Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: Urchin on August 27, 2004, 03:09:13 PM
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I've been having some trouble killing with this gun since Ah2 came out. It definately seems to me that it no longer has the hitting power it had in Ah1. Considering how difficult the weapon is to hit with to begin with, I think it really needs to be looked at.
I've got a film of me landing a 30mm on a Spits nose. It resulted in an oil leak. If anyone would like to host the film let me know, I'd like to put it up.
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I'd offer, but I can only do images with the service I use.
Ask DoKGonZo, he hosted Mitsu's new sound pack.
If you just want HiTech to look at it, email it to him.
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Actually, I just looked at the film a few times in slo-mo (which is cool). I hit at least 2 30mm. One to the nose, which actually killed the engine, and one to the wing, that did nothing. I'm gonna try to get it hosted as soon as Morph shows up on IM.. he never puts up away messages even when he is away.
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i've had that in AHI urch with 40mm on PT and 37mm Osty gun.
Hit things square on nose and they just smoke.
And urch you can upload films to http://www.onpoi.net/ah
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At least you can hit! I took a G10 up against a p47 (was silver, so I suspect it was a -D), and we flew around each other for about 10 minutes fighting, and I could NOT hit the little sod worth crap. Even when he was stalled out high over me and I had a PERFECT shot on him I could NOT hit him with 30mm (and this all at ranges around 200-400), no matter what. It wasn't until I sprayed 100 rounds literally at him point blank that I finally knocked a wing off. (HTH arena, lots of ammo)
The 30mm definitely is... um... "odd" in not being able to hit squat anymore.
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I dont think it's much different in being able to hit except for the new smaller hit zones on the 3D models. As for hit power I am under the impression that it may be somewhat weaker.
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Ok, uploaded the film .. I cant post a link, but Jb73 did.
First hit is clearly a 30mm, after that I fired MGs too by accident, but there is at least one more 30mm hit to the right wing.
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Fix the link plese.
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http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/730_1093640490_30mmoilleak.ahf
there is his link
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These are pics taken from the film.
Urchin fires first only 30mm cannon (this can be read from the ammo counter also). One cannon hit in the Spits' nose. Spit engine quits immediately, but the plane does not explode or disintegrate.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v424/timppa/30mm_0.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v424/timppa/30mm_1.jpg)
Urchin now fires also his MG's. Two hits to Spits right wing. These are very likely only MG hits.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v424/timppa/30mm_3.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v424/timppa/30mm_2.jpg)
Urchin's plane seems to be intact when the planes pass by, no hit sprites so far.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v424/timppa/30mm_5.jpg)
Urchin loses suddenly his both horizontal stabilizers. Down he goes !!!
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v424/timppa/30mm_6.jpg)
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send the file to my email ill post it up as long as its not more then 10MB
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Originally posted by Krusty
At least you can hit! I took a G10 up against a p47 (was silver, so I suspect it was a -D), and we flew around each other for about 10 minutes fighting, and I could NOT hit the little sod worth crap. Even when he was stalled out high over me and I had a PERFECT shot on him I could NOT hit him with 30mm (and this all at ranges around 200-400), no matter what. It wasn't until I sprayed 100 rounds literally at him point blank that I finally knocked a wing off. (HTH arena, lots of ammo)
The 30mm definitely is... um... "odd" in not being able to hit squat anymore.
maybe some of the lethality settings in that arena was altered.
i dunno, dont remember what settings are available
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Thx for making the pictures Tim. I never have been any good at that. The reason I think at least one of the hits to the wing was a 30mm is that if you look at the film from inside my plane, you can see one of the tracers from the cannon go right to it. At least it appears that way to me, that tracer starts off lower than the ones coming from the MGs.
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Urchin, are you more lucky with the 20mm? I used both with 109G6 and G10, I need to score multiple flashes to have some damage, usualy non critical.
For those of you still believing in Peter Pan, dont come here with the V-Sync - rubber bullet mithology.
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I have switched to the 20mm loadout for the 109, I don't typically use the 30mm anymore. It just isnt reliable enough for me, I get better results shooting the MG and 20mm cannon rather than just the 30mm cannon.
By the way, it isn't Vsync.. I have Vsync set to always on.
