Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Gunslinger on August 29, 2004, 05:35:03 PM
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Chirac sent an envoy to Iraq recently to negotiate the release of two journalists.
The terrorists demands????? they want france to repeal the french ban on arab head scarfs in schools.
Think they will apease?
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They should never have passed such a damed intollerant anti-religious freedom law anyway...
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Helps when you check IDs for exams.
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Many french students wear full body burkas?
Anyway I hear tis law bans all sort of religious symbols from crosses on necklaces, or stars of david, to headscarves that cover the hair, and the jewish yarmulka hat.. Seems very anti personal religious freedom of expression to me.. Especially for france, a country that thiunks of itself as a beacon of liberty in european tradion..
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Many french students wear full body burkas?
Anyway I hear tis law bans all sort of religious symbols from crosses on necklaces, or stars of david, to headscarves that cover the hair, and the jewish yarmulka hat.. Seems very anti personal religious freedom of expression to me.. Especially for france, a country that thiunks of itself as a beacon of liberty in european tradion..
You are wrong there GRUN. France is becomeing one of the most secular countrys in europe.
Its happening here in the US as well.....no longer is it freedom of religion but freedom FROM religion.
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I think france fancies itself as a land of liberte.. Their actions dont mactch, but that was my point..
Funny thing is France will soon have huge problems with its empoverished muslim underclass..
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It's a law about religious signs at school. France is a laïque country, you can have any religion you want, but school isn't the place to show it of.
It's not only the scarfs but any religious signs at school.
If you can't understand that it's the laïque system that keep us free, to have the religon i want, to think whatever i want to think, please Grunhertz stay where you are (and it seems obvious you won't visit us anytime soon)...
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My post says exactly what you said about this law.. Yet you have try to pick a fight, ok Quabie..
So french scholls are not a place for free expression.. What a wonderful atmosphere to indoctorinate children in uhhmm what intolerance?
And I'll whereever the hell I want you damned insecure xenophobic french type..
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
... you damned insecure xenophobic french type..
If you do not go away, I shall taunt you a second time! Silly kniggets.
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Of course the French will cave in.
Expecially if money becomes involved.
dago
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And I'll whereever the hell I want you damned insecure xenophobic french type..
Isn't that sentence xenophobic on french?
It seems you don't understand (or don't want to) that keeping something that has nothing to do with school away from it garanty our liberty and freedom.
What a wonderful atmosphere to indoctorinate children in uhhmm what introlerance ?
Show me were is intolerance? We have the biggest musulman and jew community in europe living in almost harmony...
My country doesn't have 'god' in his national song, therefore we maybe aren't as 'indoctorinate' as you...
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Originally posted by Ouaibe
Isn't that sentence xenophobic on french?
It seems you don't understand (or don't want to) that keeping something that has nothing to do with school away from it garanty our liberty and freedom.
Show me were is intolerance? We have the biggest musulman and jew community in europe living in almost harmony...
My country doesn't have 'god' in his national song, therefore we maybe aren't as 'indoctorinate' as you...
Just playing devils advocate here (no pun intended)
If my religioun requires me to wear a head scarf in order to observe some type of significance wouldnt not allowing said scarf to be warn in school hinder my ability to properly practice my religion?
I agree that certain concessions need to be made IE if it hinders ability to check IDs or if said symbols become a destraction.
But saying I cant wear the cross of Jesus around my neck or the star of david or a head scarf because it doesnt belong in school is sheltering children that arent religious and hindering those that do.
Do you think France will give in to terrorist demands?
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Originally posted by Ouaibe
Isn't that sentence xenophobic on french?
It seems you don't understand (or don't want to) that keeping something that has nothing to do with school away from it garanty our liberty and freedom.
Show me were is intolerance? We have the biggest musulman and jew community in europe living in almost harmony...
My country doesn't have 'god' in his national song, therefore we maybe aren't as 'indoctorinate' as you...
No your anthem is just a bloodthirsty call for revenge and mass murder..
Your laws are intollerant by impose the standards of atheists on people of faith. Whats next? Is France going to demand that Sikh boys cut their hair so they can legally attend schools?
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If my religioun requires me to wear a head scarf in order to observe some type of significance wouldnt not allowing said scarf to be warn in school hinder my ability to properly practice my religion?
At least a constructive post :)
You are right. You have to know how the school system works in France. You can go to 2 types of school, public or private school.
The law is only for public school, a place of neutrality. Private school can do whatever they want. So do the studant, he can go to public school and so accept neutrality in religions, or go to a private school that accept ostentatious religious sings.
Do you think France will give in to terrorist demands?
Sure not. France has never withdraw against terrorism.
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(http://www.painetworks.com/photos/fb/fb0365.JPG)
Or how about Jewish boy's hair curls? This a religious obligation for some sects of Judaism. Are french teachers going to tell him to cut it off before attending class.
I'm sure that Europe is going to love the image of yet another generation of intollerant state officals cutting off the hair curls of Jewish men..
The more things change, well you know...
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So one has to be able to afford private school tutions in order to freely follow ones religion?
Does the French state fully subsidize such tutions for all students?
If not then I guess we can add that France not only practices religious intollerance but that they also deny the right to religious practice to the children of the poor.
Nice!
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Grunhertz you just prove your unability to read :
YOU
Or how about Jewish boy's hair curls? This a religious obligation for some sects of Judaism. Are french teachers going to tell him to cut it off before attending class.
after that
he can go to public school and so accept neutrality in religions, or go to a private school that accept ostentatious religious sings.
from me.
The more things change, well you know...
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LOL, Grun, you crack me up.
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I find it ironic that france protested this war and yet they are now the victims of the same people we are trying to remove. This should just go to show that these animals dont care what war you are inolved in, all it takes is you not believing in what every beliefs they share. I hope the world wakes up with these kidnappings and points out that everyone needs to be involved in the war against terrorism, and against nations run by dictators only interested in increasing their power.
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What if he is poor and cannot afford private school?
France, the land where the rich can send their kids to private schools that offer freedom of expression and where the poor cant have religious freedom for their children if they want them to learn to read and write!
