General Forums => Custom Skins => Topic started by: Nomde on September 05, 2004, 09:16:13 PM
Title: Gabby Gabreski
Post by: Nomde on September 05, 2004, 09:16:13 PM
Hi Gents, Here's my latest almost ready for posting. Please give me your thoughts on any mods plz.
This skin is for the P47-D25
Francis "Gabby" Gabreski of the 56th FG was the USAAF leading ace in the European theater of operations with 28 kills. In July of '44, Gabby had just returned from his last operation and there's was a flight getting ready to go out. The operation was going into an area where he thought there would be a chance for another kill, so he decided to ready up. During this last flight, Gabby was strafing a German field and got too low while extending, and the prop of his plane clipped the farmland and he had to ditch. He was captured and spent the remainder of the war as a POW.
This plane is a rendition of Gabby's plane in June of '44. The invasion strips are still visible from d-day operation.
This one was just a fun one as I thought the sun background looked cool :) (http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/588_1094435481_gabby_05.jpg)
Title: Gabby Gabreski
Post by: United on September 05, 2004, 09:33:08 PM
Very very nice, but JPEGs dont do it justice. :) I know it looks even better in game.
Keep up the good work!
Title: Gabby Gabreski
Post by: nopoop on September 05, 2004, 09:38:27 PM
Bruahahahaha !!!
GREAT WORK !!
WE HAVE A FUGGIN SQUAD !!!
See my post :D
Title: Gabby Gabreski
Post by: nopoop on September 05, 2004, 11:01:17 PM
Only thing I noticed besides your control surface shadowing which is great and I NEED to learn, is back off the opacity of the kill flags. They stand out, and they shoudn't.
You givin jug lessons ??
Huh ?????
Title: Gabby Gabreski
Post by: Sp4de on September 05, 2004, 11:58:49 PM
Garden NOMDE!!!!!!!! lolololol wtg:rofl
Title: Gabby Gabreski
Post by: Nomde on September 06, 2004, 01:44:44 AM
Yep, Gabby's got alot of those little flags on that plane doesn't he. Then he goes and chooses to put the german national flag on instead of the standard black crosses. After I had reduced one of those flags to proper size (bout 12 pixel width), it looked so bad I had to fiddle with it for a couple hours just to make it look right.
I'm a insomniac anyways and it gave me something to do, hehe :)
Lessons.... Hmmmm... 2 sheep an a case of sam adams and ya got a deal :D
Just give me a shout when we in the main arena nopoop, we can hook up in DA and i'll show ya what little I know :)
Ok, here's a closer view of the skin with the kills opacity set to 50%. (http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/588_1094454590_gabby_07.jpg)
Title: Gabby Gabreski
Post by: Octavius on September 06, 2004, 02:18:33 AM
Great skin Nomde!!
Hate to spoil the party, but do those kill flags, being swastikas, violate the terms of approval?
Title: Gabby Gabreski
Post by: Nomde on September 06, 2004, 02:30:18 AM
Nopoop, To create the shading try playing with this....
1. First, mask out an elongated rectangle along the edge you want to make a shadow over, make sure it's at the right angle you want. the witdh of the mask will determine how far out the feathering (gradiant) will go. 2. In the palette option, the forground will be black, and the background should be set to no color. 3. Goto the brush setup and use one with a larger size then the mask. 4. Goto the forground color setup and instead of using a solid color, set it to gradiant.
Now here's where it might be different for you, depending on what program used for painting. I use PSP 8.1 and they have a number of gradiant option. I can set the style of gradiant, forground to background feathering, or visa versa, and I can set the angle of the gradiant too.
5. I'll set the angle of the gradiant to the proper angle of the surface i'm working with, and make sure the masked portion is where I want the gradiant shadow. 6. I have the gradiant set to forground to background color. 7. Using the brush I setup earlier, I'll make a pass over the masked area and try to do it in one pass. successive passes just doesn't look right to me, so it usually takes me a couple tries.
Hope this helps bro
Title: Gabby Gabreski
Post by: Nomde on September 06, 2004, 03:16:12 AM
Quote
Originally posted by Octavius do those kill flags, being swastikas, violate the terms of approval?
