going to cost me that cutomers buisness and possably any buisness that that cusomer might have refered to me to other people in the future.
And just as sure as a happy and satisfied customer is the best form of advertisement.
A Dissatisfied customer is sure to tell everyone "dont use this guy because..."
In fact an unhappy customer is far more likely to spread the word about how unhappy that person was with you then a happy one.
One only needs to look at these boards to see how true that is.
I never once said anything about doing anything illegaly or unacceptable to make me money. In fact I never even hinted at it
What I said is what I said.
Your job and sole reason for being an employee is to help me make money(Legally)
And when the time comes when you cost me more money to have you as an employee, or through your actions cost me current and potential future buisness the therfore money.
Then you have outlived your usefullness. And you will be fired. and I will find someone else who does not do that and who does make me money.
You dont have to like it. but thats the way it is.
Originally posted by Nash
BS.
Well.... true... but.... simplistic.
Because there's lotsa ways to make your company money. It's clear that not all of them fall within acceptable boundries. Some are downright illegal, as we're well aware.
So your logic is completely FUBAR, if it is in fact in the service of trying to make a point.
This is what I'm saying... Because again this is exactly the kinda thinking brought to bear on such issues over and over again and it is mind numbingly.... what word can I use?
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Originally posted by oboe
WTF? There's something backwards in this whole story. Isn't it usually the COMPANY who curries favor with the CLIENT by providing gifts, e.g., tickets to see the President speak? Why should a CLIENT be providing gifts to a COMPANY?
And does not a West Virginia school district have better uses for it's money than a hiring public relations firm and paying it enough that it can go around gifting the companies it choose to do business with? I wonder how many teachers this district was forced to layoff last year for lack of funds?
Finally, at the bottom of the story, did you notice that two event goers were ARRESTED for wearing T-shirts that opposed the President? Say what you want, that is straight out of Germany in the 1930s. (I am not insinuating the Bush campaign had anything to do with the arrests, I am just dumbfounded that it occurred)
BINGO!
They were 2 different events, but it shows a pattern of behavior by the police.
Originally posted by Tumor
Heh... a fine example of lefty spin. Pay attention, different (4th of July) event. Fine, arrest was too extreme, but then given the left's attitude of pure hatred, why might authorities not want people showing up with the sole purpose of pissing people off? I wonder (wait, I know... so they can "express themselves"
All this reference to "lefty hate" baffles me. It is the right that practices the politics of hate...as your post demonstrates.
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Yes. Obviously these two incidents prove that there is a well documented patter that the police are nothing more than Gestapho-like militia bent on their own secret agendas.
Vote Kerry or we will all suffer a fate worse than death.
Bush = Hitler
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yes.. it is evident that rpm is coming unraveled... he will soon move to san francisco taking nothing with him but his puter and tinfoil hat.
lazs
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A classic example of the essentially flawed liberal form of thinking. one cannot blame RPM, he is the product of a philosphy that espouses irrationality and irresponsibilty without consequence. his outrage is justified to anyone one of his and Ms. Hiller's political leaning. they don't see that behavior as wrong.