Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Curval on August 26, 2004, 07:35:00 AM
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I have just started to try and use this wonderful new technology.
It requires me to bascally relearn how to fly and fight at the same time.
Why is that?
Well, after quite a bit of practicing gunnery etc offline I took up a plane in the MA.
My views were all over the place.
After a while I had to really concentrate to figure out why it is so tough. Eventually I figured it out.
When I flew previously I simply did not keep my head still. It is obvious now that when in a rolling scissors, for example, I was always subconsciously moving my head to get a better view (while using snap view on my joystick hat). Obviously this didn't actually help me....the view is what it is, and only movement of the aircraft expanded that view...not any head movement. But, I did it anyway.
Now I realise that I litterally have to retrain myself to keep my head as still as possible and move it ONLY when I want to look around.
It isn't something that is going to be simple, but in the long run I think it will be fantastic.
Until that time I'm gonna get killed alot.
Anyone else in the same boat?
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You can create a deadband in the forward view area to allow more accurrate aiming. This wont you wont have to sit like you have a neck colar on.
Some folks click it off to fire. Dont be afraid about recentering often. Little bits of body english that you use but may be unaware of while fighting can throw off your center.
Adjust the pan speed to a point where you are comfortable.
Also learn not to "turn your head" but lean.
I have been using track IR for a long time. I would not fly any game that didnt have.
I dont fly AH anymore and dont have an AH profile. Maybe some of the other folks can share their profile with you.
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Body English....that is what I was trying to say is my downfall. I use ALOT of it subconsciously.
When you say you can "set up" a deadband, exactly how is this done?
A squaddie posted some screen shots of his set-up which I have emulated but I still need a bigger one (deadzone).
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I dont recall from memory. When I get home this evening I will post after I take a look at it.
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Does AH2 work well yet with track IR or is there some complicated work around to get it to function usefully?
IKON
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How many track ir users have tried the snap instead of pan mode?
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Originally posted by 1K0N
Does AH2 work well yet with track IR or is there some complicated work around to get it to function usefully?
IKON
Works great...plug it in and it works.
Hitech...haven't tried it yet, but that would probably defeat the whole purpose of switching from hats on a j/s to track ir.
What I mean by that is that the pan mode allows the pilot to see in between the snap views...the views that you cannot see when you "snap". Maybe I'm missing something and I haven't tried it yet...but I'm interested to hear why you think the snap mode is beneficial.
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Curval:
1. It gives you a dead band for everywhere you are looking.
2. It works more like real life. When you are normaly looking around you typicly do not slowy move your eyes, but rather dart them from point to point. This is more like the snap mode.
3. Steadys the gun sight postion.
Would realy like some people to give it a real try. I.E. for 2 days, then see if they have the same opionion.
HiTech
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Originally posted by hitech
How many track ir users have tried the snap instead of pan mode?
I use snap. Both actually...I'll use pan while going from one field to another. Once I get close to contested area I switch to snap.
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Originally posted by hitech
Curval:
1. It gives you a dead band for everywhere you are looking.
2. It works more like real life. When you are normaly looking around you typicly do not slowy move your eyes, but rather dart them from point to point. This is more like the snap mode.
3. Steadys the gun sight postion.
Would realy like some people to give it a real try. I.E. for 2 days, then see if they have the same opionion.
HiTech
Will do then.
I agree with the realism aspect of snap views...except realistically one can make subtle adjustments after darting to one specific point.
I will try it though and will let you know.
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Originally posted by Curval
Works great...plug it in and it works.
Hitech...haven't tried it yet, but that would probably defeat the whole purpose of switching from hats on a j/s to track ir.
What I mean by that is that the pan mode allows the pilot to see in between the snap views...the views that you cannot see when you "snap". Maybe I'm missing something and I haven't tried it yet...but I'm interested to hear why you think the snap mode is beneficial.
Good, I will order Track ir now!
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SOunds fun! I wanna know how you turn your head all the way around to ck 6?? lol
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Originally posted by TheDudeDVant
SOunds fun! I wanna know how you turn your head all the way around to ck 6?? lol
Nah..I thought the same thing. You just turn your head about 5-10 degrees and you are looking back.
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Originally posted by Curval
Nah..I thought the same thing. You just turn your head about 5-10 degrees and you are looking back.
and only 2-5degs for left or right? lil less for quarters?
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Hitech, I found that using the snap view mode (which I started out in) left me asking myself why I was bothering with TIR. If all I am doing is transferring view inputs from my JS to my noggin, than I didnt find much utility in having it.
