Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Loyalist on February 11, 2001, 03:22:00 PM
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I know I am probably going to be flamed for honestly providing you with my reasons for being apprehensive about the new system but here it goes.
Is anyone else worried that AH is going to become Counterstrike with wings? Do you not think that people are going to dive into everything looking for individual points so they can get that great new perk plane?
Where did the sim go? Do you not think that this is going from sim to game very quickly? The torque has been dumbed down so more people can play, the fm (I think) have been tweaked so it is easier, etc.
Instead of adding in "perk planes", why not add in some mid-war or early-war plane sets? Why does the game have to conform to suit the 13 year olds with no attention span instead of honest simmers who want a realistic experience? I'm not trying to flame AH here but really, what is up?
My concern is that AH is selling out, going for the $$ instead of keeping its original fan base of simmers happy.
Does anyone else feel apprehensive towards initiating the new Perk system?
Ok, lets see who flames me first...
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If you are going to be honest why use an alias?
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Excellent question, Mighty. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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I think I have seen this guy in the main arena, and his handle was loyalist.
I can be wrong, tho.
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"Does anyone else feel apprehensive towards initiating the new Perk system?"
No
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576 Squadron (Bomber Command)-RAF
(http:// [url=http://home.earthlink.net/~ryanridge/5765.jpg)]http://home.earthlink.net/~ryanridge/5765.jpg[/img][/url]
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Loyalist is a 308th member. I flew with him yesterday for a bit so yes he flys in the arena under that handle.
And im gona wait and see how it works, ill praise it or whine then. My 2 cents
[This message has been edited by rosco- (edited 02-11-2001).]
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Has the torque been changed at some point. I've only been on a few months. Was it different before I got here?
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While I preferred the old flight model, I have no real objection to the one we have now. I don't think either one of them really tells you what it is like to be in a 5-ton hunk of aluminum whirling about the skies. As long as there are enough f/m differences to roughly approximate their real-life counterparts I can suspend disbelief enough to have fun.
The perk system will have the opposite effect to the one you described; I don't think there will be more action, I think there will be less. Like the others, I say wait and see.
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Yet another thread worrying about something that could wait until we see how it will be actually implemented.
Anyone want to buy a "Sky is Falling" tee-shirt?
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Rape, pillage, then burn...
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it shure as hell aint me . have though perk was silly from the start . miss the hell out of ww2 planes . not that i have a prob with korea lol. we gonna have every plane that never mattered ye ha.
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No. Perk points have already changed the game and no one has cashed in yet.
Look in the arena. It seems that there are far fewer F4U-1C then there used to be. There are more Jugs, more LA-5, etc.
I think it's a good thing. If I understand correctly, perk points place a greater incentive for landing your plane. So, diving in fangs first into every furball you see won't be the way to amass points.
The desire to return from a mission and land is the only thing that separates this from Quake, IMHO.
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cheers,
sand
screamin blue messiahs (http://www.screaminbluemessiahs.org)
(http://www.screaminbluemessiahs.org/image/sbmlogo2.gif)
[This message has been edited by Sandman_SBM (edited 02-11-2001).]
