Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Axis vs Allies => Topic started by: TheBeeg on August 22, 2004, 02:10:52 PM
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I've been flight simming for about 6 years in FA, AH, WB and WW2OL There seems to be what I perceive to be some kind of urban legend that a head on attack is somewhat akin to having a romantic relationship with one's mother. What gives? At least from a historical perspective, it is my understanding that Dick Bong whom I understand to be America's #1 scoring ace during the war used the head on as his primary tactic. Ofcourse he flew a P38 with all his nastiness right in the nose and the maneuverability of a pallet of bricks so it's understandable. I personally like the head on attack whenever I'm in a less maneuverable airplane and most specially when the enemy comes straight at me giving me no choice but to fire or attempt to side swerve out of his way which to me isn't a good idea. I say kill the bastage at the first opportunity and go on with my life. This isn't a troll I'm really curious about what makes this such a hot topic. Until I get a satisfactory answer believe me, I'm gonna spit in your face before you do it to me :D
TheBeeg
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lets put it this way who ever is stupid enough to HO a spit Mkv or anyone plane with hizooka's or a 190A8/110G2 deserve to die.
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Originally posted by TheBeeg
I've been flight simming for about 6 years in FA, AH, WB and WW2OL There seems to be what I perceive to be some kind of urban legend that a head on attack is somewhat akin to having a romantic relationship with one's mother. What gives? At least from a historical perspective, it is my understanding that Dick Bong whom I understand to be America's #1 scoring ace during the war used the head on as his primary tactic. Ofcourse he flew a P38 with all his nastiness right in the nose and the maneuverability of a pallet of bricks so it's understandable. I personally like the head on attack whenever I'm in a less maneuverable airplane and most specially when the enemy comes straight at me giving me no choice but to fire or attempt to side swerve out of his way which to me isn't a good idea. I say kill the bastage at the first opportunity and go on with my life. This isn't a troll I'm really curious about what makes this such a hot topic. Until I get a satisfactory answer believe me, I'm gonna spit in your face before you do it to me :D
TheBeeg
I agree.
eskimo
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I think its looked upon with disdain as a tactic because it's perceived that it takes far less talent/knowledge to point your nose at an oncoming plane and spray than it does to maneuver onto an opponent's six or gain another angle for a shootdown.
Clearly it was used with regularity irl ... because those guys weren't generally interested in the 'challenge' of the dogfight or energy fight or angles fight (or whatever) -- they were interested in killing the bad guy before he kilt them.
It's a bit of a conundrum, I know. But it's probably rooted at least partly in the differences with which players approach this game. When the differing schools of thought cross paths, somebody gets pissed off.
Personally, I rarely take the HO shot. I've discovered I generallly suck at it, and I am (almost) always in the plane with a gun package poorly suited for the task. i.e. no cannon, low-calibre mg's, low ammo load, poor hitting power, short convergence, etc. Plus, net lag really messes with my judgment on the shot.
But mostly ... I'm one of those who relishes the 'dogfight' over the 'hit and run.'
What really gets me is the guys who complain about it on ch1, then do it themselves.
Splash1
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I think Dennis just about summed it up. I usually avoid the head on shot for a couple reasons, A) I suck at them... dunno why I just can't hit squat. B) I'm usually fairly confident I have at least a 50/50 chance of out manuvering my oponent for a less dangerous shot.
That being said there are times when I will take it. To me factors like the firepower of my plane and durability vs my oponent. If I'm in a hellcat I'll HO a zeke since I feel a have a decent chance of coming out on top. It's like any other attribute of my plane, just like speed, climb, turn, etc.
On the other hand I've been on the other side when I've been working the dogfight, getting the angles and I can see that I'm going to end up behind him and have a shot when suddenly (and it always seems like spits for some reason) the guy chops throttle and haules his nose up at me and starts spraying. And yes I do get mad when that happens. Usually not enough to start pissing and moaning on channel 1, most my smack talk gets filtered by the screen. But yeah it seems like a cop out to me, espcially against a less experienced adversary... "damnit I'm better than that guy I should beat him, he cheated by taking the HO..." sort of mentality.
Course I've been the newb enough times to understand if someone is flying rings around me I'm going to take whatever shot I can get.... a 50/50 head on is better odds than if I fought the "good fight" against some of these people. :)
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Thanks.
