Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: GtoRA2 on September 01, 2004, 12:15:02 PM
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Could Genocide happen again in the modern western/Eastern world?
Nazi Germany was 60 plus years ago, but are we so removed from that time that what they did could never be repeated?
The German people were not uncivilized, not barbaric, they were probably average people. Not all that different from the people of the UK or the US. But those same people allowed the elimination of over 6 million jews for no other reason then they were jews. The people of Germany allowed the SS to round these people up and kill them. Or use them as slave labor.
Now I do not want to debate why the Germans let this happen. The fact is it did, and we are not in my opioned all that much different now from the men and women of 40 years ago.
I think humans, are capable of amazing levels of cruelty.
Now we have cases of this happening in places like Africa right now, but lets leave those out because they do not have the governmental structure that most of the Big western and Eastern Nations.
Now the main question. Could the population of the USA, UK, France, Germany, India, China Russia Austria Austrelia ETC be pushed so far they would look the other way while there government committed Genocide on a race or religion?
An example. Say Islamic extremist terrorsts set off Nukes in all the above countries in one day. (far fetched yes but the idea of Genocide is as well at this point) Killing millions of people, would the anger the people fo these nations felt result in genocide committed agaist people of islam? Would anger overcome reason, and then lead down the path of killing inocent and gilty muslim alike? Could the rest of humanity be pushed so far with anger an hatred over an attack that they would do what the germans did to the jews?
If you guys think no, how are we different now then people of the 40s who did this?
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I believe that it has.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slobodan_Milosevic
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Look at how many people blindly support their party's nominee... There is your answer, yes - it could EASILY happen again.
-SW
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:rolleyes:
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Could Genocide happen again in the modern western/Eastern world?
Saddam.
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DRC, Yugoslavia, Ruanda (Outous Vs toutsies) just to name a few of the population cleansing of this last decade.
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(http://image.guardian.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2004/09/01/omarskabig.jpg)
Serbian concentration camp, 12 years ago. Not much different to the photos I've seen from 60 years ago.
As for the UK, I'd like to think there are enough people who can distinguish between Islamic fundamentalists doing what you describe in your nuke example, and 99% of the Muslims who live here.
If it did happen, I'm sure they'd get a lot of grief but nothing state sponsored.
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It could even happen here in the US. It's not like there's an announcement in the paper 'GENOCIDE PLANNED FOR TOMORROW'.
It starts out small, public opinion is shaped gradually, and eventually people start dying and everyone is involved and nobody can stop it and so they have to finish it. Remember that movie 'Very Bad Things'? Imagine that situation, but instead of a hotel room in Vegas, it's all of society.
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Good points, but Iraq does not count cause Sadam was a dictator, the African stuff I do not kno wuch about but the governments do not seem like very good ones to me.
Serbia is a close example, but I do not know enough about it to talk about.
I would like to think it couldn't happen in most of the big western nations, but I can not rule it out.
If millions in the US died, I could see people not being real picky about what wether the people were run of the mill Muslim just trying to make a life and a terrorist nutjob.
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Originally posted by GtoRA2
Good points, but Iraq does not count cause Sadam was a dictator, .
Hitler.
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You have mixed up different things. Killing civilians was always inherent part of any weaponed conflict. And sometimes very difficult to put an edge between military necessity and war crime. War is ugly thing, and intimidation actions are parts of any war, you know. Dresden, Hiroshima and Nagasaki are well known examples.
The Holocaust is another story. There was no war between Germany and Jews, and Jews actually did nothing wrong. Jews were killed "just in case", without any military, economical or any other reasons. Only because they were Jews.
Regarding your example. To answer your question first of all we have to decide: Are we in state of war with terrorism? Is the terrorism inherent part of modern Islam? And, if answer 'yes', is the threat of terrorism big enough now to use intimidations?
I don't think that terrorism is essential part of Islam, so on your example I would answer "No, I don't expect massacre of Muslims". But when/if the link between Islam and terrorism will be proven or majority of population will be convinced that such a link exists I think we will witness new genocide. It will be called "military necessity". And next generation will judge us. Again. Or Muslims will judge us for war crimes if we will lose the war.