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krusty- 200-400 yards is too far for the 30mm, you really need to get below the 200 mark.
from my experience a single 30mm will kill. only time he doesnt kill a fighter in 1 shot is when he hits the engine. (which sounds reasonable), 30mm takes alot of patience and can be very frustrating, especially in deflection shots.
urchin, tracers are not to be trusted, not every round that goes out is a tracer, and you cant really call which round is which.
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So far in AH2 the best 30mm kill I had was 800 yards, but 200-400 is reasonable.
Urchin you know it was a mistake to fire the 13mm with the 30mm - because of that I cant say the video proves anything. And thats a shame cuz I also think the 30mm isn't quite correct in hit power.
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Got film of another engne kill. Apparently I'm getting lucky (or unlucky, since I'm trying to get a hit on someone and not get an engine kill). I'm filming all my 30mm sorties, I'm sure I'll get what I'm looking for shortly.
Yea, I know I screwed up hitting the MGs, finger slipped tho, not much I could do about it.
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Do the test I did. Stopped at runaway in a 109G10 and then firing round by round with max zoom. Look at the random dispersion applied as soon as you shot the round and stop wondering why you miss every shot.
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yes Urchin, succumb to the dark side of pessimism! It's no use resisting!
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Sorry to deviate ,but I gotta know how Timrus takes a pic from the film?
Tim how do u take a pic from the film?
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IMHO 30mm's are a waste of time. Too few rounds and velocity (if they're modelled correctly) is low...WAY low. We're talking blackpowder rifle cartridge velocities here; around 1800 fps. As a comparison, the .50 cal runs in the 2800-2900 range as does the American .30 cals. When I have had success with the 30mm, it's been at very close range. Personally, i can find no use for it unless of course I'm flying one of the jets.
230G
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I'll take a 109 armed with a 30mm in the engine and you take one armed with a 50cal engine gun instead. Lets go hunt bombers or play with angry P47s.. OK? :)
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Originally posted by airbumba
Tim how do u take a pic from the film?
1. Open film viewer and some graphics editing program ( I use Microsoft Photo Editor).
2. You can run the film in slow motion and even freeze it, pan , rotate, jump into other plane etc. When you have the frame you want, press alt-print scrn. It copies the image of the active window into the clipboard.
3. In photo editor: Edit-Paste pic from clipboard, then you can select the portion of the pic that you want to show. Save that as new picture.
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
So far in AH2 the best 30mm kill I had was 800 yards, but 200-400 is reasonable.
I flew the G-10 a lot for a few months, improved my gunnery no end. But I only managed to hit anything at 800 in AH1 with 0.50's at a target flying straight and level. The same with the 30mm in AH2? Never. How do you do it?
Noticed that convergence settings are a lot more important now (at least so it seems to me). Not much problems adapting but I tend to open fire at much closer ranges. Had two one ping kills with the 30mm so far, including a crossing shot point blank on a P-47. Will have to try it a bit more to get a feel for it again.
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It might've been V-sync after all, I dunno. Been flying the G-6,G-10, and 262.. so far every ping has resulted in a dead engine or a dead plane. I changed Vsync from (I think) default on to always on.
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Why does the 30mm have such a large dispersion pattern? AFAIK it should be rather small due to low muzzle velocity and heavy grenade and low ROF.
A gun with high ROF, high muzzle velocity and light bullet/grenade should have a rather large dispersion pattern?
Maybe Mr. Williams could confirm this?
I used to like the 30mm in AH1 but in AH2 I feels very inaccurate.
-C+
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Maybe the low velocity doesn't allow for a high rate of spin when fired. Maybe less twist in barrell.?
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Historically pilots complained of the bad trajectory of heavy cannon rounds (30mm +). They never complained of inaccuracy. So our 30mm drops like a stone, fine. But it sprays out in a random cone about 3-4 times the size of a 20mm dispersion (not a measurement, just an estimate).
I think that's just adding insult to injury, if it's true.
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Originally posted by Krusty
But it sprays out in a random cone about 3-4 times the size of a 20mm dispersion (not a measurement, just an estimate).
I far as I tested, the random cone seems similar to 20mm, in any case, IMO there is not explanation for that dispersion firing round by round with the aircraft stopped.
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Why does the 30mm have such a large dispersion pattern?