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The thing that's beautifull about France, versus USA, is that private schools, if they are recognized by the state, have to cost the same as public school and students have the same privilege as others...
Grunhertz, no France isn't evil, we aren't as xenophobic as you.
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So the Freanch government pays for all private schol tuitions?
Or are you saying that all french schools including the public ones are just for the rich who can afford to pay for the fees..
In the USA public schools are free, in manyv ways, it seems...
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
What if he is poor and cannot afford private school?
France, the land where the rich can send their kids to private schools that offer freedom of expression and where the poor cant have religious freedom for their children if they want them to learn to read and write!
Never mind I have been drinking...
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Let it fly...the best posts always come from the bottle!
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Originally posted by Ouaibe
Grunhertz, no France isn't evil, we aren't as xenophobic as you.
Lets look at the french anthenm to see how unxenophobic france is..
Fatherland... Check..
Evil foreign cohorts.. Check...
More fatherland.. Check..
Foreign Mercenary phalanxes... check!!!
Frenchmen, as magnanimous warriors... Uhhm, ok.. Check!
. Arise children of the fatherland
The day of glory has arrived
Against us tyranny's
Bloody standard is raised
Listen to the sound in the fields
The howling of these fearsome soldiers
They are coming into our midst
To cut the throats of your sons and consorts
To arms citizens
Form you battalions
March, march
Let impure blood
Water our furrows
2. What do they want this horde of slaves
Of traitors and conspiratorial kings?
For whom these vile chains
These long-prepared irons?
Frenchmen, for us, ah! What outrage
What methods must be taken?
It is we they dare plan
To return to the old slavery!
3. What! These foreign cohorts!
They would make laws in our courts!
What! These mercenary phalanxes
Would cut down our warrior sons
Good Lord! By chained hands
Our brow would yield under the yoke
The vile despots would have themselves be
The masters of destiny
4. Tremble, tyrants and traitors
The shame of all good men
Tremble! Your parricidal schemes
Will receive their just reward
Against you we are all soldiers
If they fall, our young heros
France will bear new ones
Ready to join the fight against you
5. Frenchmen, as magnanimous warriors
Bear or hold back your blows
Spare these sad victims
Who with regret are taking up arms against us
But not these bloody despots
These accomplices of Bouillé
All these tigers who pitilessly
Are ripping open their mothers' breasts
6. Sacred Love for the Fatherland
Lead and support our avenging arms
Liberty, cherished liberty
Join the struggle with your defenders
Under our flags, let victory
hasten to you virile (or manly) force
So that in death your enemies
See your triumph and our glory!
7. We shall enter into the pit
When our elders will no longer be there
There we shall find their ashes
And the mark of their virtues
We are much less jealous of surviving them
Than of sharing their coffins
We shall have the sublime pride
Of avenging or joining them
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I find it ironic that france protested this war and yet they are now the victims of the same people we are trying to remove
We have protested against this war because it was done for the wrong reasons.
If you want to clear world from bestiality and tirants you should not respond with bestiality or you'll be seen as the same as them.
Afganistan was a nest of terrorist and was , in a part, responsible of the horrible attack of the 11 sept. We were there, with you as almost all free country in this world to stop them.
Iraq wasn't incriminated in the 11 sept, they weren't terrorists (Irak was a laïque country...), they didn't have WMD, but they had a tirant.
They were other ways to remove him and free Iraq from him. You did the wrong way with the wrong reasons.
Now see what happens there...
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Originally posted by Ouaibe
They were other ways to remove him and free Iraq from him. You did the wrong way with the wrong reasons.
Now see what happens there...
Yep, I'm sure all those giant french oil companies getting fat on oil sanctions era schemes were working night and and day to remove saddam!
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Ok im not an idiot and although I love my country and would fight to the death for it I do see that we have gone into the war with some bad decisions. But also I know that a dictator who killed thousands of his own people is no longer in power, the violence that we see now was taking place before the war we just never heard about it because it was covered up. To think that the kindnappings and bombings would never have taken place if we had not gone to war is ignorant, mabye there would not have been as many but they still would have happened. Do I think this war will end the terror NO, but do I think the world is safer without him in power YES, do I think the Iraqis will have a better future YES. I do also feel that you will never end terrorisim because for every OBL there will be someone to take his place.
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Grunhertz, our national anthenm is one of the most magnificant anthenm ever wrote (with USA i concede you that).
By the way do you know when and what for it was written ?
1792, second french revolution, the army of Rhin wrote this song to encourage there men preparing them to the fights they'll have to do against :
Evil foreign cohorts : Europe wasn't peaceful at that time, other countries tried to profit from the weakness of France after his 1789 revolution and have sent troops to re-establish royalty.
Foreign Mercenary phalanxes : read above.
Frenchmen, as magnanimous warriors : hum what? where's the problem here?
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I do also feel that you will never end terrorisim because for every OBL there will be someone to take his place.
I found it funny that USA, who has suffer terrorism for the first time in 2001, told countries that suffers and FIGHT (sometimes successfully) against it for almost 40 years what to do about it.
We were right about WMD, we were right about the mess it will be after the end of the 'official' war...
Sure one more tirant down, at what price?
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"they didn't have WMD"
they did. Ask the kurds.
Ou said:
"The thing that's beautifull about France, versus USA, is that private schools, if they are recognized by the state, have to cost the same as public school and students have the same privilege as others.."
Grunz said:
"So the Freanch government pays for all private schol tuitions?
Or are you saying that all french schools including the public ones are just for the rich who can afford to pay for the fees.. "
Can you please answer his question? Im really curious (that and amazed Grunz actually has a constructive posting streak ;) ).
More Q's from me on this:
1) Do all public schoools have the same curriculum and resources? As in, a school in a really poor part of the country have the same access to gov. money and teachers and installations as one in a very rich area of the country?
2) What is the cost of a 'public' school? If you say that private ones have to cost the same as public ones then they should be pretty darn cheap so that even the poorest person can have a basic education no?
