Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: KBall on August 28, 2004, 02:48:21 AM
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http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,130325,00.html
— Wasn't wounded by hostile fire.
— Wasn't even under fire by the enemy.
— "Nicked" himself with a grenade launcher and "requested a Purple Heart" afterward.
If Schachte's version is accurate, Kerry would not have been eligible for the award, the first of the three Purple Hearts he received.>
I think Kerry better distance himself from Vietnam very quickly. His campaign running on his military service is creating quite a large hole to climb out of. That hole is getting deeper by the day.
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Seems to be as many stories as there are tellers.
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Originally posted by KBall
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,130325,00.html
— Wasn't wounded by hostile fire.
He believes so, but doesn't know for sure. Hard to hear enemy fire when your own weapons are going off.
Originally posted by KBall
— Wasn't even under fire by the enemy.
How can he be so sure?
Originally posted by KBall
— "Nicked" himself with a grenade launcher and "requested a Purple Heart" afterward.
He makes an assumption about the schrapnel. Still not proven as to the source of the schrapnel. Kerry as can any individual in a hostile action can request all the awards they want. It takes another, usually senior officer to actually send a recommendation.
Originally posted by KBall
If Schachte's version is accurate, Kerry would not have been eligible for the award, the first of the three Purple Hearts he received.>
If Schachte's version is accurate as to Kerry getting hit by the schrapnel from ricochet from his own round, Kerry still qualifies for the award. No where does the qualifications of the Purple Heart exclude self-inflicted (read that as not on purpose) wounds when involved in a hostile action. IIRC.
Originally posted by KBall
I think Kerry better distance himself from Vietnam very quickly. His campaign running on his military service is creating quite a large hole to climb out of. That hole is getting deeper by the day.
Strategically, it makes sense for a Democrat to bring his military service to the forefront as the Republicans have generally received the most support the average pro-military voter.
Kerry has nothing to be ashamed of as to his wartime combat service, no need to hide it.
It's too bad that Kerry doesn't seem to have a stellar record as a Senator. It just seems ordinary, nothing special. He promises a lot but I wonder how much his programs will cost and how they will actually be funded. Main difference is which party cares about having a deficit.
If he wins, it'll be more a vote against Bush, rather than a vote for Kerry (or so it seems).
For those that supported Bush the last election, what qualifications did he possess? What were his specific stands on the various issues? What were his plans to tackle those issues?
Welcome to politics folks! The Republicans and Democrats are closer than you think ;)
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subaru... Bush got a lot done as a governor and was well liked by both parties. It seems that he has gotten a lot done as president and pretty much kept his promises.
kerrie will pay for all his programs and government jobs and more tax cuts for the poor (do the poor pay taxes?) and the middle class by....... taxing the rich..
wonder what their rate will be to pay for all this crap? How we gonna pay for all his socialist programs years from now when they grow even bigger... as is the wont of government programs...
lazs
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The worst is yet to come for the Winter Soldier.
Cod, I bet his campaign is tired of talking about VN.
" 'Reporting for Doody!' who the heck told me to say that? He's FIRED!"
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Originally posted by lazs2
subaru... Bush got a lot done as a governor
He did?
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subaru... Bush got a lot done as a governor and was well liked by both parties. It seems that he has gotten a lot done as president and pretty much kept his promises.
Please enlighten us!!!
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Bush said Kerry's service was honorable and should'nt be attacked. I thought it was unamerican to disagree with Dubya.
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Wheres Schachte's after action reports for that day. Personally I think all these guys coming out and speaking 35 years later to slander Kerrys record are total liers.
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If one of my former shipmates runs for office as a republican...
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I guess it's perfectly normal to receive 3 purple hearts and not miss a day of duty.
Doesn't that bother any of you Kerry freaks? And that's just the tip of the iceburg for this liar. Kerry is a slug.
He says he's in Cambodia on in 1968, then someone calls him on it so he changes his story...now it was a "secrete" mission. What a joker.
He says he doesn't own an SUV...his "family does. He says he's "the man" for making America safe, yet missed every intelligence briefing in the entire year after 911 and 76 % of all public meetings overall.
He rarely does his job in the Senate. He sat for 20 years in the Senate and what has he done?
He chastised Bush for not acting for 7 minutes after the second plane hit the WTC, yet admitted he sat "unable to think" for 45 minutes after the second plane hit, until he was told to evacuate the building.
He says he witnessed and participated in war crimes in Vietnam, yet only decided to report them once he was before the Senate reading a speach he did not write on the subject AFTER he had long since left Vietnam.
He says that "earth day" is not something you practice one day a year, "it's a lifestyle" while he himself heats and cools 5 mansions, fly around with 2 private jets and tools around in a 100 foot yatch. He probably is responible for more energy use than 1000's of normal Americans combined.
Kerry has never decided to pay a voluntary increase in state income tax in his home state, yet says the the wealthy are not paying their fair share of taxes.
I could go on all day. The guy is a pathetic joke and will lose in a landslide NO DOUBT about it. Wait and see.
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Kerry is VOSS
if you compare the two you will see their score whoring and self preocupation is identical.
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You simply need top bring up the issue of economics again. Where is the US heading in 15-20 years. Sort of makes the swift boats issue seem so unimportant when your kids will be paying for your mistakes.
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Originally posted by MrCoffee
You simply need top bring up the issue of economics again. Where is the US heading in 15-20 years. Sort of makes the swift boats issue seem so unimportant when your kids will be paying for your mistakes.
I agree, it would be a huge mistake to elect Kerry. I'm not even slightly concerned that Kerry could be elected though, because it's not going to even be close.
