Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Eagler on August 30, 2004, 12:58:41 PM
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Judge Revokes Partial-Birth Abortion Ban (http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=519&ncid=519&e=2&u=/ap/20040827/ap_on_re_us/abortion_lawsuits_13)
The ban, which President Clinton twice vetoed.....
The law, signed last November, banned a procedure known to doctors as intact dilation and extraction and called partial-birth abortion by abortion foes. The fetus is partially removed from the womb, and the skull is punctured or crushed.
"We were on pins and needles on this one," said Gloria Feldt, president of Planned Parenthood....
Louise Melling, director of the ACLU's Reproductive Freedom Project, said her group was thrilled by the ruling.
"thrilled"??????
God help us all....
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Originally posted by Eagler
Louise Melling, director of the ACLU's Reproductive Freedom Project, said her group was thrilled by the ruling.
HOORAY FOR MURDER!!! :rolleyes:
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ug...how do crazies like that get onto a judges stand?
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FOX News
July 23, 1998
"[Clinton] and many abortion-rights supporters in Congress favor an exception in cases in which the woman's health would be jeopardized if the pregnancy were carried to term."
Seems resonable to me.
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`Sec. 1531.
Subsection (a) Any physician who, in or affecting interstate or foreign commerce, knowingly performs a partial-birth abortion and thereby kills a human fetus shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than 2 years, or both. This subsection does not apply to a partial-birth abortion that is necessary to save the life of a mother whose life is endangered by a physical disorder, physical illness, or physical injury, including a life-endangering physical condition caused by or arising from the pregnancy itself. This subsection takes effect 1 day after the enactment.
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I care so much about someone else's life. Really, I care THIS much.
-SW
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unconstitutional because it does not contain an exception to protect a woman's health, something the Supreme Court said is required in laws prohibiting types of abortion.
So rewrite the law to contain the correct verbage and protections and repass it?
IKON
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Originally posted by vorticon
ug...how do crazies like that get onto a judges stand?
(http://us.news2.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/ap/20040829/capt.tjs10208291606.cvn_protests_tjs102.jpg)
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Originally posted by Eagler
Judge Revokes Partial-Birth Abortion Ban (http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=519&ncid=519&e=2&u=/ap/20040827/ap_on_re_us/abortion_lawsuits_13)
(http://http://us.news2.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/ap/20040826/capt.ny12908261736.abortion_lawsuit_judge_ny129.jpg)
The ban, which President Clinton twice vetoed.....
The law, signed last November, banned a procedure known to doctors as intact dilation and extraction and called partial-birth abortion by abortion foes. The fetus is partially removed from the womb, and the skull is punctured or crushed.
"We were on pins and needles on this one," said Gloria Feldt, president of Planned Parenthood....
Louise Melling, director of the ACLU's Reproductive Freedom Project, said her group was thrilled by the ruling.
"thrilled"??????
God help us all....
Hate to break it to you - there is no "god"
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Well, that sure convinced me, Schaden!
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Originally posted by _Schadenfreude_
Hate to break it to you - there is no "god"
for me, that is not the case
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Originally posted by _Schadenfreude_
Hate to break it to you - there is no "god"
Did that make it easier?
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There is no provision to protect the mother's HEALTH, only to protect her LIFE. That is the issue.
Seems simple to me.
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Originally posted by midnight Target
There is no provision to protect the mother's HEALTH, only to protect her LIFE. That is the issue.
Seems simple to me.
What sort of health protection do you want? I see that as potentially a pretty much carte blanche thing, health is extremply broad...
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Why is that?
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Originally posted by midnight Target
Why is that?
For one, I can quickly see unscrupulous doctors being very lenient as to what they would be willing to consider a health issue in order to have more patients. Remember that an abortion practioner earns part or all of his or her living from this procedure and the temptation to broaden ones cusyomer base is rather natural for all busineses. A loose and unspecific health provision may encourage such actions.
BTW as a disclaimer:
I'm not comfortable abortion personally. But from a policy perspective I think they should be legal during the first few months and illegal thereafter with a strong exemption for for mother's health and life. Further, I think that sex education and absitance should both be taught.
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because having less money to throw around and the stress of having a child hurts your health, or it could be interpreted that way by a doctor...though why anyone would choose to have or do an abortion that way in the first place should be in a straight jacket.
as far as abortions go im generally in agreement with grunherz stance.
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I get it now.. Its bad and evil to kill an unborn child for any reason, but its ok to torture, kill, and maim suspected terrorist or just kill/maim the average Iraqi with a cause.. I get it now!! Conservative morals, clearly the path to take!