I use PAN exclusively with a sizable deadband for the front view (I utilize edberts profile posted on naturalpoints messageboard). Not losing view of a plane between views is the greatest benefit of pan view. I can smoothly watch as the enemy turns, jinks etc.. and respond immediately versus, changing views, reorienting myself, and then flying the airplane.
To smoothly track an opponent, and "fly" the plane into a solution seems much more attactive a use for TIR. I flew in snap view for my entire flight simulator career, so it is where I naturally started out with TIR and AHII.
Breaking the snap view habit isnt easy, but the benefits far outweigh the frustration.
Balsy
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Originally posted by Curval
Body English....that is what I was trying to say is my downfall. I use ALOT of it subconsciously.
:lol I do the exact same thing! I have a headset with cord which looks like a standard telephone receiver's cord (all coiled up). I can't count the number of times I've been set up above an enemy during a rope and I slowly lean forward and left as I rudder over to drop on him. As I'm zooming down, I automatically straighten up only to find the coils are now tangled on the keyboard tray and my head gets yanked back down :eek: It really tends to blow a good setup ;)
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Originally posted by TheDudeDVant
and only 2-5degs for left or right? lil less for quarters?
Correct...panning only though so far don't forget.
ROFL Alpo...I know EXACTLY what you mean.:D
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TrackIR has been discussed mostly in the hardware forums. See these threads:
http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=125374
http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=126929
I had (still have) big problems due to too much body english, I had no idea how much I moved around in a dogfight. Creating large deadbands helped that a lot. I also slowed down the movement pretty drastically and saved a custom profile. I posted my AH2 profile in one thread over there in the hardware forum a while back.
Hitech, I have used the snap view, and have a key on the cougar that swaps it from pan to snap and back again. I generally find the snap to be less disorienting than the pan, but also a little less immersive/natural. For gunnery I have a KP8 mapped that seems to over-ride the TIR movement and lock the gunsite view down tight while pressed.
I use the TIR a great deal in the MA, but if I ever get in deep with multiple cons I am at a disadvantage versus my hats. This is not the fault of the device, it is that I have been using hats for views for nearly 15 years. Some habits are hard to break.
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I'm using the pan mode. Snap is the same as the hat switch so there's no need. I love pan for attack runs scanning the ground for GV's outside of the snap views.
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Edbert, thanks. I will try that.:aok
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How do you wear your "dots" :) (http://forums.checksix.net/forum_posts.asp?TID=2707&PN=1)
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Originally posted by Curval
How do you wear your "dots" :) (http://forums.checksix.net/forum_posts.asp?TID=2707&PN=1)
I got the hat, the dot is sewn into the bill, there's a second larger 'dot' on the back but my head is large enough to have it not be centered (since it is on the adjustment band).
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Originally posted by hitech
How many track ir users have tried the snap instead of pan mode?
I use snap mode. It helps in transitioning from using hat switches. Maybe as I become more confy with TrackIR I'll switch to pan.
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I have tried snap as well. but prefer the pan because i can always have what i'm looking at right in the center of the screen. its good for zooming all the way in on something. plus it just seems more natural to me.
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i use pan all the time now, used snap to get used to it on first day. I had a heck of a time keeping my head steady but after i set the deadband on "agressive" it gave me a nice smooth forward view that i can gun with very well and not have alot of jumping around. as you move to the 6 view the response is much quicker so you dont have to move so much. I think the key to not haveing too much jumping around on the screen is to move your body like wotan said, for the views past 30 degrees so you dont tweak your head, and for fine movements you can use your head, gunnery ectra. all in all i have found i can take on alot more cons, at least keep track of them in a large dogfight, i dont see how turning snap on in this situation would help, tho i do look like im getting shocked by electricity when im in a dogfight:) it makes it that more fun and that more realistic.
i deleted my snap views form hat and have forward hat as pan mode, left is center, and back is the strafe head position mode. as far as using the center button, i only use this if i move my position in my seat or freak out and lose my orientaion, aka body english as bullets ping me :) tir doesnt really lose calibraiton from what i have seen, with the native support at lest.
its kinda cool i actually used to live in corvallis oregon where track ir is made, i think i saw an add for beta testers in the newspaper once, shoulda jumped on that lol.
all in all i really stand behind track ir and have become a wondering sailsman for it. i think its the best interface we have so far since the advent of the joystick for sim games.
ok ive done my tir shpeel. thanks again for getting it going in ah2 htc!
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I dont actually use either of them in combat :) Instead I use the move mode together with stick hat. Using hat is still too stronly in my spine but the move mode is a great addition for peeking around the cockpit frames.