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Originally posted by lazs2
subaru... Bush got a lot done as a governor and was well liked by both parties. It seems that he has gotten a lot done as president and pretty much kept his promises.
What specifically did he accomplish as a governor of Texas? Try not to be vague.
I was talking only on his record and actions as Governor of Texas - "For those that supported Bush the last election, what qualifications did he possess? What were his specific stands on the various issues? What were his plans to tackle those issues?"
Originally posted by lazs2
kerrie will pay for all his programs and government jobs and more tax cuts for the poor (do the poor pay taxes?) and the middle class by....... taxing the rich..
wonder what their rate will be to pay for all this crap? How we gonna pay for all his socialist programs years from now when they grow even bigger... as is the wont of government programs...
lazs
Does an astronomical deficit bother you?
The rich should be exempt from paying taxes?
What's a fair tax rate?
Let's start with the poor and work our way up.
What programs are necessary for us as a nation to succeed? Which programs should we get rid of?
Who's gonna pay for them? Right now we have a huge deficit spending by the Republicans that is out of control. It's not working. Now if that doesn't bother you, why not eliminate taxes all together?
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Originally posted by Citabria
Kerry is VOSS
if you compare the two you will see their score whoring and self preocupation is identical.
wow there;s a strech calling kerry and Voss same person. Voss will now say he's under cover and he really is kerry...........
maybe he can sell kerry on his flight sim?
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Originally posted by NUKE
I agree, it would be a huge mistake to elect Kerry. I'm not even slightly concerned that Kerry could be elected though, because it's not going to even be close.
LOL, a 1.2 billion dollar a day accruing deficit is somewhat acceptable? We're going to reach a point where even taxes won't be able to bail us out.
Care to put a wager on the election outcome?
If Kerry wins, you have to put in your sig:
"Clinton was the Best President...EVAR! (I lost a bet)"
If Bush wins reelection (most likely he will), I'll put in my sig:
"Bush is the Best President...EVAR! (I lost a bet)"
Now neither one was the best, but this will add fun and excitement to the election, along with some good natured ribbing. :D
So sir, you man enough to live with the loss? :D Place your bet!
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Originally posted by rod367th
wow there;s a strech calling kerry and Voss same person. Voss will now say he's under cover and he really is kerry...........
maybe he can sell kerry on his flight sim?
they are both scum
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quote (http://www.boston.com/news/globe/editorial_opinion/oped/articles/2004/08/20/kerry_comrades_have_credibility_on_their_side/)
But to see a prime example of the lengths O'Neill and his allies resort to in their effort to discredit Kerry, take the claims "Unfit for Command" makes about Kerry's first Purple Heart. Kerry received that decoration for a small shrapnel wound to the arm incurred on the night of Dec. 2, 1968, when he was patrolling in a skimmer -- a craft akin to a Boston Whaler -- in a free-fire zone, looking for Viet Cong guerrillas.
Yes, there have been questions about whether the wound Kerry suffered that night really merited a Purple Heart, though those decorations were handed out rather liberally. But rather than quoting the two men known to have accompanied Kerry on that mission, "Unfit for Command" asserts a third person was along. William Schachte, later a rear admiral, "was also on the skimmer," the book claims.
It offers this account: "After Kerry's M-16 jammed, Kerry picked up an M-79 grenade launcher and fired a grenade too close, causing a tiny piece of shrapnel . . . to barely stick in his arm. Schachte berated Kerry for almost putting someone's eye out." Schachte could not be reached for comment. But in a brief interview yesterday, O'Neill asserted that Schachte had told him, as well as other military men, that he had been on the skimmer.
"I spoke to Admiral Schachte," O'Neill said. "He places himself on the skimmer." O'Neill also hinted that Schachte will soon address the issue himself. So what do William Zaladonis and Patrick Runyon, the two men who were on the skimmer with Kerry at the time, say?
"Myself, Pat Runyon, and John Kerry," says Zaladonis, the engineman on Kerry's first swift boat, "we were the only ones in the skimmer."
"There definitely was not a fourth," says Runyon. Though the two assume they took hostile fire, both men acknowledge they aren't completely certain. But they also firmly reject the claim that Kerry somehow wounded himself by using an M-79 grenade launcher.
"I am reasonably sure we didn't have an M-79," Zaladonis said. "I didn't see one. I don't remember it."
Runyon says the only weapons the trio had were an M-60 machine gun, two M-16 combat rifles, and, possibly, a .45 caliber pistol. Is he 100 percent sure there wasn't an M-79 grenade launcher in the boat?
"I wouldn't say 100 percent, but I know 100 percent certain that we didn't shoot them," replies Runyon. He does remember Kerry having trouble with his M-16. "His gun jammed or he ran out of ammunition -- I don't know which -- but he bent down to pick up the other M-16," he says.
Zaladonis, who was manning the machine gun, recalls Kerry telling him to redirect his fire to another area. "If we got return fire, I am not sure," he said. But he adds that there's one thing he does know: "I know that John got hurt." And not by shrapnel from a grenade launcher.
This incident crystallizes the epistemological issue at play in the larger controversy: Whom does it make sense to believe, the men who served and fought in close company with Kerry and who back his Navy-certified record? Or the veterans who didn't actually serve under Kerry and who, admittedly angry over his subsequent antiwar activities, are now trying to discredit him? To ask that question is to answer it.
