Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: crowMAW on August 23, 2004, 11:42:37 PM
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Ripsnorted from yesterday's Chicago Trib.
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/specials/elections/chi-0408220342aug22,1,2523679.story?coll=chi-news-hed
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`This is what I saw that day'
By William B. Rood
Chicago Tribune
Published August 22, 2004
There were three swift boats on the river that day in Vietnam more than 35 years ago--three officers and 15 crew members. Only two of those officers remain to talk about what happened on February 28, 1969.
One is John Kerry, the Democratic presidential candidate who won a Silver Star for what happened on that date. I am the other.
For years, no one asked about those events. But now they are the focus of skirmishing in a presidential election with a group of swift boat veterans and others contending that Kerry didn't deserve the Silver Star for what he did on that day, or the Bronze Star and three Purple Hearts he was awarded for other actions.
Many of us wanted to put it all behind us--the rivers, the ambushes, the killing. Ever since that time, I have refused all requests for interviews about Kerry's service--even those from reporters at the Chicago Tribune, where I work.
But Kerry's critics, armed with stories I know to be untrue, have charged that the accounts of what happened were overblown. The critics have taken pains to say they're not trying to cast doubts on the merit of what others did, but their version of events has splashed doubt on all of us. It's gotten harder and harder for those of us who were there to listen to accounts we know to be untrue, especially when they come from people who were not there.
Even though Kerry's own crew members have backed him, the attacks have continued, and in recent days Kerry has called me and others who were with him in those days, asking that we go public with our accounts.
I can't pretend those calls had no effect on me, but that is not why I am writing this. What matters most to me is that this is hurting crewmen who are not public figures and who deserved to be honored for what they did. My intent is to tell the story here and to never again talk publicly about it.
I was part of the operation that led to Kerry's Silver Star. I have no firsthand knowledge of the events that resulted in his winning the Purple Hearts or the Bronze Star.
But on Feb. 28, 1969, I was officer in charge of PCF-23, one of three swift boats--including Kerry's PCF-94 and Lt. j.g. Donald Droz's PCF-43--that carried Vietnamese regional and Popular Force troops and a Navy demolition team up the Dong Cung, a narrow tributary of the Bay Hap River, to conduct a sweep in the area.
The approach of the noisy 50-foot aluminum boats, each driven by two huge 12-cylinder diesels and loaded down with six crew members, troops and gear, was no secret.
Ambushes were a virtual certainty, and that day was no exception.
INSTRUCTIONS FROM KERRY
The difference was that Kerry, who had tactical command of that particular operation, had talked to Droz and me beforehand about not responding the way the boats usually did to an ambush.
We agreed that if we were not crippled by the initial volley and had a clear fix on the location of the ambush, we would turn directly into it, focusing the boats' twin .50-caliber machine guns on the attackers and beaching the boats. We told our crews about the plan.
The Viet Cong in the area had come to expect that the heavily loaded boats would lumber on past an ambush, firing at the entrenched attackers, beaching upstream and putting troops ashore to sweep back down on the ambush site. Often, they were long gone by the time the troops got there.
The first time we took fire--the usual rockets and automatic weapons--Kerry ordered a "turn 90" and the three boats roared in on the ambush. It worked. We routed the ambush, killing three of the attackers. The troops, led by an Army adviser, jumped off the boats and began a sweep, which killed another half dozen VC, wounded or captured others and found weapons, blast masks and other supplies used to stage ambushes.
Meanwhile, Kerry ordered our boat to head upstream with his, leaving Droz's boat at the first site.
It happened again, another ambush. And again, Kerry ordered the turn maneuver, and again it worked. As we headed for the riverbank, I remember seeing a loaded B-40 launcher pointed at the boats. It wasn't fired as two men jumped up from their spider holes.
We called Droz's boat up to assist us, and Kerry, followed by one member of his crew, jumped ashore and chased a VC behind a hooch--a thatched hut--maybe 15 yards inland from the ambush site. Some who were there that day recall the man being wounded as he ran. Neither I nor Jerry Leeds, our boat's leading petty officer with whom I've checked my recollection of all these events, recalls that, which is no surprise. Recollections of those who go through experiences like that frequently differ.
With our troops involved in the sweep of the first ambush site, Richard Lamberson, a member of my crew, and I also went ashore to search the area. I was checking out the inside of the hooch when I heard gunfire nearby.