Being a handloading/rifle shooting nut, I can tell you that some cartridges are inherently more accurate than others. The .50 cal. Browning is one of the best; espaecially in shoulder fired firearms. Ditto for the 6.5x55mm Swede. The .222 Remington, the .22 & 6mm PPC. I know this both from experience and from reading and talking at length to other shooters.
From what I've read, the 20mm Hispano is an "accurate" round, while the Luftwaffe cannon's were inaccurate. I know I have a terrible time hitting with the Luftwaffe planes compared to the British planes.
Also, as someone has already mentioned, the 30mm's with their low velocity have a much more arched trajectory than their counterparts. If you don't believe it, just use the ".target" (is that right?) function and compare the 30mm to others at various ranges.
230G
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Simple. Just hold your fire until the target is this...
<---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------->
... big and the ACME automatic hand grenade dispenser should work just fine.
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"Maybe the low velocity doesn't allow for a high rate of spin when fired. Maybe less twist in barrell.?"
The rifling in the barrel is designed so that it gives the optimum rotation to the grenade or bullet with a certain muzzle velocity. If the bullet is slower for some reason it gets inaccurate as it starts its flight with too slow rotation and if the bullet is very much too fast for the rifling it probably may "cut through" damaging eventually the barrel and the bullet. If a grenade has a sealant ring around it the situation may be worse if the ring gets separated from the grenade because of too fast velocity. The ring gets stuck in the rifling causing an explosion when next round is fired, or the ring flies out of the barel after separated with the grenade thus causing a very low velocity shot.
That is why there is not much variation allowed in muzzle velocity even for different kinds of grenades. So for a lighter grenade the rotation is not necessarily enough causing it to diverge from its flight path is some stage of its flight, while the for the other type of grenade the rotation may be just right giving it excellent accuracy through its effective flight path.
That is IF I remember correctly...
-C+
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Rifling on Mk108
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/71_1085411681_30.jpg)
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thats a greatr picture :)
Me262?
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yup
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/71_1085411705_spreadeagled.jpg)
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Urchin, the only thing i can possibly think what might have happened is that your tail section hit the collision "bubble". As far as the 30mm hit to the nose, It did trash the engine. Now, the 30mm hits to the wing area shouldve blown the wing OFF. I've got footage of 109s attacking a SPit from dead 6 position and SPit takes several 30mm hits to tail section and wing root. You see half the tail simply disappear and sevear damage to the wing root and trailing edge....
Ive taken down multi engine planes with just two hits from the 30mm but then had to use up almost every round to bring down some fighters. I know they were 30mm hits because that was the only weapon firing....So who knows:confused:
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hit an f6f with osty today, in the nose - only gave him oil leak. It didnt even kill engine.
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The rifling in the barrel is designed so that it gives the optimum rotation to the grenade or bullet with a certain muzzle velocity. If the bullet is slower for some reason it gets inaccurate as it starts its flight with too slow rotation and if the bullet is very much too fast for the rifling it probably may "cut through" damaging eventually the barrel and the bullet.
Mmm....not exactly. Rifling is rated in turns per inch. The optimum amount of rifling required to stablize a bullet is determined by a ratio of the bullet diameter to the weight (hence length) of the bullet. For example, a .22 Long Rifle, 40 gr. bullet fired from a 6" handgun barrel develops a velocity in the 1000 fps range. This bullet requires a twist of about 1 turn in 14"-16". A large volume .22 caliber rifle firing a 40 gr. bullet at 4000 fps will require the same amount of twist to stabilize the bullet. In short, the rotation is the same regardless of the beginning velocity.
I own .35 caliber pistols (.357 Magnums, 38 Specials) and a .35 caliber rifle, and their twist is almost identical even though the rifle fires the bullets, in some cases, twice as fast as the handguns.
I've fired rifles that didn't have fast enough twist for the bullet loaded and they're wildly inaccurate. On the other hand, I've fired rifles with more twist than necessary for a given bullet and the bullets do just fine. The only exception is that in some cases, bullets fired at very high velocity through a barrel with fast twist will disintegrate due to high rotational forces.
Unless you're firing bullets made of metal that is nearly as hard as the barrel, you'll have to fire many, many rounds to damage the barrel.
Maybe the Germans had an incorrect rate of twist in their MK108 barrels.
