Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Dawggus on September 06, 2004, 11:58:18 AM
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I bet there have been enough experiments and studies of group dynamics to answer why people respond so differently to what I guess Ill call the weakling versus bully phenomenon. Lots of folks have talked on these boards about how the community and HTC responded when the Rooks were in the hole a few years back, compared to when the Rooks have larger numbers today, and I have wondered the same thing. The three-Country setup we have made the two situations different in at least one major way.
When the Rooks were in the hole, and both the Knights and Bishops seemed to have parity, what Ill call the 98-pound weakling phenomenon occurred. Like the guy in the old Atlas ads, the Rooks got picked on and had sand kicked in their face a lot ;). HTC made some minor game tweaks, but didnt take any authoritative measures to try to address the situation. Some Knight and Bishop Squads felt sorry for the weakling and decided to help out on a temporary basis. And the Rooks themselves decided to sign-up for Charles Atlas body-building program to address their situation. In other words, the community policed itself and, over time, corrected the imbalance.
Now, currently, when the Rooks numbers swelled, and again the Knights and Bishops seemed to have parity, what Ill call the bully phenomenon occurred. The Knights and Bishops were outraged that the bully was pushing everyone around, especially on Sunday nights. HTC took an authoritative stand to make some major game tweaks aimed at parity. There was not a large hue and cry from the Knights and Bishops to get more organized to fight the bully. And the Rooks themselves did little to try to correct the imbalance voluntarily. In other words, the community did little to police itself, albeit this was over a relatively short time period, and looked to the man to fix the problem.
Now Im sure you can and will poke a million holes in and correct my analogy. Im not saying either group is right or wrong, or either approach is correct or incorrect. My real question is, are there psychological studies of group reactions over time to weaklings and bullies that would help explain the different response that we have seen in the Aces High community around these two situations? It seems to me that society kind of laughs off the weaklings, feels sorry for them but by and large tells them to pull themselves up by their bootstraps and take care of themselves. On the other hand, society seems to react strongly to bullies, passes laws to protect us from them, and takes quick action to put them in their place.
Cya Up!
Dawg
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After several seconds of intensive search involving online medical journals this is all I could come up with:
(http://www.sandowplus.co.uk/Competition/Atlas/Adverts/atlas-ad-1940s.jpg)
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The community was in the process of correcting itself when the ENY system was implimented. Alot of Rook squadrons and individuals began rotating especially on Sunday nights. The reason they did this was simply because there is very little to kill when Rooks have overwhelming numerical superiority. Given time a portion of those 'part-time' defectors would have made a permanent home elsewhere as happened to some extent when Rooks were in the basement. Since the ENY system was implimented in the middle of this process it essentially aborted it. Instead of making people want to help the underdogs it has actually galvanized country fidelity. No more do people feel badly about having numbers when they are forced to fly inferior planes, they feel having to fly inferior planes is enough of a challenge for themselves and an advantage for those who are outnumbered.
Most know I fly for Knights alot when they are outnumbered. Knights have perhaps the worst teamwork and co-ordination of any country. I have not noticed any improvement in this area in the year+ I have been freelancing in Knightland. Given enough time and frustration of being in the bucket Knights may very well have adapted more co-operative teamplay tactics, but since the ENY system is implimented there is no real incentive to do so. The ENY system is like a crutch, it is actually a serious detriment to those who are disadvantaged as it creates the illusion of parity on the surface without the substance of it underneath thereby removing the impetus behind the development of successfull tactics that work when disadvantaged numerically.
No matter what Knights, Bishops or Rooks fly or what the numbers, Rooks are still going to be the most tightly co-ordinated, teamplay oriented players. They became this way via 'baptism by fire', while harsh, it was effective in building comraderie and co-ordination. The other two teams are not going to go thru the same process Rooks did as there is now no 'fire' for the 'baptism' process.
Zazen
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Originally posted by Zazen13
Knights have perhaps the worst teamwork and co-ordination of any country
It's the beer Zazs
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Originally posted by Zazen13
...
No matter what Knights, Bishops or Rooks fly or what the numbers, Rooks are still the most tightly co-ordinated, teamplay oriented players. They became this way via 'baptism by fire', while harsh, it was effective in building comraderie and co-ordination. The other two teams are not going to go thru the same process Rooks did as there is no 'fire' for the 'baptism' process.
Exactly.
And the scary thought which may be crossing some minds is just how much more dangerous Rooks could become if ENY forces them to not only become proficient in other planes, but also increase their level of teamwork because of it.
What's that old saying about the "briar patch?"
-DoK
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Originally posted by Zazen13
The community was in the process of correcting itself when the ENY system was implimented. Alot of Rook squadrons and individuals began rotating especially on Sunday nights. The reason they did this was there is very little to kill when Rooks have overwhelming numerical superiority. Given time a portion of those 'part-time' defectors would have made a permanent home elsewhere as happened to some extent when Rooks were in the basement. Since the ENY system was implimented in the middle of this process it essentially aborted it. Instead of making people want to help the underdogs it has actually galvanized country fidelity. No more do people feel badly about having numbers when they are forced to fly inferior planes, they feel having to fly inferior planes is enough of a challenge for themselves and an advantage for those who are outnumbered.
Most know I fly for Knights alot when they are outnumbered. Knights have perhaps the worst teamwork and co-ordination of any country. I have not noticed any improvement in this area in the year+ I have been freelancing in Knightland. Given enough time and frustration of being in the bucket Knights may very well have adapted more co-operative teamplay tactics, but since the ENY system is implimented there is no real incentive to do so. The ENY system is like a crutch, it is actually a serious detriment to those who are disadvantaged as it creates the illusion of parity on the surface without the substance of it underneath thereby removing the impetus behind the development of successfull tactics that work when disadvantaged numerically.