Not long after that, Kerry returned, reporting that he had killed the man he chased behind the hooch. He also had picked up a loaded B-40 rocket launcher, which we took back to our base in An Thoi after the operation.
John O'Neill, author of a highly critical account of Kerry's Vietnam service, describes the man Kerry chased as a "teenager" in a "loincloth." I have no idea how old the gunner Kerry chased that day was, but both Leeds and I recall that he was a grown man, dressed in the kind of garb the VC usually wore.
The man Kerry chased was not the "lone" attacker at that site, as O'Neill suggests. There were others who fled. There was also firing from the tree line well behind the spider holes and at one point, from the opposite riverbank as well. It was not the work of just one attacker.
Our initial reports of the day's action caused an immediate response from our task force headquarters in Cam Ranh Bay.
CONGRADULATORY MESSAGE
Known over radio circuits by the call sign "Latch," then-Capt. and now retired Rear Adm. Roy Hoffmann, the task force commander, fired off a message (http://images.chicagotribune.com/media/graphic/2004-08/13909193.jpg) congratulating the three swift boats, saying at one point that the tactic of charging the ambushes was a "shining example of completely overwhelming the enemy" and that it "may be the most efficacious method of dealing with small numbers of ambushers."
Hoffmann has become a leading critic of Kerry's and now says that what the boats did on that day demonstrated Kerry's inclination to be impulsive to a fault.
Our decision to use that tactic under the right circumstances was not impulsive but was the result of discussions well beforehand and a mutual agreement of all three boat officers.
It was also well within the aggressive tradition that was embraced by the late Adm. Elmo Zumwalt, then commander of U.S. Naval Forces, Vietnam. Months before that day in February, a fellow boat officer, Michael Bernique, was summoned to Saigon to explain to top Navy commanders why he had made an unauthorized run up the Giang Thanh River, which runs along the Vietnam-Cambodia border. Bernique, who speaks French fluently, had been told by a source in Ha Tien at the mouth of the river that a VC tax collector was operating upstream.
Ignoring the prohibition against it, Bernique and his crew went upstream and routed the VC, pursuing and killing several.
Instead of facing disciplinary action as he had expected, Bernique was given the Silver Star, and Zumwalt ordered other swifts, which had largely patrolled coastal waters, into the rivers.
The decision sent a clear message, underscored repeatedly by Hoffmann's congratulatory messages, that aggressive patrolling was expected and that well-timed, if unconventional, tactics like Bernique's were encouraged.
What we did on Feb. 28, 1969, was well in line with the tone set by our top commanders.
Zumwalt made that clear when he flew down to our base at An Thoi off the southern tip of Vietnam to pin the Silver Star on Kerry and assorted Bronze Stars and commendation medals on the rest of us.
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ERROR IN CITATION
My Bronze Star citation (http://images.chicagotribune.com/media/graphic/2004-08/13909195.jpg) , signed by Zumwalt, praised the charge tactic we used that day, saying the VC were "caught completely off guard."
There's at least one mistake in that citation. It incorrectly identifies the river where the main action occurred, a reminder that such documents were often done in haste and sometimes authored for their signers by staffers. It's a cautionary note for those trying to piece it all together. There's no final authority on something that happened so long ago--not the documents and not even the strained recollections of those of us who were there.
But I know that what some people are saying now is wrong. While they mean to hurt Kerry, what they're saying impugns others who are not in the public eye.
Men like Larry Lee, who was on our bow with an M-60 machine gun as we charged the riverbank, Kenneth Martin, who was in the .50-caliber gun tub atop our boat, and Benjamin Cueva, our engineman, who was at our aft gun mount suppressing the fire from the opposite bank.
Wayne Langhoffer and the other crewmen on Droz's boat went through even worse on April 12, 1969, when they saw Droz killed in a brutal ambush that left PCF-43 an abandoned pile of wreckage on the banks of the Duong Keo River. That was just a few months after the birth of his only child, Tracy.
The survivors of all these events are scattered across the country now.
Jerry Leeds lives in a tiny Kansas town where he built and sold a successful printing business. He owns a beautiful home with a lawn that sweeps to the edge of a small lake, which he also owns. Every year, flights of purple martins return to the stately birdhouses on the tall poles in his back yard.
Cueva, recently retired, has raised three daughters and is beloved by his neighbors for all the years he spent keeping their cars running. Lee is a senior computer programmer in Kentucky, and Lamberson finished a second military career in the Army.
With the debate over that long-ago day in February, they're all living that war another time.
