Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Flathat on October 29, 1999, 02:10:00 PM
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When we all first began flying 0.33, there was a lot of complaining about the 4.7-5G onset of blackout. Now I know this is beta and nearly everything is in flux, but perhaps here is where HTC could implement an effect that would benefit "flying to live."
I'm not a programmer so I don't know whether coding this would be easy, challenging, problematic or whaddya nuts or something?, but here it is anyway.
Perhaps after landing a certain number of sorties (emphasis on landing), your G tolerance would go up. Landing kills could take you up the "G ladder" more quickly.
Seems to me that someone who could see clearly at 7G would have an advantage over someone who "tunneled out" at 5.5. In addition, it's not as much of an artificial distinction as some other solutions of its type might be. It's a rough parallel of the kind of advantage that might have accrued to an experienced pilot in WWII RL (learning how to ride higher and higher G levels without blacking out). And, if you die in there somewhere, you go back to Square One as a new pilot with a coincidentally identical handle, squinting down the tunnel at 4.9G until you get some missions under your belt.
Opinions sought, including those on the degree of programming difficulty.
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Flathat
'Black Dahlia'
No10 RNAS "The Black Flight"
Angel on your wing, devil on your tail
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Actually, I like ANY idea that gives players a reason to survive, but this idea is terrific.
Trips
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No-not a good idea IMO. The really good pilots are already a squeak to kill,they would become invulnerable under your proposal.
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}]
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You have a point, weazel, but I think that over time my proposal would actually level the playing field, at least to an extent.
One of the ways really good pilots get really good is by honing their skills (read feasting) on the hordes of "to fly and die" types...the people who charge in at all hazards, against any odds in any relative E situation, going blithely where angels fear to tread...folks like me, in other words. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) It's not the only way by any means, but I'm sure it saves a lot of time in the long run.
I believe that my proposal would promote smart & historically realistic flying styles...a lot more pairs and finger fours up instead of lone wolves, breaking off engagements with significant damage, and other behaviors designed to protect painstakingly built G tolerance.
Your point is well taken in another respect--assuming it's doable at all, it would have to be modeled with finely judged balance; too much progression and the best pilots really do become invulnerable; too little and it becomes meaningless.
I also see one other pitfall, on reflection--does increased G tolerance benefit primarily fighter drivers as opposed to buffers or bus drivers? I'd like to hear from those camps.
Another minor refinement to the proposal--if you ditch or bail in friendly territory, you don't lose the G tolerance you've built. You don't add any, but you don't lose it.
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Flathat
'Black Dahlia'
No10 RNAS "The Black Flight"
Angel on your wing, devil on your tail
[This message has been edited by Flathat (edited 10-29-1999).]
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Have to ask:
Can G resistance be taught in RL?
danish
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there are breathing and muscle exercises (sp?) that can be done to prolong the onset of hi G induced effects.
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huff and puff, whew, huff and puff!!!!
Hmmmm, if you can tolerate more Gs as you survive, could this be the G-string effect?
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ROTFLMAO! ........ all this time I thought it was the "G-Spot" effect!
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Aircat:
Breathing and muscles extercises sounds reasonable for me.However that is something anybody can do - not just the aces.Nah - nice idea but a little artificial perhaps.
The idea of some fatique parameter in a prolonged (G intensive) dogfight sounds more reasonable IMO - just like a engine running hot ect.Might very well be presented as "easyer blackout" as the fight carries on.
danish
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Hey FlatHat,
Thats a clever idea, but I'm not sure that it
isn't already part of the game. More experienced pilots already possess the skills
needed to minimize blackouts by using e-conserving manouvers, good stick setup and
trim and just as important, good SA to avoid
those panic-filled stick yanking aerobatics.
What AH probably should stick to is, as Danish says, adding progressive g-fatigue to
the blackout model so that someone who is
constantly riding a blackout gambles with
g-loc and may not be able to immediately
regain control of the plane. Disabling the
controls at this point would be a good touch
since there are lots of guys who know their
ACM well enough to do the moves "blind" anyway, but g-loc should imply eyes rolled
up in the head and tongue hanging out for a
few seconds at least <g>
Grump
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Flathead,
I like your idea and I don't like your idea.
I believe you must consider many other factors concerning G stress tolerance. The biggest being the physical conditioning and to a lesser degree age of the pilot. Rate of G stress application and duration, I believe are also big factors. (How long has the pilot waited to use the toilet (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) )
IMO it would be hard to model this RPG model for AH, although it would be kind of fun.
Mino
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HERE,HERE!!! keep talkin gentleman,this i like to here (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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You guys with your huffing and puffing !
Sheesh ! what next ? La Mazze ?
heheh
Rifle
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danish,
two words sum it up "Repetitive conditioning".
they didnt formaly train pilots for G stress. but those who had flown several missions and have seen combat would get conditioned wether they wanted it or not.
think of it like typing.... I have done it leasurely for a couple of years. I have a typing speed of *UP TO* 45 WPM. a trained typest that has done it for 20+ years sit at the same computer and type 100+ WMP.