No matter what Knights, Bishops or Rooks fly or what the numbers, Rooks are still going to be the most tightly co-ordinated, teamplay oriented players. They became this way via 'baptism by fire', while harsh, it was effective in building comraderie and co-ordination. The other two teams are not going to go thru the same process Rooks did as there is now no 'fire' for the 'baptism' process.
Zazen
Well hell. Easy enough theory to test, then. I say temporarily suspend the ENY disablement for a two week period and see how the waters fair. Will the overwhelming numbers disparity resume or will the community "police itself?" If it works out as you suspect .... keep it disabled. If it goes back to what it was ... bring it back.
See? Look. I'm on your side now. :D
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Originally posted by Arlo
Well hell. Easy enough theory to test, then. I say temporarily suspend the ENY disablement for a two week period and see how the waters fair. Will the overwhelming numbers disparity resume or will the community "police itself?" If it works out as you suspect .... keep it disabled. If it goes back to what it was ... bring it back.
See? Look. I'm on your side now. :D
It takes time, Rooks were in the bucket well over 6 months with no reprieve. Human nature would even things out on its own if given time. Impatience and rash measures are actually operating in fundamental contradiction to human nature and are serving to thwart its natural tendency and gravitation toward a state of equilibrium and balance.
Zazen
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Originally posted by DoKGonZo
Exactly.
And the scary thought which may be crossing some minds is just how much more dangerous Rooks could become if ENY forces them to not only become proficient in other planes, but also increase their level of teamwork because of it.
What's that old saying about the "briar patch?"
-DoK
How in the world can it be a bad thing, then, eh? I flew Rook a bit recently and I considered dragging the squad there ("dragging" being an exaggeration. We don't hold to "fanatical chesspiece loyalty" ... they got used to logging on Knight outa habit). We could possibly even get us some F4U-1 recruits outa it. :D
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Originally posted by Zazen13
It takes time, Rooks were in the bucket well over 6 months with no reprieve. Human nature would even things out on its own if given time. Impatience and rash measures are actually operating in fundamental contradiction to human nature and are serving to thwart its natural tendencies toward balance.
Zazen
So .. you're sayin' that it wouldn't work? Because ENY limitation does work, Zaz. Just sayin'. ;)
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Originally posted by Arlo
So .. you're sayin' that it wouldn't work? Because ENY limitation does work, Zaz. Just sayin'. ;)
I don't understand what you are saying, can you re-phrase?
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Originally posted by Arlo
How in the world can it be a bad thing, then, eh? I flew Rook a bit recently and I considered dragging the squad there ("dragging" being an exaggeration. We don't hold to "fanatical chesspiece loyalty" ... they got used to logging on Knight outa habit). We could possibly even get us some F4U-1 recruits outa it. :D
The current ENY is bad because (a) it doesn't address the core gameplay issues, (b) the current system doesn't apply ENY evenly, (c) it penalizes people who aren't really contributing to the problem, (d) it's not fair to squads or squad leaders who need to move or change rides - both of which should be voluntary, not coerced.
The fact that Rooks appear to be coping, like they coped with the earlier long-term odds imbalance against them, doesn't mean that the "fix" is what's best for the game.
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Originally posted by Zazen13
I don't understand what you are saying, can you re-phrase?
1: You asserted that the community was in the process of being able to handle number disparity by policing itself when HTC unfairly imposed the system of ENY restriction on it.
2: I said let's test this theory and ask HTC to temporarily suspend ENY restriction and see what happens over a two week (or longer) period and if the community can't (or won't) find a suitable method on it's own, HTC can turn it back on.
3: You suddenly lost confidence in your statment and tried to bargain for a time extension.
4: I asserted that the ENY restriction accomplished what it was designed to do from practically day one.
I still say let's test the waters. I'm all for it. I figured you would be too.
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Originally posted by Arlo
After several seconds of intensive search involving online medical journals this is all I could come up with:
(http://www.sandowplus.co.uk/Competition/Atlas/Adverts/atlas-ad-1940s.jpg)
ROFLMAO ... THAT'S IT, I can't believe you found it!!!
Hmm, Charles is a lot uglier than I remember :).
Cya Up!
Dawg
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Originally posted by Arlo
1: You asserted that the community was in the process of being able to handle number disparity by policing itself when HTC unfairly imposed the system of ENY restriction on it.
2: I said let's test this theory and ask HTC to temporarily suspend ENY restriction and see what happens over a two week (or longer) period and if the community can't (or won't) find a suitable method on it's own, HTC can turn it back on.
3: You suddenly lost confidence in your statment and tried to bargain for a time extension.
4: I asserted that the ENY restriction accomplished what it was designed to do from practically day one.
I still say let's test the waters. I'm all for it. I figured you would be too.
Ummm, I said the process of balancing was underway prior to the ENY system implimentation. I never said it would show tangible results in two weeks or any other time period. I am not a prognosticator, I have no idea how long it would take, all I can do is assure you it would happen inevitably as surely as the sun sets at night and rises in the morning, it cannot do otherwise, human nature is a constant, completely reliable and predictable.
I disagree that the ENY system is working, last night was a fine example. Practically noone left Rooks and very few if any Rooks logged off as a result of being 'penalized'. Rooks simply flew whatever was allowed and won the reset anyways. If anything, that proves beyond a reasonable doubt that the ENY system is a complete and utter failure in its current incarnation.
Zazen
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Originally posted by Zazen13
I disagree that the ENY system is working, last night was a fine example. Practically noone left Rooks. Rooks simply flew whatever was allowed and won the reset anyways. If anything, that proves beyond a reasonable doubt that the ENY system is a complete and utter failure in its current incarnation.