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Good read. God bless them all.
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Contrary to what some would want you to believe, medals are investigated before award. They don't pass them out like candy.
to all the men who put themself in harm's way. It's a shame they would try and belittle their service.
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I wonder how many here ever thought that one day they'd end up trying to disgrace a man for his military service.
In your wildest dreams.... who here would have thought that they'd one day be doing that?
Let me ask you this, now... Who here thought that they'd be doing this as a result of a short, fat political wonk desk jockey who never served but has a knack for making people believe, say and do things that they would have considered repulsive just months ago?
Lookit what happened.
So one more question.
What's your limit? Do you have a sense of one? How low will you allow yourself to be taken?
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Kerry is the one who made his service a central campaign issue, so his record deserves looking into. I myself find it very odd that Kerry could receive 3 purple hearts and never miss a day of duty from injury...in fact I find it very questionable.
Kerry wants a free ride on his war service yet can't stand the heat when fellow vets voice their views?
Kerry is stupid for making VN a central issue and attacking Bushs' Guard record.
Kerry is a dispicable person in my opinion. He was no friend of the people fighting and dying in VM while he was stateside calling them war criminals and murderers. I don't care what his war record was, it's blanked out by all the harm he caused for our soldiers and our country during Vietnam.
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Originally posted by NUKE
Kerry is a dispicable person in my opinion. He was no friend of the people fighting and dying in VM while he was stateside calling them war criminals and murderers. I don't care what his war record was, it's blanked out by all the harm he caused for our soldiers and our country during Vietnam.
Jesus man... This has turned into the same crap a la terrorists and Iraq.
Yeah. Kerry talked about the atrocities in his Senate Foreign Relations Committee testimony. Even said he took part in them. And it comprised a very small percentage of his argument.
Are you saying that atrocities didn't happen? If you can't, then why are you angry at Kerry for stating a truth?
At any rate, he didn't accuse anyone of being war criminals.
A reasonable, considered parsing of his testimony would lead one to the conclusion that Kerry was saying "Bad watermelon there, not workin' out, should consider the idea of getting the hell out of Dodge".
Oh but.... This is such treachery, right?
Why, exactly?
I can pretty much guarantee you that there is far, far, more than one grandfather, son, daughter, grandson and granddaughter alive right now - all owing their lives to Kerry for his courage; not on the battlefield but off of it.... Yet blissfully unaware of that fact, and hell, likely attacking him along the same weak lines as you.
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Originally posted by GScholz
Spoken like a true nationalist.
spoken like a true whatever.
The man is voicing an opinion and you want to label him?
why dont you just call him a nazi outright and get it over with.
Add to the discussion or dont post!
As far as the post goes. This is one account of many other people that were there. I don't discount what these vets say outright nor do I want them silenced!
Kerry will be his own undoing.
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Originally posted by Nash
Jesus man... This has turned into the same crap a la terrorists and Iraq.
Yeah. Kerry talked about the atrocities in his Senate Foreign Relations Committee testimony. Even said he took part in them. And it comprised a very small percentage of his argument.
Are you saying that atrocities didn't happen? If you can't, then why are you angry at Kerry for stating a truth?
At any rate, he didn't accuse anyone of being war criminals.
A reasonable, considered parsing of his testimony would lead one to the conclusion that Kerry was saying "Bad watermelon there, not workin' out, should consider the idea of getting the hell out of Dodge".
Oh but.... This is such treachery, right?
Why, exactly?
I can pretty much guarantee you that there is far, far, more than one grandfather, son, daughter, grandson and granddaughter alive right now - all owing their lives to Kerry for his courage; not on the battlefield but off of it.... Yet blissfully unaware of that fact, and hell, likely attacking him along the same weak lines as you.
when it aids the enemy we are currently fighting yes it is trechory. When it is strictly used as propaganda to demoralize our fighting me....yes it is aiding the enemy. When it is used as a tool to beat out confessions of POWs in order to turn them into war criminals yes it is aiding the enemy.
He's an officer he should have known better. If you want to protest the war fine. By all rights be my guest, but dont join the other side in order to do so.
Nash if you want to discuss atrocities I sudjest we start another thread....I have many many sources on the atrocities commited by the north.....they were far more numerous, frequent, and brutal than anything our GIs EVER did.
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Are you saying that atrocities didn't happen? If you can't, then why are you angry at Kerry for stating a truth?
Kerry said that atrocities where the rule rather than the exception. He said he witnessed these atrocities, yet did not report them until he was before the senate?
