Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: humble on August 25, 2004, 02:02:00 PM
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I liked the "new" FM alot during the beta and after flying for a week or so now like it even more...I've got one question however.
I've noticed a tendency for the various planes to "fall thru the floor" under certain circumstances. Basically they "feel" like they are literally falling. I've actually never had it happen to me in a furball...but have had it happen on "wingovers" etc when I'm over a buff etc...lawn darted a pony setting up a pass on a goon over the weekend...ARGGHH:eek:
My question is really related to accelerated stalls etc...normally if you "unload' the stick you can easily recover. Here it seems like there is no lift under certain circumstances yet visually I'm in a "nose down" attitude to some degree with the plane "mushing" tremendously and pancaking. I've also seen others experience it in low furballs...it's not a loss of controlled flight in any sense I'm used to as much as a significantly greater sink rate under certain conditions. Curious if those real pilots with acrobatics experience consider this a more accurate representation or not??
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I've been experiencing the same thing. Figured it was my stick (even though its only a few weeks old). I'm on the bottom side of a loop doing about 230 to 250, I pull the stick and bang...I'm in a spin.
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Originally posted by NoBaddy
I've been experiencing the same thing. Figured it was my stick (even though its only a few weeks old). I'm on the bottom side of a loop doing about 230 to 250, I pull the stick and bang...I'm in a spin.
im having the same problem.
i have been playing with the stick setting / deadbands, but that only hinders my performance.
with the way i have it set now (rarely stall over) a 109g10 at 150mph can turn inside my 109g2.
i guess im just having alot of troubles adapting.
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Don't know if its just me or it's somewhat related, but I am finding that I have to recalibrate my stick multiple times while in the game.
I calibrate and stick movement seems smooth and fine. Fly along for awhile or replane and the next thing I know, any stick movement becomes over exagerated and bouncy.
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I've not recalibrated, but it seems bouncy to me as well. Especially the 109s and spits. I can't seem to hold the nose still long enough to release any shots on the target. I also can't seem to keep a 109 in a flat turn at all (this could be my flying ability though LOL)
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Slapshot, I've noticed the same thing. Having to recalibrate more frequently to get the bounce out out a dive. Hard to line up on a shot when it looks like you need new shocks.
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I think the original post described a situation that has to do with the stick not the FM.
I say this because I have a REALLY crappy Logitech stick. Many of you know what that means. When it's acting up (read: 95% of the time) I can't pull smooth moves on ANY axis, and I *WILL* stall/spin out at 350 with the slightest of pulls in any direction.
It's a crappy stick. It's a hint you might have a Logitech.
Not *necessarily* the FM, mind you, but not necessarily excluding it either.
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Whew!! I thought I couldn't fly anymore! yes it has happened to me opn more than one occasion. I feel better. I used to be able to fly and not shoot. I thougth i lost everything:)
The spinning at the top of a loop has occured in several different planes so I'm suspecting modeling or my stick is screwed. Or maybe even both.
Peace
Pillur
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Originally posted by Krusty
I think the original post described a situation that has to do with the stick not the FM.
I say this because I have a REALLY crappy Logitech stick. Many of you know what that means. When it's acting up (read: 95% of the time) I can't pull smooth moves on ANY axis, and I *WILL* stall/spin out at 350 with the slightest of pulls in any direction.
It's a crappy stick. It's a hint you might have a Logitech.
Not *necessarily* the FM, mind you, but not necessarily excluding it either.
As Homer would say..."D'oh!". Same thing with my Thrustmaster. :)
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What I'm describing is not a spin issue...I almost never spin out except on purpose. However I can see how this would lead to a "flat spin" as described in 38/mossie/110 elsewhere. I've noticed that once the plane is on the "edge" of the flight envelope your coming out with tremendous sink compared to AH1 in the vertical. It seems like the plane is picking up speed without generating any lift...any back pressure on the stick only locks you up in an accelerated stall (which is totally correct with a high AoA) but visually I feel like I'm nose down. One of the leading causes of low altitude accidents is failure to recover from an unusual attitude (primarily due to wake turbulance or microburst) where the pilot fails to unload the airplane (worst example was the 737 in pittsburgh...full stall for over a minute at well over 200mph). Anyway based on my limited experience the "sink rate" feels excessive.
