Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Vermillion on October 27, 1999, 08:10:00 AM
-
I noticed last night that alot of people were asking about the performance characteristics of the N1K2-J George or "Niki" for short. How does it climb? Is it fast? How does it compare to a Pony in turns? All good questions.
Well, I have some performance graphs on my website that may he clear up the N1K2's (and other aircraft in AH's) relative performance for some people.
In trying to compare performances, substitute the 109K4's performance for the 109G10. The 109G in these graphs are for the earlier 109G6.
Links (one example below):
Late-Mid War Pacific Theater Aircraft: F4U-1, A6M5, F6F, Ki-84, N1K2, P38J, P-47D, P51D
Climb Rate vs. Altitude (http://web.mountain.net/~arringto/graphics/graphs/l_p_c.htm)
Indicated Airspeed vs. Altitude (http://web.mountain.net/~arringto/graphics/graphs/l_p_s.htm)
Sustained Turn Rate vs. Altitude (http://web.mountain.net/~arringto/graphics/graphs/l_p_t.htm)
Mid War Russian Front Aircraft: Fw190A4, Me-110C4, Me-109F, Me-109G, Fw-190A8, La-5N, Yak-9
Climb Rate vs. Altitude (http://web.mountain.net/~arringto/graphics/graphs/m_r_c.htm)
Indicated Airspeed vs. Altitude (http://web.mountain.net/~arringto/graphics/graphs/m_r_s.htm)
Sustained Turn Rate vs. Altitude (http://web.mountain.net/~arringto/graphics/graphs/m_r_t.htm)
Late War European Theater Aircraft: Me-109G, Me-109K4, Fw-190A8, Fw-190D9, P-47D, P-51D, Spitfire Mk IX, Me-262
Climb Rate vs. Altitude (http://web.mountain.net/~arringto/graphics/graphs/l_e_c.htm)
Indicated Airspeed vs. Altitude (http://web.mountain.net/~arringto/graphics/graphs/l_e_s.htm)
Sustained Turn Rate vs. Altitude (http://web.mountain.net/~arringto/graphics/graphs/l_e_t.htm)
(http://web.mountain.net/~arringto/graphics/graphs/l_p_s.gif)
NOTE: These graphs are screenshots taken from the original AW2 Box set. These graphs were constructed from orignal NASM and NACA data, and not from the games flightmodels. They may or may not represent exact flight characteristics in AH, and are simple useful for comparing general performance characteristics between aircraft. It should also be noted that these performances are for lightly loaded aircraft in the clean condition. In other words if you load up the aircraft with more weight (fuel, rockets, bombs) performance will degrade.
------------------
Vermillion
AH's: verm, **MOL**
WB's: (verm--), **MOL**, Men of Leisure,
AW: Verm, ACCS
[This message has been edited by Vermillion (edited 10-27-1999).]
-
Verm,
the N1K1 is used not the N1K2 in the charts
-
Aircat its a misprint.
Long ago, when they originally announced the plane in AW, it was called the N1K1, until it was found that the performance data that they had was actually for the N1K2.
Don't ask me how, when, where or why, but I have had it confirmed from the highest sources that the data is for the N1K2.
------------------
Vermillion
WB's: (verm--), **MOL**, Men of Leisure,
(http://web.mountain.net/~arringto/emote/Snoopy.gif)
-
Vermillion;
Extremely good post, Well Done!
I did not have alot of time last night to fly or fight against the NiKi, but here is my take.
Fighting it:
You better decide very quickly if you have any angle or E advantage before starting a DF. More than 90 degrees or less E, maybe better to disengage at max range (spelled - IMA DOT). This plane has devastating fire power, head on merges are suicide.
I killed 2 Niki's, but each time my aspect was 90 degrees or less when I engaged, roughly Co-E. My Spit easily stayed at the elbow or I maintiained a good enough position to counter any verticle moves.
I was shot down 3 times by Niki's, flying in my Spit (UberSpit - as the taunt goes (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) ). All 3 times the Niki had a healthy E advantage, so it is hard to evaluate this completely.
The first was a partial miss on the 1st pass, but half my damage entrees turned red. This guy made 3 passes on me to finally finnish me off. The fight started with this guy on my six, I made my first break at D-2.5 . I wanted to try and get him to turn, see if I could stall him in the canyons. LOL, no luck at this, he was a smart cooky. (I WAS peddling my little heart out (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) )
The other 2 kills were "No Ping" one pass kills, and were at 180 aspect. Bag it Munch Boy (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif), I just blew up. I did not see any tracers, but my Net connection was bad last night.
WATCH your lead turn young UberSpit, for death looms near. It comes with the sound of Thunder and strikes with split tongue Lightning.
IMO this plane will cause major strategy changes to the current arena, or you can justly become, "Banthar Fodder".