And in this case, until there is clear and compelling evidence to the contrary, any fair-minded person has to credit the account offered by Zaladonis and Runyon.
so the man who wasn't there, and didn't report what he says he saw at the time, comes up with a story that conflicts the testimony of 3 eye witnesses (who everyone agrees were actually there) and the official navy record, his testimony is very self serving and will help sell his book, it also (if believed) discredits the word of a man accusing servicemen of war crimes.
the man has every reason to lie, and no real credibility as far as any access to what really happened. combine that with the fact that Kerry would still have been eligible for his purple heart had he been injured by friendly fire, and you pretty much have a non-issue.
I just can't figure why this is even an issue. I suppose that for those who keep trying to bring it up it's the lesser of evils. if you are trying to support Bush you aren't going to gain any ground by bringing up how he's ran the country, or his stellar intellect, talking about the facts of Kerry's war record vs. Bush's having daddy buy him into the guard (whether or not he actually showed up also makes that a touchy issue). I guess that makes sense when you have no points that help your candidate, talk about nothing.
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Originally posted by SaburoS
LOL, a 1.2 billion dollar a day accruing deficit is somewhat acceptable? We're going to reach a point where even taxes won't be able to bail us out.
Care to put a wager on the election outcome?
If Kerry wins, you have to put in your sig:
"Clinton was the Best President...EVAR! (I lost a bet)"
If Bush wins reelection (most likely he will), I'll put in my sig:
"Bush is the Best President...EVAR! (I lost a bet)"
Now neither one was the best, but this will add fun and excitement to the election, along with some good natured ribbing. :D
So sir, you man enough to live with the loss? :D Place your bet!
Hehe, okay!
If Kerry wins I'll also paint "President Kerry is the Best!" on the Stuka model you sent me :) ( actually, no ... I couldn't do that to that kit)
I just do not get what people can see in Kerry given all of his dusgusting traits
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I just do not get what people can see in Kerry given all of his dusgusting traits
Just like we can't see what you all like about Bush. Still don't see anybody talking about what Bush has done for the country. The only thing I have seen is "he's made the country safer", and I ask how? Last time I checked Sep. 11 happened on his watch and not a single high ranking official was ever fired for all the failures. Don't get me wrong I voted for Bush in 2000 and I don't think I have ever voted anything other than republican, but at least I can admit to my mistakes. Open your eyes and see what's going on around you sometime.
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What's a fair tax rate?
Well, how about the same tax rate for everyone? what could be more fair than that?
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Last time I checked Sep. 11 happened on his watch
Actually only a small percentage of the terrosit attack was on Bush's watch. Most of the the planning, training, and organizing happened during the previous administration.
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So exactly how odd is this?
http://www.suntimes.com/output/elect/cst-nws-lips28.html
Former Navy Secretary John Lehman has no idea where a Silver Star citation displayed on Democratic presidential nominee John Kerry's campaign Web site came from, he said Friday. The citation appears over Lehman's signature.
"It is a total mystery to me. I never saw it. I never signed it. I never approved it. And the additional language it contains was not written by me," he said.
The additional language varied from the two previous citations, signed first by Adm. Elmo Zumwalt and then Adm. John Hyland, which themselves differ. The new material added in the Lehman citation reads in part: "By his brave actions, bold initiative, and unwavering devotion to duty, Lieutenant (jg) Kerry reflected great credit upon himself...."
Asked how the citation could have been executed over his signature without his knowledge, Lehman said: "I have no idea. I can only imagine they were signed by an autopen." The autopen is a device often used in the routine execution of executive documents in government.
Kerry senior adviser Michael Meehan could not be reached for comment on Kerry's records.
Kerry = teh loser
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But Hortlund, Kerry is a war hero gaddammit!
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Originally posted by NUKE
Hehe, okay!
If Kerry wins I'll also paint "President Kerry is the Best!" on the Stuka model you sent me :) ( actually, no ... I couldn't do that to that kit)
I just do not get what people can see in Kerry given all of his dusgusting traits
LOL, don't you DARE do that to that model!!! :D
edit....
Okay bet is on (gulp). :D
Agree that we have to keep our sigs for the whole term? No switching BBS ID's either.
Sound fair?
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What's a fair tax rate?
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Well, how about the same tax rate for everyone? what could be more fair than that?
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Originally posted by parker00
Just like we can't see what you all like about Bush. Still don't see anybody talking about what Bush has done for the country. The only thing I have seen is "he's made the country safer", and I ask how? Last time I checked Sep. 11 happened on his watch and not a single high ranking official was ever fired for all the failures. Don't get me wrong I voted for Bush in 2000 and I don't think I have ever voted anything other than republican, but at least I can admit to my mistakes. Open your eyes and see what's going on around you sometime.
Oh my goodness, blaming Bush for 9/11??!!
Guess what, had Gore been in office that same exact attack would have taken place! Not having the history of a similar attack, we just weren't ready and prepared from the President on down.
Pick any person you wish as president on 9/11 and tell me that the attack wouldn't have taken place.
Before 9/11, the American public just wouldn't accept the restrictions we now find ourselves in post 9/11.
In short, we were caught with our pants down.
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Originally posted by Steve
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What's a fair tax rate?
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Well, how about the same tax rate for everyone? what could be more fair than that?
Sure, that includes closing loopholes and gray areas as well. Everyone pay 30% sound fair?
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Booooosh are teh DeVil!!
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Sure, that includes closing loopholes and gray areas as well. Everyone pay 30% sound fair?
sure does!! I'm all for it!
Now if we could get the 78% of the population of U.S. taxpayers, the ones that pay less that 30% to agree, we'd have some equity.
If everyone was paying the same rate, there'd be no need for what you are calling "Gray areas and loopholes".
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Oh my goodness, blaming Bush for 9/11??!!
