Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: GRUNHERZ on August 31, 2004, 09:28:15 PM
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Whatever anyone else says I will tell you as an immigrant and as one who came here with the experience of communism as a child that he was spot on perfectly accuarte as to my feelings about this great country.
God Bless America!
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God Bless America
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One of the best speeches I've ever heard. If we could get that constitutional amendment I'd bet Arnold would win the '08 election by possibly the biggest landslide ever.
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Arnold was good. The first lady was a sight for sore eyesafter the DNC thats for sure. I never realized how well spoken and fitting she is in that role.
Edwards wife would beat her hands down in a hotdog eating contest though.
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So long as Ice Women supplies the ketchup.
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Optimism; Arnold projects it somewhat like Reagan did.
If I were a Bush strateegereesta, I'd be figuring out how to work Arnold into the campaign on a regular basis. I'd be thinking of slots he could fill in the next admin that I could announce now to trade on his popularity.
If I were a Kerry strateegereesta, I'd be screaming that we had to find a way to unstick from the Vietnam tarbaby and get back on current affairs.
This one promises an interesting two months.
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His speech was moving.....it really was.
Arnold represents what is truely great about this country and what it was founded on.....a new life.
He came here with nothing and now he's a gov. of the WORLDS 5th largest economy. I like everything he said in his speech. He CLEARLY defined what a republican is and mad it crystal that that's were he stands.
He even looked teary eyed.....a GREAT speech!
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He was very good...:)
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Originally posted by GScholz
It was a great speech, but I hope you all realize that it was written by a professional speechwriter (a horde of them I would guess) and performed by an actor that even after more than 30 years in the USA can't speak English properly.
Yes, I realize that...
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Properly or without an accent?
My grandfather came here from Italy about 1912. He lived here almost 80 years and never lost his accent and never failed to make mistakes in his grammar and syntax.
So your point is? What?
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Originally posted by GScholz
performed by an actor that even after more than 30 years in the USA can't speak English properly.
GS I dont appreciate your remaks about his accent... My fathef also speaks with a heavy accent and it's a pretty low blow to focus on that.
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NO! Say it ain't so, Shoeless Joe!
Do politicians actually use SPEECHWRITERS?
OMG, I gotta call CNN and BBC!
BRB!
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Originally posted by GScholz
Why? I think given the same time and job as Arnold, your father probably would speak perfect English.
my wife has lived here for well over 20 years. She moved here when she was 6 from germany. You'd think that after 20 years and learning english as a yong child she'd learn to speak perfect english but she cant even say Massachusets with out trying.
I dont think the Gov. said a single word in his speech that he did not agree with or he wouldnt have said it.
Wow way to be tolerent GS.
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Originally posted by GScholz
Hehe, my point is that even if the speech was great ... it is worthless because all you saw and heard was an actor performing someone else's political "poetry".
So why get excited about the speaches? They're frauds.
so being an actor makes all of your points invalid?
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Frauds?
Because they use the skills of someone more capable to help them express their ideas and beliefs?
I really don't see it that way. For example, I think Kerry would reject a well-written speech if it didn't reflect his ideas and beliefs. Exactly the same with Bush.
You don't think Arnold's speech reflected his beliefs and feelings?
And you, personally knowing so much about Arnold's beliefs and feelings and experiences as an immigrant here, base this on..... what?
The guy gave a good speech. For you to call it fraudulent would put the burden of proof on you, not him.
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Originally posted by GScholz
Why? I think given the same time and job as Arnold, your father probably would speak perfect English.
Your unbelivable ignorance pissses me off.
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...so basically Arnold is nothing but a cut-and-paster...
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chortle... :)
A most excellent troll, Gscholz...
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You go GS! You tell those immigrant bastards! You dont speak English without an accent - youre a NOBODY!
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Originally posted by GScholz
Well ... I'm not going to comment on your wife. I'd just insult you.
This has nothing to do with "tolerance", but with believability.
No Nuke, his points are not invalidated, but they're not his points and when he is a liar by proffession (actor) he naturally can make it very belivable and ... great. Just like Reagan did. That doesn't mean what he says has any more merit than what for instance what your President could blunder his way through in a speech.
It WAS a great speech, and I had lots of fun lintening to him play the audience like ... I do, when I make print commercials at work.
Isult away. It still shows that you are an intolerant bigot. After living in arizona for 5 years I do not just naturally expect people to speak my language.....that is errogant.
my wife may not speak perfect english but she is at least bilingual wich makes her better than me in that aspect.
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Again, the burden of proof would be upon you.
What did he say that you find fraudulent? Or are you just saying that if he espoused any of his parties ideas, that that was fraud?
Or are you just so nihilistic that you can't imagine someone who is not?
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Nice GS, Arnold's whole life story in America is invalidated and "worthless" becausse he gave a political speech and because he speaks with an accent.
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.... finally arrived here in 1968. ........... The presidential campaign was in full swing. ......watching the Nixon and Humphrey.......
I heard Humphrey saying things that sounded like socialism, ................I heard Nixon speak. He was talking about free enterprise, getting government off your back, lowering taxes and strengthening the military. Listening to Nixon speak sounded more like a breath of fresh air.
I said to my friend, "What party is he?" My friend said, "He's a Republican." I said, "Then I am a Republican.......
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My wife is from the former USSR. Been here 7 years. She said the same thing to me when she heard the Democrats speak. Things like "Universal Heathcare, Welfare, taxation for intitlement programs..etc. all adds up to socialism.
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GScholz is jealous GScholz is jealous..nener nener. :lol
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"he did not write the speech himself."
Do the names Sorenson or Goodwin mean anything to you?
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Whatever anyone else says I will tell you as an immigrant and as one who came here with the experience of communism as a child that he was spot on perfectly accuarte as to my feelings about this great country.
God Bless America!
I had no idea you were an immigrant Grun, not as an insult at all but with your political stance I thought you had been born and raised in a hardcore republican family and community. Again Im not trying to be insulting infact I think its great that someone who came and achieved the American dream is willing to stand up for Americas values.
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Anold was awsome. He reminded me of JFK.
:D :aok
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GS, all politicians are actors. Good or bad actors, doesn't matter. Its all about getting the public on your side, and thats acting. I don't believe thats the way to approach serious matters, but unfortunately thats where we in America are at. If it weren't for acting, popularity would be nill - and in the present thats what gets politicians elected.
-SW
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Originally posted by GScholz
My comment on Arnold's bad English was in context with my point that he did not write the speech himself. But by all means, go ahead and take it personal. It was expected.
Politician ... check.
Actor ... check.
Speechwriter ... check.
Cheering crowds ... check.
Me laughing ... check.
I'll wait for the live telecasted debates.
