Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: demaw1 on September 05, 2004, 07:44:57 PM
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The lastest muslim to give documents to the enemy was a coverted American named Anderson from the 81st wash. nat.gar.
He gave troop strenths and movements to the enemy. Last week it was a navy muslim that gave ship positions and movements to the enemy.
The lower grade men/women are beginning to not want muslims in the field.
What should be done ?
SOURCES ARE AVIALIBLE.
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What are your figures for muslims serving honorably in the military? I know three converted muslims that serve quite honorably.
Keep in mind that the day we start to discriminate based on color or creed, is the day we stop being America.
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I remember it was the second or first night of the ar with Iraq II. When a muslim Army soldier threw a gernade or two into a officers tent killing a few. Dont mind Muslims in the military, but background checks should be done on ALL personel.
No.
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No.
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Undecided..............
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Bodhi..
Interesting thought, Why doesnt America have a right to defend our 18/20 year olds being shot in the back? Of course there are those that honorably serve, but at what cost. When would you ,Bodhi, decide enough have been killed or wounded before you would agree to hurt someones feelings?
I hadnt decided what side I was on until today.
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heck no. where are we going to get pretrained arabic speakers that can blend in as a natural from part of middle east? where are we going to get humint assets that can work in middle east? espionage risk is why background investigations and clearance exist. for every traitor you read about in the papers theres a hundred or more guys serving the people of the us with distinction. and the pa guys in middle east that are arabs and muslims work in very dangerous conditions.
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Silly, dangerous notion. You should be ashamed demaw.
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Stupidest Idea EVAR
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I agree with Raub, stupid idea.
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Should America deny military service to Muslims?
No.
Where were you with your "rounding up" questions when it was the white guys selling out secrets to the Soviets and Israelis? Using your logic, shouldn't we ban white people from serving in the military?
What's the next question, rounding up all Muslims to internment camps?
I'm with MT as well as others on this...dangerous idea.
Don't punish the whole for what a tiny minority fraction of a "group" does.
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Since everyone else has covered 'it is morally wrong', I'll focus on another aspect:
It would be an indefensible policy.
The first time we're engaged in hostilities with the EU, then you would either have to expel all people of european descent. If we fight against a country in Africa, you'd need to remove all blacks.
Q:'That's different, aren't you talking race and not religion?'
A: Legally, this country has defined both as equal under the law. All discrimination legislation covers both religion and race interchangably. 'But isn't religion is purely a matter of choice?' Sure, in theory, but what real choice do children raised in a religious household have? Statistically, the vast majority identify with the religion they are raised with, even if they choose not to actively worship as adults.
With this said, I suggest that most people have a strong pre-disposition to the religion of their family, to such an extent that discriminating on that basis is as flawed as discriminating on race.
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Of course the far right and the NeoCons would LOVE IT. Just 1 little thing standing in their way:
Bill of Rights
Amendment I
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.
All you guys thinking that ALL MUSLIMS are the problem are nuts. If you follow your theory, you should be out hunting down those cold blooded murdering CHRISTIANS. Guess everyone forgot CHRISTIAN terrorists blew up the Murrah Building in OKC. :rolleyes:
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I don't see how this is a conservative or liberal issue. In fact, I don't even see how this is much of an issue at all beyond what demaw tries to make of it.
-- Todd/Leviathn
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The point I was making was only the extreemists would go for it.
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Originally posted by rpm371
The point I was making was only the extreemists would go for it.
So left-wing Communists would go for it too?
-- Todd/Leviathn
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I think there's very little difference between extremist right-wingers and extremist left-wingers. Just language. Their actions are the same.
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Originally posted by Chairboy
I think there's very little difference between extremist right-wingers and extremist left-wingers. Just language. Their actions are the same.
We have a WINNAH!
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Originally posted by Chairboy
I think there's very little difference between extremist right-wingers and extremist left-wingers. Just language. Their actions are the same.
My point is that rpm specifically pointed to the far right and neo-conservatives as supporting such a policy. Besides the fact that I don't really think that's true, it also doesn't consider extremism in its entirety. Of course extremists would support extreme, unreasonable measures; that's what extremists do.
