Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: FiLtH on September 01, 2004, 12:10:09 AM
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Why should i take damage by hitting a friendly? It makes NO SENSE!
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There will probably be a dozen reasons posted why the killshooter should remain on, but I'd be ok if it were off.
I'm not that great of a shot and have killed myself a few times trying to clear a friendly's six, especially if the friendly is in a bomber.
OTOH, I suppose it is good in the sense that at least some of the people chasing me must have killshot themselves at one point or another trying to hit me.
shrug.
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Hey, if it keeps a 'shoulder shooter' honest - so be it.
BTW - and to all you shoulder shooters - you're supposed to
clear my six, not my twelve :eek:
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Originally posted by ebgb
Hey, if it keeps a 'shoulder shooter' honest - so be it.
BTW - and to all you shoulder shooters - you're supposed to
clear my six, not my twelve :eek:
SO true was on a la7 running from base 2.0 out and guy behind me is fireing at him 1k behind me lol. Then I go to 145 fight cv cons in a spit 5 on a f6f's 6 i had 3 guys behind me shooting over me to try to kill. then watch 2 auger trying to shoot his pc's lol. leave kill shoot ON i like cutting in front of porks to kill them to get them to stop porking a capped base.........
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Out of the 3 times Ive killed myself this way, the 1st was when I first started and didnt know why I died when I hit a guy in front. The last two times has been when a friendly jumps down in front of me, between me and my target. Im shooting and he passes right in front of my guns. Im to suffer for that?
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To be perfectly honest - I never shoulder shoot personally. It's my superior tactical manuevering that puts me in front of their plane every time.
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Originally posted by FiLtH
Why should i take damage by hitting a friendly? It makes NO SENSE!
Noobs-runway-gotta fire guns-end of story.
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I vote for it on. ( A dozen reasons, I couldnt be bothered repeating)
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Filth, how long have you been flying sir?
I know you were in the AH2 Beta.
So your talking at least 6 months right?
And you have exactly 3 cases where killshooter came into play, correct?
How many times would you have died if killshooter wasn't on?
Each of those guys that was shooting past you to kill the con in front could have killed you instead of themselves. Theres a couple right there.
Killshooter NEEDS to be here.
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Originally posted by Ghosth
Killshooter NEEDS to be here.
I agree, I have been chased a couple of times by friendly icons who were apparently new to the game and just upped from the same field. Just blazing away at me, it is a great way to introduce them to killshooter. :D
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i still think a good solution would be for both shooter and shootee to take damage with the shooter still taking the "extra/focused" damage as current (unless this has changed?).
:D
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or when some guy is sitting in an ack vultching friendlies as they land. It was off once in the CT. It was a disaster.
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Originally posted by storch
or when some guy is sitting in an ack vultching friendlies as they land. It was off once in the CT. It was a disaster.
tell me about it!! friendly fire off in CT and using no icons for "immersion" played havoc with GV's!!! :rofl
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Was twisting and turning with a/c all over the place when I pulled a sensational snap shot in a major furball against a spit that flashed in front of me the other week, and promptly blew my own wing off....
better me than him for my failure to properly ID a friendly...
Tronsky
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this might be a silly question but is it possible to kill youself if you and a bunch of guys are in bombers and one of the friendly bombers is right under you as you drop your bombs, could your bombs hit his aircraft killing you?
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Ghosth I got here in June. If friendly fire was off...totally off...I wouldnt have died at all if friendlies were hitting me, or me them. Some of you make it sound like Im sitting behind someone following them around chasing a guy, blazin away, and shooting my wings off.
Its the guy that drops in front of me while Im shooting that gets hit by my fire.
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I came here thinking it was the friendly acks on bases and carriers that were being whined about, I planned on joining the whine.
But you mean Killshooter...leave it just as it is please.
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please leave killshooter ON
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I thought the idea of instead of taking damage you lose all your ammo to be a great one.
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Leave it on.
Lotta reasons for it certainly more reasons to keep it then get rid of it
And from what I've witnessed, 95% of all killshooters are the shooters own fault
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Originally posted by FiLtH
Its the guy that drops in front of me while Im shooting that gets hit by my fire.
All due respect. Poor SA your part. and possibly gun dicipline
Maintain SA by looking around form time to time and Listen for engines. That arent your own.
You should be doing this anyway in case there are badguys around.
