Aces High Bulletin Board
Help and Support Forums => Help and Training => Topic started by: phobia on August 25, 2004, 12:31:40 PM
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According to Soda:
"the P-38 can slam the throttles closed, drop flaps, dive-flaps, and maybe even the landing gear. "
Dropping gear and regular flaps are a no brainer but,,how exactly do you drop dive flaps? What's the key command and can you do it with combat trim on "auto"?
Thanks for any info.
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Shift c is a 'dive brake' which was actually a Fowler flap on the P38, if the synapses are firing correctly.
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i forget what the keymapping is (check keymap in setup) you can map it to a joystick button if you want as well. the dive flap can be used when you're in combat trim, altho' some may feel that using CT defeats the purpose in a 38 YMMV.
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Thanks Fuze and Shane!
"altho' some may feel that using CT defeats the purpose in a 38"
Shane,
I have no doubts you're right about this but you have to learn to crawl before you can run.
:D And I don't mean run as in run away,,,or hmmmm,,maybe I do,,,the P38 is reasonably fast and I'm not very good.
I'll work on it!!
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Originally posted by fuze
Shift c is a 'dive brake' which was actually a Fowler flap on the P38, if the synapses are firing correctly.
The Fowler Flaps is actually the first notch of the P-38's flaps. The dive flaps are just dive flaps that are designed to change the air flow over the wings to help prevent compressability in dives by giving the nose positive lift.
ack-ack
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Originally posted by phobia
What's the key command and can you do it with combat trim on "auto"?
Thanks for any info.
Shift+C to deply dive flaps. I don't recommend using Combat Trim in the P-38 and it will negate the effects of the dive flaps. Combat trim will try to compensate for the lift generated by the dive flaps and keep them from doing what they're supposed to do.
ack-ack
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Originally posted by Ack-Ack
The Fowler Flaps is actually the first notch of the P-38's flaps. The dive flaps are just dive flaps that are designed to change the air flow over the wings to help prevent compressability in dives by giving the nose positive lift.
ack-ack
As usual my synapses didn't fire correctly. Off with my head!!!
I hope the next one grows back better than this one did.
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Thanks Ack,
I'll give it a whirl without combat trim. No pun intended.
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Generally, the "throw out the airbrakes" approach to defense is a bit last ditch, but in the P38 you can sometimes catch guys dropping below stall and as soon as they put power back on they snap out of control.
The dive-flaps offered marginal drag when I tested them, it was measurable but barely. Using 1-2 notches of flaps at key points in a fight is critical though, that can make all the difference.
Ack-Ack is dead on about combat trim in the P38. In general it doesn't seem combat trim is a good thing when you get into high, or even low, speed handling problems. It can actually make the situation worse, not better.
I actually have a few AH2 updated pages for my site... I really should get them cleaned up and posted.
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Originally posted by phobia
"altho' some may feel that using CT defeats the purpose in a 38"
Shane,
I have no doubts you're right about this but you have to learn to crawl before you can run.
phobia,
The CT is very dangerous in the P38. In dives CT will keep trimming you forward and make it harder for you to pull out of the dive. This is one of the reasons so many new player lawndart the 38 in jabo runs.
It's a good plane to start using the manual trims. only elevator trim is needed, and what you can do is use "half CT" - if you are way out of trim, turn it on for a sec, then turn off, this will bring you fast to a near trim, fine trim from there.
Bozon
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Thanks to everyone for their pointers. I actually flew the 38 last nite ( no CT ) and have moderate success. Had a few kills and the deaths I suffered were not due to the plane but the "monkey behind the wheel".
Gonna keep flying it for a while and I'm going to attempt to map my Nostromo speedpad to control trim.
Thanks again!:aok
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Here's some P-38 films to help you out in the Lightning.