-- Todd/Leviathn
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In my time they would have been fragged if anyone was the least bit suspicious. Perhaps keeping them out of the service the same way we would a Communist is a good idea if only for their own protection.
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no,
stupid idea. if they want to serve let them. if they become a traitor, then discharge unhonourably, and put them on probation.
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Deny, no.
Did the US put soldiers of Japanese descent into the islands campaigns in the pacific against the Japanese?
If there were a few, they were few & far between.
Its my undersanding most of them ended up in Italy.
So let them serve, give them a chance to prove who they are loyal to. But let them do it in Germany, Korea, etc, not the middle east.
PS the penalty for being a traitor is and always should be death. As quick as and as cleanly as is possible.
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Ah the sadness of it all.
Anonymous....Sorry guy, but so far the muslims that have done this dont speak a word of the arab language. Is it not so that those translators of the arab language are put in harms way as little as possible and therefore would not be in a position to shoot our 18/20 year olds in the back.
Please read the thread carefully, dont read your bias into it as it is not a flame thread. In my day we simpley shot those we were suspect of...and in every war since time begun that has happened.
Ghosth....the japanese fought bravely,but they were not loyal to the japanese god the emperior. They were loyal to America. This is a religious war, 15 to 75 percent of muslims are loyal to the teachings of the radical mullas.
B 17 skull...stupid idea? FINE but what would you do with the 1, 10, 100 bodies of the boys and girls that were killed because of this traitor? GUESS YOU CANT PUT THEM ON PROBATION CAN YOU?
Dead man flying...what did I try to make of what, this will soon be a news story, please in your wisdom tell me what I said that was wrong. Tell you what, the guy who put the granade in the officers tent and killed him...the officer had a little girl,how would you like to meet her and tell her her daddy died because you didnt want to hurt someones feelings?
RPM...Wow you do know the first admendment, of course it doesnt apply to us christians , never mind America was founded on judeo/christian values. What name would you call Lincoln as he suspended habeas corpus during the civil war.
There are no chirstian terrorist anywhere in the world. Funny how the thousands of christian palistinians that live there have never once strapped on a bomb to one of their babys and set them to Israel.
Chairboy.....you of all people should know there is a difference between fighting a country and a religious war. I think your points were way off base, and I think most right minded europeans and blacks would think so to.
Saburos....where did I say punish the whole? Where did I ever say rounding up , please be a man ,as I was, and if I didnt say it, tell it. You see no difference between a spy doing what a spy does, and someone rolling a granade into a tent or shooting a g.i. in the back?
Midnight Target....What should I be ashamed of, Respectfully and without malice of wording posting a thread for serious thought. Maybe for using my freedom of speech or do I as a conservative christian not have that luxury any longer. Do you think I made this up ,or perhaps I have read about the worry in some letters from irag. Go ahead you choose the truth.
Saintall.... Racist, what is a racist ...what have you done for the genocide in the sudan, the arabs killing blacks because they are inferior race? I have done all I can, what have you done? You cheapen the word, using it as you have, you should be ashamed.
Last week rabbi menzer took his mother to lax to catch her flight to Israel, she is a old lady. She was singled out and had to strip and was embarrestingly searched . At the same time 3 arab men walked right on thru and boarded the plane. Even though our sworn enemy are arab males we best not profile.
With this policy we all know in our hearts what will soon happen , and when it does I hope to God it is yours on that plane and not mine.
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Originally posted by demaw1
Dead man flying...what did I try to make of what, this will soon be a news story, please in your wisdom tell me what I said that was wrong. Tell you what, the guy who put the granade in the officers tent and killed him...the officer had a little girl,how would you like to meet her and tell her her daddy died because you didnt want to hurt someones feelings?
I doubt this will soon be a major news story in anything reputable. The Bush administration wouldn't touch this issue with a 500 foot pole, and rightfully so.
And spare me the histrionics, please. It's not about hurting someone's feelings; it's about realizing why and for what our soldiers fight. You obviously don't get it.
