Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Lance on February 01, 2000, 08:34:00 PM
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I am starting to become a convert to the idea of only going with two countries in the arena if HTC would consider it. Here is why:
Right now, the arena inevitably winds up in a 2 vs. 1 situation countrywise. That means that at all times at least one country is getting their clock cleaned. It seems to be pretty evenly distributed. One day its the Bishops, the next its the Rooks, the day after it is Knights. But whenever it is your day to get ganged up on, things can get frustrating for some people.
Take the past couple of days for example. It has been the Bishops turn for getting throttled in the U.S. afternoon/evenings. We've been operating with about 4 bases and no dar. You Crooks and Knitwits would love to have heard some of the conversation on the Bishop channel. There was a lot of frustration voiced by some people, generally in the form of squeaking or finger pointing.
What I am worried of is that when we get the free 4-8 person arenas, people will simply leave the main arena in frustration for these fair, controlled fights when its their countries turn to get spanked. Their countrymen that choose to stay would then be even more outnumbered.
Right now, I have fun regardless of whether my country is a screwer or the screwee, but if people begin fleeing the arena when the odds start turning against them, then my fun will be diminished. I enjoy the high numbers and the big furballs. I don't like 20 vs 1, irregardless of which side I am on.
I realize that some of this is speculative, but given the frustration level I've seen in the past few days, I don't think its an unrealistic possibility. I never played WB or AW prior to this, so I don't know if they have free arenas or just free head to head play. If they do, were there any problems similar to the one I outlined above?
Gordo
[This message has been edited by Lance (edited 02-01-2000).]
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It's time. Let's do it. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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I cant think of the advantage of 3 over 2? I would like to try 2
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Pongo
Musketeer Escadrille
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Myself and others have mentioned that a 2 country arena is ideal.
- more realistic
- allows for easy transition to a HA arena (axis vs allies)
- provides "patriotic" loyalty to a side, you always know who your enemy is .. not this confusing knight, now rook, sigh knight again
- would make for some REAL COOL battles 40v40
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I believe Dawn of Aces punted on the three country idea, and now Purple is inactive, folks are Red or Gold. This may be due to limited numbers, but IMHO I agree that two countries are better than three.
But, that's one of the reasons I'm wishing for "historical" events and then an HA.
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I would be happier with 2 countrys. Just a word on 4 though. It would solve most of the objections pyro threw out the last time this came up. Ad make most of the players happier also. FWIW back in my ACA days. You could choose. The red/green war was a big furball. And the gold/purp war tended to be more spread out, and smaller furballs. so you could have what ever you were in the mood for. I think this would repeat itself in AH. Given time.
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Dont agree with the 2 country setup. Allthough its perfect for an HA arena,ultimately a 4 country setup would be much prefered.
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Why; Wardog??
Just curious.. seen the 4 country stuff in WB's fer years... *yawn*
Hang
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Hummm, Mind if I drop my stone in the pond ?
I thought about this yesterday evening, after spending 2 hours without dar as a bish (I tend to stick with the country I chose...)
In a 2 country situation, i would be affraid that it would end up strong Vs weaks, meaning how could a balance of forces be assured ?
I don't have any experience in WB or other sim "arena", so this is just a "blue" thought...
Maybe if the two countries would have different planes to choose from and/or make poeple stick to a side (ie: only the ability to switch sides once a week...)
Last night was fun with the knitwits though : one after the other were vulching the other's airbase (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)...but then, I'm digressing...
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Saint
DCO 186th Wardogs (Falcon4 Squad)
http://www.wardogs.org/ (http://www.wardogs.org/)
"Firepower Mate, that is what separates the men from the boys..."
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I would love a 2 country system, especially when this puppy goes pay and Im betting it will be slim pickins to find a fight.
Also I would hope to disallow switching countries for say.. maybe 24 hours..the way it is now..I get on..and if its slow and nothings goin on, I jump to the side thats gettin beat up on. Not hardly fair after spending 20 minutes flying for country a, and know where there hitting, and where everyone is.
Am I a spy or somesuch? Not at all..I fly to fight..period..and if i cant find one in country a, I go to country b.
A 2 country map would eliminate this altogether..always be enough players to find a fight..and no gang bangin 2 countrys on 1 crap that weve all become accustomed to in here.
Just my nickels worth...or should I say $29.95
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Are you guys playing the same game I am??? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/confused.gif)
I have been in the arena alot lately, and I almost never see a 2 v 1. I can only think of maybe two nights out of the last 10 or so I have been flying that it is like this.