Why wait for the debates? How are they more valid, more pure or meaningful? I'm sure that somebody who acts so smug and smart and informed as you so often do surely knows of the extensive preperation, coaching and debate simulation on every issue and question the candidates recieve before the actual debates. Seeing how critical you are of speech preperation i'm sure you will be equally enthisiastc in denouncing the effects of debate prep..
And you are damn right, it is personal, you insulted the man because of his heavy accent and then more than that. Arnold's story is very much like my father's, they both came here with almost nothing and they both embraced America's full opportunities to succed and improve their lives. Sure arnold is much wealthier and more famous than my father, but I consider it that they had essientaly the same basic story. And yes, they both speak with a heavy accent. So damn right I do take it poersonally, both for attacking his accent and saying his life story was wortless and a fraud just because he made a political speech.
You really seem to have no idea what America is all about.
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""he did not write the speech himself."
Do the names Sorenson or Goodwin mean anything to you?
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Emm ... no. Should they?"
Goggle them with JFK and see what you find.
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I know GS, but you also threw in some tertiary elements that degraded your point and allowed others to attack it.
Just as an aside, I know and work with people who are foreign and have been here for 20+ years. Many of them don't speak proper English, but I understand them because I was atleast educated in languages (don't know them, but understand the basics of them) that allow me the ability to put their words into a sentence I understand. So I wouldn't go after their ability to speak English well, because in the end - that doesn't matter here since we have no official language and I'm willing to cope even though its trying at times.
As far as the speech, didn't see it. I didn't watch the DNC and haven't watched the RNC, simply don't interest me since I care for neither candidates.
BUT, speechwriters are the backbone to every politician and even in the underyling businesses. CEOs and chairmen of small companies even hire speechwriters, it assists them in conveying what they want. I'd be a little worried about someone who didn't have one, because that means they could be a smooth talker (used car salesman) that would end up screwing me in the end.
In the end, politicians come down to the people that truly support them and really make their decisions. Thats why people who vote on a president, but don't pay attention to their cabinet, scare me. They voted based on presentation, not based on those who really guide what happens.
Anywho, getting off topic.
-SW
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No SW using a speechwriter completely invalidates any message you are trying to convey. Get with the times man. :)
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I see Grun, but I'd been locked up in FunkedUp's basement for so long I've been completely disconnected from what's in. Speaking of which, his house is a museum you should avoid if you ever visit him.
-SW
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Originally posted by AKS\/\/ulfe
I see Grun, but I'd been locked up in FunkedUp's basement for so long I've been completely disconnected from what's in. Speaking of which, his house is a museum you should avoid if you ever visit him.
-SW
Too late. :( Put your ear up the cell wall and I'll tap you a morse code message.
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"They were JFK's speechwriters? Did they make him say "I am a doughnut" to the German people? What does these two people have to do with this discussion?"
Just to point out that all politicians use speechwriters and there use, doesn’t make their message a fraud.
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Originally posted by Gyro/T69
Just to point out that all politicians use speechwriters and there use, doesn’t make their message a fraud.
Kennedy was a fraud, he was lying when he said that the USA should go to the moon.
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“Not all politicians use speechwriters. It's just the sad truth that in the USA now every politician must have a PR machine to be successful and get his/her message to the people. Votes are collected on emotions and fine words and ideals rather than action and merit. It says more about the American voter than the politicians though.”
Really, which ones? What comes first? Fine words and ideals or action and merit?
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GS seems to want bureoucrats not inspirational leaders...
Thats fine for a country whoose biggest national problem is how to invest their oil revenues but it's not gonna do for the USA..
Damned oil peddling euro-arabs! :)
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Thank you.
What a greeting!
This is like winning an Oscar! ...As if I would know! Speaking of acting, one of my movies was called "True Lies." It's what the Democrats should have called their convention.
My fellow Americans, this is an amazing moment for me. To think that a once scrawny boy from Austria could grow up to become Governor of California and stand in Madison Square Garden to speak on behalf of the President of the United States that is an immigrant's dream. It is the American dream.
I was born in Europe ...and I've traveled all over the world. I can tell you that there is no place, no country, more compassionate more generous more accepting and more welcoming than the United States of America.
As long as I live, I will never forget that day 21 years ago when I raised my hand and took the oath of citizenship.
Do you know how proud I was? I was so proud that I walked around with an American flag around my shoulders all day long.
Tonight, I want to talk about why I'm even more proud to be an American — why I'm proud to be a Republican and why I believe this country is in good hands.
When I was a boy, the Soviets occupied part of Austria. I saw their tanks in the streets. I saw communism with my own eyes. I remember the fear we had when we had to cross into the Soviet sector. Growing up, we were told, "Don't look the soldiers in the eye. Look straight ahead." It was a common belief that Soviet soldiers could take a man out of his own car and ship him off to the Soviet Union as slave labor.
My family didn't have a car — but one day we were in my uncle's car. It was near dark as we came to a Soviet checkpoint. I was a little boy, I wasn't an action hero back then, and I remember how scared I was that the soldiers would pull my father or my uncle out of the car and I'd never see him again. My family and so many others lived in fear of the Soviet boot. Today, the world no longer fears the Soviet Union and it is because of the United States of America!
As a kid I saw the socialist country that Austria became after the Soviets left. I love Austria and I love the Austrian people — but I always knew America was the place for me. In school, when the teacher would talk about America, I would daydream about coming here. I would sit for hours watching American movies transfixed by my heroes like John Wayne. Everything about America seemed so big to me so open, so possible.
I finally arrived here in 1968. I had empty pockets, but I was full of dreams. The presidential campaign was in full swing. I remember watching the Nixon and Humphrey presidential race on TV. A friend who spoke German and English, translated for me. I heard Humphrey saying things that sounded like socialism, which is what I had just left. But then I heard Nixon speak. He was talking about free enterprise, getting government off your back, lowering taxes and strengthening the military. Listening to Nixon speak sounded more like a breath of fresh air.
I said to my friend, "What party is he?" My friend said, "He's a Republican." I said, "Then I am a Republican!" And I've been a Republican ever since! And trust me, in my wife's family, that's no small achievement! I'm proud to belong to the party of Abraham Lincoln, the party of Teddy Roosevelt, the party of Ronald Reagan (news - web sites) and the party of George W. Bush.
To my fellow immigrants listening tonight, I want you to know how welcome you are in this party. We Republicans admire your ambition. We encourage your dreams. We believe in your future. One thing I learned about America is that if you work hard and play by the rules, this country is truly open to you. You can achieve anything.
Everything I have my career my success my family I owe to America. In this country, it doesn't make any difference where you were born. It doesn't make any difference who your parents were. It doesn't make any difference if, like me, you couldn't even speak English until you were in your twenties.
America gave me opportunities and my immigrant dreams came true. I want other people to get the same chances I did, the same opportunities. And I believe they can. That's why I believe in this country, that's why I believe in this party and that's why I believe in this President.
