Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Captain Virgil Hilts on August 31, 2004, 08:05:59 AM
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Regarding the ENY system.
According to several posts, it is, or was, the stated position of the powers that be that two larger countries will always gang up on one smaller country. If this is indeed true, shouldn't the ENY system handicap BOTH larger countries? Or does it already?
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The powers that be never said such a thing.
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Originally posted by hitech
The powers that be never said such a thing.
I seem to remember you saying specifically in reply to me that the two larger countries will always attack the smaller country. I suppose I can find the example with a dedicated search.
The context was that I stated that "if two countries were more or less equal and only one was larger then the two countries that were smaller but equal they could attack a larger country hit with the ENY penalty with a serious advantage".
You then stated in reply that the "two smaller countires would not unite against the larger country, but rather one smaller country would turn on the other country and unite with the larger country."
Like I said, I could hunt down the thread I suppose. But it isn't really worth it.
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I thought that the ENY modifier DID affect both countries, relative to how many more players they had?
Shop
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Originally posted by shoppe
I thought that the ENY modifier DID affect both countries, relative to how many more players they had?
Shop
It may in fact do so. I did not see evidence of it recently when I thought I might would have. Hence the question.
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from what i remember the ENY thing AND the perk multiplier was not designed to necessarily punish the "hordes" but to reward the lower country.
the thinking being, others will want those "rewards" and go to the country with the lesser numbers.
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Actually I beleive the idea behond 3 countries is that the two smaller countries theoretically will gang up on the big country.
Unfortunately it rarely works this way.
typically the two larger countries gang on the 1 smalles country in a race for the reset.
Least thats been my observation
the Modifier is supposed to help create balance by limiting the type of uber planes the larger countries have
to help slow the horde from steamrolling.
Which also has been my observation doesnt work
A horde is a horde is a horde
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Originally posted by JB73
from what i remember the ENY thing AND the perk multiplier was not designed to necessarily punish the "hordes" but to reward the lower country.
the thinking being, others will want those "rewards" and go to the country with the lesser numbers.
Taking something from one country does not "reward" another country. Giving something to the disadvantaged country would "reward" it. The ENY limit does not "reward" the smaller country, it penalizes the larger country. Lowering perk costs (which could be lowered far more drasticly as far as I'm concerned) "rewards" the smaller country.
I think it would have been better to make perk planes free up to the 262 for the smaller country, and make the 262 irresistably cheap. Make the 234 free as well. That would have been a real "reward" for the smaller country.
I don't think nearly so many will switch countries as will just continue on in different planes or log off.
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Originally posted by DREDIOCK
Actually I beleive the idea behond 3 countries is that the two smaller countries theoretically will gang up on the big country.
Unfortunately it rarely works this way.
typically the two larger countries gang on the 1 smalles country in a race for the reset.
Least thats been my observation
the Modifier is supposed to help create balance by limiting the type of uber planes the larger countries have
to help slow the horde from steamrolling.
Which also has been my observation doesnt work
A horde is a horde is a horde
Agreed. It is a problem with the 3 country system that could not be solved by a 2 country system, and doubtfully by a 4 country system.
The ENY system has a problem because often the "middle" country takes part in the "gang" and pays little if any penalty in ENY limits. So the small country STILL suffers the "gang", and only sees the ENY limit as slightly helpful on one side.
I still say the solution to the horde mentality is more complex, because it deals with human nature.
I don't think the reset and 75 perks is the driving factor everyone thinks it is.
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Originally posted by Captain Virgil Hilts
Taking something from one country does not "reward" another country. Giving something to the disadvantaged country would "reward" it. The ENY limit does not "reward" the smaller country, it penalizes the larger country. Lowering perk costs (which could be lowered far more drasticly as far as I'm concerned) "rewards" the smaller country.
I think it would have been better to make perk planes free up to the 262 for the smaller country, and make the 262 irresistably cheap. Make the 234 free as well. That would have been a real "reward" for the smaller country.
I don't think nearly so many will switch countries as will just continue on in different planes or log off.
If the lower country is down to 4-5 bases and the two larger countries are ganging for the reset, you can make all perk planes FREE and it won't amount to hill of beans.
Hordes of P-51s/La-7s will eat the 262s and 234s for lunch and any other perk planes before they could get up to speed or off the ground.
Why do people think that the 262 is the BIG equalizer ?
262s are completely USELESS for 98.99% of the MA population. Just because its a jet, doesn't mean that anybody who jumps in one will get mega-kills, it would be quite the opposite. It takes alot of skill to be proficient in a 262.
They might, and I stress MIGHT, get a couple of kills with the limited ammo load, and once the 262 tag is recognised, they won't last longer than 10 minutes in the air. If they do, they wouldn't have killed anybody unless someone is AFK because they will be too busy running from everybody and their brother who wants to land the 262 kill.