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Originally posted by Sandman_SBM:
Look in the arena. It seems that there are far fewer F4U-1C then there used to be
Are you blind? does your screen refuses to show "F4U"? (understandable, from my point of view (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif))
From the Scores page:
Tour 13 (so far):
Model------ Kills--Deaths--Kills / Deaths + 1
A6M5b-------1529----2121------0.7205
B-17G-------1478----1834------0.8054
B-26B-------1062----1631------0.6507
Bf 109F-4---338-----405-------0.8325
Bf 109G-10--2307----1981------1.1640
Bf 109G-2---509-----408-------1.2445
Bf 109G-6---648-----653-------0.9908
C-47A-------79------1631------0.0484
C.202-------126-----203-------0.6176
C.205-------605-----722-------0.8368
F4U-1C------9081----6546------1.3870
F4U-1D------2286----2653------0.8613
F6F-5-------1599----2213------0.7222
Fw 190A-5---977-----696-------1.4017
Fw 190A-8---900-----836-------1.0753
Ju-88-------334-----1440------0.2318
La-5FN------1147----1126------1.0177
Lancaster---684-----1304------0.5241
N1K2--------6028----4858------1.2406
P-38L-------1170----1923------0.6081
P-47-D25----362-----365-------0.9891
P-47-D30----936-----1280------0.7307
P-51D-------3112----3094------1.0055
SeaFire-----1680----2122------0.7913
SpitIX------3390----3277------1.0342
SpitV-------922-----1375------0.6701
TBM-3-------379-----2299------0.1648
Typhoon-----1498----1242------1.2051
Yak-9U------897-----968-------0.9257
TOTAL KILLS: 46723
F4U1-C: 9081; 19.5% (Aprox)
N1K2: 6028; 13% (aprox)
P51D: 3390; 7.3% (Aprox)
the % is almost identical to tha of last TODs.
Dude, really ,go to the optician. You REALLY need those glasses (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 02-11-2001).]
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I applaud the introduction of "very-late-war" and "what-if" planes into the planeset.
EVERY WW2-sim out there already has the "normal" planes. By adding the unique ones that NO other game has, AH will create a niche for itself and ensure its long-terms survival. Plus, it makes the game more interesting.
The "normal" planes will come in time.
J_A_B
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Thanks for keeping it civil guys.
My opinion is this. Aces High (from my understanding) is a World War II sim. Why add in planes that made very little contribution to the war. The 262? IT didn't do much, it came too late. Other Uber planes? Sure, they are fun to fly (maybe that's the reason (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif) ) but they didn't do much. The most influencial planes of the war remain absent from the game. The Hurricane, without which the British would have lost England. Early version Spitfires. The He 111. The P-51B. The Mosquito. The Ki series for the Japanese.
In my opinion gameplay would shoot through the roof if the game focus on mid-war combat. You have to fly your plane with these older models.
Planes made in late 44 onwards really didn't do a lot for the war. It was already won, practically. The really nuts and bolts of the war were the planes that faught from '41 - early '44. Yet they remain absent.
I'm not trying to complain or whine (altough i'm sure it sounds like it) I am just wondering why they focus on things like the 262, the Spit XIV, the Tempest and B-29 when the very influencial planes are not in yet.
The perk system is slowly growing on me. I just don't like the idea of playing for points (instant classification of "Game").
Anyways, those are my concerns.
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Oops
[This message has been edited by Jimdandy (edited 02-11-2001).]
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Those numbers are a little funkey Ram. The number we need is how many sorties are flow. Thats not what that number is.
That number says that you are more likely to see a Hog C then all the 109s, 190s and p47s and the P38 combined.
I think that is far from the truth in the MA. I dont know how the numbers shake out but they are nothing like that. Is anyone experiancing Hog Cs in numbers like that?
I aggree they are getting the kills. But they get alot of ponys kills and 109 pilots kills.
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Loyalist,
I beleive you and anyone else certainly has the right to voice your opinions on how the "game"/"sim" is evolving and what it's state is now.
That being said there is one item that really controls how it is develped as far as choices made on aircraft included in the "game"/"sim". This is NOT at WWII simulation! From the outset it was stated to be a Air Combat Simulation using WWII type aircraft. ACM was the whole point of it. They have added other features to peak our interest and give us somthing a little different to do such as ground and water vehicles, and a strat system but the heart of this simulation, unless this goal has changed, was to enable players to experience air to air combat.
In that context then the inclusion of aircraft that saw little or any actual combat is completly acceptable (at least in my way of thinking).
By including these aircraft and continuing to provide aircraft no one else models make's this "game"/"sim" unique.
I too would like to see some of the early war planes included but would probably not spend too much time flying them unless it were in a scenario or special event of some sort.
That's my $.02 worth.
(http://home.att.net/~lmluper/P47.jpg) (http://www.jump.net/~cs3)
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OK if Loyalist is his real name then I apologise for the accusation.