You and Dennis have clarified a couple of things. Since I'm of the school which says kill the bastages and let God sort them out, I suspect I'll continue taking whatever kind of shot I can to send them to Nirvana.
As far as outmaneuvering them, there's another conumdrum (like that word) running around in my head. How come somebody like me who has over 3,000 hrs. flying in real airplanes doesn't get any benefit whatsoever in these sims huh? And believe me I'm not the only RL pilot who will tell you that. I suspect that it has to do with the fact that the flight modeling in here is so simplified that it actually boils down to the skills required to play any video game. Since my original video game was PONG you can probably surmise that my hand-eye coordination is somewhat dulled so that's another reason why I'm gonna keep killing them any way I can. :lol
TheBeeg
Originally posted by Soulyss
I think Dennis just about summed it up. I usually avoid the head on shot for a couple reasons, A) I suck at them... dunno why I just can't hit squat. B) I'm usually fairly confident I have at least a 50/50 chance of out manuvering my oponent for a less dangerous shot.
That being said there are times when I will take it. To me factors like the firepower of my plane and durability vs my oponent. If I'm in a hellcat I'll HO a zeke since I feel a have a decent chance of coming out on top. It's like any other attribute of my plane, just like speed, climb, turn, etc.
On the other hand I've been on the other side when I've been working the dogfight, getting the angles and I can see that I'm going to end up behind him and have a shot when suddenly (and it always seems like spits for some reason) the guy chops throttle and haules his nose up at me and starts spraying. And yes I do get mad when that happens. Usually not enough to start pissing and moaning on channel 1, most my smack talk gets filtered by the screen. But yeah it seems like a cop out to me, espcially against a less experienced adversary... "damnit I'm better than that guy I should beat him, he cheated by taking the HO..." sort of mentality.
Course I've been the newb enough times to understand if someone is flying rings around me I'm going to take whatever shot I can get.... a 50/50 head on is better odds than if I fought the "good fight" against some of these people. :)
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Originally posted by TheBeeg
Thanks.
You and Dennis have clarified a couple of things. Since I'm of the school which says kill the bastages and let God sort them out, I suspect I'll continue taking whatever kind of shot I can to send them to Nirvana.
As far as outmaneuvering them, there's another conumdrum (like that word) running around in my head. How come somebody like me who has over 3,000 hrs. flying in real airplanes doesn't get any benefit whatsoever in these sims huh? And believe me I'm not the only RL pilot who will tell you that. I suspect that it has to do with the fact that the flight modeling in here is so simplified that it actually boils down to the skills required to play any video game. Since my original video game was PONG you can probably surmise that my hand-eye coordination is somewhat dulled so that's another reason why I'm gonna keep killing them any way I can. :lol
TheBeeg
Partially true, but the main difference is that it takes a completely different skill set to dogfight than to fly IRL.
I have thousands of hours experience driving cars. That does not mean that IRL I could win a car race, or beat an experienced 13 year old kid at a car racing game.
eskimo
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First pass HO is forbidden in my book. But once you pass for the first time, anything is fair game.
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Originally posted by TheBeeg
I've been flight simming for about 6 years in FA, AH, WB and WW2OL There seems to be what I perceive to be some kind of urban legend that a head on attack is somewhat akin to having a romantic relationship with one's mother. What gives? At least from a historical perspective, it is my understanding that Dick Bong whom I understand to be America's #1 scoring ace during the war used the head on as his primary tactic. Ofcourse he flew a P38 with all his nastiness right in the nose and the maneuverability of a pallet of bricks so it's understandable. I personally like the head on attack whenever I'm in a less maneuverable airplane and most specially when the enemy comes straight at me giving me no choice but to fire or attempt to side swerve out of his way which to me isn't a good idea. I say kill the bastage at the first opportunity and go on with my life. This isn't a troll I'm really curious about what makes this such a hot topic. Until I get a satisfactory answer believe me, I'm gonna spit in your face before you do it to me :D
TheBeeg
Search help and training under HO and you'll find this question asked and answered a number of times. New guys ask this question a lot. You'll find lots of help in there on both avoiding head-ons and what you should be doing instead of going for the HO.
The single biggest reason why not to take a HO shot is - Why would you take any option in a fight that gives your opponent an equal or better opportunity of killing you ?
There is always a better option !
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Originally posted by TheBeeg
Thanks.
You and Dennis have clarified a couple of things. Since I'm of the school which says kill the bastages and let God sort them out, I suspect I'll continue taking whatever kind of shot I can to send them to Nirvana.