The ENY disabler is working, but it does need some more tweaking/changes.
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Originally posted by SlapShot
If the lower country is down to 4-5 bases and the two larger countries are ganging for the reset, you can make all perk planes FREE and it won't amount to hill of beans.
Hordes of P-51s/La-7s will eat the 262s and 234s for lunch and any other perk planes before they could get up to speed or off the ground.
Why do people think that the 262 is the BIG equalizer ?
262s are completely USELESS for 98.99% of the MA population. Just because its a jet, doesn't mean that anybody who jumps in one will get mega-kills, it would be quite the opposite. It takes alot of skill to be proficient in a 262.
They might, and I stress MIGHT, get a couple of kills with the limited ammo load, and once the 262 tag is recognised, they won't last longer than 10 minutes in the air. If they do, they wouldn't have killed anybody unless someone is AFK because they will be too busy running from everybody and their brother who wants to land the 262 kill.
The ENY disabler is working, but it does need some more tweaking/changes.
The ENY limit offers VERY little to a country in the situation you describe. Little if anything will. Stopping the LA7 and P-51D certainly will not.
This is not about stopping a gang reset, nothing will do that if they are determined. This is about leveling the plane vs plane field when numbers are not level. Or do you feel perk rides are not as much better than the LA7 and the P-51D as the LA7 and the P-51D are better than planes with an ENY much lower?
The object was NOT the 262, but the other planes. It SHOULD make just as much difference as the ENY limit, provided the perk planes are really as much an advantage as they are purported to be and players take advantage of it. Players who seem to NEED the advantages provided by the LA7 and the P-51D should really get some help with free perk planes. And provided the country in question is not beyond hope and help, they can up their free or reduced cost perk planes a sector or two back and get speed and altitude. Just as much if not more an advatage as not seeing the P-51D and LA7, along with the Spit IX. Basicly, 20 ENY points is 20 ENY points, no matter how you go about getting the difference. The pilot will make or break the rest of the difference, regardless of the system.
The 262 is very little to me period. Unless I'm already engaged or damaged, or otherwise at a serious disadvantage, the 262 is mostly annoying, unless flown by an expert. Again, this is not about the 262.
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Lets get rid of the ENY rubbish, if your outnumbered and can't play the game that way, log off adn come back when the numbers readjust. Folks, sometimes the enemy has superior numbers. Telling us what planes we can fly is not solving anything, actually its ticking alot of us off. Jesus are the perk multipliers not enough (there are people getting 160 perks for a single kill now)?! When Germany invaded Russia, Germany was outnumbered, did they stop because of that? Was there some great omnipotent source that stepped in and forced the russians to fight in donkey carts? No, they sucked it up and fought till germany was exhausted and others stepped in. War is hell, war sims are hell sometimes too. If you are outnumbered, IMO that is tough, sometimes the other teams get outnumbered too. Get over it in other words, lets quit ruining everyone elses game play cause you don't like the #'s. They balance out in time any way, they always have, they always will. Rooks have numbers one night, knights have them the next. The next time I have to defend a base against cheap tigers in a m8, I'll probably log off.
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Originally posted by twitchy
Lets get rid of the ENY rubbish, if your outnumbered and can't play the game that way, log off adn come back when the numbers readjust.
So you're saying I should cancel my account or move to the horde country?
Nice.
That'll solve all the problems.:rolleyes:
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Originally posted by Karnak
So you're saying I should cancel my account or move to the horde country?
Nice.
That'll solve all the problems.:rolleyes:
Uh no I said,
Originally posted by twitchy
Lets get rid of the ENY rubbish, if your outnumbered and can't play the game that way, log off adn come back when the numbers readjust.
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or how about this ...
Lets KEEP the ENY rubbish, if your over-numbered and can't play the game that way, log off and come back when the numbers readjust.
Sounds good to me.
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Originally posted by Captain Virgil Hilts
The ENY limit offers VERY little to a country in the situation you describe. Little if anything will. Stopping the LA7 and P-51D certainly will not.
This is not about stopping a gang reset, nothing will do that if they are determined. This is about leveling the plane vs plane field when numbers are not level. Or do you feel perk rides are not as much better than the LA7 and the P-51D as the LA7 and the P-51D are better than planes with an ENY much lower?
The object was NOT the 262, but the other planes. It SHOULD make just as much difference as the ENY limit, provided the perk planes are really as much an advantage as they are purported to be and players take advantage of it. Players who seem to NEED the advantages provided by the LA7 and the P-51D should really get some help with free perk planes. And provided the country in question is not beyond hope and help, they can up their free or reduced cost perk planes a sector or two back and get speed and altitude. Just as much if not more an advatage as not seeing the P-51D and LA7, along with the Spit IX. Basicly, 20 ENY points is 20 ENY points, no matter how you go about getting the difference. The pilot will make or break the rest of the difference, regardless of the system.