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Originally posted by TheDudeDVant
I get it now.. Its bad and evil to kill an unborn child for any reason, but its ok to torture, kill, and maim suspected terrorist or just kill/maim the average Iraqi with a cause.. I get it now!! Conservative morals, clearly the path to take!
So to liberals unborn american children are morally equivalent to foreign terrorists...
Got it!
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They're suspects because they haven't been found guilty.
You used to be so smert Grun, I think proclaiming yourself a conservative has caused your brain to dribble out your nose.
-SW
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Originally posted by AKS\/\/ulfe
They're suspects because they haven't been found guilty.
You used to be so smert Grun, I think proclaiming yourself a conservative has caused your brain to dribble out your nose.
-SW
Yea and I suppose you think unborn americam babies are morally equivalent to terrorists...
Actually screw that. Do me a favor go say what dude said out in the street, try to convince people with his argumet..
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Why does it have to be "americam" babies? Aren't all unborn babies morally equivalent? You're a bigot. Go spread your hate somewhere else Stalin, there aren't any Jews here Hitler.
-SW
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Yea and I suppose you think unborn americam babies are morally equivalent to terrorists...
Actually screw that. Do me a favor go say what dude said out in the street, try to convince people with his argumet..
Grunherz, i totally see your argument.. Why can you not see the fundemental hyprocrasy of this neo-con stance? Life is life and no life is worth more than another life.
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What did you really expect the Supreme Court to say? This is the exact same aproach as anti-gun ownership proponents are taking. Get your foot in the door then try for bigger and better things. I don't like the decision and am not a supporter of abortion, but what say we all stop playing the "this is shocking" game to promote ourselves.
DOH! Not an SC decision
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MT
you are playing with words
the clause is there, no doc would risk the lawsuit if he failed to protect the mother
the fact is the kill the baby group does not want a method removed from their gruesome bag of tricks with which they can squash that "fetus" bug before they actually have to feed/cloth/raise it .... it might cramp the little ladies lifestyle - ya know...
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Originally posted by TheDudeDVant
I get it now.. Its bad and evil to kill an unborn child for any reason,
but its ok to torture, kill, and maim suspected terrorist
or just kill/maim the average Iraqi with a cause..
So we have 3 statements for comparsion, babies to terrorists and Iraqis.
1) Yes it is OK to torture a suspected terrorist for information - thats established US practice. Yes it is OK to maim and kill suspected terrorists. What do you think was going on when we bombed afghanistan freom 30,000 feet? Or do you oppose that too?
2) Kill an average Iraqi with a cause. This can be interpreted in 2 ways.
Americans killing Iraqis with cause, as in with justification. Well this is obviously acceptable unless you excepect that US troops dont defend themselves when under fire.
The other possible interpretation is Americans killing Iraquis that have a cause, or a mission. This must refer to the insurgency, in which case I suppose dude is saying that US soldiers are wrong to fight the insurgents. Odd, but OK - its his opinion..
In any case none of these scenarios is comporable to an unborn american baby. I only hope dude realizes the stupidity of that argument and stops using it to support his stance.
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Originally posted by midnight Target
Seems simple to me.
...The fetus is partially removed from the womb, and the skull is punctured or crushed....
MURDER, simple to me too.
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Originally posted by AKS\/\/ulfe
Why does it have to be "americam" babies? Aren't all unborn babies morally equivalent? You're a bigot. Go spread your hate somewhere else Stalin, there aren't any Jews here Hitler.
-SW
Well since we're in america here discussing US abortion law.... But nooo.. Well nice try though.
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Rip and pastage:
Why Are D&X Procedures Performed?
This is a topic that is rarely discussed during public debates:
1st Trimester: D&Xs are not performed during the first three months of pregnancy, because there are better ways to perform abortions. There is no need to follow a D&X procedure, because the fetus' head quite small at this stage of gestation and can be quite easily removed from the woman's uterus.
2nd Trimester: D&Xs are very rarely performed in the late second trimester at a time in the pregnancy before the fetus is viable. These, like most abortions, are performed for a variety of reasons, including: She is not ready to have a baby for whatever reason and has delayed her decision to have an abortion into the second trimester. As mentioned above, 90% of abortions are done in the first trimester.
-There are mental or physical health problems related to the pregnancy.
-The fetus has been found to be dead, badly malformed, or suffering from a very serious genetic defect. This is often only detectable late in the second trimester.
3rd Trimester: They are also very rarely performed in late pregnancy. The most common justifications at that time are: The fetus is dead.