He is despicable in my opinion.
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Originally posted by GScholz
Was he wrong in coming forward and telling about the war crimes being committed?
If he witnessed war crimes, he was wrong to not report them while he was in Vietnam. Instead, he waited until he could read a speach about them before congress.
Yes, Kerry was wrong not to report if he witnessed war crimes.
Kerry's testomony was written for him. I believe even he has since said that he never actually witnessed war crimes himself.
Kerry is lower than low.
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Congressional Record April 22, 1971
John Kerry: I would like to talk, representing all those veterans, and say that several months ago in Detroit, we had an investigation at which over 150 honorably discharged and many very highly decorated veterans testified to war crimes committed in Southeast Asia, not isolated incidents but crimes committed on a day-to-day basis with the full awareness of officers at all levels of command.
It is impossible to describe to you exactly what did happen in Detroit, the emotions in the room, the feelings of the men who were reliving their experiences in Vietnam, but they did. They relived the absolute horror of what this country, in a sense, made them do.
They told the stories at times they had personally raped, cut off ears, cut off heads, tape wires from portable telephones to human genitals and turned up the power, cut off limbs, blown up bodies, randomly shot at civilians, razed villages in fashion reminiscent of Genghis Khan, shot cattle and dogs for fun, poisoned food stocks, and generally ravaged the country side of South Vietnam in addition to the normal ravage of war, and the normal and very particular ravaging which is done by the applied bombing power of this country.
We call this investigation the "Winter Soldier Investigation." The term "Winter Soldier" is a play on words of Thomas Paine in 1776 when he spoke of the Sunshine Patriot and summertime soldiers who deserted at Valley Forge because the going was rough.
We who have come here to Washington have come here because we feel we have to be winter soldiers now. We could come back to this country; we could be quiet; we could hold our silence; we could not tell what went on in Vietnam, but we feel because of what threatens this country, the fact that the crimes threaten it, no reds, and not redcoats but the crimes which we are committing that threaten it, that we have to speak out.
Seems to me he was telling the Fulbright committee about the consensus results of this "Winter Soldier Investigation", not necesarily of his own personally witnessed experience.
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Originally posted by GScholz
Was he wrong in coming forward and telling about the war crimes being committed?
yes, He never witnessed them nor commited them.
If a crime is taking place and I inform the public in a way that sounds completly blown out of proportion nor do I talk about any of my enemy's crimes that I was in fact fighting against that provides some sort of balence and that information helps my enemy win a war am I not aiding my enemy in wining the war?
Protest, sure. Tell blatent rumors based on hersay in formal hearings to be taken as fact and later used to torture POWs that wear the very same uniform that he did?
Not to mention he looked like a total disgrace while doing so (in utility uniform)
either way gunther does that mean you have to call NUKE a Nazi? Such a cop out response considering you are so much better than that
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Originally posted by Gunslinger
when it aids the enemy we are currently fighting yes it is trechory.
What if the fighting is wrong?
I mean, merely engaging in a conflict does not inherently make it right. Or staying in a conflict that is rapidly going South with no end in sight is not right.
Mistakes happen, eh? They just do. People shreck up.
Kerry said "Hey, it's just my opinion fellers, but this doesn't look right to me".
And that's wrong to you? I can't get behind that.... I don't get it.
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Originally posted by GScholz
I agree, he should have protested his orders.
He said he himself committed war crimes in VN ... and he did. Thousands of Americans did.
His orders? What orders?
He later recanted and stated that he never witnessed a war crime. He's a pathetic person.
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Originally posted by Nash
Kerry said "Hey, it's just my opinion fellers, but this doesn't look right to me".
And that's wrong to you? I can't get behind that.... I don't get it.
Kerry did not simply state his opinion. Kerry lied and went out of his way in doing so, before the Senate no less. I don't get you Nash.
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Originally posted by GScholz
He said he himself committed war crimes in VN ... and he did. Thousands of Americans did.
He didn't say that in front of the Fulbright committee... read the excerpt from the Congressional record a few posts up or google it yourself.
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Originally posted by Nash
What if the fighting is wrong?
I mean, merely engaging in a conflict does not inherently make it right. Or staying in a conflict that is rapidly going South with no end in sight is not right.
Mistakes happen, eh? They just do. People shreck up.
Kerry said "Hey, it's just my opinion fellers, but this doesn't look right to me".
And that's wrong to you? I can't get behind that.... I don't get it.