Unless your target is cant miss point blank. Dont spray
Fire in short bursts only. this alone will reduce the likelyhood of you hitting anything that jumps in front of you because you can stop shooting.
And dont fire at the guy who the guy in front of you is firing at. Unless you have an absolutely clear shot
Poor form and bad manners
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Originally posted by Edbert MOL
I came here thinking it was the friendly acks on bases and carriers that were being whined about, I planned on joining the whine.
But you mean Killshooter...leave it just as it is please.
I occasionally hear this complaint but never ever had it happen to me in over 2 1/2 years. Not even one time.
You sure its friendly ack and not an enemy in a FP or a stray bullet from an enemy plane?
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Originally posted by DREDIOCK
You sure its friendly ack and not an enemy in a FP or a stray bullet from an enemy plane?
Yup, only happened once or twice to me in almost 5 years from field ack. The CV acks are another story. Take off from a CV while the acks are firing at a low con (topedo plane) and it will happen roughly 50% of the time. Obviously less of a problem when the acks are firing upwards though.
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Why have it cause any damage? Friendly fire in most cases is an accident so why should anyone pay. If it's not gonna damage the victim then why should it damage the shooter. No harm no foul right?
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i agree leave killshooter on......
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Leave killshooter on...
BUT take out the ability of gunners to land kills from damaged bombers.
;)
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Originally posted by Coolridr
Why have it cause any damage? Friendly fire in most cases is an accident so why should anyone pay. If it's not gonna damage the victim then why should it damage the shooter. No harm no foul right?
Strangely enough, I think killshooter is important to realism. In actual combat, you wouldn't be able to shoot if a friendly was in the way. Why should you be able to blast away through a friendly to get a kill? As to the question of who takes damage, I figure that the shooter getting the damage is a fair approximation of the court-marshal that would follow shooting down a friendly.
--Peregrine.
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Originally posted by Ghosth
Filth, how long have you been flying sir?
Killshooter NEEDS to be here.
if it NEEDS to be here, then punish both sides, not just 1. BOTH are at fualt, so both should take the punishment.
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Originally posted by Coolridr
Why have it cause any damage? Friendly fire in most cases is an accident so why should anyone pay. If it's not gonna damage the victim then why should it damage the shooter. No harm no foul right?
Wrong I'm afraid. If it doesn't do damage then it doesn't give any reason to not shoot past friendlies. That completely distorts the air combat and makes the defensive fighter's job much, much harder.
Those of you who suffer frequent KS incidents need to look to why that is. I hear constant complaints of "He flew in front of me while I was shooting." In the 4+ years I've played AH I have only had a few instances of people do that and only once did it result in a KS incident for me. I have died due to KS less than 10 times and I am not particularly timid.
I'm sorry, but I can only conclude that you are not paying enough attention to what is going on around you, both enemy and friendly wise.
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Originally posted by whels
if it NEEDS to be here, then punish both sides, not just 1. BOTH are at fualt, so both should take the punishment.
Come whels ... u must be joking or trolling.
I am D200 off someone's 6 and just about to get a guns solution when you decide to start shooting over my shoulder. While you are shooting over my shoulder, you hit me ... I should be damaged because your a fool ... I don't think so !!!
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Killshooter forces realistic flying and gunnery behavior through an unrealistic gameplay feature. It's not going to change.
-- Todd/Leviathn
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I think if someone gets more than a couple pings on a friendly he shouldnt take any damage, but his guns should be disabled for lets say 15 seconds or so. I personally hate killshooter. Last nite we had Outkast dropping F-Bombs over VOX because he was stupid and shot himself down. There should be a penalty, but it shouldn't be taking damage. Disabling your ability to fire for a few seconds would be good enough IMO.
Oh and speaking of VOX....lets please have an easier way to squelch people. Maybe have a key kind of like check 6. If they are in your center view you can just press a button to squelch them and unsquelch them.
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Killshooter is an integral part of the Vulcher - Vulchee relationship.
Without Killshooter, us Vulchees would never get any kills!
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KS is needed, ever spawn on the runway only to see a 'friendly newbie' trying to vulch you?
It's happened to me twice in the past few days, kind of comical though.
Without KS I'd have been pissed and he would have been the victim of a retalitory butt whoopin' over and over if he didn't get it.
OTOH, maybe HT should try turning it off, there's not enough 'dweeb hunts' in AH these days.
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I think a lot of you guys are missing the point...I dont think anyone is asking for Friendly Fire to be left on while removing killshooter. I think what they are asking for is to disable friendly damage of any kind.