Please answer Grun's and my questions... I ask because in my country (Colombia) there are laws that put a limit on how expensive a private school can be compared to the state funded private schools.. and ALL the private schools circumvent laws of the sort by asking for a 'donation' each school year right before student applications are considered and accepted for the coming school year.
Hope thats not the case in France, but really, you cant have public=private without some sort of huge catch on private schools. Private schools are bussinesses.
edit: d'oh back on topic: No France will not cave in to demands. Too much loss of face if they did. However, theres nothing that says they wont pay off the kidnappers in some other way to get their citizens.
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I know the background, and yes la marseillaise is a great song, I like it a lot.
Still the words are clearly xenophobic.
And french culture has a lot of that.
Take for example the french governments efforts to keep the french language pure from foreign expressions. Just a few years ago there was a big crackdown on the "english" sounding word "email" from what I hear.
Or how about France reducing her participation in the NATO multinatyinal allience.
Or frances long refusal to stop testing nuclear weapons above ground..
There is a strong xenophobic and insular trait in this nation..
BTW none of this is neccesarily ment as a negative judgement agianst your country, its just an observation.
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Yep, I'm sure all those giant french oil companies getting fat on oil sanctions era schemes were working night and and day to remove saddam!
Grunhertz, isn't Bush family and Rumsfeld in oil industry also?
Sure some french industry doesn't have clean hands, how's the USA one? Surely not cleaner.
Can you see the world otherwise than black & white?
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Ya know I tried to be nice about this Ouaibe, I even showed that I understand some of the negatives. But all you can do is sit there and make the U.S. look evil. Dont forget buddy youd be saluting the Swastika if we had not stepped in. In fact from what I understand, with the outbreak of Neo-Nazi gangs in your country you may be flying that flag soon enough. If it was up too me I would tell the rest of the world to kiss our a## and I would bring all of our troops home and let everyone deal with their own problems, but that is not the belief we built our country on. How much aide did we recieve after the 9/11 attacks from other countries. You think this war was useless well Libya who was one of the leading countries in production of Nuclear weapons is now pushing for a world free of them. I dont want to hear another word out of you about how horrible my country is because you cant open your eyes to the bigger picture.
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Originally posted by Ouaibe
We were right about WMD,
Please show me a pre-war quote where Chiraq said something like, "The French government knows that Iraq has completely divested itself of WMD's."
If you knew that why did you support further inspections?
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Originally posted by Ouaibe
Grunhertz, isn't Bush family and Rumsfeld in oil industry also?
Sure some french industry doesn't have clean hands, how's the USA one? Surely not cleaner.
Can you see the world otherwise than black & white?
What do french oil companies violationg the iraq sanctions have to do with us companies?
You really arent saying that its ok for france to violate internatioinal laws because the us president worked at an oil company...
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oh and another thing you IGNORANT jacka#$ how about the first bombing of the trade towers how about the attack on the oklahoma federal building, 9/11 was not our first terrorist attacks, so think before you talk.
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Calm down stuka. Quabie has been quite nice inn his disagreements, no need for such anger.
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I know the background, and yes la marseillaise is a great song, I like it a lot.
How can someone doesn't like it? ;)
Still the words are clearly xenophobic.
Replacing them in context, i see them as patriotic.
Take for example the french governments efforts to keep the french language pure from foreign expressions. Just a few years ago there was a big crackdown on the "english" sounding word "email" from what I hear.
That was dumb. French government can be sometimes really stupid. A lot of french, myself also, wasn't for that law. Not a person i know use the 'official' word mèl but email as everyone else in the world.
Or how about France reducing her participation in the NATO multinatyinal allience.
France has a long history of military independance (sometimes for the best, sometimes for the worst). We joined NATO quite recently and i don't see our government invest in it anytime soon.
Or frances long refusal to stop testing nuclear weapons above grpund..
I found that move from my country completly scandalous. has nothing to say about more than i am totally oposed to that.
So clearly france is an insular nation. There is a strong xenophobic and insular trait in this nation..
It's your view. A lot of country think otherwise.
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btw, Spain also has a similar procedure to 'keep' the language 'clean'.
Just ask someone from south america (spanish speaking) what name they use for a computer, then ask someone from spain.
try not to laugh in their faces ;)
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I dont want to hear another word out of you about how horrible my country is because you cant open your eyes to the bigger picture.
Where did i say that i found your country evil?
In fact, i found it quite great. I've gone to USA only one time, i was greatly welcome and had a great time. I found also that USA have done great things to the world in the past century.
Is my though against the way your country did the war in IRAQ let you think that i am an anti-USA? Then maybe we shouldn't talk each other anymore, it's stupid but maybe true.
how about the first bombing of the trade towers how about the attack on the oklahoma federal building
Amen to that, i tragically forget to mention them. My apology for that. But it doesn't excuse the way you talk to me nor changes my point of view.
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I'm quite happy we have kept this discution quite cool and rational Grun. Thank you Grund and Gunslinger for that.
OIO, Holden, i will do my best to answer you tomorrow, it's 3AM here and i have to go to work tomorrow.
Good night everyone!
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I found it funny that USA, who has suffer terrorism for the first time in 2001
You should read other newspapers.
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Originally posted by Ouaibe
Replacing them in context, i see them as patriotic.
Would you be so generous with American attitudes in these times so close to 911?
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Originally posted by RTStuka
Dont forget buddy youd be saluting the Swastika if we had not stepped in. In fact from what I understand, with the outbreak of Neo-Nazi gangs in your country you may be flying that flag soon enough.
Don't be such an ignoramus. You'd be speaking.... British if it weren't for the French.
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Ya know I tried to be nice about this Ouaibe, I even showed that I understand some of the negatives. But all you can do is sit there and make the U.S. look evil. Dont forget buddy youd be saluting the Swastika if we had not stepped in. In fact from what I understand, with the outbreak of Neo-Nazi gangs in your country you may be flying that flag soon enough.
I would just like to point out that france *WAS* saluting the swastika. Only a few were trying to fight it.
