Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: -towd_ on October 28, 1999, 11:19:00 AM
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well i know you have 10,000 other things to do at htc but postin a request with the for knowledge it may be month kinda takes the pressure off?
well to the point.
i have a favorite aircraft cause the old man the raised me as his own was in a 38 squad in ww2 (aleutian).
now i know this sucker is gona be a booger (texan for pain in the ass)to model CORRECTLY!!!.
no other sim i have flown even comes close to the true characteristics of this unconventional bird (heavyest fighter of the war till very late war i believe?)
now yall already have me hooked on ah and the conversation is dwindlin around here except for bug reports so lets conversate on the 38 for a while.
1. could carry 2 1600lb bombs?
2. one varient had norden and bombridere ? (droop nose)serve as a great med buff (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
3. unbelievable fuel endurance with tanks like 12 hours ?
4. it had turbos turbos are cool (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
5. reams of flight data?
6. convergence whe dont need no filthy steenkin convergence (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
7. Dick Bong flew one Dick Bong is cool(please make it painted like his) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
8. it fits well in the current cround?
9. i know for a fact they used napalm (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)(or rubberized gasoline as grampa called it)napalm is cool.
10. luft waffe contingent must henceforth refer to p 38 a "forked tailed devil" in german hehehehehehe (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
ps here is a url to check my facts.
http://members.xoom.com/tguettle/ (http://members.xoom.com/tguettle/)
now when i mentioned correctly as far as modelin i mean you can leave off the torq effects (unlike warbirds) and remember that in good hands in some situations l model could out turn a zeke (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif), and i have read over and over about a split throttle move that they called the "clover leaf" that was a standard move but impossible in all sims thus far that i know of?
just keepin the faith and beggin for my bird take your time and do her justice i want her warts and all
TOWD
well thats it
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TOWD You are right on! Except for one thing!
Paint it like "Putt Putt Maru!"
Flown by Col. Charles McDonald from DuBois, Pa.!
30 miles from my hometown!
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Damn Ghostrider! This bogey is all over me!!
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paint it pink with polkadots (not meanin to disrespect your previous post)for all i care but make it fly right and give it the teeth its supposed to have (1600lb x2,norden option)
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About the bomber-version, from an article by Joe Baugher:
With the increased use of the Lightning as a light bomber, the type was modified to carry in place of the forward-firing armament either a bombardier with a Norden bombsight in a glazed nose enclosure, or a "Mickey" BTO (Bombing Through Overcast) bombing radar in the nose with an operator station between the radar and the pilot's cockpit. These modifications were developed at the Lockheed Modification Center in Dallas, Texas. These so-called "droop-snoot" Lightnings were used to lead formations of P-38s each carrying two 2000-lb bombs which were released on instructions from the lead bombardier.
Better yet, model this "unique" version too:
P-38L-5-LO serial number 44-25605 was rebuilt by Hindustan Aircraft in India as a special VIP aircraft for a General Stratemeyer. The plane had a transparent nose, which made it look a lot like the "Droop Snoot" pathfinder Lightnings used in the European theatre. The General sat in a special seat inside the nose, and the inside walls of his "office" were lined with leather. There were even provisions for a built-in Thermos jug (I won't even ask what was in the jug :-)). Sort of reminds me of General Dreedle in the movie Catch 22. Nowadays, if Sixty Minutes were to get wind of such an extravagance on the part of the military, heads would roll.
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Outf_ckingstanding Towd!
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--- -towd_: ---
10. luft waffe contingent must henceforth refer to p 38 a "forked tailed devil" in german hehehehehehe
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No, we'll keep calling it a 'big bellybutton target' that it is.
Seriously, Fw 190 and P-38 are the two most anticipated FMs - for me anyway. We'll see if history ( flitesim history ) repeats it self or has something new happened...
//fats
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Uhhh... Who or What is a Dick Bong ?
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Maj.(?) Richard Bong, US Ace of Aces in WWII with 38(?) kills.