Now, many of you out there tonight are "Republican" like me in your hearts and in your beliefs. Maybe you're from Guatemala. Maybe you're from the Philippines. Maybe Europe or the Ivory Coast. Maybe you live in Ohio, Pennsylvania or New Mexico. And maybe just maybe you don't agree with this party on every single issue. I say to you tonight I believe that's not only okay, that's what's great about this country. Here we can respectfully disagree and still be patriotic still be American and still be good Republicans.
My fellow immigrants, my fellow Americans, how do you know if you are a Republican? I'll tell you how.
If you believe that government should be accountable to the people, not the people to the government...then you are a Republican! If you believe a person should be treated as an individual, not as a member of an interest group... then you are a Republican! If you believe your family knows how to spend your money better than the government does... then you are a Republican! If you believe our educational system should be held accountable for the progress of our children ... then you are a Republican! If you believe this country, not the United Nations (news - web sites), is the best hope of democracy in the world ... then you are a Republican! And, ladies and gentlemen ...if you believe we must be fierce and relentless and terminate terrorism ... then you are a Republican!
There is another way you can tell you're a Republican. You have faith in free enterprise, faith in the resourcefulness of the American people ... and faith in the U.S. economy. To those critics who are so pessimistic about our economy, I say: "Don't be economic girlie men!"
The U.S. economy remains the envy of the world. We have the highest economic growth of any of the world's major industrialized nations. Don't you remember the pessimism of 20 years ago when the critics said Japan and Germany were overtaking the U.S.? Ridiculous!
Now they say India and China are overtaking us. Don't you believe it! We may hit a few bumps — but America always moves ahead! That's what Americans do!
We move prosperity ahead. We move freedom ahead. We move people ahead. Under President Bush (news - web sites) and Vice President Cheney, America's economy is moving ahead in spite of a recession they inherited and in spite of the attack on our homeland.
Now, the other party says there are two Americas. Don't believe that either. I've visited our troops in Iraq (news - web sites), Kuwait, Bosnia, Germany and all over the world. I've visited our troops in California, where they train before they go overseas. And I've visited our military hospitals. And I can tell you this: Our young men and women in uniform do not believe there are two Americas!
They believe we are one America and they are fighting for it! We are one America — and President Bush is defending it with all his heart and soul!
That's what I admire most about the President. He's a man of perseverance.
He's a man of inner strength. He is a leader who doesn't flinch, doesn't waiver, does not back down. My fellow Americans, make no mistake about it terrorism is more insidious than communism, because it yearns to destroy not just the individual, but the entire international order. The President didn't go into Iraq because the polls told him it was popular. As a matter of fact, the polls said just the opposite. But leadership isn't about polls. It's about making decisions you think are right and then standing behind those decisions. That's why America is safer with George W. Bush as President.
He knows you don't reason with terrorists. You defeat them. He knows you can't reason with people blinded by hate. They hate the power of the individual. They hate the progress of women. They hate the religious freedom of others. They hate the liberating breeze of democracy. But ladies and gentlemen, their hate is no match for America's decency.
We're the America that sends out Peace Corps volunteers to teach village children. We're the America that sends out missionaries and doctors to raise up the poor and the sick. We're the America that gives more than any other country, to fight aids in Africa and the developing world. And we're the America that fights not for imperialism but for human rights and democracy.
You know, when the Germans brought down the Berlin Wall, America's determination helped wield the sledgehammers. When that lone, young Chinese man stood in front of those tanks in Tiananmen Square, America's hopes stood with him. And when Nelson Mandela smiled in election victory after all those years in prison, America celebrated, too.
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(cont)
We are still the lamp lighting the world especially for those who struggle. No matter in what labor camp, they slave no matter in what injustice they're trapped — they hear our call ... they see our light ... and they feel the pull of our freedom. They come here as I did because they believe. They believe in us.
They come because their hearts say to them, as mine did, "If only I can get to America." Someone once wrote — "There are those who say that freedom is nothing but a dream." They are right. It's the American dream.
No matter the nationality, no matter the religion, no matter the ethnic background, America brings out the best in people. And as Governor of the great state of California — I see the best in Americans every day ... our police, our firefighters our nurses, doctors and teachers, our parents.
And what about the extraordinary men and women who have volunteered to fight for the United States of America! I have such great respect for them and their heroic families.
Let me tell you about the sacrifice and commitment I've seen firsthand. In one of the military hospitals I visited, I met a young guy who was in bad shape. He'd lost a leg had a hole in his stomach ... his shoulder had been shot through.
I could tell there was no way he could ever return to combat. But when I asked him, "When do you think you'll get out of the hospital?" He said, "Sir, in three weeks." And do you know what he said to me then? He said he was going to get a new leg ... and get some therapy ... and then he was going back to Iraq to serve alongside his buddies! He grinned at me and said, "Arnold ... I'll be back!"
Ladies and gentlemen, America is back! Back from the attack on our homeland — back from the attack on our economy, back from the attack on our way of life. We're back because of the perseverance, character and leadership of the 43rd President of the United States, George W. Bush.
My fellow Americans ...I want you to know that I believe with all my heart that America remains "the great idea" that inspires the world. It's a privilege to be born here. It's an honor to become a citizen here. It's a gift to raise your family here to vote here and to live here.
Our president, George W. Bush, has worked hard to protect and preserve the American dream for all of us. That's why I say ... send him back to Washington for four more years!
Thank you, America — and God bless you all!
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Originally posted by GScholz
That the words he spoke weren't his own.
And you KNOW this how? If he had a professional speech writer polish his speech does this mean the concept, body and opinions were not his?
Please post the definitive proof that the speech has nothing to do with Arnold's ideals, thoughts or concepts so the rest of the world can gain from your insight.
BTW I am not watching the RNC any more than I watched the DNC. To me it's a bit of overkill since both sides already had chosen both of their cantidates.
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Everything I have my career my success my family I owe to America. In this country, it doesn't make any difference where you were born. It doesn't make any difference who your parents were. It doesn't make any difference if, like me, you couldn't even speak English until you were in your twenties.
Word.
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just as I predicted... the high point of the convention and a great speach...
and... the socialists on this board are beside themselves trying to belittle it and him...
Everyone knows that only big socialist goverment can save us... How dare Arnie flaunt the American dream....
lazs
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Originally posted by GScholz
My comment on Arnold's bad English was in context with my point that he did not write the speech himself. But by all means, go ahead and take it personal. It was expected.
Politician ... check.
Actor ... check.
Speechwriter ... check.
Cheering crowds ... check.
Me laughing ... check.
I'll wait for the live telecasted debates.
How do you know he didn't write his own speech GScholz? You know what they say about assumptions?
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Does this mean that if I use spellchecker,it isn't really my post?:confused:
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Originally posted by GScholz
They were JFK's speechwriters? Did they make him say "I am a doughnut" to the German people? What does these two people have to do with this discussion?
that was Reagn I was stationed in Germany when it happend, and all the other jelly donuts knew what he ment to say.....