However, here is where I go back on topic. Something about the school system doesn't make sense. I don't know if it's how you layed it out or how it actually is.
1.) You said that private schools have to cost as much as a public school does. This means that a private school is just as open as a public school and it is infact a public school.
2.) Then, if it still is "Special", how is admittance handed out? Just to anyone that asks? Or is it to those who can "Support" the school the most. Is it done by family names.
What I'm basically leading up to is that even with the private schools being as accessible as public schools the enrollments are handed at to the affluent and rich families.
So basically your freedom to do what you want is still only offered to the richest 50% of the population, while the poor still aren't allowed to do what they want.
Now this is why I like america. Everyone is allowed to practice what they want. However, they don't go running around with a shotgun saying, "You will do this or I will blow your freaking head off." No one pressures anyone else but information or advice is easily given to those who ask.
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religion is like sexual preferences, it should not be thrown to people faces, especially childrens.
I do not walk butt naked with my leather jacket trailling my chained slaved in your garden, don't throw in my face Alha bless America.
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Yeah, I think France will cave, hope I'm wrong. Not because I think France is right in repressing religious expression but because I'd like to see them grow some nads.
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Originally posted by RTStuka
Ya know I tried to be nice about this Ouaibe, I even showed that I understand some of the negatives. But all you can do is sit there and make the U.S. look evil. Dont forget buddy youd be saluting the Swastika if we had not stepped in. In fact from what I understand, with the outbreak of Neo-Nazi gangs in your country you may be flying that flag soon enough. If it was up too me I would tell the rest of the world to kiss our a## and I would bring all of our troops home and let everyone deal with their own problems, but that is not the belief we built our country on. How much aide did we recieve after the 9/11 attacks from other countries. You think this war was useless well Libya who was one of the leading countries in production of Nuclear weapons is now pushing for a world free of them. I dont want to hear another word out of you about how horrible my country is because you cant open your eyes to the bigger picture.
So it's OK to take the piss out of France all day long, insult it's systems of law and education, make fun of it's armed forces, and generally harrass the Frenchies, but as soon as a Frenchman says "Hey, my country isn't perfect, and I know that, how about yours?" you get all upset about him belittling the US of A?
Bigotry? Whats that?
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Fantasic Grun, you managed to instigate yet another flamewar.
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Grun has a crush on France ;)
They have voted the same "anty-scarf" law here, I find it pretty silly personaly, but apparently most pple agree with it. North african immigration is very high in northern Europe, and of course... it's not always easy to deal with the culture clash. But I'm sure you guys have a perfect plan, right?
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France won't cave. Wait and see.
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Originally posted by Saintaw
Grun has a crush on France ;)
They have voted the same "anty-scarf" law here, I find it pretty silly personaly, but apparently most pple agree with it. North african immigration is very high in northern Europe, and of course... it's not always easy to deal with the culture clash. But I'm sure you guys have a perfect plan, right?
Yep supress the poor ethnic minority's right to follow their faith and get an education at the same time.
That plan will work great, always has!
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Damn Grun.. you post better when drunk that i can ever hope to do. :)
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France shouldnt give in to these terrorists demands. I hope nobody really thinks this Iraq kidnapping was really about the school law, as stupid as the law is..
But I do wonder what will happend when the terrorism does start over these laws. Demanding that people give up their freedom of expression and faith just so that their children have acess to public schooling where they can learn to read and write is prolly not a good idea.
I also have concerns about how effective this will be as an integrating mechanism for immigrants. Imagine the outcome of basically forcing droves of possibly upset or slighthed north african muslim kids into private religious muslim schools. It should be great fun for the french people...
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
So the Freanch government pays for all private schol tuitions?
yes.
Originally posted by OIO
More Q's from me on this:
1) Do all public schoools have the same curriculum and resources? As in, a school in a really poor part of the country have the same access to gov. money and teachers and installations as one in a very rich area of the country?
2) What is the cost of a 'public' school? If you say that private ones have to cost the same as public ones then they should be pretty darn cheap so that even the poorest person can have a basic education no?
1) same
2) depend , it's very complex and difficult to explain in a BBS post.
Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Take for example the french governments efforts to keep the french language pure from foreign expressions. Just a few years ago there was a big crackdown on the "english" sounding word "email" from what I hear.
I won't call the reaction of a thousand Parisian intellectuals a "big crackdown"
Except for joking :D
Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
What do french oil companies violationg the iraq sanctions have to do with us companies?
You really arent saying that its ok for france to violate internatioinal laws because the us president worked at an oil company...
What company ?
What violation ?
Originally posted by Ouaibe
How can someone doesn't like it? ;)
I don't really like the Marseillaise, a bit "over patriotic" for me.
but hell we don't have proper subsitute ...
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"I don't really like the Marseillaise, a bit "over patriotic" for me."
You hate your own anthem for being patriotic???
What other one would you have?
"France is my country and it's just ok!"
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Lets look at the french anthenm to see how unxenophobic france is..
Fatherland... Check..
Evil foreign cohorts.. Check...
More fatherland.. Check..
Foreign Mercenary phalanxes... check!!!
Frenchmen, as magnanimous warriors... Uhhm, ok.. Check!
Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
"I don't really like the Marseillaise, a bit "over patriotic" for me."
You hate your own anthem for being patriotic???
What other one would you have?
"France is my country and it's just ok!" [/B]
LOL Just determined to take on the french today aren't we?
Pick one dogma and stick with it is my suggestion...
Tronsky
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
"I don't really like the Marseillaise, a bit "over patriotic" for me."
You hate your own anthem for being patriotic???
What other one would you have?
"France is my country and it's just ok!"
Hmmm ?
How can "I don't really like my anthem" be equal to "I hate my anthem" ?
I think the current EU anthem : "Ode à la joie" by Ludwig van Beethoven (IX symphony) is better :
Joy, Oh ! divine scintillation
Sparkling from Elysium,
With a cheerful animation
Goddess, to thy shrine we come.
These our nations once divided
Now your magic spells unite,
Where your wing does beat around them
Brotherhood and love delight.
