Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Zanth on August 24, 2004, 08:02:15 AM
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[whine]
The country I was playing on this AM was hiding six (6) CV's. That is a lot of game play missing from the map. From the courses that are laid in it looks like someone has had some of these boats locked on course for 4 hours or more.
Even though it was my own side doing the hiding, this is something I disagree with. One or two ... well still don't like it but maybe - but 6? This is excessive to the point of rediculous. I begin to see why some argue that CV's should follow some direction other than a single (or any) player's control. As it is this is just a lot of game play for both sides that is just lost.
[/whine]
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agree with your whine
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Personally, I think CV hiding is lacking in imagination. Why not use them in combat?
The other day we went out with 262's to find "our" CV's. We did....(we had retaken the ports and couldn't find the CVs). We sent B17's, like HQ raiders to sink them.
When it was all over, it really seemed stupid. Why bother?
Bring 'em to the fight!
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agree 100 %
Would like to see another condition added to CV control.
The person who has control has to be within a certian radius (miles) of the CV. This would force the captain to actually stay within control range. Leave the radius ... lose control.
It would also help to eliminate the hogging of CV Control by just 1 person, unless of course CV Groups are steaming next to each other.
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Originally posted by SlapShot
The person who has control has to be within a certian radius (miles) of the CV. This would force the captain to actually stay within control range. Leave the radius ... lose control.
I like the sound of this concept.
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VERY good idea slapshot
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This is an excellent whine, and I'd like to whine along with you. Slapshot's solution is a promising one.
MRPLUTO
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Originally posted by SlapShot
agree 100 %
Would like to see another condition added to CV control.
The person who has control has to be within a certian radius (miles) of the CV. This would force the captain to actually stay within control range. Leave the radius ... lose control.
It would also help to eliminate the hogging of CV Control by just 1 person, unless of course CV Groups are steaming next to each other.
the problem is you do NOT need command to set waypoints for a CV.
in your scenario on lets say the mindanao map, CV18 up in the far west is 100 miles form the front line when it starts. if someone had to sit on that CV for 4 hours to get it into position to even fight it would never get there.
setting waypoints for a CV is nto and should never be tied to someone being "in command"
taking command should be used they way it is designed. taking the CV and heading it in a better line around those PT spawns for example. the whole rank takes command is in place so that people who have played the game longer and understand the gameplay can run the CV... sometimes away from impending danger.
i do not agree with the hiding of CV's, and wish there was a way around it. the thoughts mentioned already all seem to be someone's idea of gameplay. dont forget that 1 persons idea of "fun" is another;s idea of "gameing" or something.
so far, the only plausable solution was the time limit imposed on owning the port attached to the CV. if the prot is owned for XXX time, and the CV is nto part of the country, it automatically de-spawns and re-up and the home port.
with the new reset conditions on place, that also seems unusuable. imagine 1 country is down to 7 bases (1 a port) and a CV on SFMA for example. those older maps unlike the new ones can not fly planes. the attacking country could take the port, kill all the barracks, then just sit and wait. eventually the CV would "auto spawn" giving them the reset.
from what i see the "gameplay" of it all just gets too complicated, and there is no simple solution.
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Lose the port, lose the carrier.
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Originally posted by SlapShot
The person who has control has to be within a certian radius (miles) of the CV. This would force the captain to actually stay within control range. Leave the radius ... lose control.
You are teh genius!
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New mission opportunity perhaps?
Perhaps a flight of b26s on a hunter/killer mission to find the carriers. Or a long endurance fighter just to scout them out. A p51 with DTs - hey it's boring but rewarding.
I'd do it just to screw over a carrier hiding mofo.
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Originally posted by JB73
the problem is you do NOT need command to set waypoints for a CV.
True, but you do however need command to lock-out others from redirecting it.
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Originally posted by gofaster
Lose the port, lose the carrier.
Couldn't be easier. While Slap's suggestion addresses the problem, GF's removes the problem. I say 5-10 mins. after port is taken CV respawns there under new ownership.
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Originally posted by gofaster
Lose the port, lose the carrier.
Might have to be that way. Or maybe with some time delay.
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73,
My idea would prevent the CV hog from controlling multiple CVs and hiding the multiples. I have seen instances where 1 person does have command of all the "hiding" CVs and there is no way to wrest control from them.