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Flathat
'Black Dahlia'
No10 RNAS "The Black Flight"
Angel on your wing, devil on your tail
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are you kiddin i will assume you are not
other than havin the coolist uniform id patch on earth.
he was americas highest scoring ace 40 or so i believe. and all if not most were in 38s.
i am no expert but he is reguarded as somthing as a god among ww2 fighter pilots.
he died i believe shortly after the war in a tragic accident.
with the strengent requirements in asaaf to get a kill this fellow probly really did kill 40 ac in somthing like a fair fight (not lots of byplanes like the lw and nipponese pilots) not in any way meaningto disparage the skill or bravery of axis pilots.
but seems lots of the kills they claimed made it home in the records.where as you needed film i believe to claim a kill in usaaf.
p.s. dickbong is a member or 44th in wb and is named in respect of dicks memory not the real one. him being dead and all
towd
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Towd,
Bong was a stud, plus he has a cool name. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
The Luftwaffe kill records were pretty meticulously maintained and you had to do a LOT of work to get them official - sometimes up to several months for the paperwork to go through. And a lot of guys lost kills at the end because the papers never went through. I'm sure there was overclaiming, but not more than any other country. The reason for big Luftwaffe kill tallies is the fact that they were in the war for 6 years, not 3 years like the US, and they flew until they died or the war ended. Even guys like Galland (a General) ended up back in the cockpit. Plus they constantly had 10:1 to 100:1 odds against the the USSR - lots of targets, all at low altitude doing ground support and escorting the attack planes. Bases were usually within 100km of the front, so several sorties were flown each day when the weather was good. And not a lot of biplanes. I have a partial list of Hartmann's 300+ kills and it's mostly Sturmoviks, LaaGs, and Yaks. The VVS were determined to control the air above the battlefield at all costs, so they took a lot of risks and paid for it when the Luftwaffe fighters were around.
As for the Japanese, they didn't keep official score of individual kills.
P.S. A story I read: VVS Ace (forgot his name) shoots up an Me 109, but the 109 ditches and is surrounded by Red Army troops. The VVS guy is pissed that he ditched, so he makes a good landing nearby, hops out, goes over to the Luftwaffe guy, strangles him to death, hops back in his plane, and shoots down some more.
P.P.S. The losses the VVS was willing to take for ground support is kind of like the losses the 8th AF was willing to take to hit German industry and civilian workers. I think 20,000 8th AF aircrew died in a little over two years. But it wore down the Luftwaffe in the west and it slowed production.
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Richard (Dick) Ira Bong was the leading American ace with 40 kills over Japanese a/c.
His P-38 was named MARGE, after is wife.
I believe he was killed shortly after, or a few days before the war ended in an accident flying a P-80 Shooting Star when assigned stateside.
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Damn Ghostrider! This bogey is all over me!!
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I don't recall if it was the P-80 but I think that was it. He had just taken off for another test flight and the engine flamed out. He was low & slow, out of runway and too low to bail. He attempted a crash landing and died in the crash.
The USAAF pulled him from active duty after the fellow, can't remember his name, that he was in the Ace Race with, just a few kills behind Bong, was killed in action and the Congress didn't want a Medal of Honor Recipient to get killed in action.
Unforgiven
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Actually, Dick Bong died when his main fuel pump sheared on takeoff. He hadn't bothered to read the pilot's handbook for the aircraft, so he hadn't bothered to turn on the secondary pump.
He flamed out 50' up.. too low to eject so he stood up in the cockpit and popped his 'chute, which unfortunately became entangled in the tailplane.
He rode the plane down to impact. A sad, wasteful end to a fine fighter pilot.
Just goes to show: RTFM
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C.O. Phoenix Squadron
www.users.bigpond.com/afinlayson/index.htm
'feel the heat .......'
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Wow...learned something new.
Thanx guys.
<Salute> to Richard Ira Bong...and "Marge" ( Both plane & wife )
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Just a question TOWD .. did the P38 have counter rotating props ?
First time i flew a Twin it was a Beech 95 Travel air i thought i can leave my feet on the floor cuz there should be no torque .. well i was pretty surprised when i put the power on and i was looking for the runway edge lights suddenly because 2 props turning in the SAME direction produce twice the torque (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
And that li'll baby only had 180 horse left and right not 1000 (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
just curious
Duckwng6
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Ok, I am a big time WWII enthusiast, especially aviataion.
P-38s do have counter rotating props. One engine has a different transmission setup on the front of the engine (the engines themselves are the same). It spun that prop the oposite direction and thus eliminates torque problems.
It also has a turbo super charger on each engine. From what I have read there is so much machinery for the exaust to run thru before leaving the tailpipe that the airplane is very quiet.
It also has some drawbacks. Its large wingspan (the same span as a modern F-16 jet) means it didn't roll too fast. It has a problem when going too fast and the controls are just too tough for a human being to arm wrestle (compression). The controls are basically a control wheel in the cockpit, cables bolted to it and run thru pulleys back to the ailerons and elevators, then bolted to them. Your biceps are the lone source of power for the controls. To add to your misery when you hit compression speeds, the plane will start to nose over and dive.....meaning you go faster....meaning you compress more...meaning you dive.....well.....sooner or latter the ground comes into play.