With a kiss bestowed on millions
Embraced in fraternity,
Let us build a world of union
And peace for all humanity
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http://www.boston.com/dailynews/243/world/France_says_no_to_kidnappers_d:.shtml
Apparently not - sorry to dissapoint all those narrow minded little bigots and their wannabe followers......hey lets forget about the people who are held hostage and are about to be killed, just spill your bile because France's politicians gave you some good advice and refused to be bullied into a pointless waste of a war.
Gosh double standards on the AH BBS - who would have thought!!
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Lets look at the french anthenm to see how unxenophobic france is..
Fatherland... Check..
Evil foreign cohorts.. Check...
More fatherland.. Check..
Foreign Mercenary phalanxes... check!!!
Frenchmen, as magnanimous warriors... Uhhm, ok.. Check!
You look to forget some parts are not in use anymore :
Evil foreign cohorts.. UNCheck...
Foreign Mercenary phalanxes... UNcheck!!!
Frenchmen, as magnanimous warriors... Uhhm, ok.. UNCheck!
see : http://french.about.com/library/weekly/aa071400ma.htm
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The first was in response to quiabe saying france was not xenophobic. I merely showed him that according to the anthem that they are. (he set the standard that anthems are indicative of national traits with his god remark about the US anthem)
Also tronski you conveinetly left out these words of mine after I commented on the french anthem.
"BTW none of this is neccesarily ment as a negative judgement agianst your country, its just an observation."
And I allready said i like the song, so its perfectly in keeping with my criricizm of straffo for him not liking it..
Simple. Or are you trying to pick a fight with me?
I'm generally aginst people not liking their anthems, its national tradition and culture and save revolution or other major change I feel it should be respected - like the flag.
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Ode an die Freude is the best piece of music ever written, I know the words by heart and I'd have it as humanity's anthem in a second. :)
But are yu sure France would accept a german language song as her national anthem?
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I clearly said the Iraqi terrorism is not really realted to this law. Didnt I? And that france shopuldnt give in. Didnt i?
So I really dontr get the point of your post.
But when it starts happening in france, well like I said it will be fun for all involved. France is full of poor unemployed north african muslims. It will be great fun to see them get all sensitive about their religious rights with so much free time on their hands... Should we have the battle of algiers fought on the streets and cafes of paris this time around?
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When I write "I don't really like" it don't imply I hate or don't respect my anthem, it just imply I don't find it up to date and corresponding to the French society as today.
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Originally posted by straffo
When I write "I don't really like" it don't imply I hate or don't respect my anthem, it just imply I don't find it up to date and corresponding to the French society as today.
Does it have to be? It represents the (temporarily interrupted) founding of modern france. Thats important enough imo.
What would you write in the modern anthem? About the ww2 resistance and liberation? The cold war? A new "multietnic" france - not really new anyway.
What would be the point?
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
No your anthem is just a bloodthirsty call for revenge and mass murder..
then
Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Lets look at the french anthenm to see how unxenophobic france is..
Fatherland... Check..
Evil foreign cohorts.. Check...
More fatherland.. Check..
Foreign Mercenary phalanxes... check!!!
Frenchmen, as magnanimous warriors... Uhhm, ok.. Check!
and later
Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
You hate your own anthem for being patriotic???
What other one would you have?
...
I'm generally aginst people not liking their anthems, its national tradition and culture and save revolution or other major change I feel it should be respected - like the flag.
...
Does it have to be? It represents the (temporarily interrupted) founding of modern france. Thats important enough imo.
Your could teach Kerry how to flip-flop...
"Anthem is call to murder but you have to like it because it's your country..." I mean, I know it's late and you're doing with the wits
God gave you, but you should try to stay coherent within the same thread.
Now go away. You're just trying to bash a country by using the fact that two peole may well be butchered within the next few hours.
Nice agenda.
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
The first was in response to quiabe saying france was not xenophobic. I merely showed him that according to the anthem that they are. (he set the standard that anthems are indicative of national traits with his god remark about the US anthem)
Also tronski you conveinetly left out these words of mine after I commented on the french anthem.
"BTW none of this is neccesarily ment as a negative judgement agianst your country, its just an observation."
And I allready said i like the song, so its perfectly in keeping with my criricizm of straffo for him not liking it..
Simple. Or are you trying to pick a fight with me?
I'm generally aginst people not liking their anthems, its national tradition and culture and save revolution or other major change I feel it should be respected - like the flag.
As deSelys as already pointed out at one stage your sledging the french national anthem, pointing it out in detail it spells out all which is evil with the "terrible xenophobic french govt." , then decideing to take issue with Straffo for not being patriotic enough because he was not particularly enthralled with it ...
My point was perhaps you should pick to one side of an argument and stick to it, but I guess what I should have stated the obvious...your only point in this discussion is to pretty much denounce anything French...after all I don't have to try to pick a fight - hardly, your doing a pretty good job yourself it seems
Your disclaimer wasn't included because it wasn't even in the two pieces of diatribe I quoted, and because it's obviously a falsehood.
Tronsky
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It is bloodthirsty. It does call for revenge. Read the words of the song, its obvious. Xenophobic too.
Those are facts about the song, and its still a great and important song in history.. And I like it.
Too bad that you need to see things in a binary way.
Also I'm clearly on record here that these kidnappings reeally arent about the french law and that the french must not give in.
Still i thinkl the law is stupid and that it will cause trouble in the future, especially considering frances large, poor and now perhaps publicly marginalized muslim population. I have a right to criticize laws I think are unproductive.
I never mentioned the two men in danger, only you did. They are innocent men caught up in a tragedy unrelated to their nations laws. I find it sickening that you felt the need to bring their peril into this argument in order to win a point aginst me. Not to mention that you even had to construct a straw man argument to do it.
Perhaps you should go away, your agenda based soloely on personal attacks on me in pointless.
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So lets see my stating that I like the french anthem is denouncing it, ok trotsky...
Man thats some funny stuff.
Also in your twisted thinking are anthems supposed to be unpatriotic?
Finally did it escape your observation taht I was arguing with two different people who were expressing two different sentiments.