How many times have you been flying off a CV (probably not alot u LW weenie ... :D) and come to find out that the guy who has control is no where near the CV group, and no one can take control of the CV to move it when bombers are inbound ... and the CV is lost.
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The only way that I would agree with the "lose the port - lose the CV" would be if ...
HT could tell/sense that the CV was indeed being used as an offensive weapon ... active multiple launching of planes could determine that the CV is being used and not despawn back to the port.
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Not a hijack, just a comment... you know what really makes people whine? Bring 2 or 3 CV groups together then take them close to an enm base! Ooooh, the poofy ack gods love that! :D
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Originally posted by Zanth
I like the sound of this concept.
easy fix, when port is taken, CV respawns automaticly
to who owns port say in 4 hours. give u time to retake port
to keep CV or us it vs a base. after 4 hours its gone.
Use it cause ur gona lose it.
why CVs are hiden?
sometimes just for spit but most of the time is
stratigicly better for your side, then using it for
base attacks on some maps. example:
Ndisles
P14 cv 13, p21 cv 20, p42 cv 41, p32 cv31
are all front line base, within (usually) 30 mins sail to enemy base.
so every 30 mins ur using resources to fight a CV attack, especially with CVs 13 20 and 41, more with A10/CV13 then rest.
when u own a10 Cv13 is used to attack every 20-30 mins like clock work. when u take the port and get CV, then hid it. you basicly free up the 20 or 30 guys having to defend 10 constantly,
to fight/help else where. so tacticly its better to get CV out of area
and keep it from falling back to the enemy.
several maps have CV situations like this.
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Originally posted by SlapShot
73,
My idea would prevent the CV hog from controlling multiple CVs and hiding the multiples. I have seen instances where 1 person does have command of all the "hiding" CVs and there is no way to wrest control from them.
How many times have you been flying off a CV (probably not alot u LW weenie ... :D) and come to find out that the guy who has control is no where near the CV group, and no one can take control of the CV to move it when bombers are inbound ... and the CV is lost.
This would also prevent dweebs from taking control of the cv then disappearing on tour resets when scores are 0. It happens every time.
50 mile range would work well.
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Okay,
I'm a newbie here, but not to real amphibious ops, nor to real warfare. The reality of strategic war and it's planning is that, to win in the long term you must not only kill the enemy on the battlefield, but you must also destroy his ability to return the battlefield with weapons, weapon supplies, troops, troop supplies, and all other materiels and resources with which to kill you. In essence, you must deprive your enemies of the resouces to kill you.
If you disagree, then ask yourself why strategic bombing exists. Why did the Brits work so hard to sink the Turpits and the Bismark? They sure didn't "RESPAWN". In our game, if it sinks, you get it back. Well thats not very real now is it? If a CV is no longer yours, because you and your team failed to secure it, (usually preoccupied with personal furballing) than eat crap and die. You had it. You didn't appreciate and secure your resources, now they're gone.
If you have to fly a zillion miles to recon, in order to sink, and reclaim it, than I would suggest that you study the men who flew Catalinas, and the guys at Midway. They did that all the time, many of them NEVER came back, because their own ships were too valuable, and the time to regain them too long, to allow the enemy to walk away with their cv's. You just have to get bored for awhile. The hard part is that you then have to get the aforementioned furballers to pretend to be a team, and go get it back.
The price of losing a cv in a game, where the object is to conquer and command territory, should be extremely severe. They respawn like Fleas in this game. Theoretically you just kissed off 2500 of your own men, Millions of dollars in WWII cash, recruitment and training of an entire crew, aircraft etc. Theoretically, it should take about a year to build and sail another one. (in the very best circ). So it should take something like 2 days to get one back after sinking.
That said cv's seem a bit weak in this game. Destroyers are useless, in terms of AA, and just try to sink the New Jersey with 1 bomb or torp. These ships had fire crews, vastly larger tf shielding, and a helmsman to initiate defensive maneuvering. Up the re-spawn time drastically, thus making it more valuable. Make the task force equivalently more formidable, so they can't be sunk by one pass in a 110, (GAWD thats friggin ridiculous), adn you will cure the issue of Asset Denial.
So, defend it if you want it. Find it if you lose it. Sink it when you find it. And stuff it if you don't like it.