I never blamed Bush for 9/11, all I am saying is someone should of been held accountable. He should of stepped up and said "you screwed up and I need someone in this job who won't". I'm sorry if you don't see it that way, but the president takes over on day 1, it's his responsibility from then on. Yes I know he can't know everything in every erea, but when you bring the past back like Rumsfield and Chenney then someone should of known something.
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Originally posted by parker00
I never blamed Bush for 9/11, all I am saying is someone should of been held accountable. He should of stepped up and said "you screwed up and I need someone in this job who won't". I'm sorry if you don't see it that way, but the president takes over on day 1, it's his responsibility from then on. Yes I know he can't know everything in every erea, but when you bring the past back like Rumsfield and Chenney then someone should of known something.
Okay, just misread what you were saying.
Thing is, how do we blame someone in this case? There's no precident to go by. My point is that of the hundreds if not thousands of "threats" how do you act on them? How do you pick and choose? Finances to investigate every threat?
Hindsight's 20/20, who do you hold accountable for the failures that lead up to 9/11?
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Originally posted by Steve
sure does!! I'm all for it!
Now if we could get the 78% of the population of U.S. taxpayers, the ones that pay less that 30% to agree, we'd have some equity.
If everyone was paying the same rate, there'd be no need for what you are calling "Gray areas and loopholes".
I wonder what the real rate would have to be if everyone paid the same percentage, including buisnesses? No loopholes, no writeoffs. Social Security funds get returned. No more of the government taking that fund to pay for something else.
What programs should we give up, which do we keep?
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Flat tax plus sales tax on non-essential items (no tax on food, medicine, etc.)
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Originally posted by Toad
Flat tax plus sales tax on non-essential items (no tax on food, medicine, etc.)
Sounds good but sales taxes are a State issue, not a Federal one.
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Originally posted by parker00
I never blamed Bush for 9/11, all I am saying is someone should of been held accountable. He should of stepped up and said "you screwed up and I need someone in this job who won't". I'm sorry if you don't see it that way, but the president takes over on day 1, it's his responsibility from then on. Yes I know he can't know everything in every erea, but when you bring the past back like Rumsfield and Chenney then someone should of known something.
how about we hold the senators and congressmen who gutted the intel budgets "because the cold war was over" even tho the intel guys and other senator and congressman warned them not to do this. how about we hold the senators and congressmen who put rediculous limitation on our intel guys because they were potatos to anti american extreme leftists? http://www.frontpagemagazine.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=12701
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Originally posted by SaburoS
Sounds good but sales taxes are a State issue, not a Federal one.
Easily remedied by a congressional vote.
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Might have miss read Subaros post, but in most cases it isnt hard to hear other gun fire over your own.Besides the ak makes a different sound than an m16.
The source was proven by kerrys diary, just wondering if anyone else has heard about his diary?
It does not take a senior officer to recommend him for a medal. There are many times the officer himself writes it up like kerry did.Difference is kerry went around the senior officers.
Now I do know about this, a purple heart is not, repeat not given for a self inflected wound , weather it be accidental or on purpose. End of story.
Darn subaros he has nothing to be ashamed of? You see this is where anger can come in,real anger ,hard anger.
kerry testamony killed at least 2 pows and resulted in added torture for the pows. HE and others like him prolonged the war and thousands on both sides died,according to general giap ,supreme commander of all vietnam forces.
This is the true measure of a man no matter his politics, that in time of war, he does nothing to hurt those that still fight.
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A National Sales Tax idea has been floated before. I don't recall anyone saying it would be unconstitutional. It's merely a law that would have to get through Congress. There's fed tax on gasoline; I don't see where it would be much different from that.
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Originally posted by NUKE
But Hortlund, Kerry is a war hero gaddammit!
been saying that from day one, when skerry started saluting everyone from his doorman on up....
(http://www.pegmusic.com/the-bush.jpg)
LANDSLIDE BUSH!!!
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How can you hold someone accountable for 9/11? How do you stop something like that? Live in a police state? No thank you. The people who should be held accountable are those who planned it, financed it, and carried it out. It's like blaming a governor for a murder that happened in his state. The only one to blame is the murderer, not the gun, or the governor.......or the president.
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Originally posted by Sixpence
How can you hold someone accountable for 9/11? How do you stop something like that? Live in a police state? No thank you. The people who should be held accountable are those who planned it, financed it, and carried it out. It's like blaming a governor for a murder that happened in his state. The only one to blame is the murderer, not the gun, or the governor.......or the president.
A voice of reason....thank you.
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A little something for Eagler:
(http://staticfree.info/graphics/wgirls/wgirl009.jpg)
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OMG Six and I agree on something. Are pigs flying?:D
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subaru... one tiny problem.. bussiness isn't really a person. Each and every one of us profits when these companies do... to punish them is to punish ouselves....
I can think of very few if any government programs that I would mind seeing go bye bye excdept possibly the military and national parks.
kerrie is for even more big wasteful and useless government programs designed to curry votes from the ignorant.
lazs
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Originally posted by lazs2
subaru... one tiny problem.. bussiness isn't really a person. Each and every one of us profits when these companies do... to punish them is to punish ouselves....
I can think of very few if any government programs that I would mind seeing go bye bye excdept possibly the military and national parks.
kerrie is for even more big wasteful and useless government programs designed to curry votes from the ignorant.
lazs
right, much better to ignore any social problems in our own country. save that cash to help pay for another break & build game in Iraq.