-- Todd/Leviathn
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Originally posted by demaw1
Saburos....where did I say punish the whole? Where did I ever say rounding up , please be a man ,as I was, and if I didnt say it, tell it. You see no difference between a spy doing what a spy does, and someone rolling a granade into a tent or shooting a g.i. in the back?
Your statement in the title of this, your thread says it all:
Should America deny military service to Muslims?
I shouldn't have to explain it to you but I will.
Let's say you get your way and Congress passes laws to outlaw Muslims from our military. They wouldn't be "rounded up"? How would you propose our military get those innocent Muslim individuals that refuse to give up? They'd have to be hunted down and rounded up, no?
Now you introduce a grenade incident (which is wrong no matter how we cut it BTW). I agree with you there.
However if you look at your original statements:
The lastest muslim to give documents to the enemy was a coverted American named Anderson from the 81st wash. nat.gar.
He gave troop strenths and movements to the enemy. Last week it was a navy muslim that gave ship positions and movements to the enemy.
You talk about individuals giving up classified intel. I commented on why you seem to neglect non-Muslims that have done the same (you still haven't answered, btw). Shall we keep whole groups of people from serving our military for what a small fraction do?
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Originally posted by demaw1
RPM...Wow you do know the first admendment, of course it doesnt apply to us christians , never mind America was founded on judeo/christian values. What name would you call Lincoln as he suspended habeas corpus during the civil war.
There are no chirstian terrorist anywhere in the world. Funny how the thousands of christian palistinians that live there have never once strapped on a bomb to one of their babys and set them to Israel.
Demaw, because they are Christian, does not mean they are not terrorists. The IRA, KKK and Tim McVeigh are 3 prime examples of terrorists. None are muslim and there are many, many more.
You may not be aware, but when America was founded other religions existed. None were singled out to be excluded from the first amendment.
Israel is it's own can of worms. I think they create many of their own problems. Oh, and I would call Lincoln, Mr. President. You salute the office, not the man.
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whats next, marking muslims with a yellow halfmoon ? :rolleyes:
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Demaw. our intelliegnce for the military is pretty good. you can avoid hundreds of deaths by simple changing tactics or from locals. probation prision whatever. there is no reason to not let them in the military. We let the Japanese fight during WW2 in the ETO. they were one of the highest decorated units of the war. Should the same apply for the muslims in the army? Absolutely! Let them in, they would be on a mission to prove their worth.
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I think he answered your question demaw.
"It's not about hurting someone's feelings; it's about realizing why and for what our soldiers fight. "
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Originally posted by demaw1
Subaros....
The first thing I did was answer your question, please read it again slowly.
Now, I never said round up or the other, you may infer what you will, and if you will own up to the fact, I never said those words ,then I will explain the other way to interpet the thread.
I read just fine, thank you. How about you try your shot at reading again?
Actually you didn't answer my question. You just asked more questions and added comments out of context (grenade example and shooting in the back example).
I'll spell it out for you:
You asked this question in your title:
Should America deny military service to Muslims?
I answered with:
No.
Where were you with your "rounding up" questions when it was the white guys selling out secrets to the Soviets and Israelis? Using your logic, shouldn't we ban white people from serving in the military?
What's the next question, rounding up all Muslims to internment camps?
I'm with MT as well as others on this...dangerous idea.
Don't punish the whole for what a tiny minority fraction of a "group" does.
My question asking you if you were going to ask "What's the next question, rounding up all Muslims to internment camps?" was legit as this would be the next logical step using your train of thought.
I'll explain it further for you. If we go by your lead and way of thinking.
1st step: You eliminate all Muslims from the military as they are a threat to our military.
2nd step: We next have to round up all Muslims in other sectors of society as well as they are a threat.
Like it or not, that's how I see you going with this. that's why I asked you. Instead of saying: "Of coarse not!" We run around in a semantics battle and of who said what.
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Originally posted by demaw1
where did I use dramitics or emotional wording wrong?