Gunns
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Originally posted by Toad
If I were a Bush strateegereesta, I'd be figuring out how to work Arnold into the campaign on a regular basis.
They'd love that, but Arnold recognizes that Bush has done nothing for California and has been reluctant to help.
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Arnie? a former anabolika-powered action actor with a german accent and a communism childhood trauma ;)
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It's a great speach about great ideals, given by someone with firsthand experience how the dream can work for anyone regardless of where they started out in life.
Whether or not the people at the top of the Republican party are properly following those ideals is the reason we vote, the reason why there are primary elections, the reason why the parties reach down to and are ultimately run by people at the local level. Most people sit around and gripe about what one party or another is doing, but so few bother to pick up the phone, call the local party office, and volunteer their time to help make things right.
Arnold answered that call, and he may be the best herald of the American Dream the republican party has seen in decades. Of all the public figures we see on TV, he is one of the few who can truly say they have lived the entire American Dream from the bottom to the top. He could speak those words every day and I'd never get tired of them because they are the essence of what made America. He didn't preach about giving handouts, he didn't speak about filling outstretched hands with bread or providing circuses for the bored masses, he spoke about how America is about providing opportunities for people to fill their own lives, to fulfill their own dreams.
That's the America written about in the constitution. That's the America my parents, grandparents, and great grandparents grew up in. That's the America served by generations of servicemen and policemen in my family. You can get a bowlful of pity in any country in the world, but here you get the freedom to reach your highest potential. Arnold knows that, most honest Americans know it's true deep in their hearts, and maybe it's a message that will continue to be trumpeted beyond the conventions and this election.
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I agree:aok
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Well said eagl.
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Originally posted by -MZ-
They'd love that, but Arnold recognizes that Bush has done nothing for California and has been reluctant to help.
Obviously that's why he agreed to be a key speaker at the convention and clearly and repeatedly declared his support for Bush. The reluctance was really showing through last night.
Eagl, exceptionally well said.
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A lot about accents.
Puhh, all Americans speak with an accent. It's the American accent!
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Originally posted by Toad
Obviously that's why he agreed to be a key speaker at the convention and clearly and repeatedly declared his support for Bush. The reluctance was really showing through last night.
We'll see how much more often they are able to use him.
He vowed to be the "Collectinator" during the campaign, recognizing that California pays way more in federal taxes than it recieves in benefits. So far he has gotten nothing.
And there is no telling how Arnold will play in the sticks if his views on abortion, gay rights, and gun control become more widely known.
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Arnold could have given that speech any time any place in the last 20 years.
I worked in show business in LA for over 10 years.
Just after Arnold made his first movie (that a terrible movie) several of my friends told me, "You have to meet this Arnold guy, he's got great things in his future."
Over the years I've had the opportunity to observe Arnold from the sidelines and in my opinion, he's the real deal.
Don't count on him using a speechwriter and if he did you can be sure the message is his.
It's been so long since we've heard someone who is REALLY passionate about America, we can't recognize the real thing when we see it.
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How many politician's write their own speaches for a national audiance- None
How many are actors-- All of them (most even more poorly then Aanold)
How many politicians are Frauds?-- all of them
As for living in this country and not being able to speak perfect english. Hell there are ALOT of people in this country born and raised here, 3rd 4th 5th and 6th generations who cant properly speak it either
Look at people from the deep south or New Yawk or any of 1,000 different parts of the country.
A good deal of these people not only do not speak it properly. They outright butcher it.
Originally posted by GScholz
My comment on Arnold's bad English was in context with my point that he did not write the speech himself. But by all means, go ahead and take it personal. It was expected.
Politician ... check.
Actor ... check.
Speechwriter ... check.
Cheering crowds ... check.
Me laughing ... check.
I'll wait for the live telecasted debates.
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The things Arnie said about the ideal of America, I believe he really meant. I was glad to see him elected Gov (I've lived in Cali most of the last 15 years). He does embody the American Dream - a dream which many people have seen fade away, unfortunately. I like his optimism, even if his outlook probably isn't realistic for most people. He's a natural leader, and you have to respect that.
But ...
The things he said about the Republican party and Bush I found highly disturbing.
Don't even bother flaming me ... if you can't respect my right to have a different opinion, then you don't understand America much yourself.
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Originally posted by DoKGonZo
Don't even bother flaming me ... if you can't respect my right to have a different opinion, then you don't understand America much yourself.
Since when does that stop anyone?
Thusforth you are dubbed UNAMERICAN.
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DokGonzo supports terrorism! U r wit dem, aginst uhss!
-SW
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You cand always count on a actor to deliver a well written and rehearsed speech with the required amount of emotion.
Comapred to Bush's attempts at speechs it was Osacar winning stuff.
...-Gixer
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Originally posted by Nash
Since when does that stop anyone?
Thusforth you are dubbed UNAMERICAN.
Yeah ... no doubt ... a sad statement indeed.
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Originally posted by gunnss
that was Reagn I was stationed in Germany when it happend, and all the other jelly donuts knew what he ment to say.....
Gunns
Uh, I've seen the film of John F. Kennedy delivering that speech in Berlin. I don't remember seeing or hearing Reagan say it.
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Kennedy said: "Ich bin ein Berliner"
Due to a paticular construct in the german language "ein Berliner" is the name for a type of jelly donut.
The proper words for "I am a Berliner" (as in citizen of Berlin) are:
Ich bin Berliner (no ein)
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No flame doc but... you claim that the American dream is not "realistic" for most people..
What , in your opinion, is "realistic" for most people?
lazs
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(http://www.publicagenda.org/issues/images/welfare/poverty_foodstamps.jpg)
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Originally posted by lazs2
No flame doc but... you claim that the American dream is not "realistic" for most people..
What , in your opinion, is "realistic" for most people?
I said Arnold's optimism and outlook is unrealistic for many people.
Case in point, he said that "if you work hard and play by the rules, this country is truly open to you." I know he believes that, and that's the way it should be.
But I saw too many people who reached for that dream at the end of the 1990's in the tech sector and are now working the check-out at Home Depot - if they can even get that. Lost their houses, many had divorces, their lives are now crap through no fault of their own. And a few I know were seriously contemplating suicide - and that is not a fun conversation to have with someone - you don't forget those.
What do you tell someone who went $100K in debt to get an education, to get that great job, to get the American Dream - what do you tell him when he can't get any job in his field anywhere? And what do you tell him when he sees the very jobs he could do sent offshore, while the executives who shipped those jobs out continue to be the highest rising salary grades in the country?
He played fair, he worked hard - it didn't matter. The game looks rigged. If some of the upper management of these companies had Arnold's outlook on America, maybe they'd act differently - but for now, and for a while, Greed Roolz. And not even corporate greed; selfish personal greed.