Zazen
Actually, I agree that last night was a fine example. A fine example of the Rooks getting together and having fun in spite of ENY restrictions. If players prefer that to switching sides, hey ... go for it. But no, it doesn't prove ENY restriction is a failure at all. That's just wishful thinking on the part of some. :D
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Originally posted by Arlo
Actually, I agree that last night was a fine example. A fine example of the Rooks getting together and having fun in spite of ENY restrictions. If players prefer that to switching sides, hey ... go for it. But no, it doesn't prove ENY restriction is a failure at all. That's just wishful thinking on the part of some. :D
The desired goal of the ENY system is to create numerical parity, did that happen last night? Nope. It failed to create parity, its one and only design purpose. Making Rooks or any other country fly more challening planes was never the goal of the ENY system, it was supposed to be a means to an end. The means existed but the desired end never materialized, that is a failure.
Zazen
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ENY restrictions HAVE encouraged greater parity by and FAR better than anything so far. But it wasn't designed to disallow the possiblity of occasional anomolies where players seem to prefer plane restrictions. That should be obvious by now. It merely proved that players still have a choice. Last night players chose to remain Rook and have overwhelming numbers of restricted types of planes. And they won the war. Apparently it was yet another reason to whine about ENY restriction. :D
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Originally posted by Arlo
ENY restrictions HAVE encouraged greater parity by and FAR better than anything so far. But it wasn't designed to disallow the possiblity of occasional anomolies where players seem to prefer plane restrictions. That should be obvious by now. It merely proved that players still have a choice. Last night players chose to remain Rook and have overwhelming numbers of restricted types of planes. And they won the war. Apparently it was yet another reason to whine about ENY restriction. :D
Sorry buddy, that may be your opinion, but it is not HT's opinion. I can't be bothered to dig up his post but he said something to this effect...(I'm para-phrasing of course)
The ENY system is being implimented to force an equalizing of MA numbers, I have chosen some arbitrary settings, if these are not effective in equalizing the numbers I will keep increasing the penalty as far as it takes to do so. I do not care if people switch sides or simply log-off, one way or another the sides, at any given time, will become numerically equal before I am done.
That's no joke, that's what he said. So, if you think you've heard whining now, just wait until he starts rachetting up the penalty settings. He clearly states that flying with superior numbers in inferior planes is not an acceptable option. He is just using that as a cattle-prod to herd us over to whichever side happens to have lower numbers at any given time.
If you don't remember it or believe me do a search and some thread scanning and you'll find it.
Zazen
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No .. by and large the ENY restriction has been an overwhelming success. Just because a few players decided not to log when they normally would because they saw the ENY kicking in and they wanted to make some sort of political statement "proving it doesn't work" (read the posts) .... last night ... doesn't mean the system doesn't work as designed. Maybe EVERY Sunday RJO night will become the political protest night. Maybe EVERY Sunday RJO will have rook players having fun and "winning the war" in spite of restriction. Oh what a disaster!
If anything ... if proved that the sky didn't fall after all. ;)
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Originally posted by Arlo
No .. by and large the ENY restriction has been an overwhelming success. Just because a few players decided not to log when they normally would because they saw the ENY kicking in and they wanted to make some sort of political statement "proving it doesn't work" (read the posts) .... last night ... doesn't mean the system doesn't work as designed. Maybe EVERY Sunday RJO night will become the political protest night. Maybe EVERY Sunday RJO will have rook players having fun and "winning the war" in spite of restriction. Oh what a disaster!
If anything ... if proved that the sky didn't fall after all. ;)
Do you honestly think last night was some kind of organized conspiracy to invalidate the ENY system?!? My God man, you're dellusional. Last night was just an example, Monday nights Bishops have huge numbers, none of them log-off or change sides either, for Knights it's Thursdays, same deal. You say it is effective but the data doesn't back you up. Look at last camp's kill totals, even that data is virtually identical to any previous camp.
Zazen
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Calm down, Pedro. I wasn't the one posting about almost logging off then seeing the upcoming ENY restriction and staying on just to see what happened (along with mentioning that several other Rooks did the same).
If, to you, that sounds like normal player behavior, hey. Hell, he could be lying and making the whole thing up. Which is worse? *ShruG* ;)
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Originally posted by Zazen13
Do you honestly think last night was some kind of organized conspiracy to invalidate the ENY system?!? My God man, you're dellusional. ...
Too bad it wasn't. Imagine if Rooks sucked it up for a whole glorious week of slobbering, knuckle-dragging, SBD-loving Horde pillaging?
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zazen: You are not coming close to any thing I have ever said. Quite frankly you might wish to dig up my quotes. And I realy do not apreciated have words put in my mouth that I never said.
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Originally posted by DoKGonZo
Too bad it wasn't. Imagine if Rooks sucked it up for a whole glorious week of slobbering, knuckle-dragging, SBD-loving Horde pillaging?
Sounds fun. Get the leaders of Rook command to organize the long-haul war and maybe VF-17 will hop on in to share in the fun and festivities. :)
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I think a better solution then the ENY ordeal is to rename the rooks to the 'queens'. Give them fancy pascal colored planes and let the "el gay" horde have its fun. It might not hurt their numbers too bad, but we could just sit around and make fun of them when numbers are too uneven.
(Not that I have anything against actual queens -- the chess pieces, royal family members, and cross-dressing queers.)
-pellik
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Originally posted by pellik
I think a better solution then the ENY ordeal is to rename the rooks to the 'queens'. Give them fancy pascal colored planes and let the "el gay" horde have its fun. It might not hurt their numbers too bad, but we could just sit around and make fun of them when numbers are too uneven.
Only if we can change the nomenclature of "BishNits" to "Bights."