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My understanding is that the guys that fly the little stunt planes, can withstand up to 10 Gs at times. This is due to conditioning, and haveing repeated the manuvers.
The down side is, that at some point, well, your head caves in.
A lot of them little stunt plane pilots die of anurisms.
I think that I may have suggested improved G tolerance for smart pilots, pilot who fly like they care about their virtual lifes before. (I believe it was a damage model rant)
So, of course, I agree, this would be a good thing.
HTC could also model a "G Effect Key."
If you hit the ctrl key every second, you build G tolerance. If you hit it every 1.1 or ever .9 seconds your tolerance isn't good. If you hit it too many times, anurism, not enough, you vomit all over your controls.
If you were doing a lot of high G manuvers, you would have to keep pressing the G Tolerance Key to keep from blacking out. If you held it down, you die of an anurism.
If you did a lot of low G manuvers, everthing starts tinting red cause of the blood in your eyeballs. You have a migrane cause of the oxygen bubble in your brain, and you get nose bleeds easily.
So much could be done, but I like the general principle, longer streaks, improved G Tolerance.
There would have to be limits, No More than 8 Gs, you would have to pull high G manuvers to build the tolerance, and you may die if you pulled too many High G manuvers.
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"I could feel the 20MM Cannon impacting behind me so I made myself small behind the pilot armor" Charlie Bond AVG
lkbrown1@tir.com
http://www.tir.com/~lkbrown1 (http://www.tir.com/~lkbrown1)
Very Opinionated Person.
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From a physologically point of view I cannot grasp that it should be possible to be more "G-resistant" if you have tried it several - or many - times.I understand that there are factors like overall fitness, or small tricks wich you can learn - basically before you sit in plane first time, or age (talking cerebrovascular system).
Reminds me somewhat of the danish bycykle coach who trained the team in dehydration - also in a beleaf that it could be "taught".
I dont say that I *know* it cannot be done, I just cant see it work.And mind you : just like the FM's I want facts ;=)
danish
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Doing the high G manuvers cause blood to flow to your head, or a low point in your body (your butt.)
High G pulls blood away from your brain and low Gs force blood too your brain.
Repeating the manuvers cause some streching of the veins. (This is generally Bad, especially forcing a lot of blood to the brain.)
The Straining exercise restrict the flow of blood, the muscles press on the veins and arteries. Thus slowing the flow of blood from the brain or too it. So muscle training helps, and therefore with practice you can resist blackouts to some extent.
Now, blood vessles are generally fragile, and ofter burst under the strain.
Hence all the stunt pilots that have blood shot eyes, and nose bleeds easily.
Even now, there should be something in the game, if you pull too many Gs it should be fatal.
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"I could feel the 20MM Cannon impacting behind me so I made myself small behind the pilot armor" Charlie Bond AVG
lkbrown1@tir.com
http://www.tir.com/~lkbrown1 (http://www.tir.com/~lkbrown1)
Very Opinionated Person.
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If you hit the ctrl key every second, you build G tolerance. If you hit it every 1.1 or ever .9 seconds your tolerance isn't good. If you hit it too many times, anurism, not enough, you vomit all over your controls.
Geez Downtown STOP IT!!!
I had a mouthful of coffee when I read your post (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Now I gotta pull all these damn keys off, and I just KNOW I'll never put them back in the same positions (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
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C.O. Phoenix Squadron
www.users.bigpond.com/afinlayson/index.htm
'feel the heat .......'
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Well I was trying to think of a way that would simulate a Pilot doing the Grunting, straining manuvers in a high G situation.
Something that would require you to do it while you are flying. It wouldn't be enough to allow players to hold down the Whatever Key while flying, just require them to keep inputing. If they stop, they didn't concentrate on the G Tolerance Exercises.
That was the intent. I didn't really mean that I wanted HT to Model Vomit for the inside of the Aircraft, though from what I have read, there were often instances of extranious detrium in the aircraft when the landed. Feces and Vomit being high on the list.
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"I could feel the 20MM Cannon impacting behind me so I made myself small behind the pilot armor" Charlie Bond AVG
lkbrown1@tir.com
http://www.tir.com/~lkbrown1 (http://www.tir.com/~lkbrown1)
Very Opinionated Person.
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I like both of the main concepts being explored here, i.e. more G-tolerance over time and G-induced fatigue. I'll throw another log on this fire by asking if late war Allied planes will have the early G-suits modeled? I'm not sure exactly when they were introduced, of if anyone besides the USAAF was using them. However, in Bud Anderson's book "To Fly and Fight," he describes two different models used by Mustang pilots. How about that for muddying the waters (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif).
Rojo (a.k.a. Sabre)
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LOL
How do you model the H effect? How many beers did the guy have last night? How many times did the pilot over G in the last 24 hrs?
G endurance = G duration - (Hangover / Cups of coffee) / (1 - G rate / age) * altitude / (repetitions + .8945)
Anyone see my point? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Mino
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Yes, Minotaur, but its a start, and a were thinking of ways to get people to fly a little more realistically.