I've never figured out how a guy can think providing social services to foreign countries is something to brag about, when at the same time being against those things at home.
one of the reasons you don't hear much discussion on what Kerry has to offer, is we have a real hard time imagining that the simple fact that we won't continue to have Bush as president isn't enough.
it's like interviewing for a job watching someones house for them. it's down to just you and the last guy to do the job. the last guy, on his previous shift, burned down most of the house, stole the bosses credit card and drained the bank account, invited his frat buddy's over for a kegger, picked a fight with the neighbors then used the credit cards to remodle thier house, raped the dog, and took a crap in the pool.
you're sitting there in the interview and the homeowner looks at you and asks you what you have in the way of experience and references. I'd have a hard time keeping a straight face or getting much past the bewilderment that he would even consider hiring the last guy after he had fluffied up the job so badly.
thats kind of how many Kerry supporters see this issue. we look back on the last 4 years and can't believe that him simply not being GWB isn't enough to close the deal.
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Originally posted by Sixpence
How can you hold someone accountable for 9/11? How do you stop something like that? Live in a police state? No thank you. The people who should be held accountable are those who planned it, financed it, and carried it out. It's like blaming a governor for a murder that happened in his state. The only one to blame is the murderer, not the gun, or the governor.......or the president.
according to clintons speech right after 9/11 american arrogance was the cause of the attacks. im confused. :)
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I'm going to go on the record here.
If Kerry is elected he'll never live out his first year of office. Personally I don't think he'd live to take the Oath.
Its not about Kerry, its Edwards that the power brokers want. Kerry was just a way to get him into position.
They already have Bush, this way they are covered no matter what happens.
Ok enough politics, back to flying!
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capt... I would be interested in hearing about all the sucessful socialist programs that you know about. Social security? Welfare? Public schools? 40 cents a gallon tax on gas to have crappy roads? Department of motor vehicles?
What has Bush done that would make your analodgy pertinent? Seems he has done just about everything he said he would... He seems very trustworthy to me as oppossed to the klinton like shiftyness of kerrie.
So what's the deal with you? does the little woman read this board or something?
lazs
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(http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2002/09/images/20020911_moment-silence-911--774v.jpg)
LANDSLIDE BUSH!!!
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Heheh, they are hanging their heads in shame.
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Originally posted by Thrawn
Heheh, they are hanging their heads in shame.
yea, the anniversary of 911 is a big funny for some ...
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Originally posted by KBall
I think Kerry better distance himself from Vietnam very quickly. His campaign running on his military service is creating quite a large hole to climb out of. That hole is getting deeper by the day.
I bet he wishes he hadn't started bashing Bush and Cheney and Rove on the topic of military service. Bit off a little more than he could chew it seems.
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Originally posted by lazs2
capt... I would be interested in hearing about all the successful socialist programs that you know about. Social security? Welfare? Public schools? 40 cents a gallon tax on gas to have crappy roads? Department of motor vehicles?
What has Bush done that would make your analogy pertinent? Seems he has done just about everything he said he would... He seems very trustworthy to me as opposed to the Clinton like shiftiness of Kerrie.
So what's the deal with you? does the little woman read this board or something?
lazs
public schools, while they definitely have their problems as opposed to private schools, are a huge sauces if compared to not having schools for the majority of students (which would be the case were it not for public schools. this would make the problem of the rich getting richer while the poor get poorer even more extreme, since only the rich would be educated. many of our best scientists have made to college with public education, scholarships, or student loans( also another social program).
thousands have avoided starvation due to welfare.
many who didn't have option of saving money for retirement have avoided being put out on the streets with nothing when dis-abaled or too old to be useful in the workplace, thanks to social security.
40 cent gas tax? who gives a damn? first the price has gone up a hell of a lot more than 40 cents since Bush took office, I'd much rather it went to roads than to make some rich oil guy richer. second, with the exception of some of the mid-east countries we have some of the cheapest gas prices in the world, stop whining tough guy. third, where do you propose you drive the high HP cars that you (and me) love if you don't pay for decent roads to drive on? should we do away with the whole public works system? just let entrepreneurs build private roads to places they think you need to drive too? let them charge whatever they can get away with for use of their road? you can park your car and walk to anywhere that nobody thought you needed a road to.
btw, how much do you suppose you'd be paying for gas if they gas stations had to build their own road to get that tanker to the station. do you think your local station would even exist, or would they make you burn up extra gas, to go pick it up somewhere near where the tanker pumps out it's cargo?
DMV? keeping track to see if the guy pulled over in the car is actually the guy who owns it (since I'm not a car thief, I find this function a plus), making sure cars are insured so the dip-**** (who of course has no assets) who runs into my car and cripples me up can pay to cover the damage he does to me. all of this for the $27 a year it costs me to license & DEQ my car, I call it a deal.
what has Bush done? for starters he's lied about evidence to start a war that has only been beneficial to a very small percentage of Americans (those in the military contracting business, and career officers who advance more rapidly in war times), the rest of America has taken it in the shorts, in particular the families of the 1000 or so men who've lost their lives over their.
his tax cuts mostly helped the rich, some benefit to the middle class but not near enough (when looked at the group as a whole) to offset the income lost, due to lost jobs. the middle class now pays slightly less taxes while on average making much less money.
he promises less gov't and delivers bigger gov't.
he promises states rights and delivers challenges to state laws in court.
he says we need to reduce our dependence on foreign oil, and he plans to do that by drilling in Alaska so we can use our own oil.
think about that one for a minute. he wants to reduce our dependence on outside sources by using up our own supplies faster. does that math work for you? if so you are a perfect Bush supporter. the way I do math, you reduce your dependency on out side sources by using them as much as possible in the present while holding on to your own supplies miserly, this way, you hold a bigger slice of the world oil supply every moment that time goes by. his policy won't reduce our dependence, it simply cant, what it will do is allow rich oil men access to our reserves now, so they can buy cheap and with the prices high their profits soar.