As far as outmaneuvering them, there's another conumdrum (like that word) running around in my head. How come somebody like me who has over 3,000 hrs. flying in real airplanes doesn't get any benefit whatsoever in these sims huh? And believe me I'm not the only RL pilot who will tell you that. I suspect that it has to do with the fact that the flight modeling in here is so simplified that it actually boils down to the skills required to play any video game. Since my original video game was PONG you can probably surmise that my hand-eye coordination is somewhat dulled so that's another reason why I'm gonna keep killing them any way I can. :lol
TheBeeg
It's very possible and likely that the reason they keep out-maneuvering you, is because you are going for HO's.
It's a vicious circle , you go for HO , you lose position and angles immediately, handing the advantage to your opponent. The well timed lead turn is probably the most important basic skill in the game (not just TnB , E-fighting as well ) you cannot lead turn and make a HO attack, they are mutually exclusive.
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Originally posted by Redd
Search help and training under HO and you'll find this question asked and answered a number of times. New guys ask this question a lot. You'll find lots of help in there on both avoiding head-ons and what you should be doing instead of going for the HO.
The single biggest reason why not to take a HO shot is - Why would you take any option in a fight that gives your opponent an equal or better opportunity of killing you ?
There is always a better option !
Sometimes it is clearly the best choice. A prime example is a 1:2 knifefight against 2 good planes/pilots. If you are in this situation, you are very likely to lose. By taking the HO, you stand a 50:50 (or better or worse) chance of turning the odds to 1:1, where you may stand a fair to good chance of winning.
Most of the 1:2, 1:3, & 1:4 situations that I have won, I have eliminated at least 1 con with a HO. The worse the odds, the more important it becomes to even the odds as soon as possible.
eskimo
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Personally I am with TheBeeg on this one. I call myself a fair to average virtual pilot simply because I get impatient and don't always have hours and hours to "hone" my "leet skillz" online as some other players do regualrly. With that said I don't care if its a 1 vs 1 or a 1 vs 10 I am going to take any and all shots that present themselves unless I am in a "competition" that specifically calls for no HO shots before the first merge. Because in AH arenas you will be outnumbered rather quickly and most likely will be low and slow if you stay in a protracted "dogfight". So I think its best to use whatever is available if your primary goal of playing these games is to return to base "alive" more times than your "enemy".
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Originally posted by eskimo2
Sometimes it is clearly the best choice. A prime example is a 1:2 knifefight against 2 good planes/pilots. If you are in this situation, you are very likely to lose. By taking the HO, you stand a 50:50 (or better or worse) chance of turning the odds to 1:1, where you may stand a fair to good chance of winning.
Most of the 1:2, 1:3, & 1:4 situations that I have won, I have eliminated at least 1 con with a HO. The worse the odds, the more important it becomes to even the odds as soon as possible.
eskimo
You are correct , in that situation, but I was responding to his question which more relates to a 1-1 engagement/merge. He is more sounding like someone who uses it at merges as his first option/priority.
"I personally like the head on attack whenever I'm in a less maneuverable airplane and most specially when the enemy comes straight at me giving me no choice but to fire or attempt to side swerve out of his way which to me isn't a good idea "
Outnumbered and down and dirty you take any option presented of course.
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No, no, no Redd, you may have misunderstood what I said or maybe I didn't express it correctly. I don't go looking for the HO (e.g. maneuver to get in front of you), I just don't shy away from it because of some taboo which still eludes me. One person (forgive me, I forgot who) mentioned that somewhere in the help it might be explained but everybody else is still talking about why they do it or why they don't but nobody has said something to the effect that it gives this guy or that guy the advantage because the packets go backwards when you're higher than your oponent or something like that. What I will say is that unless somebody can prove to me that because of some definitive reason the HO shot is unsportsmanslike then come at me directly and you get a mouth full of lead, ok? :D
Beeg
Originally posted by Redd
You are correct , in that situation, but I was responding to his question which more relates to a 1-1 engagement/merge. He is more sounding like someone who uses it at merges as his first option/priority.
"I personally like the head on attack whenever I'm in a less maneuverable airplane and most specially when the enemy comes straight at me giving me no choice but to fire or attempt to side swerve out of his way which to me isn't a good idea "
Outnumbered and down and dirty you take any option presented of course.