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Originally posted by BigR
I think what they are asking for is to disable friendly damage of any kind.
Simply turning off friendly damage (either to another or to oneself) leads to a whole batch of unrealistic behaviors.
-- Todd/Leviathn
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Yah, I agree with you. That's why my favorite option would be to disable Guns for a few seconds if you ping a friendly.
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There should be no KS between friendly AC and GV. Last night I was chasing a La7 on the deck-I fired my cannon and got him but a couple of my rounds went through him hitting a friendly panzer and I fragged myself. :D
A2A KS is fine as it is...
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Originally posted by HUN
There should be no KS between friendly AC and GV. Last night I was chasing a La7 on the deck-I fired my cannon and got him but a couple of my rounds went through him hitting a friendly panzer and I fragged myself. :D
A2A KS is fine as it is...
Which is not fair cause an Osti can ping away at frienly A/C and not suffer any damage...tested it once:D
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Originally posted by BigR
Yah, I agree with you. That's why my favorite option would be to disable Guns for a few seconds if you ping a friendly.
No. Somebody needs to be taken out of the fight. If you're guns are just disabled for a few seconds, so what? You can still make the defender try to avoid you rather than going for a reversal because he doesn't know that you're weaponless.
All things considered, KS as implemented is the best option I think.
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I like those ideas about either a couple pings could go by ok but a sustained burst would affect the shooter, or just turn off the guns much like the stick stir control freeze does.
Dred Im all set on the SA advice thanks. You think I just fell off the turnip truck?...I used to drive that f*&kin thing! :P
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Originally posted by FiLtH
Dred Im all set on the SA advice thanks. You think I just fell off the turnip truck?...I used to drive that f*&kin thing! :P
Turnip truck?
No.
Dump truck maybe
but cetainly not turnips:)
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Originally posted by rabbidrabbit
I thought the idea of instead of taking damage you lose all your ammo to be a great one.
I've said this from the start. It would penalize you by making you reload/land but would not give you a death (esp. if some noob flew up into your stream from 200-250).
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Killshooter dows EXACTLY what its designed to do....with amazing effectiveness. There will always be the occasional issue with killing yourself when a friendly jumps in front unexpectedly...but in all my years here, its 95% of the time in a vulch anyway...when everyone is fighting to get the vulch 1st.
The only problem with KS, is there are occasionally some bozo who parks their m3 or whatever inside a target (be it FH or town) and gets friendlies killed who try and get the base down for capture.
Those issues are few and far between and a little friendly coaching helps avoid these issues.
What KS does do and it is intended to do is keep you from being able to spray with impunity near friendlies so that:
You cant steal kills from behind someone (especially buffs where they are like a shield for you)
You cant add extra damage to a fleeing enemy in one big conga line.
You LEARN to play the game correctly:D
Ahh killshooter....she is a harsh mistress
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Originally posted by FiLtH
I like those ideas about either a couple pings could go by ok but a sustained burst would affect the shooter, or just turn off the guns much like the stick stir control freeze does.
Dred Im all set on the SA advice thanks. You think I just fell off the turnip truck?...I used to drive that f*&kin thing! :P
This is not directed at Drediok, or anyone else in particular.
Just a little FYI. FiLtH has been in flight sims for about 7 or 8 YEARS that I know of. He ain't no Johnny come lately, and he ain't no spray and pray noob either. He's a pretty damned good stick.
Kind of gets on my nerves to hear people who disagree with certain things here talked to in a somewhat condescending manner and assumed to be fools or noobs. Maybe people should think and ask a little more and ASSume a little less.
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Killshooter is probably the single worst feature of this game. I have been killed too many times by dweebs cutting in on me. Like many other things in this game it is great - in theory - but sucks in reality.
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Originally posted by SlapShot
I am D200 off someone's 6 and just about to get a guns solution when you decide to start shooting over my shoulder. While you are shooting over my shoulder, you hit me ... I should be damaged because your a fool ... I don't think so !!!
Yeah, and what about me being D200 to D400 of a con I've been working for 2-3 minutes and now have a firing solution on, and as I pull the trigger, some putz drops in front of me and I die? THIS is how I die from killshooter, I do not shoot over peoples shoulders. And explain to me how fair this is. Oh, by the way, I'm not a noob by any stretch. But I am partially DEAF, so it is often hard to hear the engine or guns of another plane.