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Could happen.....would only take a few literate vociferous idiots to spew enough garbage long enough that many of the lesser intelligent would assume their garbage to be true.
Now you have a mob of idiots that can't be reasoned with. They have a few guns....some explosives and now we have a Mob of dangerous idiots.
Sound like this has happened before?
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Originally posted by Hajo
Now you have a mob of idiots that can't be reasoned with. They have a few guns....some explosives and now we have a Mob of dangerous idiots.
Sound like this has happened before?
Al Qaeda.
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Originally posted by Chairboy
It could even happen here in the US.
Impossible according to lazs.
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We have guns... lots of itty bitty guns. ;)
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Could never happend. It's illegal, just ask the europeans... :D
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Originally posted by Sandman
We have guns... lots of itty bitty guns. ;)
A bunch of half starved to death jews and other polish people sure made a lot of trouble for the massive german war machine when they got their hands on just a few "itty bitty guns."
Or, perhaps an example more appropriate for you left wing Micheal Moore worship guys, look at all the trouble and casualties caused by those glorious iraqi freedome fighters armed with just a few guns aginst the evil us imperialist zionist war machine!!!!
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Originally posted by OneWordAnswer
Al Qaeda.
BEEP BEEP ERROR : 2 words !
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And when comparing those half starved jews and poles with itty bitty guns to the Might french army at the start of Ww2...
I think you know the rest of this sentance.
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How many abortions are there per day in the "civilized" world?
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Is Sudan "civililzed"?
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Originally posted by Toad
Is Sudan "civililzed"?
Very much so, the current crisis will soon end when the warring factions sign their glorious 10 years in the making peace accords! Coffe "house" Annan will be so proud!
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I found your wide eyed adoration for that piece of paper quite humorous, err i mean REKIDELOUZ!
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yes quite easily. you have whacko's that can hide it during the campaign then suddenly explode once in office.
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Originally posted by GScholz
Hi Blitz, long time.
How have yiou been? Havent seen you at the anti-usa protests. I'm hoping that you are OK and that Boosh hasnt got to you. East germany was great!
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Yes. Humans have not evolved that far yet. And may never. Human nature is VERY little different than it was 60 years ago. Some things change very slowly, if they ever change at all.
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Originally posted by GScholz
Thanks I'm ok, the evil Boosh hasn't gotten to me yet. I'm glad you liked East Germany, I just love bright red tapestry don't you?
This castle has many tapestries...
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Originally posted by straffo
BEEP BEEP ERROR : 2 words !
Eh eh, you beat me on this. :)
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Originally posted by Vad
You have mixed up different things. Killing civilians was always inherent part of any weaponed conflict. And sometimes very difficult to put an edge between military necessity and war crime. War is ugly thing, and intimidation actions are parts of any war, you know. Dresden, Hiroshima and Nagasaki are well known examples.
Well, according to the trend of the last century, this is not completely true.
During the first WW, the civilian losses rate was in the 20-30% range or lower (dont have exact numbers), raised to 40-50% in WW2.
In modern wars, the rate is reverted, going near the 60-70% range.
This "killing civilians" stuff seems a new trend, if you dont consider the wars before and during the middle age.
Of course, theese numbers are considered for the populations living where the war is fought, or (modern) in bombers range.
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Originally posted by Hajo
Could happen.....would only take a few literate vociferous idiots to spew enough garbage long enough that many of the lesser intelligent would assume their garbage to be true.
Now you have a mob of idiots that can't be reasoned with. They have a few guns....some explosives and now we have a Mob of dangerous idiots.
Exactly.
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
A bunch of half starved to death jews and other polish people sure made a lot of trouble for the massive german war machine when they got their hands on just a few "itty bitty guns."
Correct, but they certainly were unable to stop a genocide.
But, it would be different in the US...because...um...because.
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Maybe against foreign work power.
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Course it can, anyone who thinks humanity is any better today then it was 60 years ago is kidding themselves. Especially when religion comes into it.
...-Gixer
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Originally posted by Gixer
Course it can, anyone who thinks humanity is any better today then it was 60 years ago is kidding themselves. Especially when religion comes into it.