The 262 is very little to me period. Unless I'm already engaged or damaged, or otherwise at a serious disadvantage, the 262 is mostly annoying, unless flown by an expert. Again, this is not about the 262.
I was only referencing the planes that you used in yout post. Again, the 262 is no bargain for FREE, even if you have 10-15 bases left, and the 234 is as useless as boobs on a bull.
There is nothing worse that being outnumbered AND to look up in the sky and all you see are P-51s and La-7s. That is the exact scenario that could be seen, day in and day out prior to the ENY disabler. I don't see it that way much anymore.
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So your saying, make the number imbalance even worse twitchy?
HiTech
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Originally posted by hitech
So your saying, make the number imbalance even worse twitchy?
HiTech
It Don't matter what I say Hitech, it will be flaming. :mad:
Here let me do it for you...
Edit for flame.
Last edited by hitech on 08-31-2004 at 01:21 PM
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Originally posted by twitchy
Lets get rid of the ENY rubbish, if your outnumbered and can't play the game that way, log off adn come back when the numbers readjust. Folks, sometimes the enemy has superior numbers. Telling us what planes we can fly is not solving anything, actually its ticking alot of us off. Jesus are the perk multipliers not enough (there are people getting 160 perks for a single kill now)?! When Germany invaded Russia, Germany was outnumbered, did they stop because of that? Was there some great omnipotent source that stepped in and forced the russians to fight in donkey carts? No, they sucked it up and fought till germany was exhausted and others stepped in. War is hell, war sims are hell sometimes too. If you are outnumbered, IMO that is tough, sometimes the other teams get outnumbered too. Get over it in other words, lets quit ruining everyone elses game play cause you don't like the #'s. They balance out in time any way, they always have, they always will. Rooks have numbers one night, knights have them the next. The next time I have to defend a base against cheap tigers in a m8, I'll probably log off.
twitchy ...
Perk multipliers MEAN SQUAT !!! Its been in place for how long ? ... and what exactly did it accomplish ? ... NOTHING.
Spare us the WW II examples ... it won't wash. Read my sig for HT thoughts on AH War. That is where the mindset has to go.
Conversly ... If you are over-numbered, IMO that is tough, you'll just have to find a new ride. How does that sound ? I thought so. As long as YOUR gameplay is not ruined, then all is OK ?
I would make GVs exempt from the ENY disabler. They are not such a determining force as the planes are.
twitchy ... I have said this before ... The ENY disabler needs to be worked on/tweaked so that it is not as harsh as it is at the moment, but its foundation is sound.
Honestly, I don't want to go back to the way it was because that was not fun for some, nor do I want it to continue the way it is currently, because its not fun for some. I would like to see it built upon to make it palatable for all.
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Edit for flame.
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Edit for flame
Sorry.
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Originally posted by twitchy
Uh no I said,
Originally posted by twitchy
Lets get rid of the ENY rubbish, if your outnumbered and can't play the game that way, log off adn come back when the numbers readjust.
That is what you typed. What you meant was "Quit the game or join the horde."
You see, after logging in every night for a week and finding the side I fly for pounded down to a few fields that were capped it really doesn't matter anymore. This was before the plane limiter. I have not played much since then due to time constraints and now being without an internet connection after my move.
Your suggestion is worthless because it isn't a solution. You offer no way to resolve a sequence of events where a player is not able to log on to a reasonably balanced MA for a week. And if it can happen for a week it can happen for longer periods of time.
Because of that you basically suggested that I join the horde or pay for a product I cannot use reliably.
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I did post a reply but I can't say anything on the BB without being edited, so have at me.
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twitchy read rule number 4 a few times. Start showing some respect for others, and your post might not get delted.
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Originally posted by Captain Virgil Hilts
If this is indeed true, shouldn't the ENY system handicap BOTH larger countries? Or does it already?
To answer the original question, yes it does punish both countries. The benchmark is the roster of the smallest country. Both larger countries are measured aginst that, and penalized accordingly.
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Edit for flame
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Edit for flame repeate
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Originally posted by Hyrax81st
Brown-noser
LOL !!!
hahahaha :lol
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here we go again...:rolleyes:
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someone's board permissions are going bye bye.. registered this month this year?
didnt skuzzy just today say something about shades accounts?
sry dont mean to bait someone... justa astounds me the lack of consideration
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When I log on, if 4 bases left I log off. Simple and to the point.
Ten bases, I look for red on the radar and run to them. ( I die a lot LOL)
Stop reading the rule books. LOg on; join the fight; and have some fun! :)