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Originally posted by eskimo2
Partially true, but the main difference is that it takes a completely different skill set to dogfight than to fly IRL.
I have thousands of hours experience driving cars. That does not mean that IRL I could win a car race, or beat an experienced 13 year old kid at a car racing game.
eskimo
No the video portion of his post is absolutely true.
AH will give you a million bad habits for real flying
its like, how to put this
playing a video game.
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Originally posted by TheBeeg
No, no, no Redd, you may have misunderstood what I said or maybe I didn't express it correctly. I don't go looking for the HO (e.g. maneuver to get in front of you), I just don't shy away from it because of some taboo which still eludes me. One person (forgive me, I forgot who) mentioned that somewhere in the help it might be explained but everybody else is still talking about why they do it or why they don't but nobody has said something to the effect that it gives this guy or that guy the advantage because the packets go backwards when you're higher than your oponent or something like that. What I will say is that unless somebody can prove to me that because of some definitive reason the HO shot is unsportsmanslike then come at me directly and you get a mouth full of lead, ok? :D
Beeg
Ok, understand what you are saying better now. No I don't shy away from it because of what anyone whines on ch 1 or because of any unwritten code, but I do shy away from it . I don't whine on Ch1 when people do take them either - it's their 15 bucks.
But
If someone is flying straight at me and coming straight for my nose, the last thing I would do is go for a HO shot, and if you are taking that shot opportunity you are missing out on better options.
If he is flying straight at you to go for the HO - even better , let him take the shot , avoid it and go for the angles , the %'s will be way in your favour in the long term.
Remember that everyone that is flying straight at you is not necessarily doing it to HO you (even though it can seem like it some days) they are flying at you with the intention of merging, gaining advantage/angles and then trying to kill you. That is my intention everytime I fly towards another plane ( doesn't always work of course ..lol)
So I guess in summary , I am still saying , yes you should shy away from HO's , but not for taboos and whiners, for your own benefit and advantage.
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Originally posted by TheBeeg
How come somebody like me who has over 3,000 hrs. flying in real airplanes doesn't get any benefit whatsoever in these sims huh?
Because, and this is a recurring theme in your posts, this is not real life, it is a video game. A very good video game, but a game nonetheless.
RE: HO's, I rarely take or get hit by HO's because if it has come to that, I have done something horribly wrong to put myself in that position to begin with. If I am in the middle of a fight and a front quarter shot comes along, I take those, but "fly straight and level firing guns from 1.5k out" shots I dont.
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you take the shot you are given
one on one with a pilot I know will not take the Ho, I will refrain & t&b
--- that said, it is usually not the case
some ppl think any shot from their 11 to 1 oclock quarter is a HO, even after a loop or two
when out numbered and I have gonds (maybe a 30mm in the nose) - head on at your own risk :)
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I seldomly HO straight on since Shane taught me a few moves when I was even noobier. Here's the funny thing, I'm often accused of HOing when making a frontal quarter low deflection shot!!!!! I'm a pretty good deflection shooter and I actually like that shot because it's easy to gauge, hits often produce coolant/oil hits and a pilot wound to boost!!!!! What could be better than that? Oh, wait I remember!!!! In the Hurricane that often times creates a very gratifying *poof* as well. Shoot'm anyway you can taunt them irrespective of the outcome, It's the AH way no sense in bucking tradition.:D
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I think that true HOs only happen on long range merges, after the merge they are not HOs unless one plane extends dramatically. Once you are engaged, a face shot is not really a HO, it just means you got the angle a little faster than your enemy.
With that definition in mind I try to steer clear of the HO too. Largely for the reasons stated already but I wanted to add two small points.
1.) There are some guys in this game that are absolute snipers with their own HO shots. I have had the engine shot out of my Jug by a 109 pilot from extreme range. By all accounts the P47 should seek the Ho with the 109, but you never know who is on the other end of that HO and how good a shot they might be. Which leads me to reason number two.
2.) Other than trying to get your guns pointed at the enemy plane, the other half of ACM is trying to keep out of the enemies gun quadrant. Since nearly all fighter guns are fixed in a forward firing situation, almost half of the fight is to stay out of that cone. If you see him pointing at you, you should try to get out of his LOF not hold steady and stay in it.
...but thats just me...