In fact, lately the sides have been very balanced. And the community has finally figured out what a three way war means, and how to exploit it.
4 Sides don't work at all, Warbirds shows that. The two large teams, each pick a small team and ignore each other, so it ends up two seperate wars with very uneven numbers.
2 Sides rarely work either in a MA setting, because most people just gravitate to the bigger team, and things get outta hand quickly. IMO the only reason it works in DOA is that its a small dedicated community with mature pilots.
Its finally working out very well here, and I honestly don't see where the complaints are coming from.
Oh yeah, and of those 2 nights of 2 v 1. One of them was last night. It was Rooks against both the Knights and Bishops.
And the Rooks, had both of them down to 2 or 3 bases each (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure,
Dicta Verm: "Never give the suckers an even break!" or translated "Never engage without an advantage"
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WRT to DoA and the 3-side thingie:
I was there. We were experiencing exactly what is going on here, and it got to be very annoying to have the constant reset from behind on the weak team. The players complained (as we are) and it was switched. Very few people complained and it was considered an improvement.
Granger:
Switching to the weak side shows class as far as I'm concerned. There is no game if all the players are on one side. Of course I should say that I don't fly for anyone in particular myself (just can't buy into the imaginary country allegience thing). I too fly on the low side, though once I log in I stay put for the (K)night. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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I could care less if there are 3, 4 or 5 countries. When I log on I look at the roster numbers and I go to the side that's the underdog. It means more of a challange for me and yet places more targets on my plate should I be having a decent flying night.
But if there were 2 countries you'll soon find that Vermillion is right. Then again I DO wish HTC would try it out just so folks who want a two country arena can finally see it happen.
It can be fun if the numbers stay balanced. It can be a horrid bore too because they rarely ever are.
-Westy
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Check out my last post here. http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/Forum9/HTML/000230.html (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/Forum9/HTML/000230.html)
Tell me if you agree with that kind of two sides arena.
From my point of view, implementing the arena this way, makes very difficult to have a weak and a strong side.
Of course, this idea is there just to be improved.
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Ultimately, balance and fairness in force distribution is up to the players. This is true no matter how many "countries" there are on the map. The only thing the game designers can do is provide a format that promotes balance. (I think very few players want ENFORCED balance.)
I've seen 2, 3, and 4 country formats. My experience is that the 3 country format works best, for the reasons Verm stated above.
popeye
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Dolo: "Switching to the weak side shows class as far as I'm concerned."
Well, I fly for both Rooks and Knights, I have alot of friends from other squads (ok, just a handful of friends ;p)) that fly for Rook. When my squaddies are not flying, I usually will fly for Rooks. When squad is up, I fly Knights.
I *have* changed countries based on numerical superiority alone, going to the STRONG side.. One afternoon, Knights had 2 airfields, Rooks/Bish were vulching those 2 airfields, so rather than die everytime I tried to take off, I switched to rooks and starting attacking Bish. This, in turn, relieved the Knights from being vulched, since I was intercepting the Bish enroute to the vulch fest...I felt like a mercenary (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Oh yeah, and of those 2 nights of 2 v 1. One of them was last night. It was Rooks against both the Knights and Bishops.
And the Rooks, had both of them down to 2 or 3 bases each
Actually, Vermillion, the vast majority of bishops and knits were still battling it out over bishop f1 (which the Knights had captured) while the rooks went on a rampage over the rest of the map, alternately concentrating on knitland and then bishopland. Can't blame rooks for that, its our fault if we ignore their threat. There simply weren't enough planes to try to get f1 back from the knits -- thus protecting our radar -- and put a stop the rook advance.
As I said in my original post, I have a blast regardless. But there were many people on the Bishops that were frustrated and damn if it didn't hurt my ears. The point is, what will happen to those people when they have the alternative of the multi-player free arenas? Are they going to log out and wait for the map reset? No one can say for sure, but I would bet $100 that if they existed now that Bishop numbers would have fallen into the single digits at those times based on how frustrated people were on the country channel. Heck, they fell into the teens for both Knits and Bishops without the arenas being around.
Gordo
[This message has been edited by Lance (edited 02-02-2000).]
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Hang..
A 4 country setup will involve much more strat than a 2 or 3 country setup.
A 2 country setup is just gona be one big furball. This is great for a HA arena setup,but for a lot of players in a Main Arena setting more strat would be prefered.