In transition flights I have tried both snap and pan. Sometimes pan mode makes me feel nauseous if I am maneuvering the plane quick or hard.
So.. I guess I use them all :) ... but the move mode rules!
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How much is this track IR thing?Seems fun.
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How much is this track IR thing?Seems fun.
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About US$130 for the enhanced version.
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Originally posted by Curval
About US$130 for the enhanced version.
LOL I will pass for a couple of months. I liek using the keyboard anyway. :P
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Originally posted by jetb123
LOL I will pass for a couple of months. I liek using the keyboard anyway. :P
Hey, you never know. Maybe the old man will get hit by a large truck again. ;) j/k
Okay...maybe a very stupid question but:
How do you change from pan to snap mode? Is this done in AH or in the TIR software?
Also, I was REALLY hoping that I could program the page up/page down button to my hat on my j/s so that I could use it to change my head position in a dogfight to get a better view over the top of the "dashboard". It would be a huge advantage on snapshots etc IMHO. It would also be nice for carrier landings.
Is this not possible?
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You can get 15 off through SimHQ or Netwings, or atleast you could at one time.
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Both are posible:
Map the snap/pan/move mode to tracker under
Setup/Controls/Keyboard Map/View
There Four tracker functions that should be mapded Ctrl F1 - Ctrl F4
You do not need to map your hat to a key just go into
Setup/Controls/Joystick Map/View and map move up and move down directly to a hat.
HiTech
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Thanks alot Hitech.
:aok
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Originally posted by jetb123
How much is this track IR thing?Seems fun.
info here
http://www.naturalpoint.com/banners/aces_aug2004.html
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Okay...I tried to map the move up/move down to a j/s hat. I did so when I had my j/s profile loaded AND when track IR was running.
Blue screen of death.
Serious error and it said a file was corrupt.
oooops.
I haven't dared try anything yet to see if my machine is okay...so far it rebooted and I am able to get online and post here.
Fingers crossed.
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Can anyone comment on whether Track IR3 Pro is worth the extra $35 over Track IR 3 when used in AH on a PC of "modest" specification.
Further being some what of an old man these days does anyone get a stiff neck having to hold their head in various positions to work with this product.
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Yup it is, however you may search ebay for trackir 2.
(http://www.naturalpoint.com/trackir/products/images/comparison_3b.jpg)
The TrackIR 3-Pro™ is NaturalPoint®'s premium product, the best optical headtracking system available. Blazing along at a refresh rate of 120fps, TrackIR3-Pro™ is 50% faster than the TrackIR 3™ (80fps), and 4 times faster than a standard WebCam (30fps). Based on a new image processor, TrackIR 3-Pro™ has 67% more resolution and improved optical performance that allows it to work in direct sunlight, delivering a performance difference that will rock your view! TrackIR 3-Pro™ is the best optical headtracker that money can buy.
With trackIR 2 I had to pull the shade down on the window directly behind my PC. I didnt have to sit in the dark just direct sunlight would cause it to loose track.
TrackIr 3 doesnt have that problem. Thats the only difference I noticed between 3pro and 2.
Also, you only make small head movements. The trick is be be at about arms length from the device and set a decent deadband so you dont have to sit like you have a neck colar on. Then adjust the pan speed.
Then just sit comfortably. You wont be whipping your head around. Personally I find that leaning slightly while my head stays relatively straight works best for me.
As I said above I believe by going through SimHQ or Netwings you can save 15 USD on TrackIR3 pro.
If Tom (wklink) is still around maybe he can confirm.
If fact here's a post he made a while back
I think that if there appears to be a large enough of a potential following for the TIR3 then you may be able to get a discount.
Right now there is a 15 dollar discount via SimHq. Check the front page. If a different ad is on the front page when you fire up the web page just reload the page and the ad will come up.
Here is a direct link.
http://www.naturalpoint.com/banners/simhqjuly2004.html
Thomas S. Cofield
332nd Flying Mongrels
Feature Editor, SimHq.com
cofster1@simhq.com
Dunno if its still valid...