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It's all in the numbers...
(http://www.halos.de/rooks-kd.png)
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Originally posted by hitech
zazen: You are not coming close to any thing I have ever said. Quite frankly you might wish to dig up my quotes. And I realy do not apreciated have words put in my mouth that I never said.
(http://www.hispanicvista.com/assets/stallowned.jpg)
ack-ack
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Here's mu only problem..The 339thFG was REAL late war...only existed about a year..They only flew the 51B for a real short time...They were a 51D squad...we are modeled after a historic squad and like to fly that way..we have tried to move our squad night to less popular nights to fly but that still hasn't worked...we didn't choose the plane as much as we chose the squad..now we can't hold our squad night and be happy about it....we took a vote to change countries..and at was 75% to stay rook because of the friendships and teamwork we have there...and to put it out there this game darn near lost an entire squad in the matter of 1 day. There has to be a better way to balance sides..the way we are doing it now only causes hate and discontent...and with lack of a better game to play (as far as MMOG flight sims go) what choice do we have but to stay here....HT has us all over a barrel with this:(
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I believe that this would have been implemented regardless of who was up and who was down.
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Originally posted by pellik
I think a better solution then the ENY ordeal is to rename the rooks to the 'queens'. Give them fancy pascal colored planes and let the "el gay" horde have its fun. It might not hurt their numbers too bad, but we could just sit around and make fun of them when numbers are too uneven.
(Not that I have anything against actual queens -- the chess pieces, royal family members, and cross-dressing queers.)
-pellik
I think this would work. Drop the ENY limiter. When the old ENY ratio hits, Rook plane skins are replaced with the famous BarbieFire skin across the previously ENY limited models. The ganged countries get a chuckle, Rooks still get to horde in La7s and 51Ds and everyone logs off happy.
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Originally posted by Coolridr
Here's mu only problem..The 339thFG was REAL late war...only existed about a year..They only flew the 51B for a real short time...They were a 51D squad...we are modeled after a historic squad and like to fly that way..we have tried to move our squad night to less popular nights to fly but that still hasn't worked...we didn't choose the plane as much as we chose the squad..now we can't hold our squad night and be happy about it....we took a vote to change countries..and at was 75% to stay rook because of the friendships and teamwork we have there...and to put it out there this game darn near lost an entire squad in the matter of 1 day. There has to be a better way to balance sides..the way we are doing it now only causes hate and discontent...and with lack of a better game to play (as far as MMOG flight sims go) what choice do we have but to stay here....HT has us all over a barrel with this:(
You cross-posted this over so I'll cross post over my response.
My respect and admiration for other historically based squadrons in Aces High knows no bounds ... but ... may I make a suggestion (just a suggestion, mind you)?
First ...
Now .... granted .... VF-17 doesn't have as great a chance of losing it's pet ride in the MA as much as the 339th FG does. BUT ... even if we did ... we, long ago, learned that occasionally we may have to widen our historical point of view some. By this I mean the historical relationship VF-17 had with earlier squadrons.
The commanding officer of VF-17 (the only one it had prior to the squad being disbanded and reestablished later as an entire new entity flying F6Fs on the West coast) was also the commanding officer of an F4F squadron that participated in Operation Torch (Escort Fighting Squadron 29 or VGF-29). Kleinman and Halford both served with VF-5 - land based out of Guadalcanal during it's darkest days.
The virtual VF-17 decided long ago to be willing to fly anything blue (we have, since then, adapted to flying anything - period - when blue isn't available. More on that in a bit). We feel an historical connection in the F4F and the F4U. Many pilots got their start in one then went on to be the core nucleus of squadrons formed flying the other.
Secondly (and this is no slam on the MA, so retract claws now, kittens) ....
The MA is not ... nor will it ever be an historical setting. The CT can't mimic it perfectly either ... but it tries. And VF-17 flies both.
But flying the CT regularly requires members of VF-17 to give up thier preferred ride on a regular basis (we're talking F4U setups generally being rare there). So .... we fly other planes when it's not there. And we tend to switch sides to balance the arena. And you know what? Even though we're an historically based squadron devoted to the F4U ... we have fun doing it.
When we want to fly F4Us we can go to the MA. If, by chance, the ENY was to somehow affect the availability of the F4U-1 ... ahem ... we would switch sides and fly it. We should have switched anyhow if numbers ended up THAT extremely lop-sided.
But what we'd rather be doing is flying the F4U in an historical setting against it's traditional foes. Eh ... we all gotta make sacrifices sometimes.
To sum up. There's bound to be some historical connections that your virtual representation of the 339th FG can find to older units that flew the B modell (or even the P-40). But it's just a suggestion. Takes a lil give and take.
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Originally posted by hitech
zazen: You are not coming close to any thing I have ever said. Quite frankly you might wish to dig up my quotes. And I realy do not apreciated have words put in my mouth that I never said.
Originally posted by hitech
Working together is not penalized. We are not trying to implement a system where consentrating your forces is hampered.
But it realy is a basic game concepts that all sides have the same number of players. If you don't belive that concept, please sight one case where a game is not designed with that in mind. And please do not tell me AH is war, because it is not, it is a War game. And games are ment to be fun and fair. While war is not ment to be either fair or fun.
With equal sides, doing what it takes to win , is what game play is. In AH there are multiple levels of winning, makeing a capture,just shooting down more people than shot you down, ending the war. All are items of game play in AH.
Having more on your team gives your side an unfair advantage to all other sides. All items of game play are effected by that imbalance. And there realy is nothing that the sides with less numbers can do about it. They can not swith countries to even the numbers, if they move to the country with more numbers it just makes everything worse. They could make a treaty, but that only works in a defensive mode.