I have seen this crap happening personally - it's not from a M. Moore movie. So don't even try to tell me it's not for real.
And that's what I mean about an unrealistic outlook. The evidence that many, many people see every damn day does not support the "play fair and you will win" ethic, or that "everything will be OK."
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But I saw too many people who reached for that dream at the end of the 1990's in the tech sector and are now working the check-out at Home Depot
And this is the fault of the United States Government...!?!?
These people had choices to make and sadly they made bad ones. I feel sorry for them. I lost a lot money in that 'bubble' as well but it was no ones fault but mine.
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when you get knocked down you get back up .. or you can lay there and cry
ur buds think their $100k+ telecommunications jobs were secure? didn't figure at some point, with the ole world wide web and all. they could be replaced for about 1/10 the cost?
think maybe they priced themselves out of a job? I know many who did..
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Did I say it was the govts fault? No.
Did I even mention the govt at all? No.
So it's the workers fault he chose a given career path, instead of the executive who would rather sacrifice a few hundred US jobs than lose his $1M annual bonus? Hmmmm ... is the executive buying a new boat more important than keeping 100 Americans (citizens even!) gainfully employed. What would Arnold say is more important?
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What would happen to the CEO of a company that makes televisions that kept his production in the US when his competitor CEO's moved their production offshore?
In short, what happens to CEO's that keep their companies competitive in the marketplace?
Free trade. We wanted it, now we've got it.
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Originally posted by Toad
What would happen to the CEO of a company that makes televisions that kept his production in the US when his competitor CEO's moved their production offshore?
In short, what happens to CEO's that keep their companies competitive in the marketplace?
Free trade. We wanted it, now we've got it.
More or less ... yes.
But if there's $1M's to pay executive bonuses and salaries, why isn't it in the company's interest to retain the US jobs instead? If the executives and officers were taking pay cuts I could buy this argument much easier. But they ain't.
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Dok, give this a read.
http://slate.msn.com/?id=2067952
The problem as I see it.
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Originally posted by DoKGonZo
Did I say it was the govts fault? No.
Did I even mention the govt at all? No.
So it's the workers fault he chose a given career path, instead of the executive who would rather sacrifice a few hundred US jobs than lose his $1M annual bonus? Hmmmm ... is the executive buying a new boat more important than keeping 100 Americans (citizens even!) gainfully employed. What would Arnold say is more important?
That CEO earns his bonus by ensuring the share holders make a decent profit. Those share holders are folks like me and many millions of other average Americans.
Neither the share holders nor the CEO's will make any money on a company that isn’t profitable. A company can’t be profitable selling a pair of socks at 4 dollars a pair if another company sells 3 pair for .99 cents. That is the same for all businesses in every industry. In fact despite “outsourcing” and the loss of manufacturing jobs the American economy hasn’t declined it has grown.
It’s not the CEO's fault if a worker chooses a career path and then prices himself out of a job. It's not the CEO responsibility to simply maintain "jobs". He is responsible to the share holders who expect to make a profit on their investment. The more money they make, the more he makes.
It’s rather silly to expect a company / government to "take care of us". Why should I be forced to subsidize a telecom worker’s career through higher pricing? For one I wont, I will simple go with a cheaper service. I certainly would not invest in a company that doesn’t seek to maximize profit.
Those executives get paid to make money even if it pisses you off. All the recent “unethical” and “criminal behavior” aside, this is how it works.
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"why isn't it in the company's interest to retain the US jobs instead? "
There's no incentive to keep them here. Quite the opposite
http://www.aflcio.org/yourjobeconomy/jobs/ns03312004a.cfm
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"Neither the share holders nor the CEO's will make any money on a company that isn’t profitable."
The shareholders perhaps but there are a lot of stinking rich Enron and Worlcom executives laughing from the comfort of thier large estates and opulant vacation homes. And that's just two of the more infamous companies that went recently went down the tubes while thier execs got paid handsomely.
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All the recent “unethical” and “criminal behavior” aside, this is how it works
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Originally posted by Westy
"why isn't it in the company's interest to retain the US jobs instead? "
does it boil back to the consumer? US - you and me
you ready to pay at least 4x as much for something made here than overseas in the name of US jobs? not many are and thus the move to cheap labor ... unions to share some of the responsibility too or is it all the "CEo and his million dollar bonus" fault - LOL
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Absolutely. Many of the unions and thier insane practices of getting absurdly high hourly wages for unskilled, brainless work were responsible too.
But let's think deeper and broader here (try and follow me Archie. I know it's not your best strength). What came first? Repressive, greedy corporations or workers unions?
One of these days "Archie" you'll manage to do more than jibber jab your way through a topic.
oh, er.
- LOL
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Originally posted by Westy
"why isn't it in the company's interest to retain the US jobs instead? "
There's no incentive to keep them here. Quite the opposite
http://www.aflcio.org/yourjobeconomy/jobs/ns03312004a.cfm
Wonderful.
Look, two points that are important to consider.
One is that any time you take work done on your campus and farm it out, you lose a little. Either you lose core competency, you lose control over process, you lose timely intelligence about what's going on, etc.. Even just farming out tech supt is risky because a lot of US customers want an American-sounding voice on the other end of the phone. So while this helps "the bottom line" it erodes the company. I'm sorry - that's what happens. Outsourcing is not the same as buying another company and absorbing their skillset.
And second is what I mentioned before. If there are $M's around to pay bonuses and all that, why isn't it more important to use that money to keep your business inside your own walls? You can't say it's economically sound to ship jobs offshore to save money, and at the same time be paying out $M's to the guys who just did it. Viewed from the bottom up, it looks like some fat-cat just got a bonus for laying me off (and, no, I wasn't layed off).
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Originally posted by Westy
Absolutely. Many of the unions and thier insane practices of getting absurd high hourly wages for unskilled brainless work were responsible too.
But let's think deeper and broader here (try and follow me Archie. I know it's not your best strength). What came first? Repressive, greedy corporations or workers unions?
One of these days "Archie" you'll manage to do more than jibber jab your way through a topic.
I agree on Unions. Try to get a light bulb changed at Hughes or Lockheed and watch the gears churn.
Who am be Archie?
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Union$.
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Archie Bunker is Eagler. The way Eagler "discusses" issues here is frighteningly identical to the character Carrol O'Connor played on t.v.
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(http://www.timewarptoys.com/apin.jpg)
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"Don't be economic girlie men!"
anyone find that as funny as me ..... :rofl
so he's Governor of the most populous state in the union? LOL!
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who do the unions support Jughead?
why?
didn't you just say they caused their own problem? sorta like robin boy eddie gonna fix health care now AFTER he became a millionaire screwing it up -- LOL
couple of winners you have there, let me tell ya - LOL
LANDSLIDE BUSH!