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i am also interested in seeing the benefits of the pro version, soposedly it updates a bit faster, but when its already past 25 fps im not sure why that matters. As far as the stiff neck goes, i had that the first day too, the trick is to move your head around in the range of what used to be your snap views, a good way to do this is to keep a reference point in the center of the screen and never turn head so that it goes out of site, when it does use body to control it so you dont wear out your neck. you dont really have to keep your neck that stick because as long as your gunsite is in view it doesnt matter if its in the center of the screen or not. Imagine your in a real plane shooting someone, you may point your head down and look up with your eyes a bit because your focused, you would rarely have the gunsite in dead center, as long as your eyes can track it comfertabley you just have to have a head position that allows them to do so. i do have to hold my head steady when they are in my gunsites, despite where the site is on the screen, and it does take some energy, but this just makes imersion that much better, you can bet those reall pilots had to do so.
have you noticed that if you shine light on your face it will pick up on the tracking set up screen? i didnt realize this is actualy a camera that gives out visual feedback. it simplifies everything down to 2 tone for the most part, and if you get a shape on your head that mirrors the dot on your forhead it will track that. i was kinda spooked when i saw a malovent face staring back at me . :)
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Thanks .........sorry if this answered elsewhere but more questions.......
I understand it is basically to replace the POV by exagerating pre set small head movements to either pan or snap as a POV would with those functions set.
I understand that a dead zone can be set to stabalise it........
can it be damped also?
I understand that under AH we can also have it imitated move as per the keyboard curser PU and PD keys..........
can it do both the POV bit and the move bit at the same time?
ie can I view and position my head in the cockpit moving back to see a greater field of view or forward to get a close up of the gun sight whilst then checking over a wing etc etc
and if so is move and POV available in snap and pan modes of the POV?
and can you drink coffee/beer and eat crisps etc whilst playing and using this system?
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damped = smoothing = yes
I no longer have AH2 installed so I can't tell you the details of how it has works in AH.
From reading over at the track Ir forums they are awfully happy with how it worked out in AH.
I drink beer all the time while flying FB/AEP and using track IR :p
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Tilt
In Pan and SNAP mode you get the best of both worlds.. your saved head positions!
In MOve mode, you use Your JS to obtain the view, and then the Tir to move around in the view. For instance, you can look around the engine cowling etc...up, down left or right.
Hope that helps.
Balsy
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I have been using TrackIR for a few eeks now thanks to the discount offered through AH :D
To be honset HT i dont know that there is any advantage to TrackIR because of the way you had given us the ability to move our heads and save the view. This has spoiled me as a FS and believe it is and will always be the 1 aspect thats sets AH apart from other CS.
On the other hand i truely love my TrackIR for other CS and am very glad that i bought it. Curvel map a button on your joystick to turn on /off trackIR so when you get in a fight you can turn it off nd go back to your old views. I have found this to be the best way to do it while im getting use to it. I to am still playing with my profile but believe im getting pretty close to a keeper.:cool:
I did call TrackIR other day and i guess there is a AH profile floating around that one of the guys from Naturalpoint made, ya might wanna look for it on there site.
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o ya there is a forum over at Naturalpoint for us AH guys, we need to help each other out while we brake new ground;)
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I didnt notice a difference in snap and pan, will do more testing.
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ok did some short testing on move, pan and snap. Snap just really felt like a stutter. Move and pan were cool.
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Aren't the gamma rays emitted by your monitor enough rads? Between your cell phone, microwave, television, and the local broadcasting companies, we are all going to be comming up with some hellacious tumors... Something creepy about IR attached to your skull... :lol
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Nothing is attached to your skull. You have a reflective dot made of IR tape. Mine is placed on my mic boom.
The trackir device is just like a web cam. Mine sits stop my monitor. It sends out an IR light that is reflected back and picked up by the device eye. The software tracks the position of the dot relative to center and translates that to head movement.
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TrackIR + Snap mode in AH = VERY VERY COOL! :D
Ya know i dont know if the speed is all that to be honest. I have TrackIR Pro and spend most of my time trying to slow it down :D
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My opinions...SNAP is the easiest to get used to, PAN is the most intuitive/realistic, in a multiple con environment I get less disoriented with my hats since I am sooo used to them, I have slowed my TIR3Pro down as far as I can go and it is still a little too fast for my taste, the amount of IR radiation that the device sends out in a thousand years is probably in the neighborhood of a Saturday afternoon mowing the grass with your shirt on.
TrackIR is an awesome product, their tech support is really responsive and personal over at their forums. The device takes some getting used to though, and it DOES suck up some CPU cycles, so if your rig is on the edge for FPS already this wont help.
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"I drink beer all the time "
I Knew It!:)
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it seems then that I cannot set Track IR to both imitate head rotation and head movement simultaeniously.......its either one or the other...........
I also getthe impression that what ever I set it to only 2 axis are available. Hence in move I assume I do not get left/right & up/down & forward/backward (no one has mentioned forward / backward?)
For me I think the attraction will be the "move functions" allowing me to adjust to see around cockpit frame work when in any particular view.............. I have just gotta decide if the money is worth it.......