Equal sides is such a basic consept that over the life of AH the sides have maintained a fairly equal number, the resone is realy simple, people have more fun when the sides are equal.
So now the question becomes not IF the sides should be equal,
but how to accomplish that equality with least impact to the social apspect of the game.
Thanks a lot for the idea midnight. Obviously you have put some thought into it.
But have a few issues.
1 Im becomeing more convinced perks are not the way to balance the arena.
Primarly because it is not fair to new users. And the perk system is realy desiged to limit the choice of each user as to how often they can fly some planes. When you try make it a balancing issue you suddenly have created a big economic system And where it would lead becomes very unpredictible results.
2nd your idea of reseting all to 1000 would create a huge cry from those who have been saveing perks. Next it would remove the goal of the new guy to want to to earn points to try out the 262.
3rd with this "use a local multiplier based on a 4 sector area" you suddenly are complety changing the issue at hand.
Basicly I am not against consentration of forces in the arena. That is a very valid war tactic and infact it is a fundemtal doctren that the attacker must have a numbers adavantage. When all sides are equal each country has the choice of how to allocate there forces i.e. in a group to go on attack/ or spread out/ how ever they wish. I do not see this as an issue. With a country imbalance 1 country could still dominate 2 different 4/sector areas while the others putting up adefense would have the same limitations as the large country but only in 1 area, and hence you are back to square 1. More numbers in a country would still be an advantage.
The issue is all about country balance not consentration of forces.
And to put it simply, fairly equal numbers between sides makes a better a game and is lot more fun for every one. I realy can not think of one game either board game/sport/computer game any type game where each side is not equal. It apears to me to be a fundimental game concept.
HiTech
Originally posted by hitech
To begin with I think side imbalencing has not been that much of a problem over the years. Only on a few occasions has things gotten out of wack.
But there have been times when the numbers have gotten far out of wack. We typicly resist any change that forces people to different sides.We typicly are more inclined to giving incentives to changing sides to the lower number country, but so far it has not been a strong enough force to always keep the sides close to balance.
Our current thought is that a country with substantialy more numbers, say in the realm of 20% more will have a time limit imposed between flights. This time would vary with the side balance.
This would have a few effects.
1. No one realy wants to wait to fly another fight, wrather than wait some will either change sides, or log off. Either has the effect of balancing the numbers.
2. The wait time will also have the effect of fewer people acctualy in the air at one time. Hence also balancing the fighting numbers.
Your thoughts?
HiTech
Originally posted by hitech
We are going with a system based on the ENY value using the same formula as the time system uses.
As the number of player increases on a side planes with an ENY value less then the "balance output" will be disabled.
HiTech
I agree with most of your accesment Virgil from a philisophical level.
But consider a few thing.
1. If the community had done what you belive they should HTC would not have changed anything.
2. We have resisted changing any thing for a long time, And out first attempt and providing a country moving force was done only when it became and issue (perk multiplier this was a few years back). This was done to effect other issues as minimly as posible.
3. This is still a buissness, not just a community. Neither can survive with out each.
4. If I belive the country imbalance is making the game less fun, and in the end fun is what creates a bigger player base, and hence more revanue for HTC, dose it not become our responsiblity to ensure it happens?
Midnight: Since you conseed side balance is needed.
Try come up with an idea that does the following.
1. Moves people to the other side.
This is the basic issue, I have herd lots of ideas but most that I have seen are always made to "Not impact me". So they were basicly saying for this small penalty I still won't change countries and still get to fly the way I want. Well that dosn't acomplish the thing you agreed needed to be solved.
HiTech
Did a query of the country totals. This is from the entire subscrition base.
Bish = 31.1%
Knights = 32.2%
Rooks = 36.7 %
As I have been reading the responses this morning somthing struck me. Most of the responses not wanting the time limit all had one thing in common.
Each person did not wish to give up their country to balance the numbers. And because they were not willing to change sides they didn't want the time limit. Well isn't this the basic problem we have right now? That people are not willing to change sides, they want some one else to have to change sides. Or they want to give somthing else to the underdog to apease them, but they are not willing to give up anything to solve the issue.
Even the suggestions of the new guys beeing put into the low number country is imposing limits just like the time limit. And the suggestion of not letting people switch to the high number side is just as limiting as the wait to fly limit.
I belive that most players would like to see the sides more evenly balanced. And most of the alterntive sugestions do not provide much motivation for people to change sides. They also would be extreamly difficult to predict what the outcome would be.
As far as the acctual times go here are a few samples in the range I am thinking. This is based from an average sortie time of 7.5 mins, That was from a random sample of 6 players, I need to queary the enter score base to fine the real average sortie time.
Count Mins Wait
Bish 100 0.00
Knights 120 0.00
Rooks 120 0.00
Count Mins Wait
Bish 100 0.00
Knights 120 0.00
Rooks 140 1.32
Count Mins Wait
Bish 100 0.00
Knights 140 0.00
Rooks 200 5.92
Count Mins Wait
Bish 100 0.00
Knights 130 0.00
Rooks 200 6.66
HiTech
So far my thoughts on alternatives of perks or plane limitation , is that I realy doubt they would motivate people to change sides.
Right now it should be obvious that the perk multiply has almost no effect, implementing somthing similar as sugested might triple the effect but it would still have almost no effect. So what we would be left with, is more complaining, but the problem would still remain.
The other problem I see with limiting the top used planes, is that the numbers advantage would still greatly out wiegh the plane type advantage. In fact the lesser used planes like the p47 start to realy shine when you have a numbers advantage.
I also do not buy into the argument that it would be limiting in any way, all it would be is the big sides choice to wait to fly or to change sides. Thats a choice to make, not a limit.