(This thread was started by a good teammate. No disrespect to you. I just disagree, and hopefully made my case without offense.) It's just a game, but losers suk!
:aok
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If this game wasn't all about the landgrab and porking and hording and augering we wouldn't have this crap. Gimme my reset perks! Hide the Cv's so I get my only perks of the camp quicker! :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:
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Originally posted by gofaster
Lose the port, lose the carrier.
Aye.
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Originally posted by whels
easy fix, when port is taken, CV respawns automaticly
to who owns port say in 4 hours. give u time to retake port
to keep CV or us it vs a base. after 4 hours its gone....
That long? Maybe 45 min, at most, I think.
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Originally posted by JB73
taking command should be used they way it is designed. taking the CV and heading it in a better line around those PT spawns for example. the whole rank takes command is in place so that people who have played the game longer and understand the gameplay can run the CV... sometimes away from impending danger.
Just because some person can play the game 8+ hours a day doesn't mean that they understand the gameplay. Neither does the fact that someone has been playing the game for X number of months/years.
My vote is for Slapshots idea.
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Howz bout this...?
If you lose the port a CV is attached to, you can move it to another friendly port and attach it there. This would take away the reason people 'hide' CV's.
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Originally posted by ehall391
Okay,
I'm a newbie here, but not to real amphibious ops, nor to real warfare. The reality of strategic war and it's planning is that, to win in the long term you must not only kill the enemy on the battlefield, but you must also destroy his ability to return the battlefield with weapons, weapon supplies, troops, troop supplies, and all other materiels and resources with which to kill you. In essence, you must deprive your enemies of the resouces to kill you.
If you disagree, then ask yourself why strategic bombing exists. Why did the Brits work so hard to sink the Turpits and the Bismark? They sure didn't "RESPAWN". In our game, if it sinks, you get it back. Well thats not very real now is it? If a CV is no longer yours, because you and your team failed to secure it, (usually preoccupied with personal furballing) than eat crap and die. You had it. You didn't appreciate and secure your resources, now they're gone.
If you have to fly a zillion miles to recon, in order to sink, and reclaim it, than I would suggest that you study the men who flew Catalinas, and the guys at Midway. They did that all the time, many of them NEVER came back, because their own ships were too valuable, and the time to regain them too long, to allow the enemy to walk away with their cv's. You just have to get bored for awhile. The hard part is that you then have to get the aforementioned furballers to pretend to be a team, and go get it back.
The price of losing a cv in a game, where the object is to conquer and command territory, should be extremely severe. They respawn like Fleas in this game. Theoretically you just kissed off 2500 of your own men, Millions of dollars in WWII cash, recruitment and training of an entire crew, aircraft etc. Theoretically, it should take about a year to build and sail another one. (in the very best circ). So it should take something like 2 days to get one back after sinking.
That said cv's seem a bit weak in this game. Destroyers are useless, in terms of AA, and just try to sink the New Jersey with 1 bomb or torp. These ships had fire crews, vastly larger tf shielding, and a helmsman to initiate defensive maneuvering. Up the re-spawn time drastically, thus making it more valuable. Make the task force equivalently more formidable, so they can't be sunk by one pass in a 110, (GAWD thats friggin ridiculous), adn you will cure the issue of Asset Denial.
So, defend it if you want it. Find it if you lose it. Sink it when you find it. And stuff it if you don't like it.
(This thread was started by a good teammate. No disrespect to you. I just disagree, and hopefully made my case without offense.) It's just a game, but losers suk!
:aok
All very valid points ... if this was a REAL war ... but it's not.
My sig tells it all ... from HT's perspective.
Hiding CVs takes away from the fun aspect of this game. It's an asset that should be used to promote fighting and conflict. The more fighting/conflict, the more FUN ... YMMV.
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If a CV moves farther than 35 or 50miles max from any part of home port land it is considered in" HIding mode" and automatically goes to the holder of the home port. Use it or Lose it!!!!!
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Like NB's idea, move it to a friendly port and it becomes attached to that one.
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Originally posted by KaK3MAW
If a CV moves farther than 35 or 50miles max from any part of home port land it is considered in" HIding mode" and automatically goes to the holder of the home port. Use it or Lose it!!!!!
Well ... if you own a CV and someone else takes the port and you have it steaming, offensivly, to attack another base, and you pass the 2 sector radius ... you lose it ? Contradiction ... you're trying to use it, but you lose it.