Flying it:
The first thing you notice is that it has really nice windows. Visibility was really good, particularly in the rear views. Did the British ever catch on to this idea with their Spits? Nice to see what is behind you.
It trimmed nicely, might be still a Beta thing, but the 100-250 IAS changes for aileron trim seemed MUCH less. Comparing this to a Spit or P51.
I had great success performing Hammer Head verticle turns, it pivots nicely on the wing tip (left). This baby really hangs by the prop! Kicking the rudder at 80-100 IAS the transistion to vertical dive is quite controlable. It does not want to "flop" over to a wings level attitude nearly as bad, not requiring much aileron input.
Pulling out of vertical dives was also impressive, beats the Spit here. The Spit just wants to black you out. Exciting to pull out at 400+ IAS and see the woolballs on the Sheepy's.
Mino
-
My one and only fight while flying a Nik showed me that it can seriousy out turn a p51. I caughtone trying to do a high yo-yo on me and as he came down I set up for a high angle snapshot. I saw three hits on him and the poor guys wing fell right off. My opinion of the Nik...it can turn AND it has a punch! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Guess I'll have to see more action to REALLY see what it can do though
-floo- fangs out
------------------
333rd Red Dawgs
JG 5 Eismeer
-
My opinion on N1K2 is bit negative, it is very great looking and even did increase my FPS(!!!) to standable levels, but it is way too easy plane I say.
- Forget things below if you dont want to read reasons (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) -
4x20mm, easy flight characterics, considerable fast, very good T&B plane, has nice amount of fuel... but wait a minute, im getting the picture, if I can get 7 kills in sortie with P133 and still have ammo left, without any special flying tricks, im afraid what it can do in hands of everyone.
N1K2 doesn't really seem to require skills to fly it, so it's perfect plane to jump into fight where is planes fightning with low energy and ruin whole fight (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
I am always bit negative against japanese planes if they seem to be nearly perfect, they simply can ruin the fight even if its just driven by some skilless pilot.
Ps. I wish we get new graphics on other planes as well, would greatly increase FPS (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
-
It's gonna be a dweebmobile. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
-
Agreed, just like a WB Hurri II but 50mph faster.
--ra--
-
You guys are all right, its an outstanding airplane. Nice all arounder.
I will make a bet tho.
In 2 months, once the newness wears off, I bet you will see very few N1K2's in the sky, and they will be either new people or experten in them.
Why? Because while it is certainly a capable ride, its not the best in anything, and its not a glamorous or well known ride.
People just haven't grown up hearing about a Kawanishi N1K2 "George". It certainly doesn't compare to legendary names like Spitfires, Focke-Wulfs, Mustangs, Thunderbolts, Messerschmitts, Zero's, and Lightnings.
You may laugh, but the plane is just as capable in AW, and its flown only by a few.
PS: I was one of those few, so I guess I am truely a dweeb.
PPS: Expect me to fly in here as my ride of choice, so I am doubley a dweeb.
------------------
Vermillion
WB's: (verm--), **MOL**, Men of Leisure,
(http://web.mountain.net/~arringto/emote/Snoopy.gif)
-
Can someone please explain the meaning/origins of this "dweeb" crap?
-
Fishu;
I thought about your ideas and along the same lines after reading your post.
I realize this is Beta and the plane will be modified as time goes on.
Heck, I even got it airborne with ease, with a de-functly calibrated joystick.
Juzz;
Not sure of the origin of Dweeb. But for its foundation, it is of one group of individuals considering themselves superior over another group of individuals. Much like the word Dork. Or for that matter like many racial, geographic, or religous nickmaimes.
Basically, if you GET shot down more than you SHOOT down, you are a Dweeb. Or if you know very little about a Sim game and / or planes you are a Dweeb.
I know, I am one. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Mino
[This message has been edited by Minotaur (edited 10-27-1999).]
[This message has been edited by Minotaur (edited 10-27-1999).]
[This message has been edited by Minotaur (edited 10-27-1999).]
-
Finally a plane with 4 20s. Now we have a plane where one doesn't have to bother his head with all the fancy ACM technical stuff. Cause quite frankly, ACM is only gonna take you so far when you have 4v1 or worse odds.
I won last night a 4v1 fight where Spitfire and a N1K2 were coming from my high six and 2 N1K2s were coming from my high twelve roughly at the same time. No ammount of ACM is gonna get you out of a mess like that, if you can't finish off the enemy with the first shot you get.
More on the guns' lethality, I had 186 ( 64 used, 16/kill ) rounds left on one sortie and had 4 kills already. I don't think I survived ever long enough to spend all ammo to see how many kills I could get though, going into fights like above with rather poor odds.
IMO at the moment this is the most brutal plane in AH. Plane with which shooting becomes as important or perhaps even more important than ACM. And that's the kind of planes I like.