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Excellent Apathy! All of them! Excellent, Excellent, Excellent! :)
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Originally posted by capt. apathy
public schools, while they definitely have their problems as opposed to private schools, are a huge sauces if compared to not having schools for the majority of students (which would be the case were it not for public schools. this would make the problem of the rich getting richer while the poor get poorer even more extreme, since only the rich would be educated. many of our best scientists have made to college with public education, scholarships, or student loans( also another social program).
thousands have avoided starvation due to welfare.
many who didn't have option of saving money for retirement have avoided being put out on the streets with nothing when dis-abaled or too old to be useful in the workplace, thanks to social security.
40 cent gas tax? who gives a damn? first the price has gone up a hell of a lot more than 40 cents since Bush took office, I'd much rather it went to roads than to make some rich oil guy richer. second, with the exception of some of the mid-east countries we have some of the cheapest gas prices in the world, stop whining tough guy. third, where do you propose you drive the high HP cars that you (and me) love if you don't pay for decent roads to drive on? should we do away with the whole public works system? just let entrepreneurs build private roads to places they think you need to drive too? let them charge whatever they can get away with for use of their road? you can park your car and walk to anywhere that nobody thought you needed a road to.
btw, how much do you suppose you'd be paying for gas if they gas stations had to build their own road to get that tanker to the station. do you think your local station would even exist, or would they make you burn up extra gas, to go pick it up somewhere near where the tanker pumps out it's cargo?
DMV? keeping track to see if the guy pulled over in the car is actually the guy who owns it (since I'm not a car thief, I find this function a plus), making sure cars are insured so the dip-**** (who of course has no assets) who runs into my car and cripples me up can pay to cover the damage he does to me. all of this for the $27 a year it costs me to license & DEQ my car, I call it a deal.
what has Bush done? for starters he's lied about evidence to start a war that has only been beneficial to a very small percentage of Americans (those in the military contracting business, and career officers who advance more rapidly in war times), the rest of America has taken it in the shorts, in particular the families of the 1000 or so men who've lost their lives over their.
his tax cuts mostly helped the rich, some benefit to the middle class but not near enough (when looked at the group as a whole) to offset the income lost, due to lost jobs. the middle class now pays slightly less taxes while on average making much less money.
he promises less gov't and delivers bigger gov't.
he promises states rights and delivers challenges to state laws in court.
he says we need to reduce our dependence on foreign oil, and he plans to do that by drilling in Alaska so we can use our own oil.
think about that one for a minute. he wants to reduce our dependence on outside sources by using up our own supplies faster. does that math work for you? if so you are a perfect Bush supporter. the way I do math, you reduce your dependency on out side sources by using them as much as possible in the present while holding on to your own supplies miserly, this way, you hold a bigger slice of the world oil supply every moment that time goes by. his policy won't reduce our dependence, it simply cant, what it will do is allow rich oil men access to our reserves now, so they can buy cheap and with the prices high their profits soar.
the second you say "bush lied" when in fact what happened was intel wasnt one hundred percent accurate and precognitive-SHOCKING to anyone without an idea how such things work i know-everything else you say needs to be screened thru the "moveon.org dem propoganda jizz guzzling robot filter". in other words you hate bush and kerry himself telling you hell make a better cic wouldnt budge your opinions a bit. if kerry disagreed with you youd call him a "traitor" and move back to worshipping screamer dean.
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where to start!
"public schools, while they definitely have their problems as opposed to private schools, are a huge sauces if compared to not having schools for the majority of students (which would be the case were it not for public schools. this would make the problem of the rich getting richer while the poor get poorer even more extreme, since only the rich would be educated. many of our best scientists have made to college with public education, scholarships, or student loans( also another social program)."
The money is extorted from the taxpayers for public schools but we are not allowed to choose where it goes... it is spent wastefully on public schools when every study ever done shows that private schools outperform public schools by a huge margin... get the government out of the school system..
"thousands have avoided starvation due to welfare."
Whaaaa? can you name one person who ever starved to death in the U.S. who did so because no one would feed him? There is not one documented case... It can be argued that welfare has destroyed the family tho and created a poverty class that did not previously exist... get the government out of the family and charity...
"many who didn't have option of saving money for retirement have avoided being put out on the streets with nothing when dis-abaled or too old to be useful in the workplace, thanks to social security."
Social security is a badly run program that would be better served if the government did not run it... No one can survive on SS benifiets.
"40 cent gas tax? who gives a damn? first the price has gone up a hell of a lot more than 40 cents since Bush took office, I'd much rather it went to roads than to make some rich oil guy richer. second, with the exception of some of the mid-east countries we have some of the cheapest gas prices in the world, stop whining tough guy. third, where do you propose you drive the high HP cars that you (and me) love if you don't pay for decent roads to drive on? should we do away with the whole public works system? just let entrepreneurs build private roads to places they think you need to drive too? let them charge whatever they can get away with for use of their road? you can park your car and walk to anywhere that nobody thought you needed a road to."
LOL! are you really that naive? 40 cents a gallon would provide 10 lane gold plated roads if left to private industry.... go ahead.... see how many contractors are willing to bid on maintaining infrastructure at 40 cents a gallon! you would get hundreds at 10 cents a gallon.... get the government out of the road building and maintaining bussiness... they are incompetent.
"btw, how much do you suppose you'd be paying for gas if they gas stations had to build their own road to get that tanker to the station. do you think your local station would even exist, or would they make you burn up extra gas, to go pick it up somewhere near where the tanker pumps out it's cargo?"
see above...