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Originally posted by KaK3MAW
If a CV moves farther than 35 or 50miles max from any part of home port land it is considered in" HIding mode" and automatically goes to the holder of the home port. Use it or Lose it!!!!!
thats 1 -2 sectors tops. 1 sector is 25 miles.
512x512 maps are over 30 sectors across, and having CV's attached to a even 50 mile radius of their port would almost completely negate a reason to have them in AH
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Originally posted by NoBaddy
Howz bout this...?
If you lose the port a CV is attached to, you can move it to another friendly port and attach it there. This would take away the reason people 'hide' CV's.
So if the CV was eventually sunk, would it then be re-attached back to it's original port/object ?
Sounds like a whole bunch of funky coding on HT's part.
As much as I don't like GV hiding, I don't want to see this tactic removed completely, just trying to make it harder for one goober to take complete control over the whole fleet and not allowing those who want to go offensive with a CV, take a CV in action.
Also, to prevent someone taking control of a CV and not be anywhere near the action, thus leaving the CV at the mercy of inbound bombers. This happens alot.
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Originally posted by Adogg
New mission opportunity perhaps?
Perhaps a flight of b26s on a hunter/killer mission to find the carriers. Or a long endurance fighter just to scout them out. A p51 with DTs - hey it's boring but rewarding.
I'd do it just to screw over a carrier hiding mofo.
Well, I think the most preferred method usually is just to have someone spy it out, just like the "silent shore battery" has become popular.
How about just having cv's visible all the time like any other base?
BTW, Rooks, thanks for letting the knights have your Shiznot friend AZDiablo for awhile Sunday, didn't expect to see him knightside.
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Originally posted by SlapShot
So if the CV was eventually sunk, would it then be re-attached back to it's original port/object ?
Sounds like a whole bunch of funky coding on HT's part.
As much as I don't like GV hiding, I don't want to see this tactic removed completely, just trying to make it harder for one goober to take complete control over the whole fleet and not allowing those who want to go offensive with a CV, take a CV in action.
Also, to prevent someone taking control of a CV and not be anywhere near the action, thus leaving the CV at the mercy of inbound bombers. This happens alot.
Slap...
No, that's the point...and yes, I realize there would need to be different criteria for CV captures.
Why make it easy for HT....easy is for gurls and La7 drivers. Last time I checked...HT was neither :D.
Had another idea...but, realized it wouldn't prevent CV hiding. The problem is that hiding a vunerable CV makes tactical sense. For something to work, you have to take away the tactical reasons for hiding them. Note: not saying I agree with it. :)
What has to be done is to come up with another way to capture CV's. As long as all you have to do is capture its port to get the CV...it will continue to make sense to hide them.
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Agree this nonsense of hiding CV's is for the birds.
And even those "Ranking" folks that do take over sometimes of the ones that aren't being hidden. Judging from what I see them sometimes do with the CV well,,,, I wouldn't let them control a 5 foot piece of driftwood in a half filled bathtub.
And I agree that something better should be implemented in how a CV gets controlled
Here's an idea.
Somehow I think its unlikely that HTC is going to give up on the Rank controls the CV notion. So how about this.
the only way you can control a CV is if you actually on or operating from it. Meaning you had to have taken off from the CV. And then if you haven't done anything to the CV for say 15 min, you automatically loose control of it.
This would prevent people from controlling a CV that they arent anywhere near. which I've seen more then once.
On One occasion a "Ranking" (and I use the term loosely) Player had and refused to give up control or even move a CV that was desperately needed to help prevent a Bish advance.
What I ended up doing was finding the highest ranking Knight player and appeal to him to seize control of the CV and move it to where it was needed Which he was so kind to do.
End result was we got the CV into position in the nick of time to be effective, not only stopped the Bish advance but then managed to use this very same CV this "Ranking" pilot wouldn't give up to attack and capture 5 more Bish bases and turned the Bish from offensive operations to defensive for the rest of the night,
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Originally posted by SlapShot
agree 100 %
Would like to see another condition added to CV control.
The person who has control has to be within a certian radius (miles) of the CV. This would force the captain to actually stay within control range. Leave the radius ... lose control.
It would also help to eliminate the hogging of CV Control by just 1 person, unless of course CV Groups are steaming next to each other.