It also had inferior cockpit heating . The turbo-supercharger was to blame. After the exaust was run thru the turbo all of the engine heat was gone and none left to heat the cockpit. Cockpit heating doesn't sound like a big problem right? Wrong. Go get some wax paper from the kitchen and tape it to your monitor. This is to represent all the frost that forms on the inside of your cockpit when flying with no heating when the temperature is below zero degrees at 20,000 feet.
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Unforgivin'
The other pilot I believe was Thomas McGuire who at the time had 38 kills in a P-38. He turned his P-38 too hard, low and slow, after a Japanese that was attacking his wingman. Apparently he has done low and slow maneuvers before and was a master at it. I believe he had a bomb attached and did not jettison it before his maneuver. Thought he could get away with it.
Regardless, it was said Thomas McGuire could make the P-38 do amazing things and he would always push it to it's limits.
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Damn Ghostrider! This bogey is all over me!!
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Hans:
The later models had boosted ailerons, which meant you only needed like 15% ( can't recall the figure from the endless debates over at WB ) of the forces you would need w/o the boosters to deflect ailerons.
The later models also had dive flaps to overcome compressibility. P-38J-25 onwards had both of these features and we're most likely to get J-25 or L model figuring the current plane set and its timeline.
//fats
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Fats - The aileron boost only helps at high speed, where roll rate is limited by the aero. forces on the control surfaces. At low speeds the roll rate is limited by the size and shape of the ailerons and the roll stability (wingspan) of the plane. Also the twin-boom design makes the inertia about the roll axis very high, so it has slow roll acceleration.
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Again The History Channel.
They were interviewing a guy that flew with Bong and McGuire. This guy had like seven at the end of World War Two. Three German, and Four Japanese. I think he got five in Korea also.
He talked about taking a nurse with him on a morale ride, into combat. I belive they bombed some ack.
He said that Bong got several kills in the P-40, and at first he didn't like the 38. I guess McGuire loved the 38 and started catching Bong. Then Bong flew his wing a few times, and McGuire showed him how to use the 38.
Let the Races begin.
They were both (Bong and McGuire) supposedly very reckless in combat, but they were successful. This guy said they wouldn't hesitate to go into situations where they were out numbered. But working together they were lethal.
God I love the history channel.
(Also good on the episode of whatever it was called was the guy talking about his fight with Vietnams leading aces. Enough Split S's to make you puke.)
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"I could feel the 20MM Cannon impacting behind me so I made myself small behind the pilot armor" Charlie Bond AVG
lkbrown1@tir.com
http://www.tir.com/~lkbrown1 (http://www.tir.com/~lkbrown1)
Very Opinionated Person.
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--- funked: ---
Fats - The aileron boost only helps at high speed, where roll rate is limited by the aero. forces on the control surfaces.
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Yes I understand this, and I made no comment about it. Only commented on the forces needed to deflect the ailerons. Not the effect( s ) of deflected aileron at any given speed.
I have been prolly one of the most anti-38 persons in WB history - from CK.91 when it first came. I have ordered stuff from the museums and such trying to prove the P-38 WB FM wrong - w/o much success I might add ( laugh it up pyro! ). But in any case I wasn't trying to give the impression the aileron boosts made it the roll king of the universe known to man kind.
I did discover ( surely the regular P-38 fliers knew of it I am sure ) the flip-flop where you could do a ~0' radii loop with it though, and soon after the 38 FM got changed. Prolly not because of it, but it still got changed.
//fats
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About Richard Bong.
He is the current U.S. ace of aces with 40 kills.
He also had a reputation for loosing wingmen. Nobody wanted to fly with him.
Down on the ground he was also a boy-scout and didn't like drinking and carousing.
Hans.
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"punt"
i just cant get enough of that 38 stuff.
and didnt the 38 have a really incredible roll rate at hight speeds with the hydrolic boost models
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duckwing 6 asked
Just a question TOWD .. did the P38 have counter rotating props ?
well i have a unusual source. grampa was a supply sgt in the 54th (not shure but am trying to find out for shure) in the hundreds of storys one wad the first 38 they recieved at attu were little more than production prototypes (no pilot relief tube ect) and most importantly no counterrotating props he said the plane was almost suicidal to fly hard in that form and the 39s were considered worse tho somthin about ground loops what is that?