Good Question Oct, i'll Have to check in with HT and get a calling on this. I thought that ruling was in effect for the larger prints on the tail of the german planes. To be honest, i didn't even have a second thought on this, thx for bringing it to my attention.
The flag as is it, is hardly discernable. I had to work with the flag for awhile before it even looked right from a reasonable distance. I can change the flags to the more standard black crosses lined in white, makes it easier too.
I guess it'll come down to historical accuracy vs German Law.
Title: Re: Gabby Gabreski
Post by: Furball on September 06, 2004, 03:18:26 AM
Nice skin, but this isn't true : -
Quote
Originally posted by Nomde Francis "Gabby" Gabreski of the 56th FG was the allies leading ace in the European theater of operations with 28 kills.
Title: Gabby Gabreski
Post by: Nomde on September 06, 2004, 03:23:49 AM
Please enlighten me kind sir :)
Title: Gabby Gabreski
Post by: Furball on September 06, 2004, 03:27:19 AM
leading allied ace in ETO? with 28? well, if you are not including soviet aces, Johhnie Johnson had 38 victories (all single engined fighters)
http://www.wings-fine-arts.com/johnniejohnson.htm
Title: Gabby Gabreski
Post by: Guppy35 on September 06, 2004, 03:50:34 AM
Since I'm not a skin maker, I hate to be critical, but a couple of things stand out.
First, and I don't know if it's possible, but the windscreen and canopy frame was silver on his bird. See the included color scan. Also note in the image that there is a white rectangle outlined in red, that I imagine had Gabby's name along with his crew chief and armoror in it. (http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/169_1094460162_gabby2.jpg)
And I'm not convinced that the fuselage stripes looked that way. If you look at the black and white image included, the white clearly goes 'under' the star and bar and it sure seems to be black between the white. (http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/169_1094460128_gabby1.jpg)
I've seen the fuselage stripes done that way on models etc, but I wonder if, like with William Shomo's P51 "The Flying Undertaker", that the marks left from masking the stripes has been misinterpeted as an outline.
Needless to say, if all the great 56th FG skins get in the game, and enough folks get together in the air with them, it will make for one heckuva screenshot :)
Dan/Slack
Title: Gabby Gabreski
Post by: nopoop on September 06, 2004, 10:41:22 AM
My scanners on the blink but on page 69 of Osprey's Thunderbolt aces of the eighth air force there's a picture of his plane with a crowd around it. The stripes are as Nomde painted. No filled in black, just thin stripes ala' this plate.
Jeez now I gotta mess with my scanner...Oh I wanted to do THAT today...
Title: Gabby Gabreski
Post by: Nomde on September 06, 2004, 11:54:47 AM
Furball, Thanks for the correction, I should have noted he was the highest scoring USAAF pilot. Correction edited in previous post. Salute. Here's some good info on Gabby, I like the second link best as it gives a more complete history.
Gabby Gabreski (http://usfighter.tripod.com/gabby.htm) Gabby's History (http://www.acepilots.com/usaaf_gabby.html)
Guppy, Thanks for the input bro, this is how we get the most historical accurate planes as possible.... input/critique.
1. Now for me to enlighten you on some aspects of the P47 cockpit painting.... On the subject of the cockpit, I worked for hours trying to get that puppy silver without affecting the left wing root. I finally had to reverse engineer the mapping of the cockpit on the page - input more hours.... Apparently, when the powers that be mapped the 3d model to the 2d surface, which gets painted, they mapped the lower left wing root to the same area as the cockpit center. So, the cockpit needs to be the same color on this model. To make matters worse, it was double mapped depending on the angle of view you have. When you have an external view of the cockpit with the pilot visible, the paint error is greater then when you move position where the pilot disappears. It's hard to explain this if you're not familiar to the P47 painting, i'll take some time to redo this and post a couple shots....
2. The white rectangle outlined in red has been added, thanks. I was looking at that and was wondering weather to model it or not, you convinced me to change my ways :)
3. I'm not sure what you mean on this 3rd critique. The white stripe does go below the stars and bars exactly as shown and all pictures I have seen of Gabby's plane show the black strips removed from the fuse. The paint there was an olive drab.
In painting this rendering of Gabby's plane, I used as many references as possible, all of which show the left side of Gabby's plane. I used model references to show the topside and rightside angles and I tried to get it as close as possible. As far as the cockpit, I can redo the wingroot color to seagrey camo and paint the cockpit the same color, this may be the best compromise.