As far as the question ..Yes I am uneasy with the perk system.
For starters I'm having problems even getting them and the other is I don't have time to play enough to get enough to do anything.
I've been on the last couple of days and I keep getting zero for perk points even though I kill AC or bomb tagets and land OK. 0 points! Then I get killed and don't kill anything and I get 1.75 points.
Not sure how the point system works but I'm pretty sure that's not right.
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I also prefer a more historical plane set over the present one. Red Baron 2 had this set out nicely. The time period changed automatically and new planes became available in correct order at certain intervals.
Maybe one day could represent one year in terms of plane availability. After reset the 1st day would be 1939 and then the 7th day would be 1945. Moving to the next day after 45 would be problematic though since people get to keep the plane they if only refuel and rearm instead of exiting the plane (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) Maybe refueling would not work for planes from 1945 after the time changed back to 1939.
This method offered nice match-ups and all had to learn to fly planes from different time periods.
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Am I aprehensive about the Perk Point System (PPS)? Yes, but only that it will need to be tuned, and that for a time, some people will learn how to "game the game". For instance the Jabo'ing factories for hordes of fighter points, which is absurd. But those issues will be fixed, just like HTC has fixed other issues.
But I do take issue with your statement that only real men and long time experienced pilots have the skill to fly early war and midwar aircraft. Real Nuts & Bolts planes as you call them.
Bull Crap.
I have had a continuous account open at AW since the early AW4W on AOL days thru AW2 beta, thru the present. I started playing WB's in the waning days of 0.99, and played there up to 2.75. And I have played here in AH since the very first day of open beta. And personally, I love late war and "what if" perk planes. Am I some 13 year old, "QuakeBoy" ?
No I'm not flaming you, but I'm trying to point out that in your two posts in this thread have take a very high handed tone that says "If you don't like manly man early war planes, your just a no skilled no experienced quaker". Which is wrong.
If you like early war stuff, fine. Alot of my best friends in WWII flight sims are the same. I see nothing wrong with that. But there is nothing wrong with liking late war planes either, and they take just as much skill to fly. Maybe a different skill set, but just as much skill.
Sorry but the He111 was no more important than the B29. Someone who sacrificed their life at Dunkirk, was no more noble than someone who sacrificed theirs at Iwo Jima or Okinawa. No matter if the war was a "foregone conclusion" or not (which I could argue in depth with you)
Life is Life. Battle is Battle. And the ultimate sacrifice for your country, is still the ultimate sacrifice. Period.
I'm not flaming you Loyalist. But I really hate to see this pervasive "early war elitism" that is starting to sink into this community from over in WB's.
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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
[This message has been edited by Vermillion (edited 02-12-2001).]
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No, this is not a WWII simulation but it is a simulation that uses WWII ac and... It is a GAME. It is a game that anyone can jump in any time night or day 24/7 and participate and have the same chance of success as anyone else. There is no beggining and no ending except for a loose "win" scenario that really has no affect on the gameplay.
The idiotic perk system is totally contrary to what we have now. It destroys the basic fairness of the planeset. Look at all the whining when one plane is even percieved to be slightly better than the others. I ruins the fun of casual players who will face vastly superior planes than theirs with no recourse to simply choose one themselves.
It will guarentee that early war planes will be ignored or, at the very least, be put on the back burner till a whole new concept can be adopted.
And for what? So that a few anal dipshits can run away better? So they can get a chance to see how their "dream" plane would do against vastly inferior planes? Why not have an ultra late war arena where these planes can fly against each other?
I can't see how I would enjoy killing in a perk ride or being killed in one in the current arena.
Perk can add nothing but confusion and animosity. If perk planes cost thousands of points then they will be only mildly aggravating but then what will be the point? If they cost only a hundred or so then you will see them every time you go up... Every day will be jet day. I didn't play on jet day.
lazs
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Lazs, is there any way for you to post without cursing?
This thread was somewhat tame until you of course added yer two cents.