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spent the whole day tryin to find out more about my granfathers 38 squadron in alaska to little sucess. bun found out som neet stuff. according to a very detailed sight i found the early model 38 did have counter rotating props ( inboard ie port eng turned clock wise from pilots point of view) this was changed in later models because of some unfavorable flight characteristics.
also she had a 37mm gun in the early variations (one of these planes scored the the first airborn kill of ww2 for america)
charles linberg got his one and only kill of the war (as a civilian no less lol)in one
it was the only american aircraft in production at the start of the war that was still in production at the end of the war.
she had a pressurised cockpit (so you could litteraly just fly over alot of resistance and make their blood boil (a pun get it?)
the spit 9 and 38 had a mock battle in ww2 when a raf guy was braggin about spit 9 being a uber plane. the 38 spanked the 9 with a "cloverleaf" manuver that was the staple of 38 dogfightin. i suspect this was a spit throttle manuver usin the unusual layout of the plane to do what a single eng simply cannot.
just cant wait for that purty 38 (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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--- -towd_: ---
the spit 9 and 38 had a mock battle in ww2 when a raf guy was braggin about spit 9 being a uber plane.
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Perhpas there was a P-38 vs Spit IX fight, but then one I know of is P-38L versus Spitfire Mk.XV. I wouldn't put too much weight on the accuracy of the Spitfires mark as this pilot has several inaccuracies in his stories, he does point out it had five prop blades so it's something newer ( == heavier ) than Spitfire Mk.IX. Both planes apparently had half tank of gas and no ammo. Below the P-38 pilot's account ( John Lowell 364th FG ) as found in a book called 'Top Guns'.
"We agreed to cross over the field at 5,000 feet, then anything goes. I took off in a new P-38L after my crew chief had removed the ammo and put back the minimum counterbalance, dropped external tanks, and sucked out half the internal fuel. I climbed very high, so that as I dive down to cross over the field at 5,000 feet, I would be close to 600 mph. When Donaldson and I crossed, I zoomed straight up while watching him try to get on my tail. When he did a wingover from loss of speed, I was several thousand feet above him, so I quickly got on his tail. Naturally he turned into a full power right Lufbery as I closed in. I frustrated that with my clover-leaf, and if we'd had "hot guns", he would have been shot down. He came over the field with me on his tail and cut throttle, dropped flaps, and split-Sed from about 1,000 feet. I followed him with the new flaps, banked only about forty-five degrees, but still dropped below treetops.
The men of the 364th were watching this fight and saw me go out of sight below treetops. Several of them told me later that they thought I would crash. But they were wrong! All I had to do was move over behind the Spit XV again...[ rest omited ]"
To be honest anyone can win if you have enough smash to out zoom your opponent in the merge. And it seems he did build quite a reserve pre-merge. In AH/AW/WB though I would be quite surprised to see P-38L win, let alone dominate the fight like above, 1on1 _duel_ against Spitfire Mk.IX.
//fats
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thanks for that cool post (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
i agree 38 wont be a uber plane in the hands og anyone but a master. but with a correct modeling i think it will be a cool plane able to really frustrate a opponent with quick manuvers and great (better that anything else because of lack of torq?) low speed handling. and the cloverleaf (i wold love to see exactly what that move entails
thanks again for the correction/verification
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Does anyone actually know what this "clover-leaf" move is exactly?
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. The P-38D featured a new low-pressure oxygen system, which supplanted the old high-pressure oxygen system of earlier versions. This system became standard on all subsequent production models.
this i ment the cabin was pressurised ad a mask would not be termed hi or low pressure right?
here is my source
http://www.csd.uwo.ca/~pettypi/elevon/baugher_us/p038-01.html (http://www.csd.uwo.ca/~pettypi/elevon/baugher_us/p038-01.html)
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also the cealing was listed at 39,000 ft for the d model (real early) that is around blood boilin point isnt it? the l model shurely went to the 40s i must have had a pressureised cabin no?
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According to this book, "WWII Air War" by Cowles History Group, Captain Richard I. Bong became famous when he starting flying wing with Lt. Col. Thomas J. Lynch. Their team became known as "the Flying Circus." They became such a successful duo in their and morale booster that they were allowed freedom in mission creation and execution not given to anyone else in my knowledge. Both flew P-38s in the Pacific Arena while together.
Lynch died when the Flying Circus strafed a Japanese ship convoy just north of Aitape Harbor, what appeared to be three fishing boats and three barges. On Lynches second pass, he was struck by small arms fire which knocked out his right engine. Lynch ditched in the jungle near the harbor and was never found. I can't find a record of his final tally here.
Richard Bong died pretty much like stated above by a few people, when his P-80 Shooting Star flamed out too low to survive a bailout attempt. Credited with 40 kills.
I love the P-38! Its gotta be the coolest looking fighter of all time. If I could have one plane, it would be a P-38. After that, it would have to be Austin Powers' jet with the rotating bed. I doubt well see a jumbo jet in the sim anytime soon, so I'm anxiously awaing the P-38!