...-Gixer
at least people have been getting over the religious fanatism in the last couple hundred years.
btw. seems to me like southern states in US messes religion more in the politics than most of the europe.
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Originally posted by Curval
Correct, but they certainly were unable to stop a genocide.
But, it would be different in the US...because...um...because.
The vast majority of people killed in holocaust did not put up a fight, not one bit. They just let the nazis take them, MG them to death or gas therm to death. Like sheep, they had no weapons and they had no choice. Made it very easy and smooth for the nazis to kill 10 million people.
Imagine if they did putt up a fight every time the nazis came and collected people for the trains
Or lets the extend the Jewish example to post WW2.
A few lightly armed Jews were able to stop all the arab armies from driving them into the sea. Sure the arabs werent the nazi army but imagine the outcomne if those Jews didnt have a few itty bitty guns.
Or how about Bosnia, we know what happend there if the villagers had no guns and were left to the mercy of the Serbian army..
Finally lets extend it to just you and your family, your wife, yiur children. Lets say they came for you one day, and you knew what was going to happend. Would you rather have the chance to shoot the sons of *****es, regardless of what the outcome is, or would you prefer to be unarmed that moment and happily lead your family like sheep to the slaughter? How would you confront them at the door of your home, with somber dignity resigned to your fate or with a loaded gun determined to do the right thing, to stand up for human decency to the last..
Think about that..
Is any one man going to stop an army? Probably not. But does any one man have the power to stop a one sided slaughther of sheep when they come for him or his family, maybe, even if they just go out of this world on their feet and not their knees..
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Grun,
Who are "they"? Enraged tourists upset that their pina coladas are watery?
Besides...I'm on your side in this thread. It could not happen in the US. All that big game hunting and trash shooting scares the heck out of the government....sorry.."them".
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Originally posted by Curval
Grun,
Who are "they"? Enraged tourists upset that their pina coladas are watery?
Besides...I'm on your side in this thread. It could not happen in the US. All that big game hunting and trash shooting scares the heck out of the government....sorry.."them".
I thought the context of the thread makes "they" perfectly obvious...
Does one really need to be graphic in describing who "they" are in the context of this thread and what "they" would do after "they" took you and your family from your home?
And I wasnt arguing whether this could or couldnt hapopend in the USA, though coming from the former yugoslavia, a fairly westernised state, I think it could possibly happend even here in the USA.
My argument was about that choice you make when they come to your door, or more to the point whether you really even have the opportunity to make that choice.
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Sorry, but the original post is extremely vague with respect to who "they" are in the context of showing up at my door.
"Now the main question. Could the population of the USA, UK, France, Germany, India, China Russia Austria Austrelia ETC be pushed so far they would look the other way while there government committed Genocide on a race or religion? "
Just don't see why anyone would want to committ genocide against a white anglo-saxon protestant living on a small island in the middle of the Atlantic ocean.
Islamic militants maybe? But then that wouldn't be genocide would it? That would be terrorism being as there are only a very small population of musilms here.
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For our purposes It's not relevant to discuss whether a genocide could actually happend in your community. The scenario I proposed implied that a genocide was taking place and that you were the target. It seems that wasnt clearly communicated.
So for the sake of the argument, lets assume a genocide is allready starting to take place.
And one morning thgis is your situation:
The killers come to your home and demand that you and your family come out. The idea being that they intend to kill you.
Would you rather have a gun at this point or not? Rather fight back or simply let them take your family to the killing fields without offering deadly resistance like the vast majority of hollocaust victims who were unarmed.
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Grun, this isn't a gun thread...it is a genocide thread.
Someone said that such an event could happen in the US. Based on comments from lazs, and others, I said this was impossible.
I am in no danger from a genocide where I live so your question is mute.
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Hmm I can see where this is headed and just have one thing I'd like to say
I'M IN!
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Originally posted by Curval
I am in no danger from a genocide where I live so your question is mute.
But the question was hypothetical...
"For our purposes It's not relevant to discuss whether a genocide could actually happend in your community. The scenario I proposed implied that a genocide was taking place and that you were the target. It seems that wasnt clearly communicated.