//fats
-
Vert, i'm looking at other portions of your site.. somewhat suprized about climb rates for late war planes...
Spit 9 climbing better then 190D and 109K ?
I understand that those are AW figures, but can you back them up with historical evidence ?
Thanks
fd
-
fd-Ski :
Sorry to say, all I have are the charts themselves.
When I put my website together way back when (2 years ago), I got an email from Kesmai asking that I document the source of the charts themselves, and I heartily complied (I had a reference but they wanted a more visible one).
But this lead to several extended e-mail discussions, concerning their origin, where the data came from, and how they were put together.
Now this was with "Jay", and I have forgotten which Jay it was, but at the time (if my memory serves me correcty) there were two Jay's at Kesmai, one of them Jay Littman, who is now at WB's.
But thats the story, sorry I don't have more.
------------------
Vermillion
WB's: (verm--), **MOL**, Men of Leisure,
(http://web.mountain.net/~arringto/emote/Snoopy.gif)
-
I'll have to try it. In AW the Niki was a wing ripper, causing you to very careful when B&Zing. Will it rip em in AH?
-
Juzz: Thou knowest not the secrets of Dweebery? Taketh thine unwashed arse to the following linke and purify thineself forthwith!
http://www.nitro.co.za/warbirds/BoD.html (http://www.nitro.co.za/warbirds/BoD.html)
Short version:
Dweeb - One who has no skill or one who succeeds without using skill.
Dweeb Plane - A plane that even a dweeb can do well in.
Shorter version:
Dweeb - Everybody but me.
Dweeb Plane - Anything I'm not flying right now.
[This message has been edited by funked (edited 10-27-1999).]
-
Speaking as one who likes Japanese and German aircraft, and who is quite tired of seeing all the Spitfires, I will be in the George. A lot. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
-
Sure the George seems like the best thing out there now, but just wait a little while and it will sink into mediocrity. Once structural limits are modeled that thing will pull wings right off, and sooner or later we'll have wulfies and corsairs that can outrun it easy and take some punishment from the 20's.
CW: pictures Niki on receieving end of 4 20mm cannons + machineguns fired from 190A8.... *drool*
-
Verm,
The reason it isnt flown in AW much anymore is that it is truly not an uberplane there. There are plenty of Pac planes i would prefer to fly (and I am a FR vet there...its all I ever fly in AW). The Nik cant turn with a Ki or a F6 and doesnt have the climb to keep up with an F4 which will rope it. It has some nice guns and speed and thats it.
Seems to me that the Nik here DOES have a good low speed turn rate. Granted I am still a dweeb here in AH but I entered a dogfite with a low and slow NIk in my spit and found him almost outturning me. We went through a number of revolutions and that Nik was able to turn with me.
Yes it could just be the fact that Im still a dweeb but come on now. Even I know how to yank and bank!
-Ding
-
"Once structural limits are modeled that thing will pull wings right off"
Wombat, there's no factual basis for that. Maybe it's like that in another sim, but there's nothing about the real George that suggests that would happen.
"and sooner or later we'll have wulfies and corsairs that can outrun it easy and take some punishment from the 20's."
Again, refer to the flight test data. It's not a slow plane at arena altitudes.
-
Is it just me or does the legend on the those late war Euro charts not match the data? There are colors on the legend that don't have a data trace on the chart, but there are 8 traces and 8 colors on the legend.
-
Funked thats because I had to use HyperSnaps (at that time "new") feature of taking D3D screenshots, and it sometimes did funking things to the colors, if you look at the charts you can pretty much deduce what the "strange" colored lines actually are.
Sorry bout that.
------------------
Vermillion
WB's: (verm--), **MOL**, Men of Leisure,
(http://web.mountain.net/~arringto/emote/Snoopy.gif)
-
Oh and Curly your right to a certain point (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
The N1K2 isn't an uberplane. Its just a plane that has nice characteristics in several category's (all the important ones to me).
It isn't the fastest, it can not climb the best, and it can't outturn the true TnB planes.
BUT it is fast, it does climb well, and it can turn excellently for a plane of its size and weight, and has excellent guns.
There is almost always a superior characteristics to whatever you are fighting.
Its just a good all arounder (like a P-38) that takes experience to know which attribute to exploit depending on what your engaged against.
An excellent aircraft, but not an uberplane.
PS: (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) It does outclimb and outtrun and F4U-1 at below 15000 ft, and if yah want I will prove it too yah, plus it accelerates MUCH faster <G>.
Cya old friend
------------------
Vermillion
WB's: (verm--), **MOL**, Men of Leisure,
(http://web.mountain.net/~arringto/emote/Snoopy.gif)
-
Thx Vermillion. Looks like those guys tested a sick Me 109K-4 if those traces are right. Everything else looks pretty good though. Fw 190D-9 climb looks too high, but the speed looks too slow - nowhere near what the RAE got.