Nail has been hit directly on the head.
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If my country is hiding a CV and I'm on, just ask me and I will gladly tell you where it is and escort your bombers to it - under the condition that you promptly sink it, then direct it to the nearest enemy base and pick a fight. I'll be waiting.
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I think to control the CV you must remain on the CV.
You up a plane, you lose control of cv.
You move to another base, you lose control of cv.
Mind you, the already established waypoints that you put there will remain but anyone else can control the cv once onboard and change them.
No rank system involved. Simply put you must remain on the cv to maintain control of it.
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Originally posted by NoBaddy
Howz bout this...?
If you lose the port a CV is attached to, you can move it to another friendly port and attach it there. This would take away the reason people 'hide' CV's.
Cool but that's pretty well suggesting an idea under the assumption that it's even possible to manipulate the TE or engine in such a way.
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Hide the CV, is that kinda like Hide the Salami?
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Originally posted by Arlo
Cool but that's pretty well suggesting an idea under the assumption that it's even possible to manipulate the TE or engine in such a way.
Knowing HT...possible isn't the problem...practical might be. :)
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Why Dont the CV's Get Reset each Day when Scores are updated. So if you still owned the port you would have to Rehide it and the other team would know where it is to start each day. And if you have retaken the port you get it back.
Crims
479th Raiders
Ps Sorry if t his was already said, Didn't read all the posts >)
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If you don't like your cv being hid, don't loose the port. Defending the port=keeping your cv.
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Originally posted by crims
Why Dont the CV's Get Reset each Day when Scores are updated. So if you still owned the port you would have to Rehide it and the other team would know where it is to start each day. And if you have retaken the port you get it back.
Crims
479th Raiders
Ps Sorry if t his was already said, Didn't read all the posts >)
So what happens to the people using it at the time? some cv's might be in play and poof they're gone? bummer.
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Originally posted by SlapShot
agree 100 %
Would like to see another condition added to CV control.
The person who has control has to be within a certian radius (miles) of the CV. This would force the captain to actually stay within control range. Leave the radius ... lose control.
It would also help to eliminate the hogging of CV Control by just 1 person, unless of course CV Groups are steaming next to each other.
Yep, this has been mentioned before...Maybe someone's paying attention this time... Absentee admirals are the worst....
My regards,
Widewing
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I dont agree with hiding cv's either, use them the way there were intended to be used, offensively imo.
If you don't like your cv being hid, don't loose the port. Defending the port=keeping your cv.
That isnt always possible. Sometimes your team just doesnt have enough players to defend everything that needs defending. If my team is badly outnumbered and we lose 4 ports (in addition to other bases) in one night.....should my team have to spend the rest of the week trying to find and sink them? I dont think so.
Lose the port, lose the cv is a very good idea imo.
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There is already a solution to this whine in effect. If you dont like what is being done with the CVs, get some rank and do it your way.
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Originally posted by Murdr
There is already a solution to this whine in effect. If you dont like what is being done with the CVs, get some rank and do it your way.
For once, I agree with murdr :aok
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Originally posted by SlapShot
agree 100 %
Would like to see another condition added to CV control.
The person who has control has to be within a certian radius (miles) of the CV. This would force the captain to actually stay within control range. Leave the radius ... lose control.
It would also help to eliminate the hogging of CV Control by just 1 person, unless of course CV Groups are steaming next to each other.
I dont think this would work slap, say you send the cv group to a distant base to attack, then you have to be with in a certain distance of the cv for hours and hours. When you weren't, someone grabs it and sends it where they like, this not only makes you have to stay near a cv that may or may not be close to a base at all while it is en-route, but it leaves the cv group open to spies as well. The only problem with the cv group is the guys who don't have a high enough rank complaining about where they get sent. It would be like a chief petty officer raising hell at the admiral about going to a specific location. Get some rank, or keep peeling those potatoes! :rofl
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I hid a cv today, and I wasn't ashamed of it either :)
I had a couple nits telling me to keep in play but about an hour after I pulled it away from the front, sure enough the port got retaken. Was glad I hid it. :D
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Nothing wrong with hiding them IMO.
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Hiding of them is entirely lame. Screaming about how you work really hard to hide all 6, and then log out for hours, and come back to find them in use or sunk is also lame. Saying work on your lowering your rank (by doing more silly things that don't make the game much fun) is also lame.