FWIW
I hope this little lesson in ballistics wasn't TOO boring.
230G
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The outstanding performer is clearly the German 30 mm MK 108, which achieves ten times the destructiveness of the .50 M2 for only twice the weight. It makes a particularly interesting comparison with the MK 103, which fired the same M-Geschoss projectiles. The MK 103 gains an advantage because of its higher velocity, but loses most of it due to its lower rate of fire, then is finally eclipsed in efficiency because of its much greater weight. No surprise that the Luftwaffe considered the MK 108 their premier air-fighting gun despite its low muzzle velocity. The Me 262 jet fighter, with four of these guns clustered in the nose, completely outclassed the firepower of every other WW2 fighter.
http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk/WW2guneffect.htm
Mk 108 comes in first in overall effectiveness.
Let's assume that, with the benefit of hindsight, we could specify the ideal gun armament for a Second World War fighter plane. What might it look like?
There are no close matches with our "ideal" gun - there were very few 30mm cannon - but the closest actual match was the IJA's Browning-type Ho-155, which fired at 450-600 rpm and weighed in at 60 kg. The IJN's Oerlikon-pattern Type 2 weighed 42 kg, although it only fired at 400 rpm. The short-barrelled German MK 108 weighed 60 kg and fired at 600 rpm. On balance, a target of 60-70 kg looks entirely achievable.
http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk/ideal.htm
And Number 2 for the idea fighter armament of WWII.
Crumpp
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I think Urchin is correct. Last night in the CT in a G6 while firing on a Yak at D200- I observed several hit sprites but no damage, I circled and attacked again and finally after many hits shot it down. I landed reupped and shot all the 13mm so I only had the 30mm with ammo and went hunting. I shot down a P40 with 4 pings and an La-5 with 3 pings. I also had multiple hits maybe as many as 10 on a Yak before running out of ammo and RTB'n I received an assist while on final for the Yak. You guys may want to look at the damage model on the tater guns. Maybe the shots are ricochetting off?
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Storch if you got that on film please send in to htc as proof of bug of some sort. I know for a fact 20mm will kill in 2-3 hits in the right place, but to need 3 30mm? 5 30mm? That's wrong.
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Originally posted by Krusty
I know for a fact 20mm will kill in 2-3 hits in the right place
Hispanos, may be. I need LOTS of 20mm flashes to do any visible damage with 151/20s.
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I've noticed the same thing, of 50 or so kills in AH2 beta and now with the 30mm, probably 15 to 20% have survived a single ping, which only happened once in AH1 since beta, at least to me.
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still depends on the plane and point of impact somewhat. I remember several occasions in AH1 where I took a 30mm hit from a Me262 and survived in a p47-d11 or F4U-1. Also even took some 37mm ostwind hits in the p47 and lived to tell about it. Typically losing a wingtip or dead engine. However if hit in the tail it was always a death
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Do a test like Nath and I did a long time ago to test 30mm effectiveness. We went to the DA, and one of us took a bomber and the other a 30mm-armed plane. We would both establish a constant speed and the fighter would drop to a constant range behind the bomber and fire one 30mm round at a time. We then recorded the number of hits it took to bring down everything from B-26s to Lancasters to TBMs. We then tested the effectiveness of various other armaments from other planes (37mm, 40mm, etc).
We found that in AH1 at least, the 30mm seemed to kill bombers (i.e. remove enough critical components to render it incapable of flight) with as many rounds as historical documents indicated, on average, it should take. Thus the killing power seemed accurate.
Try that in AH2 and see if it takes some abnormally large number of 30mm rounds to bring down stuff in a more or less controlled environment.
-- Todd/Leviathn
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Yesteday flew 262 and pinged one LA5 on his engine cowl, saw hit very well, beceuse range was less than 200 yrds. ...
He lost his oil but nothing else...
Another P38 was killed easily with 7 hits thought, rear assembly fell off...
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Here's what I see. In a deflection shot 1 ping in the wing root is all it takes from the 6, 3 pings will take out a tail assembly or deasses the target. HTC has a penetration issue, and not just at home either. :D
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I think this has to do with how the DM system works, rather than power of the cannon itself.
The vast majority of kills we score in AH is associated with structural damage. Some may prefer HOs more than the orthodox style of shooting from behind ;)... but usually we latch behind a target and shoot him from his 6.