-The fetus is alive, but continued pregnancy would place the woman's life in severe danger.
-The fetus is alive, but continued pregnancy would grievously damage the woman's health and/or disable her.
-The fetus is so malformed that it can never gain consciousness and will die shortly after birth. Many which fall into this category have developed a very severe form of hydrocephalus.
source (http://www.religioustolerance.org/abo_pba1.htm)
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Originally posted by TheDudeDVant
Life is life and no life is worth more than another life.
right ... someone who has threw away his life by murdering/raping say a 10 year old is the same as a baby who has not taken his/her 1st breath yet ... right
what drugs do you guys take these days anyways? must be some really strong stuff as you can't be sober and think that way ...
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Originally posted by TheDudeDVant
Grunherz, i totally see your argument.. Why can you not see the fundemental hyprocrasy of this neo-con stance? Life is life and no life is worth more than another life.
But the mothers life is worth more than the baby's?
For example in the case of current abortion law one is not only talking about a mother's physical life. Some of the reasons women get abortions is to enhance their social, financial and personal "lives" - all the expense of the very physical lives of their unborn children.
Thats quite a problem with your argument wouldnt you say?
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wow...rereading the entire discussion from my last post, still doesnt make any sense at all :confused: since we all seem to a agree that partial birth abortions should'nt be done unless there is a direct risk to the mother.
next people will be telling me every time i...im killing a potential baby...
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
But the mothers life is worth more than the baby's?
Absolutely.
What if the mother has children already? Is it okay for her to die or severely disable herself trying to deliver another? Then what happens to the existing children?
This is the problem with the law. Laws are black and white. There is no allowance for exceptions or circumstances and this is why the courts have struck down the ban.
Good on them.
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Oh I agree.
But I was responding to this statement made by a liberal abortion supporter who mentioned as an example of conservative hypocricy.
"Life is life and no life is worth more than another life."
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Just a thought on relative value...
Many mothers would give up their life to save thier children, and many have. They have valued their children's lives more than their own..
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The people in power preaching these morals cannot possibly be holy in their own god's eyes.. The way I see it our government has no box to stand on to preach morals to the sheep.. To each his own..
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BTW... it's amazing how many people b-line right for the extremes on this topic.
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Originally posted by JBA
...The fetus is partially removed from the womb, and the skull is punctured or crushed....
MURDER, simple to me too.
I don't know how any doctor could even stomach such a thing..the picture in my mind of that ihas made me sick to my stomach. Especially as the little person gets further along and really starts looking like a baby. I hope anyone who has had this done or gets this done and the people that provide this service all burn in hell.
You would have to be evil to provide this service!
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Originally posted by TheDudeDVant
Even though our president defied a world to goto war and kill 10s of thousands on unjust reasons,
Can you direct me to a prewar quote from Chiraq, Schroeder, Putin or some other world leader other than Saddam who said something like, "Iraq has completely divested itself of WMD's"
I haven't found one yet.
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So quick to go to war? Ahh yes the decade long US rush to another war with Saddam.
And at the risk of another tangent here what do you make of John Kerry's current* stance that he would have had the war even if he knew there were no WMD? He would support killing all those peopole even without the WMD..
*will change with new polls and focus groups
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It's not murder, the SCOTUS just reaffirmed that. Murder is an illegal killing. Partial birth abortions or intact dilation and extractions aren't illegal, ergo not murder.
Geez louise and how did I learn this,
Thrawn: Executions are murder and that's against the ten commandmants!
Christian-dude-on-the-BBS: No it isn't, murder is an illegal killing and executions are legal, ergo it's not murder and therefore not against the ten commandments.
Thrawn: Oh...I R TARD.
Christian-dude-on-the-BBS: Yes, yes you are, but Jesus loves you any way...tard.
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Originally posted by Coolridr
I don't know how any doctor could even stomach such a thing..the picture in my mind of that ihas made me sick to my stomach. Especially as the little person gets further along and really starts looking like a baby. I hope anyone who has had this done or gets this done and the people that provide this service all burn in hell.
You have to be evil to be able to perform such an act.
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Originally posted by Holden McGroin
Just a thought on relative value...
Many mothers would give up their life to save thier children, and many have. They have valued their children's lives more than their own..
Interesting... have had a few discussions with parents about priorities. My wife and I believe that our marriage is more important than our children. We must protect it. We must nurture it and in doing so, we will provide the best environment for our children.
It's never black and white... granted... I might indeed give my life to save one of my children. That is... unless I start thinking about the affect it might have on ALL of them. Hopefully, if the moment ever occurs, I'll have enough time to choose what is best.