479th Film Library (http://479th.jasminemarie.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=Downloads&file=index&req=viewdownload&cid=1)
ack-ack
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Take the option for 200 rnds/gun. The 500 round /gun option turns the P-38 into a nasty non-turning MONSTER
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Originally posted by OLtos
Take the option for 200 rnds/gun. The 500 round /gun option turns the P-38 into a nasty non-turning MONSTER
No it doesn't. There is no appreciable difference in manueverability by taking the lower ammo load in the P-38L. You are hindering yourself by taking the lower ammo load, not gaining an advantage.
ack-ack
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Originally posted by Ack-Ack
No it doesn't. There is no appreciable difference in manueverability by taking the lower ammo load in the P-38L. You are hindering yourself by taking the lower ammo load, not gaining an advantage.
ack-ack
But it makes things SOOOOO much better for the rest of us who want to SURVIVE the encounter. :)
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LOL!
ack-ack
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Fighting in the P38 isn't fun unless your full flaps and hanging on the props with everthing you got. :)
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dropping flaps, gear and dive flaps is only a no brainer against a decent stick.
more often than not in the Ma people fly at FFT(full F-in throttle) and if they are coming in fast, or even sitting D200 off your 6 you stand more chance of losing a higher performing plane by doing this than most other tricks.
although the gear is a dead give away.
oh, but dont try this in a jug against shane. he isnt quite that dumb. ;)
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When I'm on the six of a P-38 and they have full flaps deployed and I see the gears come down, I know it's only matter of a few seconds before I blow his tail off. *hint* don't drop gears in a P-38, it's not needed.
ack-ack
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With the extra drag that can be produced by the fowler flaps and the redundant rudder, there's no need for gear dropping. The only rare case Ive dropped gear in combat is when Ive stalled over the top on some bonehead intent on a HO shot who mistakenly thinks Ill come screaming back down at them.
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thanks for the tips, i have recently discovered in the jug40 that lowering the gear hardly reduces the airspeed at all. and obviously its a dead give away.
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In most cases dropping the gear is a really bad idea but it depends on the situation. Most aircraft once you drop the gear you telegraph your maneuver which is bad because the enemy will know exactly what to do. You also have to remember that getting the gear out is an sub-200mph thing on most aircraft, speeds which offer little maneuver potential so are pretty desperate. Good cross-control of rudder/ailerons can get a P-38 to almost stop in the air.
-Soda
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I have to disagree about the ammo load not making a difference in flight performance.I have always taken the light load,I read this thread,and knowing ack ack is good P38 pilot,I thought i'd try full load a few times.I managed to spin out more times in a couple of sorties than I care to think about.Back to light load for me.
IronDog
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Originally posted by IronDog
I have to disagree about the ammo load not making a difference in flight performance.I have always taken the light load,I read this thread,and knowing ack ack is good P38 pilot,I thought i'd try full load a few times.I managed to spin out more times in a couple of sorties than I care to think about.Back to light load for me.
IronDog
It's not the ammo load that is making you spin.
ack-ack
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I checked in TA.
Light ammo load gives 100fpm more climb and 2-3 mph lower stall speed.
So yes it makes a diffrence... about as much as a quarter tank of fuel or so.
But, if akak says it makes no diffrence when fighting with it, then i beleave that. Say it makes a diffrence to the flight characteristic but that diffrence is not significant for fighting?
I did not measure if there is a change in nimbleness, acceleration or rollrate... i have no idea how to measure that.
ciao schutt
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Originally posted by Schutt
I checked in TA.
Light ammo load gives 100fpm more climb and 2-3 mph lower stall speed.
So yes it makes a diffrence... about as much as a quarter tank of fuel or so.
But, if akak says it makes no diffrence when fighting with it, then i beleave that. Say it makes a diffrence to the flight characteristic but that diffrence is not significant for fighting?
I did not measure if there is a change in nimbleness, acceleration or rollrate... i have no idea how to measure that.
ciao schutt
I flew a tour with nothing but the light ammo load to see what gains can be had. During that time the only thing that I noticed was that I would sometimes run out of ammo before my tanks were half dry. It didn't give me any advantage in maneuverability and no appreciable difference between taking the full or half ammo load. Taking half ammo load is not going to give you the edge in a dogfight but as with all things, YMMV.
ack-ack
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tried 500 rds per gun again,flew lil more carefully,5 kill hop, 2 kills with fiftys only,I was wrong.there I said it.
IronDog
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AKAK, got a question for you, and Murdr and any other 38 pilot that may want to chime in...