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(QUOTE) HO Please explain why (UNQUOTE)
1. To kill quickly when you have superior armament.
2. To annoy those who consider themselves superior sticks.
3. To sustain the game's superior thread.
4. To kamikaze a superior opponent.
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Some people prefer sex with men, some people prefer HOs. I'm not gonna tell either one they shouldn't do it. But that doesn't mean I shall partake in it.
Let people play the game they want, play it the way you want. If you can't find a happy medium then you're better off finding another game.
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Thanks Halo;
Not technical but most definetely reasons for why which is what I asked. I am more than ever convinced that the HO Taboo is solely an urban leyend not based on any kind of scientifically proven fact that it enhances or detracts from a players advantage. I suspect that just as in real life the outcome is decided strictly by who lands the greatest number of bullets on target.
Beeg
P.S. I will admit that it is a 50/50 proposition as to whether you're going to come out smiling or toothless.
Originally posted by Halo
(QUOTE) HO Please explain why (UNQUOTE)
1. To kill quickly when you have superior armament.
2. To annoy those who consider themselves superior sticks.
3. To sustain the game's superior thread.
4. To kamikaze a superior opponent.
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Originally posted by Redd
If someone is flying straight at me and coming straight for my nose, the last thing I would do is go for a HO shot, and if you are taking that shot opportunity you are missing out on better options.
If he is flying straight at you to go for the HO - even better , let him take the shot , avoid it and go for the angles , the %'s will be way in your favour in the long term.
Remember that everyone that is flying straight at you is not necessarily doing it to HO you (even though it can seem like it some days) they are flying at you with the intention of merging, gaining advantage/angles and then trying to kill you. That is my intention everytime I fly towards another plane ( doesn't always work of course)
Wise man here....
First person to act on the merge will 75% chance of wining the fight... you have gained the angles you need to win...
I actually yell at my guys at practice for trying to take the Head On... I will break them of this one day... but I can't watch them all the time.
But I don't take the Head On... but that is just my opinion...
Stream
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Originally posted by TheBeeg
Thanks Halo;
Not technical but most definetely reasons for why which is what I asked. I am more than ever convinced that the HO Taboo is solely an urban leyend not based on any kind of scientifically proven fact that it enhances or detracts from a players advantage. I suspect that just as in real life the outcome is decided strictly by who lands the greatest number of bullets on target.
Beeg
P.S. I will admit that it is a 50/50 proposition as to whether you're going to come out smiling or toothless.
This is exactly what I'm trying to say. Why accept a 50/50 outcome ?
I give up :)
I tell you what , do one thing - pop in a see Ghosth sometime - he is a very good instructor and very experienced. Ask him whether not pursuing/taking head-ons is sensible ACM or urban taboo.
Anyway have fun :)
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Originally posted by Halo
(QUOTE) HO Please explain why (UNQUOTE)
1. To kill quickly when you have superior armament.
2. To annoy those who consider themselves superior sticks.
3. To sustain the game's superior thread.
4. To kamikaze a superior opponent.
I have to assume this is tongue in cheek.
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Smoke em if ya got em ... or dont.
Ho's are generally a mutual voluntary thang anyhoo. Two knights on their winged stallions make eye contact at 5k or so and it's love at first sight.
(Switch to slow-mo clip of two pilots in flightgear running for each other in a flowery meadow blowing lead laced kisses at each other the entire way until one or both of them either fall to pieces or not. Maybe they collide in a firely embrace!)
Nonononononono! This won't do! Let's switch to an alternate ending!
(Switch to slow-mo clip of two pilots ... one in flightgear and one dressed as a matador .... )
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IMO, if you're in a merge (initial or otherwise) that is HO or nearly so, and you think you can get the HO shot without putting yourself in extreme danger (you have nose mounted cannons and you know he doesn't so you can shoot at long range, then dodge his shot; or you are off center but can stomp a rudder and line him up as you pass, etc...) and you don't take the shot; you're a fool.
It's like not taking a snapshot because you think it's somehow inferior to having manuevered around in a furball to a bogey's 6 before shooting.
A kill is a kill is a kill; whether by HO, snapshot, blind lead turn, BnZ on the unsuspecting furballer, or having manuevered in a furball to a bogey's rear quarter as he nears the top of an oblique turn for which he really didn't have the energy an shows his planform at D200 right in the center of my sights so I get to see my guns shred his aircraft to pieces, or even explode just before I stall and spin out of control. They all feel good; although the kills where you get to see pieces falling off the NME are the most satisfying.