(http://www.usembassy.org.uk/images/bush289.jpg)
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Originally posted by Westy
Archie Bunker is Eagler. The way Eagler "discusses" issues here is frighteningly identical to the character Carrol O'Connor played on t.v.
Oh ... got it ... "Shut up you meathead" Archie.
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""Shut up you meathead" Archie."
Exactly.
Although I've not actually heard him call anyone here a heeb, via text anyway, I cannot vouch for what he does or doesn't spew at tthe monitor while he madly types away.
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Of course, without Unions the high-paying jobs you bemoan wouldn't pay nearly so highly. The benefits like vacation, healthcare and job safety would be much closer to what Chinese workers are getting.
It's just not simple is it? Very tough to "have it all".
You want good high-paying jobs in the US? Are you willing to pay more?
You want to be competitive with the Chinese laborer? Say goodbye to most of your benefits and certainly your high pay.
Want to blame it all on the CEO's? Fine, but how will you change it short of dictating CEO pay?
It's a fine mess we're in Olly. It's never again going to be like it was.
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Toad - Maybe....
LOS ANGELES TIMES
September 2, 2004
Joe Mathews, Times Staff Writer
NEW YORK — With his speech endorsing President Bush a hit among Republicans at their national convention, Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger may take his message on the road this fall to a key electoral state: Ohio.
The governor's chief of staff, Patricia Clarey, said late Tuesday that she had discussed the possibility of an appearance there with Bush campaign strategist Karl Rove and campaign manager Ken Mehlman. She said a decision on an appearance was not final and would depend on the governor's schedule and the president's political needs at the time.
"It's definitely on the table," Clarey said.
The move would be a departure from Schwarzenegger's reluctance until now to campaign for Bush outside California. It would put Schwarzenegger in a state in which he has long-standing business and personal ties — specifically to Columbus, a political bellwether. No Republican has won the presidency without Ohio.
......
http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-arnold2sep02,1,2515984.story?coll=la-headlines-nation (http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-arnold2sep02,1,2515984.story?coll=la-headlines-nation)
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Toad, that is a bit of a stretch to say without Unions we would have benefits resembling what Chinese workers get.
Unions had thier place, and they were needed at one point in time. They served to solve a problem. A problem brought about by greed.
They have, themselves, now become a problem due to greed.
Somewhere, there is a compromise. I do not know where it is, but there is one somewhere.
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Ok doc... now I see...
If a guy spends 100k on an education he should automaticly have a better job than the unwashed and he shouldn't have to ever work in any other field? He is supposed to be guaranteed a high paying job in that field forever?
If that field collapses then the only thing open for him is home depot where there is no chance that he could ever get ahead?
I didn't go to college... maybe that is why my outlook is so different. well... that's not entirely true... I did go to school at night for the jobs I chose and even the ones that chose me... didn't cost 100k tho...so... probly not worthy..
lazs
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"Want to blame it all on the CEO's? Fine, but how will you change it short of dictating CEO pay?"
It's not that black and white Toad and dictating CEO pay is not the answer.
Neither is patting them on the back and giving them a reward by way of a tax break for sending jobs over seas.
Neither is the administrations handing to corporations their long sought after tools to eliminate overtime pay for over 6 million hard working Americans
I'm not blaming it all on the execs and I'm not ignoring the damage the unions did either. But if the unions erred by helping to "create" an economy where a light bulb engineer was paid $80 to change a customers burned out bulb you can be sure the corporation were as culpable, if not more, by submitting a bill for $320.00 to that customer.
Unions IMO were an absolute necessity back in the late 1800's. However what most of them eventually became was as corrupt and self serving as the greedy, abusive people they were supposedly protecting the workers from. IMO unions are still as needed today because of the tendency for too many of our government leaders to be "owned" by some corporation.
One thing is for sure though. The corporate execs that will take a pay cut or passed on a bonus to help his company stay competitive is so rare that you may as well say they don't exist.
In the meantime unions stewards break it to their membership that their wages are being cut, or they're being layed laid off and in too many cases the factories are closing.
Am I willing to pay more? Yes. The quality better be there though or no I won't.
(just an fyi I'm not in a union nor have I been in one for well over 20 years when I was a teenager and bagged groceries for customers in a supermarket. I prefer my current non-salary, non commission situation where I earn a good pay and I am rewarded by the quality of the work I do. but I now fit into one of those "gray" categories and stand to lose out on my overtime. That loss amounts to a lot more $$$ than a minimum wage worker stands to gain. So how does THAT help the economy? It doesn't. I cannot fathom how they can excuse handing OT to one group (that needs it) while taking it way from an equal number of peoples who make more and who’s overall contribution to the free market economy is greater.)
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Skuzzy, note that one my sayings is "The only thing worse than a Union is ..... no Union."
I don't think one can view things so statically. The Management/Labor relationship is much more of a pendulum.
Like every pendulum, there is a period of extreme swing and then it slowly damps towards the middle. Until some force comes along and again pushes the pendulum to an extreme and the process starts all over again.
Which came first worker abuse or Unions? Abuse. Without the abuses, the sweat shops, the danger of the coal mines, etc., etc., the never would have been a "Union movement". Management pushed the pendulum to such an extreme point that another force arose and pushed it back.
Of course, Labor, in it's turn, pushed the pendulum to an extreme and .... we can all guess what happened next.
So, where are we now? Forces have combined to push the pendulum towards an extreme. Call it what you like, job outsourcing, CEO greed, "fair trade", "technological shift".... whatever you like. But the pendulum is swinging in favor of management once again.
The evidence is before us all in the form of lost jobs, reduced pay, reduced health care benefits, etc. Right now, because of the easy availability of cheap Labor in the world wide "free trade" market, American workers and/or Unions are essentially powerless. The jobs will simply be moved to Mexico or China or somewhere else if the Union "demands" are considered "too great".
Now, to say that we're not heading towards the pay/benefits of Chinese workers is sticking one's head in the sand. I did not say were were at that level, or that we would reach that level.
But it's clear which way the pendulum is swinging. Anyone hear of recent big pay raises/benefit improvements for large groups of American workers lately? No, the "talk" is the exact opposite of that. We hear of pay cuts and reduced benefits.
I will say this: the only thing that stands between the American worker and lower levels of pay and benefits are the Unions.
Make no mistake; I think Unions suck. I was in one for 23 years, worked in it, lived with it. However, I am not so naive as to think that American CEO's will look out for the American worker and improve the worker's lot if there were no Unions.
I totally agree. Unions had their place, and they were needed at one point in time. They served to solve a problem. A problem brought about by greed. They have, themselves, now become a problem due to greed.
Yet they will be needed again at a new point in time. The will again have their place. Because of a problem brought about by greed. This time, it will be management greed once again moving the pendulum.
Checks and balances.
"The only thing worse than a Union is ..... no Union."