"DMV? keeping track to see if the guy pulled over in the car is actually the guy who owns it (since I'm not a car thief, I find this function a plus), making sure cars are insured so the dip-**** (who of course has no assets) who runs into my car and cripples me up can pay to cover the damage he does to me. all of this for the $27 a year it costs me to license & DEQ my car, I call it a deal."
Again... any private company could do a better job. simply require each state to keep records... get the government out of it.
"what has Bush done? for starters he's lied about evidence to start a war that has only been beneficial to a very small percentage of Americans (those in the military contracting business, and career officers who advance more rapidly in war times), the rest of America has taken it in the shorts, in particular the families of the 1000 or so men who've lost their lives over their."
Lied? then so did kerrie... they said the same thing based on the same info. 1000 men? any man is sad but that is a pitance considering... a well fought war I would say.
"his tax cuts mostly helped the rich, some benefit to the middle class but not near enough (when looked at the group as a whole) to offset the income lost, due to lost jobs. the middle class now pays slightly less taxes while on average making much less money."
I got a tax cut and I'm not rich.... how do you give the poor a tax cut? They don't pay taxes.
"he promises less gov't and delivers bigger gov't.
he promises states rights and delivers challenges to state laws in court.
he says we need to reduce our dependence on foreign oil, and he plans to do that by drilling in Alaska so we can use our own oil.
think about that one for a minute. he wants to reduce our dependence on outside sources by using up our own supplies faster. does that math work for you? if so you are a perfect Bush supporter. the way I do math, you reduce your dependency on out side sources by using them as much as possible in the present while holding on to your own supplies miserly, this way, you hold a bigger slice of the world oil supply every moment that time goes by. his policy won't reduce our dependence, it simply cant, what it will do is allow rich oil men access to our reserves now, so they can buy cheap and with the prices high their profits soar."
I am not against exploration of oil in Alaska.. How is Bush giving us bigger government except for security? How is Bush advocating using our oil faster? Where do you come up with this stuff?
lazs
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Laz is right on about the oil.
Maintain LARGE reserves which we do.
Keep our wells shut down, while buring as much as they care to sell us.
Eventually we'll have oil & the middle east will be back to camel dung.
Granted, we lose some jobs by not keeping drillers busy.
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Originally posted by Eagler
yea, the anniversary of 911 is a big funny for some ...
Heheh, I totally knew you were going to go for righteous indignation. :aok
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I pretty much say.... use it all up and then go to something else...
lazs
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Originally posted by Ghosth
Granted, we lose some jobs by not keeping drillers busy.
Actually, the drillers have not really ever slowed down. There are thousands of drillings in the gulf and thousands of oil wells in the gulf. They drill them, find the oil and cap the well.. Thousands upon thousands..
Now they want more in the protected lands? The average person might recognize this as greed and not necessity..
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Flat Tax I am all for
say 25% across the board and a 1 or 2% national sales tax.
corporations can pay say 5-10%.
The tax code should pretty much be 1 page no loopholes, no grey areas etc (and easily readable)...would have no need for the IRS really anymore.
As far as what bush has spent money on (just deficit money here)
we have 500 billion of debt.
180 billion on war and security.
The rest was put into education, farm subsides, medicare and social security. All these programs have had a substantial increases under the Bush administration. Most going into medicare and SS, the problem with these 2 programs is that people live longer nowadays and still go on SS and medicare at the same age they did 30-40 years ago. If you made retirement 2 years later you would save billions.
And it is indeed time to start drilling in Alaska it's long overdue, at least stop buying oil from OPEC (the Saudi's and Venezuela in particular). The rest comes from Canada anyway (Non-OPEC).
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Originally posted by Ghosth
Laz is right on about the oil.
Maintain LARGE reserves which we do.
Keep our wells shut down, while buring as much as they care to sell us.
Eventually we'll have oil & the middle east will be back to camel dung.
Granted, we lose some jobs by not keeping drillers busy.
actually that was my point. laz is for using all of ours up as fast as the cars can drink it.
Bush is for getting as much of ours out of the ground as soon as possible as well.
it's the double talk that amazes me (and the people who swallow it without a second thought). Bush says we need to reduce our dependency on foreign oil (this I agree with completely), then he finishes up the thought with the way to achieve this goal is to allow access to oil on our land that nobody is pumping (an excellent savings account, don't you think? hard for someone to be tempted to spend it too quickly if it hasn't been pumped yet.).
the problem is that he states a very admirable goal that is easy to get people to support, but when he tells you how he plans to reach that goal his plan is either in-effective or counter productive. I see this as very telling, it indicates one of two possibilities- either he's deceitful or a moron, my guess would go for a 2-fer.
it's like the need for a response to the 9/11 attacks, so (after the legitimate trip to Afghanistan) we attack Iraq.
we've had a few reasons given for the Iraq war.
1. In response to 9/11.
2. WMD, that are a clear and present threat to the US and immediately deployable.
3. they tried to by plutonium.
4. ties to al-qada.
5. Saddam was a bad guy.
how many of you have kids? if you asked your kid why they did something and they give you a lame excuse, then you call them on it so they give you another lame excuse, so you call them on it..... wash rinse repeat. how many new stories do you have to hear before you catch on the kid is lying?
somehow when Bush tries this people buy it.
"it's 'cause of 9/11. no? would you believe WMD? no? would you believe plutonium?...."
come on people, I've had intelligent discussions with many of you on other subject, you aren't this stupid. what going on?
