Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Charon on August 26, 2004, 03:30:09 PM
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Time once again to call on the AH bbs of experts. I just shampooed the carpet in my basement and all went pretty well but one 13’x14’ room. My wife did that one and I believe she over wet the carpet. What developed was a strong odor, like when you leave the clothes in the washing machine for a couple of days by accident. There was also respiratory irritation, seemed to even burn the eyes.
I figured it was mold, and began pulling up the carpet (a berber) to sanitize the floor and start on replacement. Well, no sign of mold anywhere on the pad or the carpet backing (there was never any sign on the carpet fibers). Pulled up the pad in a few spots and no sign. Pad is still slightly damp in a few spots. Lifted some of the ceiling tiles in the room to check of the humidity triggered something up there, no signs. The odor seemed to actually decrease as the carpet top was folded on itself.
I have heard that bacteria can cause some odors and irritations, but there is far less information around about this than mold. Instead of dropping $300 on new carpet I am tempted to lightly spray the whole thing with a color-safe bleach solution and let it dry, then refit it. Apparently this isn’t something you should do with mold, but it should kill bacteria if that is the issue. In general, moisture isn’t a problem for me in the basement so we’re not prone to mold, but a friend just had $10,000 in mold damage so I don’t want to take it for granted either. Any advice?
Charon
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A dehumidifier would help. A lot.
Mold and mildew tend to have a hard time growing in the absence of moisture.
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I did that when the odor got strong Westy. I ran a big commercial 50-pint/day type unit I rented all night last night and maybe pulled out a gallon from the whole basement (its been raining with higher humidity too). I have central air running also and fans for 3 days now. Having the carpet pulled off the pad should help finish it.
Next time I pay someone to do this crap.
[edit: I screwed up by not doing this stuff from the start. Waited a day on the fans, three days on the dehumidifier]
Charon
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http://ianrpubs.unl.edu/Textiles/nf200.htm
Hope it works out for you...your best bet might be jsut to replace the carpet.
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in an exposed situation like carpet (as opposed to behind dry-wall or the like), there wouldn't necessarily have to be anything you could see for the molds to be there. inside walls and at other out of the way locations, it has a good chance to get very out of hand before symptoms occur, so it leaves visual evidence, when the problem comes up quick there will be much less to see.
some are being found to have some serious health problems that come along with them. there is very little hard info on molds, even less with bacteria.
the problem with this situation of knowing there's a problem but not having any idea exactly what should be done about it (obviously it needs to be removed and cleaned, but there are no real industry standards that are universally excepted), is that it leaves a wide-open market for con-men and unscrupulous contractors. they say you have mold, and start draining your wallet. there have been a few stories going around (though nothing I've personally run into), of contractors getting positive test results, and when the owner seems less than enthusiastic about paying for mold abatement, they threaten to take test results to insurance companies, or local health code people to threaten the homeowner with condemning the property. mostly this kind of scam is pulled on hotels and apartments where the owner is threatened with loss of income if regulatory agencies deem their property unsafe to occupy.
with the molds there is a realization of problems but only a few that have been cataloged and accepted as 'known dangers', as of last summer (my last training update) there were little or no standards set for exposer levels or much in the way of hard figures at all. most of the research is originally done as to how it affects occupational health and safety standards, so I wouldn't expect a lot of new info any time soon.
you can get test kits for the more common molds (though I don't know where you'd purchase them for retail sale), just a treated swab that you rub on the suspected area and send in for results.
I'd reconsider running your central air though, if it does turn out to be a mold problem, you are running a good chance of having to de-con your duct work. I'd use rental de-humidifiers and fans, maybe even price a HEPA filter unit to clean the air, all rentals that you can rent, clean, and take away from your home when finished.
since your problem came on fairly quickly it shouldn't be too extensive, mostly just removal of the effected material.
if you do decide to remove it yourself I might be able to be of some help.
>standard disclaimer>>> I couldn't give actual advice for your situation(since I'm not there, covered by insurance, or licensed in your state). but I could discus, hypothetically, what sort of personal protection a person who had found themselves in your situation might want to take while handling the mess.
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i like wet carpet.
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I ended up spraying the carpet and pad with a product called Milgo Plus by Dri Eaz using a hand sprayer. It's fairly saturated but not near what you get with a carpet cleaner. This stuff is hospital grade and kills just about anything. I'll see what it smells like tomorrow after some fan drying. At least with the rug loose its easier to fold things up and dry the pad. If it still stinks it's bye bye time. I'm lucky to live in a dry house with an electrostatic air filter so I don't anticipate too many future problems.
Like an idiot I used minimal precautions with the Milgo then went online to check the safety data sheet (the little "just add" packages didn't have one). Even though it can cause everything from blindness to respiratory arrest I seem to only have gotten the "irritation" level exposure. I used to be this stupid when I was young and invincible and doing fabricating/assembly type work around stuff like toluene, kaowool and asbestos, and I guess I haven't gotten much wiser in my older age.
Thanks for the help all. And thanks for the detailed advice Apathy. I was planning on using a pollen grade dust mask, plastic bags for the padding and just rolling up and running with the carpet if I have to take it out. Then wash the floor and walls with a bleach solution. I have a HEPA dust filter I would be running in the room at the same time.
Charon
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Don't get completely nuts looking for "black mold." Its more of a law suit hazzard than a health hazzard.
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Don't get completely nuts looking for "black mold." Its more of a law suit hazzard than a health hazzard.
Well I found some :) Yeah I know the deal Opus, but to be honest I have allergies and I dammed well felt them when I was in the room. Sinuses kicked in, chest tightened, throat burned... I'm actually more concerned about any potential LT remediation and reconstruction issues. I mentioned earlier the buddy that had to have major work done because of growth in the walls where his new addition joined the main house.