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The Bishops have 5646 kills and have been killed 4395 times against the Knights.
The Knights have 3388 kills and have been killed 4156 times against the Rooks.
The Rooks have 8618 kills and have been killed 7764 times against the Bishops.
Conclusion: The Bish beat the hell out of the Knights.
The Rooks beat the hell out of the Bishops.
The Knights beat the hell out of no one, so I'd like to propose that more of you join up with the Knights (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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Brian "Ripsnort" Nelson
++JG2++ ~Richthofen~
(Formerly VF-101 Grim Reapers~Defected~)
"There is no reason anyone would
want a computer in their home."
Ken Olson, president, chairman and
founder of Digital Equipment Corp.,1977
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Ah, Rip....
All those numbers prove is that Knights will stubbornly defend fields to the bitter end. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Seriously, I don't believe you can really extrapolate anything useful from those numbers. I might quickly point out that for the bulk of the time those kills occurred, Knights were by far outnumbered and often facing a heinous alliance from the other two countries. Speaking as a pilot moving from one day of getting vultched to another, most of my deaths occurred right on the runway. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
'Course, I find that getting vultched while being a Rook or Bishop doesn't help my score either. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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Lance, on that night that the Bishes were fighting for 1, I got very frustrated the we were getting gang-banged, so I switched to rook and started beating the KnitWits down up north. Me, Pongo and Bull captured 17 in a beautiful mission then hit nit dar and city. We drew lots of attention at 17, and drew many knights there to capture it, and rooks there to defend it. While this was going on, the bishes were still hacking at 1, and eventually got it, probably because we had the Knitwits scrambling to save their main base and dar, leaving 1 more vunerable. I find that if I'm having trouble striking my enemy at my present location, it is alot more fun to switch to another side and nail them. It's a win-win situation. The rooks maintained a strong grip in KnitWit land, and Bishes got their main base back. It beat the hell out of getting gang banged with no dar all night.
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Mark VanZwoll
33rd Strike Group
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Exactly MarkVZ !!
And that is why a 3-front war works.
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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure,
Dicta Verm: "Never give the suckers an even break!" or translated "Never engage without an advantage"
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Hummm interesting,
Seems to me we already have a two sided arena. I rarely see a time when one of the countries is really a non player. For example 30 Bish, 37 Rook and 12 Knights. Now the non-player country does rotate some but is normally the Knights.
When I log on I usually switch to the weaker of the two largest countries and go look for a fight with the largest country. Logging on to the 3rd country is just suicidal, so I usually just ignore it.
If we go to a two country arena the only thing that would happen is that a few Knights would have to move to new digs (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Anyway why is it that Knights seem to be the least popular of the countries??
Sharky,
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You can run, but you just die tired.
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Right on Mark...I encourage those Bishops who feel they are getting beat down by inordinate numbers to switch to one of the other sides and hit the enemy. For example if you switch to Nit, fite the Riks. If you switch to Riks, fite the Nits. Guess the same thing can go for the Nits and riks.
Now Vila...I think this tactic is more atune to treating the symptoms of a disease rather than treating the cause itself. The problem is that countries dont fite each other evenly. It usually degrades down to a 2 v 1 situation with one country being gangbanged. I have to agree with the others in the belief that this problem would be solved if we went to a two country affair.
-Ding
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A 2 country system would minimize "country jumpers" as well. I mean really, what is the point of having 3 countries. Their is no patriotism.. everyone just flies, shoots, dies without really caring about their country.. oh rah.
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It seems like the primary concern with a 2 country arena is that some people will switch to the side with the most numbers, thus leaving one country at a bigger disadvantage than now in that the country with the highest numbers doesn't have to worry about the combined forces of two adversaries. The problem is that there is no guarantee that the two smaller foes will quit fighting each other and turn on the larger foe. Maybe four countries is a better way to do it than two, I haven't decided yet, but I don't think the 3 country arena is working well.
That someone feels they have to switch countries to the side with the most numbers to enjoy the arena play speaks volumes about the shortcomings of the present system to me. No matter what country they choose to attack after making that change. I haven't switched from the bishes since my second week here and I won't start now, unless it will be permanent. Thats not a knock on Mark or anyone elses moving around, just a personal prefence of mine.
Sorry, I think this is just a case where we will have to agree to disagree (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Gordo
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Makes sense...
If you are losing, change sides fight the same war, same players, same locations and win!
Mino