I seriously believe the man has never had a complete thought that wouldn't fit on a bumper-sticker. I can see falling for it once. Clinton, while overall doing a good job, was disappointing on many levels (Lewinsky, hiring Janet reno, Waco just to name a few.) but after you have had 4 years to see what a clown this guy is people are still considering voting for him again.
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Capt apathy...
Ok capt time to start thinking with your brain, no talking points nothing but common sense.
9/11 has come and gone, and you are president. Every one you know from both parties including, but not limited to , kerry, clinton,edwards, grahm,daschle says saddam has wmds. They say we can not allow this to stand.
Every country, including but not limited to , france,germany,norway,britian russia,italy,canada, australia, in fact every person and country that now calls him a liar said they had wmds.
You are deciding how much of a threat iraq is when russia calls you and said there are secret meetings between al quida and irag to determine how to hit america again.
Well mr.president what are you going to do to protect my family and me. What are you going to do to protect america?
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the problem is that many of the points that turned out to be bad intel, where still being given as reasons to sell the Iraq war, after Bush was told they were wrong.
it's one thing if it were a good-faith error in intel, but when you keep saying you have the evidence even after you know it to be wrong, then that is just exploiting the situation.
the others who were voting to go ahead were doing so on info from this administration.
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Originally posted by demaw1
9/11 has come and gone, and you are president. Every one you know from both parties including, but not limited to , kerry, clinton,edwards, grahm,daschle says saddam has wmds. They say we can not allow this to stand.
Nice out of context situation. You are forget the whole [/i]probably[/i] aspect. Like what the US intelligence services here actually saying. SH probably had WMD. It was the Bush Administration that turned that around and said he did have WMD. And administation that before 9/11 had members that were part of a think tank that said Iraq needed to be attacked for other reasons. An administration that shortly after 9/11 were looking for a way to use it to justify an attack on Iraq. An administration that after 9/11 had an almost unprecidented approval rating, but was falling. If it was going to attack Iraq it had to do it relatively quick because of it's falling approval rating, and because the UN inspectors (whose system of reporting was proposed by by the Bush administion in resolution 1441), with full prompt access to all sites wasn't finding crap, had to go to war "now", because of "imminent threat".
Every country, including but not limited to , france,germany,norway,britian russia,italy, canada, australia, in fact every person and country that now calls him a liar said they had wmds.
This is nothing less than a pack of lies. Can you please post press releases from the above mentioned governments were they said that Iraq, has WMD. I would be most interested in a link to when the Canadian government said this.
Your post is very reminicent to the style of misleading that the Bush Administration is currently particpating in. Namely, stating an unknown as a known. Or more specifically, naming something that can only be known when the proposed action is carried out, as something that is already known.
IE: Iraq has WMD.
How will we know?
Invade and find out.
Opps.
"Simply stated, there is no doubt that Saddam Hussein now has weapons of mass destruction."
Dick Cheney August 26, 2002
Is that so Mr. Cheney?
"If he declares he has none, then we will know that Saddam Hussein is once again misleading the world."
Ari Fleischer December 2, 2002
Is that so Mr. Fleischer?
"We know where they are. They are in the area around Tikrit and Baghdad."
Donald Rumsfeld March 30, 2003
Is that so Mr. Rumsfeld ?
"We'll find them. It'll be a matter of time to do so."
George Bush May 3, 2003
Is that so Mr. Bush.
All examples of stating possibilities as definiates.
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Sheep are easy to herd, all you need is a few dogs and a cane.
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Bush in an electoral landslide Thrawn, get used to it.
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well.. the way I look at it is... the sadman was a mad tyrant who had worked on nuclear and boilogical weapons in the past.... he pretty much proved he was still doing so by defying the UN and it's inspectors... Every source around the world and kerrie himself figured he had the weapons. I figure that even if he didn't.... he would have em as soon as the UN guys got out of the way.
As it turned out... he either didn't have any more weapons or he got rid of em before the war started. A war he knew he would lose.
The people there are better off... we didn't lose many more people than if we had simply had a lot of intensive training exercises to up our readiness.... the training was also worth something.
The example of our resolve was a good thing. Funding of terrorists is now a lot more risky behavior. We also learned a lot about things we weren't too well versed on yet.
Bush said he would turn over the government of the iraqis in june and he did.
not a lot to get upset with...
I like the outcome in iraq a lot better than the outcome in somalia.
lazs
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Originally posted by Torque
Sheep are easy to herd, all you need is a few dogs and a cane.
That certainly explains the protesters in NYC right now. Thanks!
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Originally posted by Steve
Bush in an electoral landslide Thrawn, get used to it.
Taking a possibility and stating it as a definite Steve? LOL.
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Thrawn...pack of lies.
Pack of lies, There is not 1 lie in what I said, If you want prove all you have to do is look back over all the threads and you will find what you are looking for. Our cia said he might have them [roll eyes]
Fine you dont like bush, I cant imagine what it is to lie about someone, any one, much less someone that was/is under the type of pressure he is.
You really have not seen the reports on what I said ?
It was a simple question...just answer it
Bush was not told he didnt have them, dont forget putin called him with that info just before we attacked,.
What would you do with it.
Oh btw didnt we accidently find a bunch of migs under ground he was not suppose to have? I wonder what the kurds would say about him having no wmds...You would gamble with American lives wouldnt you.
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Taking a possibility and stating it as a definite Steve? LOL.
You've repeatedly said in other threads that Bush will lose.
I'm telling you to get prepared for four more years of effective leadership, via GWB. Kerry would stick our collective heads up the arses of the appeasers like FRance and Germany, at least until he changed his mind..... no thank you.