[/B]
Here: "Tell you what, the guy who put the granade in the officers tent and killed him...the officer had a little girl,how would you like to meet her and tell her her daddy died because you didnt want to hurt someones feelings"
What kind of logic is this? Pure dramatics and nonsense. Nice job of using a dictionary though.
You did in no way answer the question. Why is it so hard. What you did was misdirect the answer, do you understand what I mean?
You keep saying this, and yet the answer is right there. I don't know how much clearer I could make it for you.
-- Todd/Leviathn
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Remember the Nisei who served in Italy in WW2 - highest total of combat decorations ever for a unit of that size if memory serves - and this when their relatives back home were interned in camps.
Guess people don't learn much from history.
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Originally posted by demaw1
Subaros.....
I am saddened by your response, semantics ? Please point to where i said that. Dont infur your thoughts, point to my wording.
If you had stopped at no, or went on with out putting words in my mouth you would have been honest.
FYI I think those that said we should really check them out are right, but we cant even do that can we? Once again we punished the whole of germany for a fraction of nazis or should we have surrendered? Or was all of germany nazis?
How do you know what my logig was ,since there are other answers , how do you know one of them was not my logic?
I'll make this a Reader's Digest Condensed version.
You said:
Should America deny military service to Muslims?
I said:
No.
Then I asked you:
What's the next question, rounding up all Muslims to internment camps?
Simple, no?
Yet you can't even answer that question.
I gave you my reasons why I asked and responded as I did.
I can't make you read or understand, you have to do that on your own.
Dude, you make my head hurt. How much longer are you going to keep dancing around and around?
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Originally posted by demaw1
Subaros....
You better read again your own post as you did not say whats the next question, roundinding up the muslims
You said [where were you with your rounding up questions when] etc. .... big difference.
You know it subaros what I asked was simple, a retraction. When I found out I was wrong, oh forget it ,
It is sad.
Already answered and explained. 28th post in this thread, 2nd one by me:
Let's say you get your way and Congress passes laws to outlaw Muslims from our military. They wouldn't be "rounded up"? How would you propose our military get those innocent Muslim individuals that refuse to give up? They'd have to be hunted down and rounded up, no?
Keep dancing around the subject.
I'll ask this again:
What's the next question, rounding up all Muslims to internment camps?
I'll ask it another way.
Do you feel we should deport all Muslims and/or intern them in camps so they can be watched?
Yes or No?
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Originally posted by Gixer
Maybe the US Army could create all muslim regiments for frontal assaults like they use to a few years ago with blacks?
...-Gixer
What Gixer???
And as for the thread generaly, I disagree with the idea to ban all muslims from military service as it's very unamerican.
However I do feel that in this age of Oklahoma City, 911 and the current wars that the army must be more aware of any soldier who is a member of any religious or political extremist group. Just as I imagine the government was aware of communists in the army during the cold war..
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Should America deny military service to Muslims?
no, of course not. what we did to japanese americans during ww2 was wrong, hopefully we will never stoop to such a racist policy again.
imo the enemy of civilized society is terrorists, whatever their religious beliefs
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Originally posted by B17Skull12
no,
stupid idea. if they want to serve let them. if they become a traitor, then discharge unhonourably, and put them on probation.
Discharge? Probation? My ass! If they turn traitor it`s take em to the gallows or the wall time.
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The last half dozen or so American traitors that were caught passing info to foreign countries, im talking FBI and CIA and US military, I dont recall ANY of them being muslim...
This is just as stupid and near sighted as looking at German or Japanese Americans (Or German Canadians, thats my side of the family), as something less than trustworthy in WW2. Stupid. There is not a shred of evidence that muslims are any more prone to ending up as spies or as any other ethnic or religious group.
Learn from history or repeat it. Btw muslim fundamentalism is only ONE threat the US and the west faces right now, its not the only one. You could think up a rationale for distrusting almost any group of people if you set your (small) mind to it.
Look at Tim Macvey...quite the hero he turned out be be huh?
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Originally posted by GScholz
How do you know? Have you been there?