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Originally posted by Captain Virgil Hilts Yeah, and what about me being D200 to D400 of a con I've been working for 2-3 minutes and now have a firing solution on, and as I pull the trigger, some putz drops in front of me and I die? THIS is how I die from killshooter, I do not shoot over peoples shoulders
If you continue to die in this manner to killshooter, then it suggests a systematic problem at your end. First, you're firing from too far away if people can "drop" in front of you. Second, you appear to lack awareness of the position of friendlies around you. Killshooter effectively rewards those who kill in close and who demonstrate total situational awareness; it penalizes those who do not.
So it's not just a matter of whether you shoot over shoulders or have people "drop" in on you, since these both indicate tactical failures rather than gameplay errors.
-- Todd/Leviathn
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Ill Second that Filth is far from a Noob. He has opinions about KS and is voicing them. ::Shrug::
Personaly if I get caught by KS its when Im trying to clear an enemy off a friendly bomber. Ill try to hit him and cause him to break or just out right kill and a I miss and hit the bomber.
Its been a long time since I was KillShootered.
Better yet was the day that Father Oddball was flying with a returning Vet from the squad. He kept explaining to him that Kill shooter was turned off and you could actualy frag a friendly. Well, he finally convinced his quarry and suckered him into to Testing Kill Shooter. He was laughing his butt off when our squadie kill shootered himself.
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The only time I've ever died to killshooter is when I'm running someone down,and someone else blows directly through me with a ton of smash right as I open fire.In three years this has been a total of maybe 4-5 times.
After seeing what happened when there was no killshooter in AW(pre AW3),I'd rather see it stay.
A warning;if I'm shooting at someone and you're shooting over my shoulder,I WILL jink into your tracers. :)
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Originally posted by Dead Man Flying
If you continue to die in this manner to killshooter, then it suggests a systematic problem at your end. First, you're firing from too far away if people can "drop" in front of you. Second, you appear to lack awareness of the position of friendlies around you. Killshooter effectively rewards those who kill in close and who demonstrate total situational awareness; it penalizes those who do not.
So it's not just a matter of whether you shoot over shoulders or have people "drop" in on you, since these both indicate tactical failures rather than gameplay errors.
-- Todd/Leviathn
Big surprise here.:rolleyes:
It's all my fault.:rolleyes:
Thanks.:rolleyes:
Killshooter also effectively rewards the loser who steals kills by cutting in after someone else has worked to gain advantage and a firing solution, and it penalizes the guy who did all the work. But you can deny that all you want.:rolleyes:
Have a nice day.:aok
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Originally posted by Captain Virgil Hilts
It's all my fault.:rolleyes:
[/B]
Yes, it is. Blame the other guy for stealing your kill but accept the fact that you screwed up by killshootering yourself on him. Whether he planned it or not, you should demonstrate the awareness to keep it from happening.
Ask yourself why it is that some people killshooter themselves frequently while others do not. Does this indicate a problem with killshooter or with something that the frequent killshooters do incorrectly? It's obvious that you can "learn" to avoid killshooting yourself.
Killshooter also effectively rewards the loser who steals kills by cutting in after someone else has worked to gain advantage and a firing solution, and it penalizes the guy who did all the work. But you can deny that all you want.:rolleyes:
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Did you miss what I wrote? Get in closer so people can't cut in front of you. Otherwise accept that it can happen and chalk it up to players being kill-hungry kill stealers perhaps. Blaming killshooter for your dying to such behavior, however, is just silly. You are in complete control of killshooter whether you admit it or not.
-- Todd/Leviathn
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Originally posted by Captain Virgil Hilts
Yeah, and what about me being D200 to D400 of a con I've been working for 2-3 minutes and now have a firing solution on, and as I pull the trigger, some putz drops in front of me and I die? THIS is how I die from killshooter, I do not shoot over peoples shoulders. And explain to me how fair this is. Oh, by the way, I'm not a noob by any stretch. But I am partially DEAF, so it is often hard to hear the engine or guns of another plane.
The occurences of the "drop-in", especially at D200, is far less than the occcurences of those "over-the-shoulder" shooters.
I could bet the ranch on the fact that if killshooter was shut off, I would sustain more deaths/damage to "over-the-shoulder" shooters vs those that "drop-in".
I do get the "drop-in" doodz occasionally, but I have conditioned myself to hold off/stop shooting when another plane enters my field of view. This doesn't work 100% of the time, but I can live with 99.9%.