Went to do the fan thing and the carpet still stunk. Cut it up and took it to the curb for pickup tomorrow, then pulled up the padding. Under one section where the carpet was wet the longest (and where I expected to find it if it was there) there was about three square feet of light mold. Not even enough to have any mass or show through the padding.
I got out the bleach (the ammonia stuff was too strong to use without gloves, etc. and washed down the room (I like bleach better anyway). The previous treatment was dry enough at the concrete level (totally dry but for some very slight baseboard residue) not to generate any real chlorine gas when I wiped the floor. It's funny. Ammonia, chlorine and some very light chlorine gas action and the dammed mold was the harshest of the bunch.
Apathy, what concerns should I have now? As I mentioned, the house is basically very dry (except when I clean the dammed carpets :mad: ). I think most of the mold was unexposed until I ripped up the padding, and I should have done a good job disinfecting within 10 minutes of that. The Big HEPA filter was running in the room and the door was closed as well.
There was a half-open closet full of clothes and some older computer stuff, and fans had run for days drying things out with the door to the main basement open much of that time. But, the mold itself was light and under both the carpet and the padding, and had spread very little even in the same room. FWIW there isn't an air return in that room specifically, and I do have the air cleaner in the system and that separate HEPA. Will this be something to worry about in general, or only if the moisture situation changes somewhere along the line?
The joys of ownership. One big what next.
Charon
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I wouldn't be too worried once you got it all out, cleaned up, and good fresh-air circulated through the area.
make sure the floor under the carpet is thoroughly cleaned and dried before putting anything back down.
even if the carpet is savable, I'd replace the pad. carpet padding is dirt-cheap and other than disposing of it, doesn't add any real work to re-laying the carpet. you'd kick yourself if you had to do this again over a few bucks worth of padding.
also even without a air-return in the room, if their are vents in the room air will circulate toward where-ever the return is. I wouldn't lose any sleep over it, but to be on the safe side I'd change the filter on your central air as soon as the clean-up is done. if the irritation comes back after everything has been cleaned up be sure to keep the ducts in mind when tracking down the source. anything air-born eventually makes it's way through them and they can allow a spot for it to grow unobserved.
on the one hand you say the house is usually dry, so the chances of the mold finding an easy spot to live is very minimal, but since you have allergies you get problems from more normal molds that aren't even in the toxic groups. so just make sure everything is as clean and dry as possible.
I've looked through my materials for mold info that I already have in a digital format. I found some that should help you out.
I have a manual that has a lot of detailed info, recommended clean-up methods for most any contaminated item, as well as protective equipment needed. it has a lot of technical data to bore you (EPA standards and such), but also some stuff you may find useful (homeowners guide and Q&A section). keep in mind that some of the protective gear recommendations are geared toward the most toxic molds in heavy concentrations, so don't let the pics of full protective gear and decontamination air-lock configurations get you too concerned.
I also have product info on mold cleaner/killers, mold inhibiting additives for paint and stains, and the home test kits.
I'd seriously consider the test kits if you have any concern that you may have missed some. the results are available in 48 hours so you can test the carpet and floor below it to make sure you have it all, plus a sample from the ducts would go a long way for some extra 'peace of mind'. also, since you are the only one who knows where the samples come from, you won't have to worry about a unscrupulous clean-up contractor using a positive test result as an extortion tool.
these are in pdf format, and just under 3MB for all of it. just let me know if you're interested and I'll e-mail them over to you.
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Thank's Apathy. I'll clean the filters today (electrostatic type). The carpet is gone, it was cheap anway. I'll probably tile the room and put in an area rug. I think I'm in good shape on the remaining cleanup from some Web sources. I just plan on vacuuming with a HEPA filtered vac, laundering, wiping down and dusting. I will likely follow through with the testing once I get the place cleaned up.
Thanks again,
Charon
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Best thread evar!!!
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Best thread evar!!!
Well, it worked for me. And I appreciate the help.
Charon
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Originally posted by Westy
A dehumidifier would help. A lot.
Mold and mildew tend to have a hard time growing in the absence of moisture.
Less then 45% Moisture to be exact, same with bed bugs and such..
Also keep room temp less then 80 deg. keep it around 65 or 70..
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Next step after cleanup is hardwood flooring or Pergo flooring with an area rug if needed.
Not a single carpet in my house with the exception of a small area rug under the coffee table in the living room.
Gotta love hardwood floors ... easy to clean ... easy to keep clean.
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I'm thinking about pergo (i have to look at the prices) or maybe just vinyl tile and an area rug. This room will be a kids toy/play room (when we have kids) and a spare bedroom. Carpet is nice on the rest of the basement floor because it makes it more comfortable and we spend a lot of time i the basement. May go pergo and area rugs there too when the time comes.
I know carpet and basements usually don't mix, but as I noted earlier the basement is dry to the point that you never get excessive humidity, condensation on pipes or cooling ducts, etc.
Charon
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Originally posted by Charon
Well, it worked for me. And I appreciate the help.
Charon
Hey I'm sincere! It is such a relief from this Bushkerry crap...
An I've learned a couple of things ;) :aok
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Originally posted by Charon
I'm thinking about pergo (i have to look at the prices) or maybe just vinyl tile and an area rug. This room will be a kids toy/play room (when we have kids) and a spare bedroom. Carpet is nice on the rest of the basement floor because it makes it more comfortable and we spend a lot of time i the basement. May go pergo and area rugs there too when the time comes.
I know carpet and basements usually don't mix, but as I noted earlier the basement is dry to the point that you never get excessive humidity, condensation on pipes or cooling ducts, etc.
Charon
if you want to be extra careful you could put a light coat of paint w/the anti-mold additives as a barrier, though it sounds like just being a little more careful when cleaning the carpets should cover you for the normal situations.