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I hate to think that the only way to keep things in check is by the use of Unions. We are screwed if that is the case.
There has to be a better way.
If Unions were about the jobs, benefits, and taking care of the employee so they were not put in harms way, either financially, physically, or mentally then I would be behind them.
They are not longer about that though. That is a subset of what they do. The impact Unions have on our country is mind boggling. They have thier fingers in so many pies it is scary.
There has to be a better way.
EDIT: We have gotten off the topic a bit. I am going to stop posting in this now.
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"Of course, without Unions the high-paying jobs you bemoan wouldn't pay nearly so highly. The benefits like vacation, healthcare and job safety would be much closer to what Chinese workers are getting. "
The Toadster isn't that of the mark I don’t have the info at my fingertips, but as I remember reading about a local company was doing away with sick time pay for their employees. What caught my attention was the fact that, that company outsourced other company’s jobs. I’ll see if I can find it.
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Skuzzy, yeah maybe another thread.
Still, in the early days of US industrialization, the government was totally uninvolved and there were no Unions.
Where did that lead? To an abysmal life on and off the job for the American working class.
The government alone has been able to make some positive changes.
The Unions alone have been able to make some positive changes.
The government WITH the Unions has been able to make some positive changes.
But taken in toto, neither the Unions or the government would have had much effect acting alone.
So what's different now?
It's clear the government alone can't protect the American worker.
It's clear the Unions alone can't protect the American worker.
Nothing's really changed. We're going to have to have Unions or it will get much worse.
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haven't modern labor laws circumvented the original need for unions?
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Originally posted by Westy
""Shut up you meathead"
you said it :)
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Originally posted by lazs2
Ok doc... now I see...
If a guy spends 100k on an education he should automaticly have a better job than the unwashed and he shouldn't have to ever work in any other field? He is supposed to be guaranteed a high paying job in that field forever?
...
Did I say that? No.
Want to take the $100K education out of the equation? OK. Lets say someone joined the U.S. Military to get his education. Put in 3 or 5 years to get as much education as he could. Had a nice little field trip to Iraq along the way. Lets say when his service is over he gets a job in hospital administation (so it's not even a tech job). Guess what ... he's screwed too if that department is outsourced.
The person in this example "worked hard and played by the rules" - and served his country - and he's just another statistic. Do you want to be the one to tell him he was wrong to spend several years of his life in the military getting an education? You want to tell him that its his fault for making the wrong choice?
Arnold's depiction of America is what the ideal is, was, and should be. Come here with nothing (or be born here with nothing), work your butt off, get an education, get a good job ... whatever ... and you can prosper.
But then along come swine like Ken Lay and oops, there goes everything you worked for all your life. Your own fault for investing in the stock market.
Or along comes some very, very suspicious "offshore development" agreements and oops, there goes your job. Your own fault for going into the field that fueled the boom of the 90's.
Or along comes an executive staff with uber bonuses for stock performance and oops, your whole department is outsourced to "save money". Your own fault for thinking that 10 years of dedicated service meant a damn.
Sure, you can say that stuff happens. But, come on.
(Yes, Skuzzy, we've wandered off topic ... but in a good way.)
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I know Doc, and it would be a pretty good thread to start. Seems there are some level headed people who would like to discuss this.
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Originally posted by Gunslinger
I dont think the Gov. said a single word in his speech that he did not agree with or he wouldnt have said it.
Wow way to be tolerent GS.
I'm not liking to hear GS's sarcasm, but he has a point: nearly all great speeches are as much the product of good speech writers as much as the substance of the person delivering it. Because of that they're suspect. (the speeches, that is). Still, it was a moving speech, and delivered with great conviction, I believe.
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Originally posted by Eagler
haven't modern labor laws circumvented the original need for unions?
No. All you need do is look at a heavily regulated job like a "commuter pilot" and you'll see that even FAA regs don't begin to provide a good, safe working environment. It's only recently that their rest requirements even began to approach "sufficient" and I personally don't think they are there yet.
Very few jobs are regulated at all, let alone to that degree. So there you go.
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Originally posted by DoKGonZo
...Arnold's depiction of America is what the ideal is, was, and should be. Come here with nothing (or be born here with nothing), work your butt off, get an education, get a good job ... whatever ... and you can prosper.
But then comes along...
I think Arnold's depiction is still pretty accurate. When huge obsticles occur in life, it's the people who are willing to work hard that are the most likely to overcome them and succeed in spite of them. Even with the setbacks, in most cases they're still better off than they were when they began pursuing their dream.
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What do you guys think about all the farm jobs we lost in past 100 years because technology made them unncesasry? Was America destroyed?
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Grun, wouldn't that be a good thread. This one is already a multi-headed beast.
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
What do you guys think about all the farm jobs we lost in past 100 years because technology made them unncesasry? Was America destroyed?
We should have lost nearly all of them, but our farm subsidies have managed to destroy competition abroad and brought a swarm of illegals here.
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Wait.... MZ are you saying we don't subscribe to "free trade" when it comes to farming?
I'm shocked.
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I've been away. Does anyone have a text of the speech or even better a copied webcast of it?
Google has just given me commentary.
Cheers!
ravs
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Originally posted by ravells
I've been away. Does anyone have a text of the speech or even better a copied webcast of it?
Google has just given me commentary.
Cheers!
ravs
look at the 2nd page of this thread, I posted it there
(http://www.georgewbush.com/images/downloads/GWB_logo_100.gif)
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Originally posted by ravells
I've been away. Does anyone have a text of the speech or even better a copied webcast of it?
Google has just given me commentary.
Cheers!
ravs
It was a great speech, regardless of your views. It's too bad there isn't an audio link. The transcript doesn't do it justice.
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It's on http://www.foxnews.com is you can force yourself to go there :)
Video
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well doc.. I suppose that I am missing the point... are you saying that joining the military to get an education should guarentee you a great job for the rest of your life? Was the whole time just a waste of a few years if you don't?
Your heart must really bleed for them poor buggy whip makers who spent years as aprentices and now....
construction is about dead too as a high paying job... when I was younger you could make a bunch as a simple laboror or painter. Now... we have people willing to do the grunt work of sheetrock and paint and all for $10 an hour. I made more than that 30 years ago.
If your friends skills are so easily taken over by cheap labor....
there aint nothin the government can do to protect them... not for long anyway.
I know that is probly not a popular sentiment on this board with so many technicals but it is the facts... if your job can be done by someone for cheaper... it probly will be. Your education gives you a chance to compete... nothing more. The guy who works harder and does the same thing for less is gonna bump you off the ladder. You need a new path (mixing metaphors here).
you can't make buggy whips or be a sheetrocker or taper or painter or even a roofer anymore and expect to get top dollar in a lot/most of areas.