So for the sake of the argument, lets assume a genocide is allready starting to take place."
I would hope those words made it clear that the situation was hypothetical. If not I'd be glad to hear your suggestions about how to communicate that point more effectively.
I was interested in what your respobnse vwould be if you were placed in that hypothetical situation.
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Well, okay.
If "they" came for me and my family I would fight them as best I could. Such a fight would last only slightly less time than if "they" came for you...or lazs.
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I dont own a gun right now, but I like thae fcat that I have the right to (still). :)
Anyway my overall point is that i think the holocaust, and other genocides, would be a lot lees neat and clean for the excecutioners if their victims fought back at every step instead of being hearded into death trains or busses without resistance.
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Well Grun, you better go get yourself one soon. If a genocide was indeed taking place I doubt you could "nip 'round" to the local gun shop and pick up some protection at the last minute.
You need to follow lazs' example. Arm yourself to the teeth...just in case!
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Hmm.. Intersting perspective.. :)
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well... curval now that you have mentioned "guns" and "lazs" five times I suppose I should respond.
I doubt that it could happen here. I believe an armed citizenry is part of that and... A tradition of freedom and fair play.
I believe that if genocide were the goal of our government that they would not only get resistance from an armed populace but from half or more of the armed forces and police forces.
I belive that an armed citizenry makes it much less likely that a government would even attempt a genocidal rule.
As for sandies and curvals comments about itty bitty guns... a lot of us have fairly modern weaponry despite the lefts attempts to disarm us but... any gun will do. Give me any gun and I will get any other gun. while you are whining and hiding under the bed clutching a 9 iron.
lazs
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That was sandman's comment about itty bitty guns.
My comment was that it was impossible for a genocide to take place in the US.
I still say that in Grun's hypothetical scenario you would last only slightly longer than I would, though.
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Originally posted by Curval
That was sandman's comment about itty bitty guns.
My comment was that it was impossible for a genocide to take place in the US.
I still say that in Grun's hypothetical scenario you would last only slightly longer than I would, though.
But an armed Lazs would get a lot more of them than you would. And yes thats very very important.
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How so? In a scenario like grun laid out I would merely have to survive until the government collapsed. With such an unpopular government and half it's militaryu and police on my side... I would be 100 times better off than you. I know the terrain and no preconcieved notions about survival.
If you and I were to be part of a very small group of criminals that were being hunted by a popular government... I would probly still last a whole lot longer than you unless you have more experiance with criminals than I would guess.
The firearms would be handy for more than just fending off the government. If you were part of a criminal revolutionary or terrorist element that was slated for death... you would need to be armed to simply take a place of power with those you would be dealing with. You wouldn't last 10 seconds in your pink shorts clutching a nine iron. It is my experiance that even drug dealers and other criminal types are much more polite when I was well armed. Even tho that was decades ago.... I don't think people are much different.
lazs
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lol...
You would also survive much longer than I would if the world suddenly turned into zombies.
WTG!
:lol
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count on it curval... I look forward to a good weekends zombie shoot.
I will have filled out my limit while you are still clutching your nine iron and screaming "help me lazs, the zombies are chewing on me..." "but, (i will say) I thought I was a crazy gun person.... and now its.... Help me lazs?" I might let em chew off what the pit bulls you couldn't defend against either started before I rescue your butt!
lazs
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IMHO.....
Survival in such a situation is highly dependant on your mindset/atitude. Next would come your skills.
IMO YES it could happen here in the U.S., or in any country. As has been stated it's a gradual thing. Starts out mild but keeps escalating. Many in Germany either were truly unaware or prefered to ignore it. Was little or even nothing they could do. They just didn't have the means. They feared they would be included IMHO, and had no means of defence or attack. A part of "Schindlers List" ( ya ya speeling :) ) that was not in the film but was reported by his widow was he also armed those people. He armed them and the Nazi's came for them right at the last. Those people were ready and defended themselves, and the Nazi's also under attack by the allies went elsewhere. How it would actually turn out is another thing.