Thanks again for the input gents
Title: Gabby Gabreski
Post by: nopoop on September 06, 2004, 12:15:00 PM
I FIXED THE SCANNER !!!
I AM A GOD !!!
Here's the photo I was talking about. It verifies Nomde's invasion stripe representation.
Nomde, isn't that left wingroot a whole lot of fun ??? Actually there's a few places on that 3D model that are fun :D
Tweak and look, tweak and look, tweak and look, tweak and look, tweak and look, tweak and look, tweak and look...
I still have the ol' tweak and look left to do on the Stalag.. But I'm a god today so I might just drink cheeep beer.
Necture of the gods
Title: Gabby Gabreski
Post by: Nomde on September 06, 2004, 12:22:55 PM
WTG on the scanner nopoop :)
now if I could only get these dang rudder pedals working..... Jesus... working on so many things now my flying time is nill :p
Title: Gabby Gabreski
Post by: Nomde on September 06, 2004, 12:38:49 PM
Ok, I just talked with Dale at HT Creations and he says no swastika period. :D
Hmmm... I'm thinking of putting the Black crosses on for the kill markings. What do y'all think of a red background and the black cross in the center? I'll do a quick rendition and post it.....
But it isn't. You can't make out the "swastika" it's a blur of pixels. Fogitabotit.
A swastika that can actually be seen is a totally different story. You'll fiddle for hours and you'll be the only one that knows it's not a swastika. Everyone else will assume it is :D
Title: Gabby Gabreski
Post by: Guppy35 on September 08, 2004, 11:06:17 PM
Nomde, for what it's worth.
I stopped off at the bookstore after work and was looking at the latest "Flypast" magazine.
In it was a photo of Gabby in the cockpit of that Jug. The photo was from the front left side looking back.
Two things jumped out. First was the photo was from a time after the upper fuselage and wing stripes were painted out. Might be a thought since the Schilling "Hairless Joe" Jug and the "Stalag Luft III D-11 are from that time frame.
Second was the black of the fuselage invasion stripes was clearly there, not just OD between the white stripes. There was absolutely no doubt that it was black between the white.
As the magazine wasn't worth the cost, I didn't buy it just to post the photo :)
Dan/Slack
Title: Gabby Gabreski
Post by: Cobra412 on September 08, 2004, 11:59:59 PM
Guppy when doing The Flying Undertaker I was a bit leary about that too. Considering the only photo I can find shows no yellow bands on the fuselage and you also can't tell about the wings.
I emaild HTC about it saying I would change it considering the only original photo I can find doesn't have them. I also noticed that his spinner may be white and not yellow. If you have any photos that may clear this up it would be greatly appreciated.
BTW that skin looks great. I really need to learn the ins and outs of this skinning thing.
Title: Gabby Gabreski
Post by: Guppy35 on September 09, 2004, 12:41:42 AM
Quote
Originally posted by Cobra412 Guppy when doing The Flying Undertaker I was a bit leary about that too. Considering the only photo I can find shows no yellow bands on the fuselage and you also can't tell about the wings.
I emaild HTC about it saying I would change it considering the only original photo I can find doesn't have them. I also noticed that his spinner may be white and not yellow. If you have any photos that may clear this up it would be greatly appreciated.
BTW that skin looks great. I really need to learn the ins and outs of this skinning thing.
Cobra, they talk about the markings on the Flying Undertaker fairly extensively in the Osprey book "Mustang and Thunderbolt Aces of the Pacific and CBI"
It is now believed that what people thought was yellow outlines to the black fuselage bands was overspray on tape residue from the markings.
Photos in the book also show the wing bands that are just black.
Profile is from that book and I believe it is accurate.
Title: Gabby Gabreski
Post by: Cobra412 on September 09, 2004, 12:51:22 AM
Well I guess I'll have to make a change to my skin. I want it to be accurate. I used a few mustang books for my research and what i could find on the net about it. I guess I should have known better considering two of the books were by the same author.