Your probably right about the avatar....
as far as lack of muslim outrage... Its not a tinfoil hat theory in the US... Im sure a bright guy like you can come up with more than one link to an anti-islamic terrorist demonstration in the middle east in the last several months, or show a link to a middle eastern demonstration over child killing in Beslam?
On the other hand I have read where a muslim in England yesterday affirmed that the killing of children was ok...
On topic... Its not realistic to ban Muslims from military service, and shouldn't be advised...
IKON
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Subaros...
You are being totaly dishonest, are you serious or just having fun at my expense?
You said,...where were you with your rounding up questions when etc.
Yet I never said anything about rounding up, show me where I did, show me the words you accuse me off.
Now you are asking....what is the next question,rounding up muslims and putting them in interment camps? Nothing wrong with that question....that is not what u said the first time,you just dont have enough character to admit it. That is sad.
The answer to this question and this one only is NO, but we need to keep our options open. Remember in russia the muslims shot those poor babies in the back as they were running out the doors.
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Originally posted by demaw1
Nonsense? again do you have the guts to face the little girl and tell her , her daddy is dead because someone he trusted killed him, tell her it is all nonsense.
Who are you to speak for them or what they would think? You should be ashamed of yourself for such a transparent and shallow debating tactic. Make a valid point, and we'll continue to talk.
-- Todd/Leviathn
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Thrila....
go back to post with time of 12:27 am and the response is there.
I seem to be in a running debate with 5or 6 people that cannot answer a question. To save time I respond to each one as they know what they said and what I am responding to.
That way when someone comes in the middle of debate, he/she will have to read each persons post and my response to kknow what is going on. that way he/she cannot misdirect or ,sad to say lie without my knowing it. Simple out numbered rules of debate for survival.
Since you brought up the quran I assume you know something about it.
You are right with one exception,thou shalt not murder fellow muslims.Why do you think the kidnapped muslims were let go and the others died?
The same quran says you must kill all infadels,which is anyone who is not a muslim, which happens to include you.
Suicide IS considered a muslim act even beyond a normal battle death. Hence the virgins. This is chapter and verse, and this is what they teach there kids,even here in the usa.[ proof is simple to bring up]
You are right ,how does someone know .I certianly dont, it is sad bit even the lowest number is 185 million. Whos right, congressman rangel, or muslim historians,some of whom have risked their lives to say what they have. I dont know.
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Anonymous.....
Thank you for your post I agree with you. Thing is so many people think the arab muslim is stupid, but they are as sharp as a tack. What we think up now ,they have had in the works for years.
It is sad, I wish we were facing ww2 instead.
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Demaw,
GHOSTH...If you feel your response is not over the top, for my response to you, so be it.
Rest assured, my jewish friends trust me so your inference means nothing to me.
Question, how is my pointing out a similar problem in our past over the top?
That is what history is for, to show us where we made mistakes in the past. To try to avoid them in the future.
What inference sir?
And what do your Jewish friends have to do with this?
Granted, you made one (1) Valid point.
The Japanese were for the most part loyal. We however did NOT know that at the time.
Same as we don't know now how many can be trusted & how many can't.
So rather than expose those people to a situtation where they could be tempted. Or even influenced by outside forces. Let them serve elsewhere.
Its the easy, ethical solution that hurts NO ONE.
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OT: Discussion within the context of the topic is fine. However, if you respond to a very off topic post, then the reponse, along with the original goes away unless the reponse is in reference to the original post of the thread.
Doing otherwise is what creates 200+ post count threads. They cease being about the original topic.
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If the discussion is so important, then start a thread about it.
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I am sorry you fell that way skuzzy. As the person that was called every name from moran to racist, and had my thread twisted every which way but lose, I admit made me do 1 personal attack I know of.
How ever I believe I can handle my self in a civilized way with out this type of interuption. As scholtz said you deleted a lot of time and effert on a subject that will soon come to the front from my sources. It seemed after all the ranting and raving some of us were narrowing the gap , not to agreement but to real debate.
Remember power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutaly.
We and I, must remember this is your bussiness, and you have the right to do as you please.
I hope if you believe this response went over the top I will still be able to play aces hi, guess it is up to you.
respectfully demaw.