Quiabe on one hand was saying the French arent xenophobic. Then because he implied anthems were indicative of natinal traits I simply pointed out verses in his anthem that were clearly xenophobic. And then I clearly stated that none of that was a negative judgment on the nation, merely an observation that counters his statement. I added that I like song, and we agrred on that.
Straffo (a different individual from Quiabe) was sayinng he disliked his anthem for being too patriotic. I pointed put that I feel its an important patriotic song in french history that should be respected. And again added that I like the song.
So once again for the very very slow among us:
I like song. (very simply worded for you guys)
It IS obviously a bloodthirsty, xenophobic, revenge filled revolutinary song. But still a very good one and a very historically important one for france. And it should be their anthem.
Feel free to resume your mindless personal attacks at this time.
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August 19, 2003
Islamic headgear is not essential (http://www.townhall.com/columnists/GuestColumns/Taheri20030819.shtml)[/url]
By Amir Taheri
France's Prime Minister Jean-Pierre Raffarin has just appointed a committee to draft a law to ban the Islamist hijab (headgear) in state-owned establishments, including schools and hospitals. The decision has drawn fire from the French "church" of Islam, an organisation created by Raffarin's government last spring.
Germany is facing its hijab problem with a number of Islamist organisations suing federal and state authorities for "religious discrimination" because of bans imposed on the controversial headgear.
In the United States several Muslim women are suing airport security firms for having violated their first amendment rights by asking them to take off their hijab during routine searches of passengers.
All these and other cases are based on the claim that the controversial headgear is an essential part of the Muslim faith and that attempts at banning it constitute an attack on Islam.
That claim is totally false. The headgear in question has nothing to do with Islam as a religion. It is not sanctioned anywhere in the Koran, the fundamental text of Islam, or the hadith (traditions) attributed to the Prophet.
This headgear was invented in the early 1970s by Mussa Sadr, an Iranian mullah who had won the leadership of the Lebanese Shiite community.
In an interview in 1975 in Beirut, Sadr told this writer that the hijab he had invented was inspired by the headgear of Lebanese Catholic nuns, itself inspired by that of Christian women in classical Western paintings. (A casual visit to the National Gallery in London, the Metropolitan Museum in New York, or the Louvres in Paris, would reveal the original of the neo-Islamist hijab in numerous paintings depicting Virgin Mary and other female figures from the Old and New Testament.)
Sadr's idea was that, by wearing the headgear, Shiite women would be clearly marked out, and thus spared sexual harassment, and rape, by Yasser Arafat's Palestinian gunmen who at the time controlled southern Lebanon.
Sadr's neo-hijab made its first appearance in Iran in 1977 as a symbol of Islamist-Marxist opposition to the Shah's regime. When the mullahs seized power in Tehran in 1979, the number of women wearing the hijab exploded into tens of thousands.
In 1981, Abol-Hassan Bani-Sadr, the first president of the Islamic Republic, announced that "scientific research had shown that women's hair emitted rays that drove men insane" (sic). To protect the public, the new Islamist regime passed a law in 1982 making the hijab mandatory for females aged above six, regardless of religious faith. Violating the hijab code was made punishable by 100 lashes of the cane and six months imprisonment.
By the mid-1980s a form of hijab never seen in Islam before the 1970s had become standard gear for millions of women all over the world, including Europe and America.
Some younger Muslims women, especially Western converts, were duped into believing that the neo-hijab was an essential part of the faith. (Katherine Bullock, a Canadian, so loved the idea of covering her hair that she converted to Islam while studying the hijab.)
The garb is designed to promote gender Apartheid. It covers the woman's ears so that she does not hear things properly. Styled like a hood, it prevents the woman from having full vision of her surroundings. It also underlines the concept of woman as object, all wrapped up and marked out.
Muslim women, like women in all societies, had covered their head with a variety of gears over the centuries. These had such names as lachak, chador, rusari, rubandeh, chaqchur, maqne'a, and picheh among others.
All had tribal, ethnic and generally folkloric origins and were never associated with religion. (In Senegal, Muslim women wear a colourful headgear against the sun, while working in the fields, but go topless.)
Muslim women could easily check the fraudulent nature of the neo-Islamist hijab by leafing through their family albums. They will not find the picture of a single female ancestor of theirs who wore the cursed headgear now marketed as an absolute "must" of Islam.
This fake Islamic hijab is nothing but a political prop, a weapon of visual terrorism. It is the symbol of a totalitarian ideology inspired more by Nazism and Communism than by Islam. It is as symbolic of Islam as the Mao uniform was of Chinese civilisation. It is used as a means of exerting pressure on Muslim women who do not wear it because they do not share the sick ideology behind it. It is a sign of support for extremists who wish to impose their creed, first on Muslims, and then on the entire world through psychological pressure, violence, terror, and, ultimately, war. The tragedy is that many of those who wear it are not aware of its implications. They do so because they have been brainwashed into believing that a woman cannot be a "good Muslim" without covering her head with the Sadr-designed hijab.
Even today, less than one per cent of Muslim women wear the hijab that has bewitched some Western liberals as a symbol of multicultural diversity.
The hijab debate in Europe and the US comes at a time that the controversial headgear is seriously questioned in Iran, the only country to impose it by law.
Last year the Islamist regime authorised a number of girl colleges in Tehran to allow students to discard the hijab while inside school buildings. The experiment was launched after a government study identified the hijab as the cause of "widespread depression and falling academic standards" and even suicide among teen-age girls.
The Ministry of Education in Tehran has just announced that the experiment will be extended to other girls schools next month when the new academic year begins. Schools where the hijab was discarded have shown "real improvements" in academic standards reflected in a 30 per cent rise in the number of students obtaining the highest grades.
Meanwhile, several woman members of the Iranian Islamic Majlis (parliament) are preparing a draft to raise the legal age for wearing the hijab from six to 12, thus sparing millions of children the trauma of having their heads covered.