I have no doubt that the time limit with the right settings would balance the fight, regardless if people changed sides.
And a big thanks for keeping this discussion fairly civil so far.
HiTech
HiTech
Patch 8 is now available for download.
Added a new country balancer that disables available planes based on country number
imbalances and plane ENY values. NOTE: Values for this system may change as the
system is optimized.
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I think picking a fight with HT about this may accomplish alot of good here. Ahem (/sarcasm)
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Hitech,
I could not find the quote where you said you would incrementally increase the ENY modifier until it had the desired effect, but this collection of posts by you directly implicates that very intention. Now that I think about it I actually believe you said this in the MA during one of your Q & A sessions shortly after the implimentation of the ENY system. Clearly, if you read thru what you wrote, especially the portions I highlighted, you state more or less what I said. You start off by saying you do not believe the idea of plane limitation will work (I agree with you), then you say you are going with the system of plane limitation?!? (makes no sense, you contradict your own initial convictions). You follow by saying your 'business goal' is a numerically balanced arena, stating happy customers equals more customers, therefore more revenue for HTC (do we sound happy to you now? Do you think our unhappiness will effect your revenue?). In the patch message itself you say the ENY system will be tweaked for 'optimization' which by your definition is synonomous with numerical parity.
It's pretty clear that your stated intentions are to manipulate the ENY system's values until people on the advantaged side either log-off, cancel their accounts in disgust, or capitulate to your demand they float around like leaves in the breeze to whichever country happens to be disadvantaged at any given time.
If any of this is incorrect, please correct me. I mentioned in my original 'para-phrase' post that I was doing just that, para-phrasing what you said (notice no quotation marks). But I am still of the opinion I captured the essence of what you said. I have no desire to misrepresent what you have said in the past, if you feel I have done so, I apologize in advance.
Sincerely,
James Christian Hill a.k.a. Zazen
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Originally posted by Arlo
I think picking a fight with HT about this may accomplish alot of good here. Ahem (/sarcasm)
I'm not picking a fight with anyone. I think alot of us got the impression the ENY system was being rammed down our throats and we need to learn to like it or lump it. I just want to clear the air here seeing as the ENY system in its current incarnation is obviously ineffective. We all have a right to know what the next step is.
Zazen
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HiTech,
Read your post then mine I have cut and pasted below for you. I could not find my original post about MA country demographics that more comprehensively explains how the three countries have different age/economic (closely related) demographics but you get the idea. It is my contention that if you had just been patient after launching AH2 the numbers would have balanced rather quickly on their own. The transition to AH2 was expensive for alot of people and prohibitively expensive for some, especially alot of those from Bishland and to a lesser extent Knights. Rooks were either already equipped to run AH2 or had the finances to get equipped rather quickly. If you had paid attention to the MA country affiliation of your beta-test participants you would have also predicted this as I did. You seem to grasp the, 'each country has a unique collective personality', concept but are at a loss as to how demographics effects gameplay and balance both in the short and long-term, especially during this recent period of transition. I'll keep digging for my original 'MA demographics' post I think you may find it usefull.
Those you lost in the transition will be back sooner or later (most sooner) and they will affiliate with the country they affiliated with in AHI for the most part, especially if that country is also numerically disadvantaged. Rooks simply got a head-start for economic reasons. You hit the 'panic button' before you even got AHII fully implimented (TOD? that will effect balance too btw, think about it...) and pissed off alot of your formerly impressed, satisifed and content customers on all sides of the fence when you should have just let things be to take their natural course, in my opinion.
Even your little account percentage summary thingy can prove this to you. I quoted it in the above post. You have a snapshot of the accounts and their general country affiliation after the release of AH2, now compare that to your account demographics prior to AHII beta. This will show you what your customer base was and who they affiliated with before those with insufficient funds for the necessary upgrades or new computer realized they would not be able to play AHII. They likely cancelled their accounts either during beta or shortly after AHII went live to avoid paying the $15 dollars/month for a game they could not yet enjoy. My guess is you will find there was parity within the margin of error for all three countries prior to AHII beta. On a similiar note, what you perceived as people quitting because of numbers imbalance near the time of the AHII release was actually people quitting because they lacked the necessary hardware required to run AHII within what they deemed acceptable performance parameters. It's quite possible you may have misjudged the whole entire situation.
Zazen
Have been thinking about this. So far Im thinking it just happens randomly.
I have noticed that all the time I have been in flight sims, Each country eventualy devlops it's own personality.
This isn't to say that every person flying for a country is the same. But wrather more people of one group or like mindes gravitate together just because of humun nature. There is no prediction how this gravitation will end up, or what the personalities of each country will end up to be, just that the personality will form.
I' starting to think in the current situation we ended up with a unique set of countries that for some resone didn't want to balance out like it always has in the past. Still have no idea what common personality trait made it this way.
HiTech
No, actually, dividing is taking the current player base and partitioning it into two groups that will be unlikely to ever come back together again. Those that do not come to AH2 immediately will more than likely 'rejoin' the community once they have surmounted whatever obstacle that prevented them from doing so in the first place. Alot have described their intention to do exactly this on the BBS.
Obviously, there will be a few who will never buy another computer or upgrade?!?! so may never come to AH2, but those people probably have some other more important life issues to attend to anyways and will likely be better off devoting their free-time elsewhere, like getting an education or a job, or perhaps a second job. My contention is that in the final analysis, once those just naturally resistant to change decide to do whatever they require to try AH2, the vast majority in AH1 today will make the transition to AH2. This may take a while, but Aces High in whatever form is simply the best massively multiplayer combat flight simulator there is. Those hooked on this genre will be there, those that are not hooked, well, have fun playing card games online, we'll sure miss ya
Zazen
I forget what I called the thread, but as beta began I predicted Rook numbers would become disproportionately greater than Knights and especially Bishops for reasons of customer demographics. To make a long story short, demographically speaking, Rooks are older people with careers who are better able to afford the necessary hardware required to run AH2. Your average Bishop 16 year-old flipping burgers at McDonald's for minimum wage simply cannot afford a $499 256MB Radeon 9800 XT. Obviously, this demographic distribution is a gross generalization, but accurate overall. As Morpheus noted the numbers support my earlier speculation.