That's fine if that's what he said. Read the testimony....that's not what he said.
It is proven through history that we lost the war and the home front not in veitnam itself. In fact the US never lost a major battle in veitnam.....not one.
The reason I am passionate about this is because of some of the storys my uncle told me once over beers after I graduated boot camp.
The GIs would go through a vill and give the kids chewing gum, toothpast and candy bars and such.
On a return visit all the same kids that were caught with "contraband" givin to them from GIs had their hands cut off from macheties.
He saw this more than a few times.
Giving my enemy the a weapon to win is not justified because I do not agree with the conflict.
cmon his speech was used to torture POWs and .50 cal usage is the best you can come up with?
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The gunner that was with kerry on every mission kerry was on has today begged someone from the kerry camp or any democrat,independent,republicain...any organization, any one to sue him on behalf of kerry, on the grounds of slander.
He has asked the new york times, chi.tribune, la times,even george seros himself with all his money to please sue him.
He asked moore also, in public all in public , not behind closed doors,in public with public access.
When asked why, he said because then the records will have to be opened.
The new york daily is soon coming out with a heck of a story on this,since it is a liberal newspaper I cant wait to see how you all handle it.
BTW, the silence has been deaffening since then.
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GScholz.... there's a semantics thing that's happening.
It's the same as how you approach the UN vs US vs Iraq. Which is totally cool...
Because based strictly on international law, what Kerry talked about does indeed rise to the level of war crimes.
Others see it differently of course.... namely the participants. The issue is regarding Kerry's intent or culpability wrt to the war effort. So it's a bit different than an objective view of things.
Kerry did *not* admit to personally participating in war crimes, nor did he accuse anyone of participating in war crimes.
He described......... events.
To you, these events are crimes, therefore to you he admits to war crimes. To him and others, they don't meet that legal definition, thus he did not admit nor accuse anyone of war crimes.
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Originally posted by Nash
GScholz.... there's a semantics thing that's happening.
It's the same as how you approach the UN vs US vs Iraq.
Based strictly on international law, what Kerry talked about does indeed rise to the level of war crimes.
Others see it differently of course....
But Kerry did *not* admit to personally participating in war crimes, nor did he accuse anyone of participating in war crimes.
He described......... events.
To you, these events are crimes, therefore to you he admits to war crimes. To him and others, they don't meet that legal definition, thus he did not admit nor accuse anyone of war crimes.
WRONG Nash,
He said he committed "attrocities" because he participated in "free fire zones". Those of wich they gunned down every thing they saw man woman and child.
All of wich no other swift boat vet has been able to confirm.
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Originally posted by GScholz
His orders to commit war crimes like using .50 cal machineguns on people. I have yet to see any evidence of this much referred to recant of his speech.
What evidense do you have tha 50 cals were used on people under order from "above"?
Man, that would suck being shot by a 50 cal as opposed to a .223. That is a real war crime compaired to Kerry's false reports.
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Originally posted by GScholz
They were the only anti personnel weapons on his boat. He was instructed to use them in violation of the Geneva Conventions.
Against people out in the open? Can you list a source or give some examples?
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Originally posted by GScholz
Only what Kerry said he did. However I agree, compared to the other war crimes of that war, using .50 cals on people is peanuts.
So you take what Kerry says as truth not having any idea if what he says is true? Amazing.
Your argument has fallen with each post and now bottoms out with trusting Kerry's word over all the other Vets. Nice.
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Originally posted by GScholz
They were the only anti personnel weapons on his boat. He was instructed to use them in violation of the Geneva Conventions.
The hell they were. Those boats were loaded w/ weapons. .50s, M-60s and and everyone had a personal weapon.
I agree with you this is peanuts....so why go through it......votes maybe???
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Originally posted by Nash
Let me ask you this, now... Who here thought that they'd be doing this as a result of a short, fat political wonk desk jockey who never served but has a knack for making people believe, say and do things that they would have considered repulsive just months ago?
There's a sucker born every minute .
Some people are just weak minded and easily led, easy meat for politicians and their spin doctors.
Excel
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Originally posted by GScholz
His orders to commit war crimes like using .50 cal machineguns on people. I have yet to see any evidence of this much referred to recant of his speech.
I field this statement everyday from young troopers. Folks the conventions forbid the use of automatic cannon against personel targets, auto cannon being defined as any weapon with a high rate of fire, firing a projectile 14mm or larger. The 50 is not an auto cannon, its 12.7mm, its just a heavy machinegun. Now continue with the ranting and raving.