Now this would relate to some of the stuff posted assuming that the FM is recreating "buffeting" at the edge of controlled flight. So far I'm "recovering" my throttling back, which seems to help minimize the sink. Since I'm not stalled or spinning it seems a bit "wrong" somehow...but again I've got no real world acrobatic experience and I dont think my CFI's up to be playing with his 172 to work this one out:)
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Originally posted by humble
What I'm describing is not a spin issue...I almost never spin out except on purpose. However I can see how this would lead to a "flat spin" as described in 38/mossie/110 elsewhere. I've noticed that once the plane is on the "edge" of the flight envelope your coming out with tremendous sink compared to AH1 in the vertical. It seems like the plane is picking up speed without generating any lift...any back pressure on the stick only locks you up in an accelerated stall (which is totally correct with a high AoA) but visually I feel like I'm nose down. One of the leading causes of low altitude accidents is failure to recover from an unusual attitude (primarily due to wake turbulance or microburst) where the pilot fails to unload the airplane (worst example was the 737 in pittsburgh...full stall for over a minute at well over 200mph). Anyway based on my limited experience the "sink rate" feels excessive.
Now this would relate to some of the stuff posted assuming that the FM is recreating "buffeting" at the edge of controlled flight. So far I'm "recovering" my throttling back, which seems to help minimize the sink. Since I'm not stalled or spinning it seems a bit "wrong" somehow...but again I've got no real world acrobatic experience and I dont think my CFI's up to be playing with his 172 to work this one out:)
Think I know what you mean Humble. The planes generally feel heavier when you are close to the ground don't they. I remember this feeling strongly in beta - fighting close to the ground I ploughed in a number of times. You can't pull out quite as quickly as in AH1 , it's like momentum is taking you down, when you are trying to take you up. - if you know what I mean.
I think you get used to it, but I am still more careful in very low turnfights than I used to be.
It seems to me , it gives you a better feeling of the weight of these things, but having never flown one, I have no idea of which FM is more realistic.
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Yea, I've noticed the same thing, especially in heavier planes like the P47D40 and F6f near the ground.
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Originally posted by humble
It seems like the plane is picking up speed without generating any lift...any back pressure on the stick only locks you up in an accelerated stall (which is totally correct with a high AoA) but visually I feel like I'm nose down.
Lift is not generated unless you are within the limits (+/-) of a wings designed AoA. (have no idea how this is modeled) You can be in a "stall" at any airspeed and any attitude. Pulling only exasperates the situation... while not pushing over hard or long enough will have the same result. All the while gravity is playing it's little trick on you and dragging you down
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Since I'm not stalled or spinning it seems a bit "wrong" somehow...
A spin will NOT occur if you have the "ball" centered while in the stall. You will simply fall from the sky like a brick. See above for stall info, but basically you could be right with the modeling or you could NOT be "Breaking" the stall in order to regain the control need to pull out.
I flew some aerobatics in college while earning my ratings and certificates. I've experienced (as I'm sure most pilots who have flown aerobatics has at one point or another) the stall that you are talking about. On the back side of a loop I got to anxious to get to the hammerhead and acc. stalled.
My instructor basically laughed at me as I fell damn near a thousand feet wonder why the airplane wouldn't go where I was wanting it to go unitil I full broke the stall and was able to get the nose back above the horizon !!!
So I guess the bottom line is it may be the modeling... . or it may be VERY good modeling in that it's not letting you recover until you completely recover from the stall.
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FTndr....
Thanks...my only question is regarding orientation...visually I'm in a nose down situation with reasonable speed (and no stall horn) auditorily the "wind" noise is increasing...stick back pressure should initiate a pull out...yet it "feels" like I'm falling straight down...
assuming that I'm actually in a full stall to initiate the event then as I leave the airframe unloaded I'd assume that as soon as airspeed and AoA enabled flight I've "recovered"...when you fell out of the hammerhead I'd assume "controlled flight" started with a nose down attitude as soon as airspeed reached the required minimium. I know in RL a major issue in unusual attitude recovery is "restalling" the bird...anyway thanks for the insight...
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Humble can you try get a film of the condition you are seeing?
HiTech
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fwiw, i've noticed this all tehway back to teh early AH2 releases... just very infrequently... your plane kind of "falls" almost "pulls" belly into the ground and it seems you had no elevator input whatsoever. and no, my elevs' weren't shot off. i've noticed it happen at speeds where i shook my head and went, huh?
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Originally posted by hitech
Humble can you try get a film of the condition you are seeing?