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I don't think we're in complete control. How about this example:
I spend the time to climb to a reasonable alt in lancs with the intent to help take down most of a town in 2 passes. I drop from 12k AGL and a friendly zooms in on the town on the deck and my bombs hit his aircraft. I'm dead instantly (with all 3 planes in formation).
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Filth,
I'd add 100-150 kills a tour if this were off. I'm personally tired of people swooping down to 100 in front of me, when I am 200 away (not playing with my food) and ready to pull the trigger. You really want it to stay the same.
Karaya
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Originally posted by Rolex
I don't think we're in complete control. How about this example:
That's an extreme example, but you are correct. However, a scenario like this does not exist in the air to air combat scenarios described above.
-- Todd/Leviathn
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hmmm filth you play ww2ol??
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tunr killshooter off??
and have my fighter stats, and/or 5 kills from a good sortie destroyed by any newb who wants to test his guns on me?
NO THANKS.
now, friendly collisions, employed 1 minute after take off would be fun. although equally anoying with newbs around.
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Originally posted by Captain Virgil Hilts
Killshooter also effectively rewards the loser who steals kills by cutting in after someone else has worked to gain advantage and a firing solution
That is not stealing kills. Stealing kills is when someone shoots a falling carcass. It is silly to think that it is your "right" to get a kill when you "did all the work". First of all, the presence of the other plane adversely affects the target's response, so you cannot claim that you alone killed him. But more importantly, this is the MA, not the DA. Multiple planes are part of the game. If you get frustrated that others are getting "your" kills, then learn to kill more quickly.
Originally posted by Captain Virgil Hilts
and it penalizes the guy who did all the work.
No it doesn't. It penalizes the guy who stays on the trigger despite seeing a plane in front if him. _Occasionally_ it will happen by accident, but if it is happening to you a lot then I suggest that you are staying on the trigger because of your frustration that someone is taking "your" kill, despite clearly seeing a friendly in front of you.
I admit that this is less of a problem for me, becuase I generally close to d150 before taking a shot. But sometimes I do take long shots with MGs. If I see a friendly in front of me, I stop shooting. It's pretty simple.
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So the next time you are saddled up on an opponent at D200 or so and firing, it's perfectly okay to slide right on in front of you and shoot him down? And cause you to die by the killshooter if you don't get off the trigger fast enough? Cool.
I suggest that you know so little about me that you make completely false assumptions with little or no relevance to the arguement at hand.
I have no use nor patience for the loser that slips between a friendly and an enemy with D200 seperation right into the tracer stream of the already firing friendly. Shows a lack of class, sportsmanship, and intelligence.
If you think the above situation is perfectly acceptable, so be it.
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Originally posted by Captain Virgil Hilts
So the next time you are saddled up on an opponent at D200 or so and firing, it's perfectly okay to slide right on in front of you and shoot him down?
If that's what you want to do, then go for it.
Originally posted by Captain Virgil Hilts
And cause you to die by the killshooter if you don't get off the trigger fast enough?
Nope, because when I see you come in front of me, I have already let go. This type of thing happens to me too, but I don't killshooter myself from it.
Originally posted by Captain Virgil Hilts
I suggest that you know so little about me that you make completely false assumptions with little or no relevance to the arguement at hand.
It is quite relevant, and based on your statements and attitude in this thread.
Originally posted by Captain Virgil Hilts
I have no use nor patience for the loser that slips between a friendly and an enemy with D200 seperation right into the tracer stream of the already firing friendly. Shows a lack of class, sportsmanship, and intelligence.
There is no need of "use" or "patience". Just let go of the trigger. Let his lack of class reflect on him, not yourself.
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In all the furballs Ive been in and bomb runs Ive found the best way to avoid killshooter is this.
1 Know whats around you.Whos where and there energy states..
2 If your dropping eggs state so on the local vox.I ALWAYS say "dropping eggs on VH stay clear.
The indisputable results?
I FF incident with a squadmate flyin 262's one night and NEVER egged a friendly.
Pay attention.It works.Anything else is just your own fault.
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I think if its off then like some n00b or someone that h8s you will shoot you down and EVEN vulch you ........................ yep
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So far as I know, I have never once been injured by Killshooter while online.
However, I have experienced attacks from "friendly" aircraft on 2 occasions. Thanks to Killshooter, they paid the price, not me.