Just watching the activivties of the protestors at the RNC in N.Y. gives me a chill. Some of the protestors have already made violent attacks on people and police officers. Keep finding myself waiting for the other shoe to drop so to speak.
"Beware of stupid people in large numbers"
Yep and at different times in all our lives we can probably be consider as numbered among those people.
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"and then they came for my nine iron but there was no one left to help me"
lazs
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lol lazs. First you argue that you are safer because of your guns because the government fears an armed citizenry. Now you are arguing that "if" a genocide happens you will be prepared and better able to survive because half your military and police would be on your side. Mighty presumptious of you to assume that.
Regardless, I'm really glad I am not living in the paranoid delusional state you must be in.
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I would say that you are right up there in the delusional dept if you feel that the only people that should be armed is the government and that you don't need any more protection from the bad guys than they can give you.
Now... let us decide what we are talking about here... I thought we were talking about genocide? I can't imagine that even half the military would be behind a governent that practiced genocide. I would be with the majority and if we were armed we would be impossible to overcome. get it now?
I believe my government is polite because we are armed. Heck.. they might even be polite if we weren't (at least for a while) but...
I like the way the check and balance of the thing (constitution) has been working on that score so see no reason to change things.
If you don't like guns then don't own em... oh wait... you don't really have the choice.... but... don't come whining to me when the zombies are chasing you around or when 3 meanies shove that 9 iron up your butt.
lazs
lazs
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Originally posted by lazs2
Now... let us decide what we are talking about here... I thought we were talking about genocide? I can't imagine that even half the military would be behind a governent that practiced genocide. I would be with the majority and if we were armed we would be impossible to overcome. get it now?
No, I don't get it at all.
If there was a genocide going on the government in conjuction WITH the military would be the guys knocking on your door. At least that is the hypothetical situation Grun was talking about.
Now you have morphed that into something else. Not sure what exactly, but you seem very sure about it.
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Are you saying that even half of the U.S military and police would back a government that practiced genocide? That the people would be against it but the military for it? We are so far away from that, that it is impossible any time soon.
but oh... ok...
if the U.S. was populated by nothing but people who believed in genocide.... I couldn't change very many of their minds with a firearm before they got me. Hows that?
lazs
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Right...now we are on the same page.
It was a hypothetical example that Grun was using to get me to say pretty much the same thing. I mean, a genocide here on this island...it is just silly.
He was trying to make a point about guns but then even admitted he didn't own one. I suggested he go get one now in case.
You did read the rest of the thread right?
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The Only way I could see genocide in the US, would be if people from the middle east set off nukes, here, maybe then maybe the US government would round up all people from the middle east and put them in camps type of thing like we did with the was coast japanese. Then going overboard and killing them.
If enough americans were killed in said attacks, would people try and stop the round up?
The whole ideal seems far fetched to me, but I just do not see that humans have evolved past it either, so I can not rule it out.
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Here's a scenario for discussion:
1. Public opinion begins to shift towards complete lock-down as a means of ensuring safety.
2. People who protest this are increasingly painted as supporters of terrorism.
3. Self appointed 'Patriots' begin to organize as an effort to silence the dissent.
4. A prominent protester is involved in a high profile event that sparks outrage, OR a high profile murderer is identified as being part of the protest movement.
5. Almost spontaneously, the bands of 'Patriots' begin physically attacking the protesters who they identify as being one and the same with the person in item #4.
6. With public support backing them, the government begins observing or arresting anyone associated with the movement "for their own protection".
7. The arrests actualy inflame even more emotion because it is seen as a legitimazation of the anti-protest movement.
8. A nationwide crisis develops as this escalates further. Even with the best intentions, the government's special treatment of the protesters serves only to excacerbate the problems until people start to die.
It might not be genocide, but the powerful thing about mob mentality is that it makes smart individuals into dumb and stupid brutes. If this can happen, it's just a step away from something much darker.
Read 'It Can't Happen Here' by Sinclair Lewis (about a theoretical spread of nazism in the US, written in the early 30's) or watch the miniseries 'V'. The scenario I outlined was an accidental one, these two works show what happens when it's on purpose.