Another sign that the Islamic Republic may be softening its position on hijab is a recent decision to allow the employees of state-owned companies outside Iran to discard the hijab. (The new rule has enabled hundreds of women, working for Iran-owned companies in Paris, London, and other European capitals, for example, to go to work without the cursed hijab.)
The delicious irony of militant Islamists asking "Zionist-Crusader" courts in France, Germany and the United States to decide what is "Islamic" and what is not, will not be missed. The judges and the juries who will be asked to decide the cases should know that hey are dealing not with Islam, which is a religious faith, but with Islamism, which is a political doctrine.
The hijab-wearing militants have a right to promote their political ideology. But they have no right to speak in the name of Islam.
Amir Taheri is an Iranian journalist and author of 10 books on the Middle East and Islam. He can be reached through http://www.benadorassociates.com.
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Straffo (a different individual from Quiabe) was sayinng he disliked his anthem for being too patriotic. I pointed put that I feel its an important patriotic song in french history that should be respected. And again added that I like the song.
I expressed myself badly again I think , when I wrote "over patriotic" I did mean : trop sanguinaire.
To take your own words : bloodthirsty, xenophobic, revenge filled revolutinary song.
It's more a "chant de guerre" than a anthem IMO
Especially because the last part Is never singed :
Que l'amitié, que la patrie
Fassent l'objet de tous nos vœux
Ayons toujours l'âme nourrie
Des feux qu'ils inspirent tous deux [bis]
Soyons unis, tout est possible,
Nos vils ennemis tomberont
Alors les Français cesseront
De chanter ce refrain terrible :
Aux armes, citoyens
Formez vos bataillons...
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Great article, thanks Badger!
Still the French law is wrong to ban religios expression in school and public facilities.
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Originally posted by straffo
I expressed myself badly again I think , when I wrote "over patriotic" I did mean : trop sanguinaire.
To take your own words : bloodthirsty, xenophobic, revenge filled revolutinary song.
It's more a "chant de guerre" than a anthem IMO
Especially because the last part Is never singed :
Que l'amitié, que la patrie
Fassent l'objet de tous nos vœux
Ayons toujours l'âme nourrie
Des feux qu'ils inspirent tous deux [bis]
Soyons unis, tout est possible,
Nos vils ennemis tomberont
Alors les Français cesseront
De chanter ce refrain terrible :
Aux armes, citoyens
Formez vos bataillons...
Of course its a war song, it was the song of your revolution. Still I feel it signifies France and a vital part of your history.
What better anthemn can you have?
Imagine writing a new one, what would you do? Get together a comitee of experts to custom design a tame new song that offends nobody and ultimately stands for nothing because it is artifical and fake?
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What company ?
What violation ?
France and germany were buying oil from Iraq during the sanctions. They were dealing with Saddam to get oil dirt cheap. Even at such a low price, billions went to Saddam and his cronies every month. Not a single penny was spent on the people.
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Great article, thanks Badger!
Still the French law is wrong to ban religios expression in school and public facilities.
Except in Alsace (and perhaps Lorraine) where the German law still partially apply ,there is a crucifix in each classroom and where the church a subsided by the state.
I don't think we need another anthem especially for a PC version.
Originally posted by lasersailor184
France and germany were buying oil from Iraq during the sanctions.
Violating the sanction ?
No.
They were dealing with Saddam to get oil dirt cheap. Even at such a low price, billions went to Saddam and his cronies every month. Not a single penny was spent on the people. [/B]
Personnally I don't care at all.
The cheaper oil the better it is.
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I don't give a cr*p about nations or national anthems... Grun must think I'm a bad person now, i think i'll go weep in a corner :(
Straffo, please continue eating babies, *they* need someone to blame...
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Originally posted by Saintaw
I don't give a cr*p about nations or national anthems...
So you would would be happy if belgium was absorbed by france or germany?
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Originally posted by straffo
I don't think we need another anthem especially for a PC version.
Awesome! You arent fully comfortable with the words of the anthem but respect it and wouldnt want it changed. I cant disagree with that in any way.
you French type person! :)
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As long as it's done "economicaly" (sp?) I don't care. I've lived in different countries for all my life. The only things that attach me to Belgium are the friends I have there (and beer)... other than that, it's just a piece of land like anywhere else.
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just keep the same nationalistic thrust without the explicit call to a 'xenophobic' counter attack.
It's the same thing for every country, each has its ideals and will uphold and defend them, else why have national borders or any national identity?
It's the same as biological immune systems.
What constitutes foreign and domestic is a separate matter.
re: keeping up with the nuclear tests, what about the US withdrawing from the Kyoto environment pact, or the resumption of anti-personel mine use?
Keep in mind the spread of political and philosophical perspectives is certainly much wider in France than in the US. Consequently, just about every person living in France is in disagreement with at least a considerable part of the state the country is in.
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Personnally I don't care at all.
The cheaper oil the better it is.
Just want everyone to see this. He's saying that it's alright for Saddam to kill millions, as long as France gets cheap oil.
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lol you are a treat
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Originally posted by Saintaw
As long as it's done "economicaly" (sp?) I don't care. I've lived in different countries for all my life. The only things that attach me to Belgium are the friends I have there (and beer)... other than that, it's just a piece of land like anywhere else.
So if Al Qaeda flew airliners into Belgioums largest buildings and devoted itself to killing belgians around the world you wouldnt be particularly upset? It would be just the same as if they did it to ghana or china or any random country. Assuming of course none of your friends were killed.
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
So if Al Qaeda flew airliners into Belgioums largest buildings and devoted itself to killing belgians around the world you wouldnt be particularly upset? It would be just the same as if they did it to ghana or china or any random country. Assuming of course none of your friends were killed.
so I think most people in the world got upset about the twin towers happening, it was terrible.
And so it will if somone does it in Belgium,France, Norway, Sweden and so on.
Thingy is that Europe is more used to terror, war and ****e than other parts of the world and maybe got a little bit tired of it.
That does not mean we give up but think a little before action.
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
So if Al Qaeda flew airliners into Belgioums largest buildings and devoted itself to killing belgians around the world you wouldnt be particularly upset? It would be just the same as if they did it to ghana or china or any random country. Assuming of course none of your friends were killed.