How's life GScholz?
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Originally posted by demaw1
The gunner that was with kerry on every mission kerry was on has today begged someone from the kerry camp or any democrat,independent,republicain...any organization, any one to sue him on behalf of kerry, on the grounds of slander.
You mean Stephen "Wild Man" Gardner?
http://www.time.com/time/nation/printout/0,8816,599034,00.html
His talk show host fed "anybody but Kerry" attitude makes him less than credible.
Some of the swift boat vets that are supporting Kerry are Republicans who are really interested in the truth.
BTW, you won't see any law suits during the campaign. If Kerry loses however, it might be likely that some of these folks who's stories have flip-flopped over 35 years would see the inside of a court room. Unfortunately, to keep these kinds of Karl Rove slander/libel tactics from being used in the future.
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Originally posted by crowMAW
Ripsnorted from yesterday's Chicago Trib.
CONGRADULATORY MESSAGE
Call me a skeptic, but I doubt the Chicago Tribune would misspell congratulatory. Makes me question the veracity of this post.
For the sake of argument, let's assume this is an accurate recreation of a real article....
One wonders whether Kerry knew at the time he would call his comrades "war criminals" during this event, or if that came later.
Opportunist - socialist - elitist - plastic man
"Gore without the charisma" - Domocrats quote and fear
Have a nice day!
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So, can anyone describe the Kerry plan to keep the better paying jobs at home without violating NAFTA or free trade principles?
How about the Bush supporters doing the same?
Thanks in advance.
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how many medals did he get in 4 months?
how many other vets performed to skerry's level, recieved as many medals and got out of country in one piece in 4 months?
the whole thing smells .. sorry if that offends anyone who served
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Originally posted by TalonX
Call me a skeptic, but I doubt the Chicago Tribune would misspell congratulatory. Makes me question the veracity of this post.
When I pasted the article the section break titles looked like regular text. I should have bolded them, but instead chose to re-type them in all-cap. I am a lousy speller (not as bad as HiTech...but close)
If you doubt that it is a real Chicago Trib article, you are welcome to go eat some crow...the registration is free to see the article on the posted website.
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How many medals did dubya get? Oh; wait he didnt go did he?
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(http://www.military-graphics.com/afpilotwings.png)
Go get yourself a set and come back and tell us how easy it was.
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Was it here that I read that there's an investigation underway about Bush wearing medals he didn't earn? Mebbe somewhere else.... I just scanned it real quick.
The entire thing would be just so dumb, if it weren't so sad. And by sad I mean sad and pathetic.
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please list ANY other swift boat vet that got the numbers of citations/medals/ribbons herman did in the same amount of time (that is 4 out of the normal 12 months, that is 1/3 for you dumbacrats :)) and then skipped out of country
somehow I'd be able to swallow his bullSHeeT if he were not the ONLY one to have accomplished this superhuman feat....
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Originally posted by Eagler
somehow I'd be able to swallow his bullSHeeT if he were not the ONLY one to have accomplished this superhuman feat....
The guy became a United States senator for 20 years and is now a candidate for president of the United States.
How many senators has this country had? How many major party candidates for president? Obviously Kerry was and is not a "normal" guy by whatever definition we use there. The whole military angle is silly. I doubt Kerry's going to win many votes with it, and I doubt the Republicans are going to lose many because of it. By election time, the whole Swift Boat Veterans for Truth fiasco will likely be a distant memory. And good riddance.
-- Todd/Leviathn
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I kinda think it was important for Kerry to stress his military career. Just because of the times.
Picture Kerry without it. I'm picturing him getting boxed a la Dukakis.
Thars no way to know how many votes are going to be gained by it, but I'm sure it leaves a significant imprint, that, however subconsciouse or unquantifiable, is reflected in people's view of Kerry and his positions on the whole.
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Levi
Yes, to use his 4 month "military record" is retarded at best .. so why is he doing it?
Yes, he has been a Senator for 20 years, why is he not pulling any rabbits out of that hat? maybe cause they are all dead...
but since he is the "war hero" of the dems, running on his 4 month nam tour instead of his 20 years in politics...
Was there another swift boat vet or any vet in Nam that was able to accomplish what skerry did in 4 months and live to tell about it...just wondering
maybe he does have a huge red "S" on his chest - LOL
(http://www.politicalshop.com/sku/SLK3.jpg)