On flap useage. I think I may be running them out at the "wrong" times. On the boards you have said that if you roll out the flaps at the wrong times you can get stuck in the air instead of the nose rolling down nice and clean and quick. Can you guys give some timing markers about when to hit each flap? I know it goes a lot by "feel" but if you can get us rookies in the ballpark, maybe we can find the bases :)
I use your stick config AKAK, and at first thought it was way too soft, but now that I'm getting use to it I find I'm better at holding my "E". So I have the maneuvers down, working on getting the flaps down, still got alot of work to do in the "aim" department (glad AH2 has all those farms, now I got barns I can finally hit!), and have gotten over 1000 kills in the 38. I figure in another year or so I might be good ! LOL!! Thanks for all the help guys, keep it coming!
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i fly with small ammo load for fighter sorties and large for attack sorties. if you run out of ammo with small load, usually means time to go home anyways, otherwise your left trying to get kill with those 50 cals. not saying not possible, but...ive had those last 1000 50cal rounds give me 2 kills, or a lot more, but its not worth it. ive stuck around with just 50cals to get my arse handed to me, because a shot that wouldve kilt the nme (if i had 20mm) didnt kill the nme, and they ended up gettting me.
but. like mentioned before, its all in what you like and your preference.
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I tend to fly with the heavy loadout if doing attack or where I think I'll be encountering bombers or such that take more hits to bring down. I go light if I'm just doing some quick fighter stuff as even the light load is enough for 4-5 kills as long as you take decent shots and not spray around a lot. The difference in performance is marginal, my tests only showed a couple 100ft/min in climb though to some that may be important. I think the main problem with the heavy ammo load is due to people thinking they have to hang around until it's all gone though, new players seem to have that problem. They get used to being in a plane where they run out of ammo sooner, typically at a point where they should leave anyway, where in the P38 they try and hang around until they run out of ammo and usually run out of E/position long before that and don't make it back to base.
Just my opinion though. Four .50's is lots for fighter kills, especially with that tight nose package... I can still make those D600 shots with theh P-38 with the new gunnery model, something I can't do with other aircraft with wing mounted guns.
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I have to admit that I dont have benchmarks per-se when deploying flaps in a tight turning situation. Like climbing a steep hill in a truck, I can tell from the sound of the engine, when the bottom speed of a gear is approaching. Similarly in the 38 I can tell from the engine sound, max-g, and nose weight when Im approaching the bottom speed of a flap setting. To carry that anology a little further, I do "upshift", and "downshift" my flaps alot when crossing through different speed windows. The biggest que to me is the difficulty or ease it takes to maintain 'tunnel vision' Gs.
Getting "stuck in the air" is a result of stalling out of the verticle on your belly with full flaps instead of "going over the top". In AH2 the 38 is a little more nose down biased in that situation than it was in AH1, and slightly more attention needs to to paid to breaching true verticle to aviod belly flopping. If you do start to flop push the stick ahead, and retract flap immediately to avoid the flat freefall. You should look for an enterance speed of at least 120 to safely make it over the top.
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Originally posted by MaddogJoe
AKAK, got a question for you, and Murdr and any other 38 pilot that may want to chime in...
On flap useage. I think I may be running them out at the "wrong" times. On the boards you have said that if you roll out the flaps at the wrong times you can get stuck in the air instead of the nose rolling down nice and clean and quick. Can you guys give some timing markers about when to hit each flap? I know it goes a lot by "feel" but if you can get us rookies in the ballpark, maybe we can find the bases :)
I use your stick config AKAK, and at first thought it was way too soft, but now that I'm getting use to it I find I'm better at holding my "E". So I have the maneuvers down, working on getting the flaps down, still got alot of work to do in the "aim" department (glad AH2 has all those farms, now I got barns I can finally hit!), and have gotten over 1000 kills in the 38. I figure in another year or so I might be good ! LOL!! Thanks for all the help guys, keep it coming!
Hmmm...tough question. It's kind of hard to tell someone when the right times to deploy the flaps. It's more of a "feeling" you get through experience but there is a guideline that might help.
All speeds are in Indicated Air Speed
250mph = 1 notch
200mph = 2 notches
150mph = 3 notches
125mph = 4 notches
100mph or slower = 5 notches
Remember, this is just a guideline to give you an idea when you should start thinking about deploying your flaps. Through time and experience you will get the "feel" as to when you should deploy your flaps. Hopefully this guideline will make the learning curve a little less steep.
Oh, one last thing. It is a must that you have Combat Trim disabled as it will counteract any lift the flaps provide.
ack-ack