HiTech
I might have one...I've been filming a bunch...I cant seem to duplicate it on purpose. I'll just keep on filming till I get it:) (if not on clip already)
99% of the time it's simply a "heavier" feel but the other 1% is exactly as shane describes it below. Whats funny is it isnt at the "edge" of the flight envelope where I'd expect it. It seems to happen on a more "lazy" type of "wing over"...where your simply letting the nose fall on thru instead of "pulling it thru in a combat ACM situation....I'll look thru my clips tonight...
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Originally posted by Shane
fwiw, i've noticed this all tehway back to teh early AH2 releases... just very infrequently... your plane kind of "falls" almost "pulls" belly into the ground and it seems you had no elevator input whatsoever. and no, my elevs' weren't shot off. i've noticed it happen at speeds where i shook my head and went, huh?
Happened to me last night in a La5 I might actually have a film of i though (HT i'll look tonight and send you the film).
Now I was at the top of a loop but Basically i dropped like a brick through a couple of thousand feet before leaving a plane-shaped imprint in the soil. Very much what FTndr described. Only i couldn't break out of it.
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Originally posted by humble
FTndr....
Thanks...my only question is regarding orientation...visually I'm in a nose down situation with reasonable speed (and no stall horn) auditorily the "wind" noise is increasing...stick back pressure should initiate a pull out...yet it "feels" like I'm falling straight down...
assuming that I'm actually in a full stall to initiate the event then as I leave the airframe unloaded I'd assume that as soon as airspeed and AoA enabled flight I've "recovered"...when you fell out of the hammerhead I'd assume "controlled flight" started with a nose down attitude as soon as airspeed reached the required minimium. I know in RL a major issue in unusual attitude recovery is "restalling" the bird...anyway thanks for the insight...
My pleasure.. :)
Would assume that the stall warning horn would be on if you were in a "stalled" situation. Sounding like the perverbal "fall thru the crack" type of coding situation that once isolated will be corrected.
Just a quick reminder on stalls.... Always remember that stalls are a function of AoA and not Attitude.
Not sure how much experience you have with this so forgive me if I sound presumptious. AoA is the difference between the "relative wind" (your a/c moving thru the air) and the "Cord Line" (center of leading edge to center trailing edge of wing) of the wing. Most of your cessna's and pipers stall around 13 degree's AoA.
As the a/c is yanked and banked about the sky you are constantly changing the AoA (if only momentarlly), this includes the vertical.
The stall I had while doing the aerobatics occured while the nose was pointed straight at the ground. I was attempting to pull (nose up) from that position when I induced the accelerated stall @ about 120 mph. The nose (relative to it's previous position) only moved "up" about 20 degrees but the flight path stayed basically straight down.
Had I not been in co-ordinated flight (ball centered) at the time, then at minimum, a wing would have drop off, and at worst I would have "snap" rolled it.
As it was... Having never stalled going straight down before I was a bit slow on the uptake as to why my hammerhead wasn't going to happening. There I was looking out at the horizon (which is up as you are sitting in the seat) and the horizon just kept going. :eek: Once it hit me I released all the back pressure on the stick and the plane recovered. Then it was level out and listen to my instructor snicker in the headset :o
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Didn't realise you did aerobatics NDR. It explains alot :):lol
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I note what I assume to be an increased gravitational inertia effect in AH2 at the bottom of loops.........
ie whilst I pull the nose level out of the dive the downward vector remaining is now higher (in AH2 than it was in AH1) and takes longer to fade.
This reveals it self as an apparant lack of elevator authority or at lower speeds it seems to bring on stall (high speed stall?) characturistics earlier.
I could not comment on the correctness just the apparant difference.
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yeah, what tilt said. he decribed it much better.
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Once it hit me I released all the back pressure on the stick and the plane recovered. Then it was level out and listen to my instructor snicker in the headset
I have zero hours of acrobatics and less than 100 hrs overall (spread over more than a few years). My only "real world" experience that would be similiar is 3 hrs (+ classroom) of unusual attitude recovery work done at williams AFB with a friend who was an instuctor there. Basically it all came down to recognition (actually the hardest part), unloading the aircraft, recovery (if needed...usually just unloading did it). Most problems occured by under reacting initially and then overreacting and "re-stalling" the plane. Anyway I was suprised that unloading had no effect...I think Tilt is right on in describing a significant part...however the initial "falling" preceeds the difficulty pulling out...guessing the "downward" vector (I know I'm not saying that correctly) far exceeds the "lift" being generated under some circumstances...