The reputation you've built up is so anti-perk based that if anyone ever sees you in a perk plane you'll never hear the end of it.
I'm not 'for' or 'against' perks yet. When the system has been out for a month (so, T+1 month from the release of 1.06) we can have the same discussion and at that point, I (and others) could very well hate the damned perk system. But most of us are open and willing enough to try it before we make a decision.
To me this entire arguement is a moot point until we start seeing the new planes out.
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While we're second guessing things..
<sarcasm>
I think WWIIOl will blow the socks off of this game and it will be out in 2 days.
I think WBIII will be out next week and the graphics will be amazing, and run fast as hell on a P166 with a 1st generation 3D card.
I think that the world will end in 2020AD because a race of super monkeys will come about and kill us all then blow up the planet when they start fiddling around with our nuclear weapons.
</sarcasm>
-SW
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is "dipshit" cursing? Look.... you don't have to be karnak to figure out the things that I have laid out. They are all quite logical and inevitable. If some are "rewarded" for certain "styles" or behavior over others and that "reward" consists of giving them an unfair advantage.... I mean... Duh.
lazs
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Ah well. Lazs, you a rook?
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<S> Loyalist, glad to have you in the squad. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
I used to wonder about those things, too, when I first joined AH. But, I saw right away that Pyro and HiTech weren't going to give us an early war planeset no matter how much I whined. So, I've started to think that to make a niche for themselves, it's better to finish the late war planeset. I enjoyed the game "Secret Weapons of the Luftwaffe" way back in 1991, and see no reason why it wouldn't be fun to fly the "what if" planes online---as long as the numbers are limited.
As to them "selling out to the quakeheads"...I'd say no. I would describe it more like them trying to appease the hard core junkies, while trying to build their customer base by adding features that make learning how to play easier. It's gotta be a tough balancing act. And no matter what they do, somebody will whine about it, so I think they just do what they think is right.
Verm, I resemble that remark about Early War Elitests. Hey, maybe I could start a new squad called the **EWE**. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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LOL banana!! **EWE** I like that (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Would your squad greeting be....
Baaaaaahhhhhhh!!
No wait, my old squad on AW, ACCS, trademarked that long ago (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/tongue.gif)
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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
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Bottom line is there will be people unhappy with this upcoming perk system. There are people that have been unhappy with damned near everything AH has done to one extent or another. Sometimes they mature and stay, sometimes they dont mature and stay anyway.
Other times they leave and come back (usually under a different handle) and other times they leave and never come back.
In the end folks will either mature past their present dissatisfactions or move someplace else that doesnt make them happy for whatever mundane reason and repeat the cycle all over again.
Yeager
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I'm taking a wait-and-see attitude, but it seems like a lot of development resources invested to model planes that will be available to only a few players -- or, if a lot of players get perk planes, then it's gonna be "Jet Day" every day.
Of course, I'd rather do the twisty-turny in a Wildcat, than the zoom-n-vaporize in a Bearcat.
Waitin' to see.
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As long as there are enough historical scenarios going on, and as long as the plan on adding some earlier aircraft, I'm perfectly fine with it.
Perhaps a long lasting WWII arena would work? Make it so it follows one theatre of ops throughout the war. One year a day is pretty fast, but one year per month would be perfect. I would be in for that for sure, anyone else?
Vermillion, just so it is clear. There is not a generation in the history of mankind to which I hold a deeper respect. The point of my post was not to say that those men who lost their lives later in the war were less important. My post was meant to say that the planes used at the end of the war were not as important to the war as those early or mid war planes. Not the men, the planes.
Anyways, I doubt my posting will affect the games outcome in the future. I just thought I would toss my opinion out there and see how everyone responds to it. Obviously my opinion is not shared by the majority here, so I will accept that it is best for HTC to stick with their current plan. Even though I may personally disagree with it. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Just out of curiousity, I know you're a new member Loyalist - plan on staying past the two week trial? Hope so - you seem like a good guy and if I remember right, you fly rook?