You can be a techie and work for microsoft and get rich still tho.
you can still do really well in construction... just not the same old ways.
lazs
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Arrgh! Can't find it on the fox news site, Gyro...do you have a more specific link? I did a search in the site 'Arnold speech' and got lots of commentary again.
yours in frustration,
Ravs
Eagler...I read the transcript, and it is indeed a terrific speech, but I want to hold fire until I've seen the delivery (if I can) I'll keep trying to find it.
Ravs
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It was under video last night. Don't see it now.
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OK, then I'll go by the transcript Eagler posted. (thanks for looking again, Gyro)
It seems to me that this is a speech given by someone who wants to be the next republican president after Bush. I found it self serving to Arnold in every possible way. Sure, he stroked your feathers as a country (as he should), but in the end it said these things:
1. I was an immigrant and I came to America.
2. By dint of hard work I did well.
3. I hate terrorism.
4. Oh, and by the way, I think George Bush is a good President.
I don't mean to decry his sincerity, but in many ways his speech seperates him from Bush: I was poor (Bush wasn't), I was an immigrant (Bush wasn't), I worked hard to get where I am today (Bush didn't). It's an incredibly cunning speech.
My views of Arnold? Well, he is hardworking and ambitious and most of all he had some lucky breaks (there are many who emigrate to countries who work very hard and end up with broken dreams). That said, I don't see him as an analyst. I do think that if he can pull off the trick of being the next republican president, he'll really have done something special.
Arnold poses a peculiar problem for the Republicans. He was made by Hollywood, but from what I can see, most of Hollywood are left wing by nature and the Republicans tend to belittle 'Hollywood actor views'. It will be interesting to see how he casts off that cloak, because if he does, my word...it will be that film come true (Back to the Future?), where Arnold IS the president of America!
Ravs
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Originally posted by ravells
I do think that if he can pull off the trick of being the next republican president, he'll really have done something special.
He sure would have done something special, since an immigrant can't be President.
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Not even an immigrant who has obtained citizenship?
:confused:
Ravs
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Originally posted by ravells
Not even an immigrant who has obtained citizenship?
:confused:
Ravs
Nope.
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So why is he trying to distance himself from Bush?
The speech reeks of it.
Ravs
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Originally posted by ravells
So why is he trying to distance himself from Bush?
The speech reeks of it.
Ravs
I didn't get that from the speech at all.
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Here http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,130680,00.html
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Originally posted by lazs2
well doc.. I suppose that I am missing the point... are you saying that joining the military to get an education should guarentee you a great job for the rest of your life? Was the whole time just a waste of a few years if you don't?
...
Step back from the problem.
Arnold's premise is "work hard, play by the rules, and you can prosper." Right?
But more and more we're seeing that folks who don't play by the rules we were taught growing up are raking in mega bucks at the expense of everyone else. Is Ken Lay even in jail yet? I've lost track.
Not 20 years ago a lot of companies had "no lay-off" policies. Believe it or not. And they were a lot more interested in hiring people and training them if they weren't the perfect fit - especially if that person showed the potential to be a long-term employee. Nowadays, that just isn't the case. This seemingly endless recession is part of it, but also its that companies aren't built to last anymore - they're built to flip and go public as soon as possible.
Bottom line is that what Arnie described is the way things were, and the way we want them to be, but not the way it is since about 1998.
Who's to blame? Like I know? I don't believe either party ... or the media (save for Jon Stewart :D ... that is if Comedy Central counts as the "media"). Both parties see this as a big game and it makes me purely sick. I really don't care who's to blame anymore ... I just these morons to stop waving their privates at each other and fix the damn problems. Fixing what's wrong is their job, afterall.
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Thanks, Gyro!
Saw the cast...he has a politician's hands. Very rehearsed, very wooden. For me the written speech was better. LOL! I'd have probably voted Nixon after the radio debate rather than Kennedy.
Martlett: it was a very subtle speech. If you look through all the BS, (after all you could substitute Democrat for Republican for half the speech, since he was talking about the American Way at those points), Arnold is saying...I am NOT Bush, in fact I'm the furthest thing from him (actually it's what he doesn't say which is meaningful), but I'm STILL a Republican.
The guy's after something alright, and it's more than the governership of California.
Ravs
[edit] and if you read Gonzo's post above...Bush is someone who is perceieved as NOT having worked hard and played by the rules to get to his position (whether rightly or wrongly)..If Arnie can't be Pres, then I suspect he'll be putting his weight behind someone very unbushlike at some point. I suspect he already knows who that person will be. [edit again] in fact... it may be that he is the herald of the Republican party who are saying that Bush is past his sell by date.
Ravs
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Welcome :)
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Originally posted by ravells
Thanks, Gyro!
Saw the cast...he has a politician's hands. Very rehearsed, very wooden. For me the written speech was better. LOL! I'd have probably voted Nixon after the radio debate rather than Kennedy.
Martlett: it was a very subtle speech. If you look through all the BS, (after all you could substitute Democrat for Republican for half the speech, since he was talking about the American Way at those points), Arnold is saying...I am NOT Bush, in fact I'm the furthest thing from him (actually it's what he doesn't say which is meaningful), but I'm STILL a Republican.
The guy's after something alright, and it's more than the governership of California.
Ravs
Only time will tell. That's a pretty oft heard message in this campaign, though. It isn't always a clue that someone is after personal gain. Zell Miller said much the same thing. What's he after?
Bush is far too liberal on many issues for my tastes. I still support him, though. You have to decide what issues are most important to you and vote with the candidate that matches them. For many, the single most important issue is the war on terror. For those that fall into that category, Bush is the only answer, regardless of where you fall on other issues.
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My thinking is that eventually the Republican Grandees intend to replace Bush with someone who is actually more 'anti- big government' as far as home politics goes but actually more acceptable internationally in terms of Foreign Policy (it's good for business).
As you say....we shall see, but Arnie was a good indication of that happening.
Ravs
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well... doc, as I see it... the work market is changing.. you can't keep the world out and expect to sell to it at the same time... you can't expect to do one thing that you learned 20 years ago in maybe a tenth of the 2-6 years you spent at a school... Most of the time was spent learning things you will never use and the rest was used learning someething that was in a class that was outdated before you even signed up.
You can still make it but you have to work hard after school. Some jobs now require certification... mine does... the certification requires continueing education and recertification. maybe that is the way tech jobs need to go... no current certificate.... no job.
I know about 4 really well off people and none of them finished in the trade they started..
As for going to school and staying in a job as long as you like.... It can still be done... you can be a doctor they need plenty... No? not for4 everyone... engineer... Last I heard we can't get enough engineers but... they work regular hours and have to keep up... not exactly a computer job.
Lots of trades can go the traditional route of school and job security. lots can't.
Whos fault is it? maybe no ones.. maybe it is evolutionary like the buggy whip.. Maybe it is the schools that are failing you? if schools in India turn out perfectly good techies then maybe we need to do better.
lazs