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Let me see if I read dude right. Kill babies but not terrorists...ooooooooookk.
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The liberal national security dilemma, who is the bigger threat to America?
(http://www.spiegel.de/img/0,1020,258944,00.jpg)
OR:
(http://www.savebabies.org/images/babies-1.jpg)
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(http://www.filmfodder.com/movies/reviews/alien/images/alien.jpg)
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Originally posted by Holden McGroin
Can you direct me to a prewar quote from Chiraq, Schroeder, Putin or some other world leader other than Saddam who said something like, "Iraq has completely divested itself of WMD's"
I haven't found one yet.
Well I dunno, how about you direct me to the quote from our world order, um whats it called.. umm.. umm.. o yea, the united nations authorizing us to goto war with Iraqi because of an immediate threat that Iraqi was?
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what if your wife was raped and got pregnant ?
still the same issue ?
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Originally posted by Sandman
(http://www.filmfodder.com/movies/reviews/alien/images/alien.jpg)
Perfect! Is that one of NOW's or Planned Parnthood's new abortion posters?
"Exterminate that little sucker before IT bursts out of you and kills your social life!"
:D
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Originally posted by Apache
Let me see if I read dude right. Kill babies but not terrorists...ooooooooookk.
No, clearly its kill terrorist and not babies, OK?!!
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Originally posted by airguard
what if your wife was raped and got pregnant ?
still the same issue ?
which issue?
abortion or late term abortion?
you gonna sit around and wait 8 months before you do something about it?
since you brought up the famous "abortion excuse", please provide the percent of abortions which are performed for the reason you stated ......
real reason ... can you say "birth control" !!!
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Originally posted by TheDudeDVant
No, clearly its kill terrorist and not babies, OK?!!
Now we're talking! Much better. :D
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Originally posted by Coolridr
I don't know how any doctor could even stomach such a thing..the picture in my mind of that ihas made me sick to my stomach. Especially as the little person gets further along and really starts looking like a baby. I hope anyone who has had this done or gets this done and the people that provide this service all burn in hell.
You have to be evil to provide such a service!
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Perfect! Is that one of NOW's or Planned Parnthood's new abortion posters?
"Exterminate that little sucker before it bursts out of you and kills your social life!"
:D
A triple! Post potato!
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In-freaking-credible
Follow now....
Partial Birth abortions are a great example of a Straw Man. Unfortunately they are very rare in reality accounting for (last I checked) about .02% of all abortions, and 99.9% of these are done to save the life or health of the mother. I'd be all for making that 100%.
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Originally posted by Coolridr
I don't know how any doctor could even stomach such a thing..the picture in my mind of that ihas made me sick to my stomach. Especially as the little person gets further along and really starts looking like a baby. I hope anyone who has had this done or gets this done and the people that provide this service all burn in hell.
You would have to be evil to provide this service!
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Originally posted by midnight Target
In-freaking-credible
Follow now....
Partial Birth abortions are a great example of a Straw Man. Unfortunately they are very rare in reality accounting for (last I checked) about .02% of all abortions, and 99.9% of these are done to save the life or health of the mother. I'd be all for making that 100%.
One more step on the long journey to 10,000 posts with no content whatsoever.
(Me... not MT). :aok
Hiya Coolridr.
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OMG! I broke 10k and didn't notice!
ummm, hooray.
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Just trying to get my point across:D
You guys are posting toooo fast on this issue.:D
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Originally posted by Coolridr
Just trying to get my point across:D
You guys are posting toooo fast on this issue.:D
Ever watch Traum ER on television? The surgeons don't strike me as particularly human. ;)
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Originally posted by midnight Target
OMG! I broke 10k and didn't notice!
ummm, hooray.
Yea I told you a while ago and you didnt see. :( Congrats!
Almost there myself, only a france thread two away from the big 10K!!!
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Originally posted by midnight Target
In-freaking-credible
Follow now....
Partial Birth abortions are a great example of a Straw Man. Unfortunately they are very rare in reality accounting for (last I checked) about .02% of all abortions, and 99.9% of these are done to save the life or health of the mother. I'd be all for making that 100%.
So, if your numbers are correct, then out of all abortions, partial birth abortions for reasons other than the health of the mother or fetus account for .000002%
If that's true, then the law is pretty pointless.
-edit- Ah speels guder thun U
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Originally posted by SOB
If that's true, then they law is pretty pointless.
Ladies and gentlemen, we have a winner!
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You got it.
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Originally posted by midnight Target
Yea SOB, you go girl!
:D
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OH NO YOU DI'ANT!