Now, for this general purpose the 30mm cannon is truly a one-ping wonder.
When enough damage is registered that certain part will be destroyed. Usually, these parts are directly associated with the plane's structure - wings, tail section, stabilizers.. etc etc. A hit to these parts will immediately drop that plane from the sky. One ping from the 30mm, will kill the enemy plane if it hits a structure-related area.
However, there are other damageable areas in AH. One major areas is the cockpit , the other is the fuel tanks. The third area, which takes up the entire frontal area of the plane, is the engine block.
Hits to the cockpit result wounds to a pilot. A powerful weapon like the 30mm results in a kill usually.
Nobody is sure how the fuel tanks work, but at least from what we can perceive.. - hits to the fuel tanks will cause a leak, or ignite a fire. Or, if the damage is critical and spontaneous enough, it will explode the plane - usually when it hits a large fuel tank inside the main fuselage.
Hits to the wing tanks usually cause the wing to fall off before receiving enough damage to explode it ( <- this is my theory. I've never actually seen an AH plane explode from damage to the wing fuel tanks. )
However, my guess is, that the engine block has no damage equivalent that is powerful enough to destroy the plane entirely - unlike pilot deaths or fuel explosion/ignition.
For a quick comparison, engine blocks of the planes in IL2/FB are very critical areas. Not only does it leak or seize up, but it also ignites in flames, blows up. Also, some types of powerful damage to the frontal area will cause the destruction of the entire block, causing the engine to fall off from the plane.
Compared to that, I don't think I've seen AH engines ever catch fire. The only fires I've seen are those extending from the rear fuselage(probably meaning flames at rear fuel tanks). Nor have I ever seen an AH engine explode.
I could be wrong - but at least my guess is that hits to the frontal of area of the plane results in only two types of damages to the plane - engine seizure and/or oil leak. I don't think there's a damage type powerful enough to destroy the whole plane, when shots are landed to the engine area.
Perhaps that's why 30mm shots landed at the frontal areas of various planes, only causes fuel leaks or engine stoppage. Come to think of it, I've never exploded an enemy plane in a HO when shots land on his engine block. Pilot kills that blow up the plane, I've seen many times.. but shots landed on the engine part never just blows it up.
ps) Perhaps that is also the reason why there are so many HO collisions in AH....! If you don't blow the enemy up with a pilot kill, or snap his wing off... shots landed to the engine block will only stop his engine - thus, he still travels towards you.... and will ultimatley collide, despite the numbers of shots you've landed on him.
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Very interesting read guys...
I have had a few issues with cannons as such, but more in the 40mm area from a PT boat. In all accounts, this is an awesome weapon, but it does not seem to have the power is should have. I "fly" the PT a fair bit due to my incompetence in a fighter, and use the 40mm as the ranging weapon on incoming bombers etc when screening a carrier. I had landed 3 and four hits on smallish bomber / attack AC like TBMs and A20s without knocking them down, this seems very unlikely to me.
I have tried the 190 with 30mm onboard, it is very effective for killing GVs at 600-800 range no problem. I doubt I could hit a London Bus doing 100mph straight and level in the air with it though. I prefer the 20mm.
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A Couple of nights ago I was again flying G6 with 30mm and on the same flight shot down a Spit and F4U, both by hitting them in the wing root, and the wing coming off (1 or 2 hits). To me it seemed like they were in perfectly good condition, not missing parts or leaking anything, but was only granted assists?!?!?!
I don't understand how this damage model and kill system works...
-C+
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Ran some tests last night with Urchin in the DA. With single shots fired into the fuselage of Lancasters and then B-17s, the killing power of the 30mm Mk108 seems identical to AH1. It took no more shots on average to bring down the buffs than it did in AH1 (~4 for a B-17, ~7 for a Lanc).
Just an FYI.
-- Todd/Leviathn
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Originally posted by Dead Man Flying
Ran some tests last night with Urchin in the DA. With single shots fired into the fuselage of Lancasters and then B-17s, the killing power of the 30mm Mk108 seems identical to AH1. It took no more shots on average to bring down the buffs than it did in AH1 (~4 for a B-17, ~7 for a Lanc).
Just an FYI.
-- Todd/Leviathn
Thanks Urchin and Levi