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RAM,
Just looking at the scores, Tour 12 was a huge spike compared to the tours before it. In tours 9 thru 11, the CHOG accounted for roughly 15,000 kills. It's not on pace in tour 13 to match the 39,000 kills scored in tour 12.
9 10 11 12 13
A6M5b 1470 1648 1295 8362 1621
Bf109F-4 436 526 450 1802 373
Bf109G-10 5292 6772 3750 6817 2460
Bf109G-2 598 632 292 1455 545
Bf109G-6 806 756 451 1512 673
C.202 156 124 88 418 129
C.205 1018 818 599 2321 653
F4U-1C 15745 15516 15513 39515 9576
F4U-1D 1520 1416 1280 11486 2388
F6F-5 0 0 0 12535 1704
Fw190A-5 2462 2560 1665 2417 1026
Fw190A-8 1817 2998 1721 2804 1001
La-5FN 1622 1963 1209 4169 1199
N1K2 9594 10915 6176 18534 6504
P-38L 2907 2636 1570 4188 1258
P-47-D25 490 748 425 1040 394
P-47-D30 1770 2553 1566 2768 977
P-51D 6164 8575 5280 12225 3265
SeaFire 0 0 0 7848 1799
Spitfire9 9008 11969 5944 10043 3561
SpitV 1536 1975 1239 4109 994
Typhoon 5194 6016 3631 4982 1635
Yak-9U 2334 3034 1818 3651 937
FWIW, I don't see any planes on pace to outshoot tour 12.
Also... the previous post was my perception. Looking at the stats, I've been killed by NiKs more than anything else.
[This message has been edited by Sandman_SBM (edited 02-12-2001).]
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Yep. Actually my credit card is in the mail and should be here in a few days. I'd be happy to start paying then. I fly Knights though (this ToD).
Sandman, if you look at those numbers, the F4UC has six thousand more kills than the others (excluding N1K). You can yell at me for being new if you like, but those raw numbers tell their own story.
[This message has been edited by Loyalist (edited 02-12-2001).]
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Originally posted by Sandman_SBM:
FWIW, I don't see any planes on pace to outshoot tour 12.
Of course. That is because 1.05 release brought here countless new users ,some of them stayed after the 2 week trial, but some of them didnt. So now there is a smaller player base and so, the ammount of total kills is less. It is completely normal that the F4U1-c wont get as much kills as in 1.05, nor the niki will, nor most of the planes wont.
BUT!...in tour 12, the Chog got 20% of the kills and the N1K2 13%. THESE % STATS ARE ALMOST IDENTICAL in tours 12 and 13.
Conclussion? the F4U1-C and N1K2 STILL claim ONE THIRD OF ALL ARENA KILLS.
Just as in tour 12.
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Hmmm...how can you say the player base is smaller? I havent seen anything from HTC stating that. I think the base has grown a bit since 1.05. But I guess that all depends on how many new guys decided to stick around. Wouldnt that number be larger because of the changes made to the game between 1.04 and 1.05?
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Originally posted by lazs:
is "dipshit" cursing? Look.... you don't have to be karnak to figure out the things that I have laid out. They are all quite logical and inevitable. If some are "rewarded" for certain "styles" or behavior over others and that "reward" consists of giving them an unfair advantage.... I mean... Duh.
lazs
Just a paranoid. Perk points are currently being awarded for a vast range of behaviors. Shooting down planes bombing targets destroying strat captureing bases.
"Players that shoot down other players will recieve an unfair advantage to contintue to do so, to the disadvatage of the players that dont like to shoot others down"
worst case is your nonsence and fear mongering have any effect on the direction of the game. But im not to worried about that.
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Originally posted by sling322:
Hmmm...how can you say the player base is smaller? I havent seen anything from HTC stating that. I think the base has grown a bit since 1.05. But I guess that all depends on how many new guys decided to stick around. Wouldnt that number be larger because of the changes made to the game between 1.04 and 1.05?