I'm venturing the guess that since HT put CVs in the game, and made them capable of launching vehicles, PT boats, and aircraft, that he was probably thinking they'd be used like roving airfields, and not family heirlooms.
FWIW, I like Slap's and GF's ideas. I tend toward the autorespawn of the CV, but nailing down a good practical time limit might be tough. Hmmm, actually, why not the same respawn time for a sunk CV? Also, staying at the helm for the duration of your control might also be a good fix. Sure, it'd stink for the 150mi sail to foreign ports, but that would, I think, tend to tempt the 'captain' to keep the CV in use, for fear of passing out from boredom. It might also promote AFK captains, but there's always someone with lower rank on.
Cheers,
hub
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Originally posted by hubsonfire
Saying work on your lowering your rank (by doing more silly things that don't make the game much fun) is also lame.
So playing the game the way hitech designed the scoring system is lame, and not much fun. So we should instead chain a player to the bridge of a CV, when it might take an hour or more to reach the objective? That doesn sound like much fun either. The rank system has only one practical application in the game, CV command.
I hate to be rude, but if one does not want to do what it takes to earn the privilage to do as they please with the CVs, that that is their problem, and they have no footing to be b**ching about it here.
But there are always people who rather complain about privilages someone else earned rather that earing it themselves.
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There are strategic times to hide a CV. If you take an enemy port and it looks like there is no way that your side will be able to hold onto that port for more then a hour or less, then hiding the CV maskes perfect sence and i do it all the time. The only reason i work hard to get my rank under 100 each month is so i have the power to hide and control CV's.
Nothing more frustrating for the enemy then to retake a port and then find it somestimes takes them 4+ hours to a day to find and sink the CV's. Not only will i hide them, but if they want to make a mission to sink them they better plan on flying their buffs 150 miles to do it!!! Just last week i had the 2 CV's from the rooks hidden and out of action for over 24 hours. I even stayed logged on when i was not playing so no one with a rank less then mine could put the 2 CV's back in action. My rank was 38 last month and although there were players from the knights with lower rank then mine they understood what i was doing and did not take control of the CV's from me.!!!
The stratagy was on that body of water there were only 4 CV ports. 2 in night default home territory and 2 in rook default home territory. We did a great late Knight raid up the coast and captured all the rook sea bases, so now we owned all 4 CV's. At that point we did not need any cv's because we already had all the sea bases captured. But i new the next morning the rooks would surge when they got their morning numbers up so i hid their CV's 150 miles away in the farthest corner from them. So when they took back their 2 ports the next morning it took them almost a whole day to get organised and run a buff mission deep inside our territoru to get them back. Needless to say the fact that the rooks went all day without CV's, and then had to make a special long distance buff mission to get them back definetely slowed their land grap efforts on that sealine during that day.
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Originally posted by Samiam
If my country is hiding a CV and I'm on, just ask me and I will gladly tell you where it is and escort your bombers to it - under the condition that you promptly sink it, then direct it to the nearest enemy base and pick a fight. I'll be waiting.
No need for that. Each country has more then its share of dweebs with shades accounts to see were they are while spying. The problrm is not knowing were the CV's are hidden, The problem is flying a buff mission 150 Miles deep into enemy territory undetected to sink them. The only thing more fun then hiding them is jumping the incoming buff raid that is trying to recapture them. What a shame they just wasted a hour flying only to get shot down when they were within 25 miles of the CV's!!! :) :) :)
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I see a PNG coming to you very soon.
Bronk
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Originally posted by SlapShot
The person who has control has to be within a certian radius (miles) of the CV. This would force the captain to actually stay within control range. Leave the radius ... lose control.
Agree.
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Holy Dig Up a Dead Thread, Batman! :O
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and are they truely hidden..................
or just not found
:confused:
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Took more work to dig up this thread than it would to find and kill a hidden CV, lol.
:huh
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Originally posted by E25280
Holy Dig Up a Dead Thread, Batman! :O
Oooppsss!!! Yeah, I appolagise about that. I would not have responded to this thread if i had realised it was dead for so long. After i went back and read my comments i noticed the 2004 to 2006 gap. I must have noticed and read this thread while doing a search for something else, and i had a brain lasp and did not realize when i was responding to it that it was so old!!!
Sorry Guys, My bad!!!!!