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Swoosh of the Skeleton Crew
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went and bought a interact cyclone j stick today.
the main selling point ?
2 throttles, can u say cloverleaf?
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Fats reported:
I did discover ( surely the regular P-38 fliers knew of it I am sure ) the flip-flop
+++++++++++
Ah, yes, the famous flip-flop sightings of WB. That was quite a cult following for some time. <g>
Worr, out
[This message has been edited by worr (edited 02-25-2000).]
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As I recall the cloverleaf was a simple wingover. Outside engine firewalled; inside at idle; tromp the rudder.
Hang
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First Dick Bong was a horrible shot (that IS NOT a lie either) i think he didnt hit a darn thing he shot at for his first many combats. Even after taking some "remedial" Gunnery training it really didnt help him at all. CURE= Get pretty darn close until you cant miss (i.e. Erich Hartmann).
As far as the counter-rotating props, the answer is YES they were. Hence a very old Army Airforce song (taken from one if my @200 aviation books) that goes like this:
Dont give me a P-38
With Props that Counter-rotate
It will look loop, roll and spin
but soon auger in
Dont give me a P-38
The P-39 had its own song too:
Dont give me a P-39
with an engine thats mounted behind
It will tumble and roll
and dig a big hole
Dont give me a P-39
I have some other interesting data on some planes and songs from the AAF but i will post them in the appropriate forum.
Sincerly,
GrumbleGrumble
Formerly Ivan the Terrible on GEnie Airwarrior in the early 90's
aka Gen. Ivanovitch Krukinsky
Former 2400Baud Yak-9D Pilot extrordinare' (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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What is really interesting is that the engine location of the P-39 made it very amneuverable (But watch those spins!). I beleieve that is one reason the Russian pilots loved it. I believe the Russians weren't `afraid' or trained better for the stall, which is why they were so successful with it. Or was it just that the U.S. Army Air Force only wanted planes that could fly at altitude, and since they weren't putting the superchargers in the P-39 as originally intended, they just shipped them to Russia. I do know some were kept stateside for training (Per Yeager's book), but does anyone have more REAL info on why the P-39s were so disliked by the US and were so well liked by the Russians?
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Grumble;
If you get time can you look something up for me?
I seem to remember reading somewhere, that in the same time period that Bong scored all of his victories, Hartman only had something like 9 kills.
Hartman and many other German Aces, became extremely experienced fighting against the inferior Soviet Air Force during the period of time right after Germany opened that front.
Does this sound right?
Thanks in advance. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Mino
The Wrecking Crew
Trainer
[This message has been edited by Minotaur (edited 02-25-2000).]
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I've got part of the requested info:
Hartmann claimed his 9th kill on his 117th mission on April 28th, 1943. It was a LaGG-3.
From Hartmann's log book, published in the appendix of "The Blond Knight Of Germany."
MiG
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Fly Hard, Land Soft
http://www.cutthroats.com (http://www.cutthroats.com)
[This message has been edited by MiG Eater (edited 02-25-2000).]
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maybe I've got my acro terminology mixed up but a modern day common clover leaf is nothing but a series of ussually 4 loops that make the shape of a clover.
this mystic maneuver crap is just that.
only way i can see that being an advantage is hammering over with 1 engine idled insta quick on each one and descending back in to kill.
lots of terminology has changed since the 40's though (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Lots of fine pilot's flew inferior aircraft,so do not judge it as "they only killed biplanes and such" some of the Luftwaffe guys started in Spain,went on to poland,France,and the BOB, before they went to Russia. Dick Bong was never known as Ira,
that was Ira Kepford. In closing, remember,
if it has guns it can kill you, and anybody who has faced those guns 200 times (and probably more) and came away alive does deserve credit for being very good at what they do.
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pzvg- "5 years and I still can't shoot"
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Well the P-40 and B-17 were in Production during the whole war.
And I think the P-47 was in production when the war started.
I don't know that it was called a clover leaf but according to the History Channel Show about Aces I saw, McGuire taught Bong the Tactic. After Bongs first Tour he went back to the Pacific as a gunner instructor, and was not supposed to fly combat. I saw a letter from Hap Arnold Chastising Bong when he got his 36s. The Letter said that Bong was an instructor and not supposed to be flying combat missions. Apparently being Chastised by Hap Arnold didn't deter Richard "Dick" I. (Ira) Bong.
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Lincoln "Downtown" Brown.
lkbrown1@tir.com
http://www.tir.com/~lkbrown1 (http://www.tir.com/~lkbrown1)
Wrecking Crews "Drag and Die Guy"
Hals und beinbruch!