Also, realize each country has numbers at different times of the day. Knights have alot of US West coasters so tend to have superior numbers 10pm to 4am Central. Bishops have alot of European players so tend to have superior numbers 4am to 4pm Central. Rooks have alot of US East Coasters so tend to have numbers 4pm to 10pm. The reason Rooks 'appear' to be advantaged numerically is because their period of superior numbers occurs during prime-time for the most amount of players, therefore more people witness this time period than the other two time periods.
But, look at it from the vantage of statistical significance. A 25 player advantage during prime-time when there's 100 people on each team on average is less impactfull percentage wise than the same 25 player advantage Bishops tend to enjoy during the day when there's 50 people per team on average. Those same 25 people represent a 50% advantage during the day, but only a 25% advantage at night during US prime-time. The same 50% advantage applies to Knights after midnight central. It's much easier for Knights or Bish to counter 125 Rooks when they have 100 people online than it is for Rooks or Knights to counter 75 Bishops when they have only 50 online during the daytime, for example.
Most people are only aware of the numbers situation during their particular play-time window, the numbers are actually more even than they appear subjectively from your particular play-time window if you were to see it from a 24-hour play-cycle perspective.
Zazen
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Originally posted by Dawggus
ROFLMAO ... THAT'S IT, I can't believe you found it!!!
Hmm, Charles is a lot uglier than I remember :).
Cya Up!
BTW, Dawg ... didja notice that whatever he did for 15 minutes a day in the privacy of his own room also made him a championship boxer?
Is this Charles Atlas book still in print? :D
-
Arlo, I think we may have stumbled onto something here! We need to do a little more research on Charles Atlas to find out about this little "15 minute" exercise ;).
Cya Up!
Dawg
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Originally posted by DoKGonZo
Exactly.
And the scary thought which may be crossing some minds is just how much more dangerous Rooks could become if ENY forces them to not only become proficient in other planes, but also increase their level of teamwork because of it.
What's that old saying about the "briar patch?"
-DoK
Dumbest damn thing I've heard in a while and that's saying something with Zazen around. Smoke another one... :lol
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I don't think it is actually about numbers... I think it is about fairness.
Any side with twice as many people as another side is going to roll that side over if all planes are available. Practically by definition, in the MA, this means you have say 200 1945 planes attacking several fields defended by 100 1945 planes. Since plane quality is equal, numbers takes the day.
So I think the goal is to balance out the numbers/technology pendulum so that no side just completely has no chance at all to defend itself.
I think people are losing sight of the fact that this isn't targeted just against the Rooks. OMGWTFSUX0RS!!! HTC hates rooks!!! I quit!! That is the general tone of the complaints I see. This change affects whichever side has the most numbers, be it Bish, Rooks, or Knights.
I'm actually all for a completely unrestricted version of this, with the exception of GVs. If your side has 450 people and you are facing a combined 200 people, you outta be forced to make due with 202s and SBDs to take bases. Granted, that is an extreme example.
The people that fly the P-38 do have a valid concern, in my opinion. I think a earlier version of the P-38 needs to be added or the P-38's ENY bumped up a little, since it is the only version of the plane we have.
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Originally posted by Urchin
The people that fly the P-38 do have a valid concern, in my opinion. I think a earlier version of the P-38 needs to be added or the P-38's ENY bumped up a little, since it is the only version of the plane we have.
Agreed and I'd add perk planes should be available at a higher price.
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Originally posted by DipStick
Dumbest damn thing I've heard in a while and that's saying something with Zazen around. Smoke another one... :lol
Good one DipStick:)
On the same subject as Zazen tho I am trying to
find a quote by HT thats says he is happy with the game as is
and any further development is done.
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Originally posted by DipStick
Dumbest damn thing I've heard in a while and that's saying something with Zazen around. Smoke another one... :lol
Hey, Dip ... mah bruthah! Don't call DoK G dumb. He's one of the immortals. I like him. Alot. Not far enough to swap spit or nuthin'. But he's ok in my book. I just don't see eye to eye with him 100% on this. Maybe 27.42% :D
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Originally posted by Urchin
I think a earlier version of the P-38 needs to be added or the P-38's ENY bumped up a little, since it is the only version of the plane we have.
You and I don't see eye to eye very often at all, Urch ... but ... I think you nailed this one dead to rights. Another simple, elegant fix. WTG. :)
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Originally posted by sax
I am trying to
find a quote by HT thats says he is happy with the game as is
and any further development is done.
Never happen, Sax. Ain't we lucky? :)
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Originally posted by DipStick
Dumbest damn thing I've heard in a while and that's saying something with Zazen around. Smoke another one... :lol
ROFL! Sorry if I'm offending anyone's sensibilities. I have always been of the firm conviction that one ounce of constructive criticism is worth a veritable mountain of obsequious bellybutton kissing. Hey, but that's just me, you guys feel free to pucker-up lil' butter-cups. ;)
Zazen
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Originally posted by Zazen13
ROFL! Sorry if I'm offending anyone's sensibilities. I have always been of the firm conviction that one ounce of constructive criticism is worth a veritable mountain of obsequious bellybutton kissing. Hey, but that's just me, you guys feel free to pucker up. ;)
Zazen
One man's constructiveness is another's woodpile, I reckon.