If HTC Choose to come up with a formula for improved G resistance, well sharing that formula with us would be asking for a beating.
He could call a flight surgeon, or contact the Air Farce for studies, punch some numbers up, and who are we to argue.
Just Us.
But it is a fact that pilots did learn OVER TIME how to increase their G tolerances.
If by flying like your life depended on it, increased you abilty to with stand G Forces, I say go for it.
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"I could feel the 20MM Cannon impacting behind me so I made myself small behind the pilot armor" Charlie Bond AVG
lkbrown1@tir.com
http://www.tir.com/~lkbrown1 (http://www.tir.com/~lkbrown1)
Very Opinionated Person.
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Well.. I have some real world experience with this.. not quantifiable numbers per se.. but experience. I'm a competition aerobatic pilot, and regularly pull over +9 and -8 during a competition flight. But it doesn't start that way. At the beginning of the practice season for me.. best I can regularly pull is about +/- 6G. I'll also start to gray pretty hard after about 15 minutes of practice. But after about 2 weeks of flying every day.. my tolerance is back to normal.. and I can pull +/- 9G (and have pulled over 10 on occasion) with regularity.
Seefo
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Seefo, do you have to see a flight surgeon?
How long have you been doing this.
Do you get nose bleeds?
Do you have any ideas how some form of tolerance could be modeled into the Sim?
What should be the penalty for too many, too much, too long?
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"I could feel the 20MM Cannon impacting behind me so I made myself small behind the pilot armor" Charlie Bond AVG
lkbrown1@tir.com
http://www.tir.com/~lkbrown1 (http://www.tir.com/~lkbrown1)
Very Opinionated Person.
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DOWNTOWN,cheers for trying to find ways to cause people to fly more realistically!
The adversion to having people die in these on-line things,i belive,is the biggest deterent to realistic behavior.
I've been told its to keep game balance.But it seems the KILL is the only thing of any importance.
Until someone starts to model the MAN inside the MACHINE we will only ever have meaningless, endless furballing.
I've been reading these boards for years.The complants in ALL the on-line things are the same.Think about it.What stops a real flyer from pulling some of the stupid things we see in these games?
I dont belive something like making you fly from a defalt base when killed would unbalance the game.Hell it might just be the start to A game.
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Seefo:
What I have been arguing is that fysiological mecanisms like the dynamics of vascular muscles can not be controlled by will, and can not be trained or taught: it belongs to the socalled vasomotorical system.
That is (I think) still a fact.
However, I have been rethinking ;=)
What was initially the discussion was if experience could better your tolerance.Now, between the vascular resistence in your body (wich can not be manipulated) and the brain (wich is the target of high\low pressure of G-forces)is a mass of things wich you *can* manipulate.Several have been mentioned above: fitness, age, musclemass in legs,"trics" G-suits, fatique ect.Several of these can without doubt be finetuned by experience in an actually demanding enviroment.Aerobatics or dogfighting.
So to conclude: I stand corrected.
;=)
danish
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I like the arguments on both sides here and I think that a good balance would be not to increase the pilots G-tolerance but instead to decrease his recovery rate as he gains in kills and in high-G manuvers.
By this I mean that if you rack up a lot of kills and always return from your missions without a scratch, but, you have never even come close to blackout, well your recovery rate would not improve. It would only get better as you practice your high-G manuvers and returned safely home after scoring some pionts in combat.
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Vortex
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If the idea is to encourage players to treat their lives more seriosly then why not put a 30 minute no fly in for bail outs and crash landings and a 2 hour no fly in for kills.
I would be interested in seeing the dynamic this would create.(I would see it mostly from the ground though...)
Certainly the beta is the time to try this before people are paying.
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Interesting idea, pongo, but a little too punitive IMHO. "Forced grounding" unduly penalizes the player who might only have a 30-min or 1-hr window to get in a sortie or two before RL sets in again. I know I'm personally in that boat a lot.Granted, in a flat-rate sim (ho-sanna, hey-sanna, sanna sanna ho-sanna... (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)) at least the meter isn't running, but time can still be a limiting factor.
However, it's nice to see that there are a great many of us who'd like to see more incentive to "fly real" than merely score. Anything done in this area would have to be done judiciously, and the "endless furball/vultchfest/etc" issue probably won't change too much until the strat system and ground vehicles are enabled.
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Flathat
'Black Dahlia'
No10 RNAS "The Black Flight"
Angel on your wing, devil on your tail
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Why not send the pilot to a rear field (hospital) to recover? By that I mean anyone dashing forward wantonly into a melee would then be locked into a longer flight to the fight. This might even represent the depletion of material from forward fields, effectively forcing a squad to "stand down". You don't have a problem with paying pilots sitting still, and in cases where the fight is at the last field last-ditch efforts won't be cause for penalty for the defending pilots.
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Good point you would get a sort of Malta situation where pilots are getting multi defensive sorties.
If the area was bigger you could force pilots to ferry their mounts to the front line.