Tour11 was V1.04. Tour 12 was V1.05. When 1.05 appeared the server was full all day long, and in peak hours you wouldnt enter it because it was at full capacity.
Why? because loads of new users gave a try to their 2 week trial at that time. From that people some has left after their 2 weeks and some have stayed.
So the player base now is significantly bigger than in Tour11 (V1.04) but lower than in Tour12 (1.05). And so you can perfectly expect to see a lower total kills ammount.
[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 02-13-2001).]
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geeze pongo, paranoid? i guess in the land of the blind the one eyed man is.... paranoid? Look, you say that a wide variety of "skills" are rewarded. This is true as far as it goes but anyone can clearly see that skills are unevenly (unfairly) rewarded. Time on line is rewarded also. It's all backwards anyway. the people who least need a perk ride will be in em.
A for instance would be... rewarding "survival" or heavily weighing it, will cause even more timidity in the arena. It will also make the new guy even less likely to get points and even more of a baby seal and less likely to maintain interest. Rewarding bombing will make even more dedicated fighter pilots game the bomber game and bomb useless or riskless targets making for even less action in the game.
If they even rewarded things I like, like kills per time with no penalty for death... It would piss some people off. Any behavior (of the countless there are) that is rewarded over any other is bogus.
And who would want to fly a perk plane anyway? I submit it would be the same people who flew the planes that were grossly overmodeled (and perhaps later fixed)in WB. I submit that they are not the people I want to be in a "game" with.
lazs
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I just dissagree. The system can be implemented to reward success in several areas of flying with out de valuing the others. Its not a competition, its an incentive system mixed in with an uber plane overuser suppression system. And I still havent seen how a guy that flys 70 hours a week gets more perk planes per flight hour than the same pilot would get for flying 10 hours a week. If it takes 9 hours of flying the way he flys to get enough perk points for an F86, then he will get a Sabre a day. Or a Sabre a week if he has a life. How in hell can it get any fairer then that?
You seem convinced also that it will be a disencentive to play. I think that the players are a pretty competitive lot and will enjoy/be anoyed by the perk planes in the same way they are now and have been by every new plane that comes along.
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pongo.. difference is... if you are anoyed by "any new plane that comes along" you can simply jump in that plane and blow off the steam. In the idiotic perk system you will simply be dodging the damn things. Challenge? maybe but I doubt it. Most will mereley find it annoying and unfair.
As to how it can be fairly implemented.... It is allready implemented so far as awarding the stupid points. Are you saying that it is fair and equal at this point? You feel that bombing an undefended base should be worth 10 times as much as defeating two superior planes in air to air combat?
lazs
lazs
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Thats a bug Lazs It belongs in the bug forum(probably allready noted and fixed), not in the damn the whole system forum. Maybe they will have to reset the perk points to erase all the air to air points I..Err people have accumulated using it. What ever. It does not discredit the whole system just points out that the system is developed by humans, and if you want to play AH get used to seeing bugs in the MA cause changes happpen so fast that we all regression test for HTC.
That same dynamic lets people effect the game to a much greater extent then any other game I have ever heard of. You enjoy effecting the game so why complain about one of the side effects of being able to do so?
Your just waging a spam campaign.
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pongo i love the fact that we have the perception that we are having an affect on the sim but... I would put forth that your, rather than my posts are "spam".
I say that the system is unworkable, clumsy and unfair and point out why. You say... "it's a bug" and that we should just reset all the clumsy, unworkable and unfair idiotic perk points that have been gamed so far? LOL.. So far, with the little bit of the system that has been used, it has been proven to be what I said it was/would be.
Sure... I will wait and see and sure I will point out things as they pop up but why sit on my hands and watch it happen in the mean time? Was it me that made the points so unfair and easy to game or was it me that pointed it out? What "scoring system" for perk points will not allienate a large portion of flying styles... one way or the other? That is what is unworkable. Rewarding your style over mine may very well seem "fair" to you or vice versa but... The only really fair method is for everyone to have the same choices.
lazs