The one that made me skeptical was "P-51 Mustang Nose Art Gallery" by John M. and Donna Campbell. On page 11 they have a black and white photo of the Undertaker that clearly shows some kind of bands atleast on the fuselage markings. This photo is the exact same one I have in color. The color one you can't see this though. I figured it was due to the sun reflecting off the skin. The wings though don't show any signs of yellow bands.
Title: Gabby Gabreski
Post by: glenmorangie on September 09, 2004, 07:43:46 AM
Quote
Originally posted by Guppy35 (http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/169_1094460128_gabby1.jpg) Dan/Slack
Quote
Originally posted by nopoop (http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/474_1094490360_gabby.jpg)
On the stripes... Carfully note the first photo, where the black stripes are clearly visible on the underside of the fueslage. You can't see the upper stripes.
In the second photo, the lower fuselage is not visible. It was common on P-51s to paint over the upper surface stripes and leave the lower part intact. My guess is the top black was painted out, but not the lower. Is there a picture out there from the side?
And...The pictures might have been taken at different times...
Title: Gabby Gabreski
Post by: Guppy35 on September 09, 2004, 01:27:38 PM
Quote
Originally posted by glenmorangie On the stripes... Carfully note the first photo, where the black stripes are clearly visible on the underside of the fueslage. You can't see the upper stripes.
In the second photo, the lower fuselage is not visible. It was common on P-51s to paint over the upper surface stripes and leave the lower part intact. My guess is the top black was painted out, but not the lower. Is there a picture out there from the side?
And...The pictures might have been taken at different times...
No doubt on the images being taken at different times. Invasion stripes were taken off or painted over on the upper surfaces after a month, which puts the one image taken between July 6 and July 20 when Gabby went down, with the other photos with full invasion stripes from June 6-July 6 time frame.
So the question becomes, did the outlined white stripes exist only on top of he fuselage as has been suggested? Were those photos taken during the painting of invasion stripes and the black hadn't been painted and what we see is the masking for the white? Did it have just white on top and both black and white lower bands, and if so why did they do it that way when everyone else had complete black and white? etc etc :)
Dan/Slack
Title: Gabby Gabreski
Post by: 6GunUSMC on September 09, 2004, 02:52:43 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Nomde Ok, I just talked with Dale at HT Creations and he says no swastika period. :D
Hmmm... I'm thinking of putting the Black crosses on for the kill markings. What do y'all think of a red background and the black cross in the center? I'll do a quick rendition and post it.....
Chalk another one up for the Politically Correct crowd...
Title: Gabby Gabreski
Post by: glenmorangie on September 09, 2004, 05:56:10 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Guppy35 No doubt on the images being taken at different times. Invasion stripes were taken off or painted over on the upper surfaces after a month, which puts the one image taken between July 6 and July 20 when Gabby went down, with the other photos with full invasion stripes from June 6-July 6 time frame. Dan/Slack
Mostly, I'd agree the stripes came off quickly and were much more crudely applied than people usually make them. However, the pictures I have of Old Crow and Glamorous Glennis that were taken 'around' Christmas 1944 and show the underside stripes still there. The underwing stripes are not visible, leaving some question on them.
My understanding is the 56th FG did not paint the overstripe camouflage until they moved to France, but I am unsure what the exact time-frame was on that.
Title: Gabby Gabreski
Post by: Guppy35 on September 09, 2004, 11:02:25 PM
Quote
Originally posted by glenmorangie Mostly, I'd agree the stripes came off quickly and were much more crudely applied than people usually make them. However, the pictures I have of Old Crow and Glamorous Glennis that were taken 'around' Christmas 1944 and show the underside stripes still there. The underwing stripes are not visible, leaving some question on them.
My understanding is the 56th FG did not paint the overstripe camouflage until they moved to France, but I am unsure what the exact time-frame was on that.
Bottom half fuselage stripes were the last to go and were still common into the winter of 44-45. The underwing stripes were ordered off in September 44
The word came down from Allied command to delete the upper wing surface markings in early July 44 so it wasn't just a group decision Since the one image shows Gabby's D-25 without the upper stripes it was clearly done before he went down in that bird on July 20th
Dan/Slack
Title: Gabby Gabreski
Post by: Nomde on September 10, 2004, 10:22:39 PM
ok, Based on this research, i'll paint the underside stripes black and white, but keep the top the same.
Thanks for the input gentlemen, excellent work :aok