I like the comparaison between Ghana and Belgium ... afterall they both live in huts :D
Ps: lasersailor184 having trouble detection provocation lately ?
muhahaha :p
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
So if Al Qaeda flew airliners into Belgioums largest buildings and devoted itself to killing belgians around the world you wouldnt be particularly upset? It would be just the same as if they did it to ghana or china or any random country. Assuming of course none of your friends were killed.
Yes/No
I was apaled when it happend in NYC, because of the human lives lost, not because they were american, portugese or vanuatuese.
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I thought this was a post about cool caves in France. I should have known better.
I've seen Saw drink beer, and I can confirm that he likes Belgium beer. But I must also confirm that he is a lightweight and I had to carry him around Brussels!!
Straffo may very well eat babies, but I can't confirm that, as his better half wouldn't let him come to Brussels to drink beer with us!! :p
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Originally posted by airguard
so I think most people in the world got upset about the twin towers happening, it was terrible.
And so it will if somone does it in Belgium,France, Norway, Sweden and so on.
Thingy is that Europe is more used to terror, war and ****e than other parts of the world and maybe got a little bit tired of it.
That does not mean we give up but think a little before action.
True. But its obvious that a random citizen of New York is likely to take 911 more personally than a random citizen of Antwerp. Thats what I was getting at in my question to saw.
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Stringer... you git lol!
Get my "lightweight" word for granted: You "will" stagger back to your hotel next time :p
Grun, yes, I can agree with that, however you should not think that because this happened in NYC that poeple around the world were not affected by it. I still shiver when I think about some images we all saw. i think most of us do.
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Our national anthem does not contain the word "god".
Oh, say can you see, by the dawn's early light,
What so proudly we hailed at the twilight's last gleaming?
Whose broad stripes and bright stars, through the perilous fight,
O'er the ramparts we watched, were so gallantly streaming?
And the rockets' red glare, the bombs bursting in air,
Gave proof through the night that our flag was still there.
O say, does that star-spangled banner yet wave
O'er the land of the free and the home of the brave?
The complete song "The Star Spangled Banner" or "The Defense of Fort McHenry" from which it is taken does contain the word "God", but I hardly think it was written as a National Anthem. I wonder how many nations have songs as National Anthems that weren't written specifically as one.
This thread is a bit funny, but just too pathetic to get into. Grun has done nothing here that the same French citizens have been doing for the last 4 years on this BBS. I actually laughed out loud when one of them said "that's the law, but that's not how all French think". I find that particularly funny since it's been the same handfull of individuals that seemingly know how all Americans think and ever fail to realize that the excuses they use to dismiss are actually faults they use to condemn. The sad thing is, I don't really think that's what Grun was trying to drive at.
Oh well... let's keep the country bashing going. This might be the new and improved O'Club, but that doesn't mean we're not about a good ol "let's piss on the other country" debate. Too bad it's not a couple of Canadians being held hostage or grun could have had some real fun.
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
True. But its obvious that a random citizen of New York is likely to take 911 more personally than a random citizen of Antwerp.
Probably true, but in my own case pretty false, there is still in my little twisted brain a place for all who lost their lives on 911.
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Ok when it comes to the first post here, I got one little quest ?
How would it be if we Europeans had to imigrate to lets say Iran ?
Would our womans have to be dressed like their or could they go swimming public in tanga ?
would we be able to build religious places with goverment finacial support ?
Would we have our own religion in school as a choosen theme ?
would we be able to eat pork.
would we be able to drink whine to our dinner ?
just sling tough !
think the French doing alreight I do
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Originally posted by airguard
Ok when it comes to the first post here, I got one little quest ?
How would it be if we Europeans had to imigrate to lets say Iran ?
Would our womans have to be dressed like their or could they go swimming public in tanga ?
would we be able to build religious places with goverment finacial support ?
Would we have our own religion in school as a choosen theme ?
would we be able to eat pork.
would we be able to drink whine to our dinner ?
just sling tough !
So you are saying that France or more broadly Europe has the same or should have the same religious freedom of expresion and tolerance standards as that of Iran - a nation run by more or less a tiny group of fascist religious extremist mullahs?
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Let's support the mini-skirts market in Iran! vote for Guardy!!!
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I'm more for the mini scirts Grun :)
No I dont Grunherz, and you did understood me wrong I just said if it was a AS IF situation.
that means in my eye we would not be able to live there for 1 minute.
(did you ever read the first post ?)
Edit : I LOVE YOU SAWMAN :) )
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Originally posted by Stringer
I thought this was a post about cool caves in France. I should have known better.
I've seen Saw drink beer, and I can confirm that he likes Belgium beer. But I must also confirm that he is a lightweight and I had to carry him around Brussels!!
Straffo may very well eat babies, but I can't confirm that, as his better half wouldn't let him come to Brussels to drink beer with us!! :p
The next time all this beer drinking in Brussels takes place could you please make sure that the invites are sent out.....I like Brussels, Beer and am more than prepared to carry people around if that what it takes....
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Yea but you are comparing Iran's tradition of religious intolerance as an excuse for France's.
But yes lets start a religion where all good looking women must wear mini skirts. I defy the french to ban this in thier universities...
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_Schadenfreude_, no need to wait for Stringer, we can "practice" before he comes visit again :D
Stringer, when are you guys comming over again? I need to know a bit in advance, so I can come down.
GRUN, trust me, they are in no shortage of mini skirts in the south of France, at least they were not last time I was there!
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Yea but you are comparing Iran's tradition of religious intolerance as an excuse for France's.
But yes lets start a religion where all good looking women must wear mini skirts. I defy the french to ban this in thier universities...
Your pretty right there I did a comparing but it have never ever been tested :)
And I like the bikini religion (I can maybe be the masterchief of it ? :D)
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Schad,
You got it.
Saw,
Not sure yet, but I'll be sure to give you plenty of notice. I'm hoping for sometime this fall, but we'll have to wait and see.