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Since the psychological profile of each country doesn't seem to be able to be changed, why not change game play?
We have 2 countries that are basically unorganized and one with superior numbers that is highly organized compared to the others.
The horde can be reduced by giving its' members the incentive to fight elsewhere insteading of ganging one or 2 bases at a time.
1. Eliminate capturable bases
2. Widen the front lines.....I would suggest that every adjacent base belong to a different country.
Now the country with numbers may well pork and cap a few bases with their organization, but will leave numerous other bases open to attack by the other 2 countries.
3. No more perk points for resets......maps should be reset every few days by HTC if at all.
Think about it
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I found my original demographic posts I think. I wrote some of this as AHII beta was about mid-stream after observing the major difference in participation from the three different MA country affiliated player groups.
Zazen
**************************************************
I've been playing these games as long as just about anyone, and the axiom 'Birds of a Feather, flock together" is true. While some are more loyal to their chess piece than others. There is a very tightly knit core of Rooks that stuck it out throughout the dark ages, when it was sport for Bishops and Knights to see how quickly they could reset the far numerically inferior Rooks. For those that stayed Rooks, there developed an intense loyalty to country and to one another which parallels any real life military unit subjected to harsh combat conditions.
Now, a year or more after Rooks took their 6 month+ arse beating, they instituted RJO's and a highly organized inter-squadron system of co-operation, the numbers have evened out, and all those galvanized by the fire of getting gang-raped daily are still Rooks for the most part.
Bishops usually have numbers during the morning and daytime US central time, Rooks during prime-time, and Knights late night. The perception that Rooks have huge hordes is likely a result of RJO's, squadron co-ordination in general, especially on Sunday nights, and the fact that Rooks have numbers during prime-time US time when there are far more total people online to feel the impact, observe it, and whine about it.
As far as Rook numbers in AHII is concerned, I have flown for all countries under one name or another. One thing is clear, Rooks have a higher percentage of adults than the other two countries, especially Bishops. The high pitched squeel of Bishop pre-pubescents on vox is proof of this. Most Rooks I know personally in AH or from long years in AWFR are in their 40, 50's and beyond. These people can generally afford the necessary upgrades and probably already have very beefy systems able to easily handle the requirements of AHII. On the other hand the 13 year old'ish demographic of the AH population can probably not afford to upgrade or purchase a beefy, higher-end system capable of playing AH2.
Obviously, I'm generalizing here, but you get the idea. Every country is going to lose a percentage of it's player base to AH2 based on prohibitive hardware requirements, I think Rooks will just be less impacted than the other two countries, so will appear to have greater numbers as they have in beta thus far.
Zazen
**************************************************
I have flown with Bishops, my ears are still ringing from the shrill, pre-pubescent squeels on VOX. As you fairly quoted I am grossly generalizing the demographics, but take it from someone with extensive first-hand knowledge, Bishops have a veritable monopoly on teenie-boppers.
As far as Rooks are concerned, we conducted an informal poll, the average age of a Rook is 46! I am 33 and am one of the younger Rooks!
Zazen
**************************************************
Originally posted by ghostdancer
.
Knits then recovered briefly Jan and February but then numbers started falling off again. Actually it looks like Bishop and Knits number both fell off more than the Rooks did with the conversion to AH2.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yup, exactly as I conjectured would transpire months ago during early beta for reasons of demographics. Rooks simply have the fewest financially precarious 'children' who cannot afford the hardware to make the transition to AH2. Believe this if you want to, if you do not...well that's your prerogative.
Zazen
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Originally posted by Arlo
Hey, Dip ... mah bruthah! Don't call DoK G dumb. He's one of the immortals. I like him. Alot. Not far enough to swap spit or nuthin'. But he's ok in my book. I just don't see eye to eye with him 100% on this. Maybe 27.42% :D
I didn't call Dok dumb, I said what he said was dumb and I stand by it. ;)
I remember Dok from way back. Almost everybody here from the 'old' days. Flew AW for years starting back on AOL, flew WB some and WWIIO. Been playing almost 10 yrs now. I like Dok too but I won't bow at his feet... just saying. :)
PS... I don't care if the Pope posts something I disagree with, I will say so. It's nothing personal really. I even kinda like Zazen in a manly sorta way. :p
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Oh man .. if you argue with the pope in a thread you go to hell, man. Straight to hell!
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Originally posted by Arlo
Oh man .. if you argue with the pope in a thread you go to hell, man. Straight to hell!
I answer to a higher power but thanks for your concern. :lol
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Originally posted by DipStick
I even kinda like Zazen in a manly sorta way. :p
Dipstick, carefull there buddy, liking me in ANY kind of way is likely to be a 'stoning offense' around here really soon. :eek: People here seem to have a great affinity for bellybutton kissing and are acutely allergic to honesty, for the most part. That kind of mentality mixes with my personality about as well as oil and water.
As some of you know in the real world I am a Medical Facility Manager, I have many employees, the one thing that'll get them into the unemployment line faster than a cat can lick its bellybutton is telling me what I want to hear instead of the truth. In the real world, in the business world, if honest opinions and the truth hurts your feelings, makes you angry or gets you all defensive, you need to get the hell out of whatever business you're in before you lose your financial ass.
I want the truth, I want it loud and dirty and I want it now, before it costs me or my company any money. If I even get the tiniest whiff of a hint that I am in the prescence of a brown nosing, obsequious bellybutton kisser (s)he's got a 'pink slip' on his/her desk before he/she gets back from lunch, you simply cannot trust people like that.
I am not treating this thread, this community, HTC, or Hitech personally any differently than I would want to be treated myself in a simliar situation. If that's a problem, well, you guys can pucker-up and kiss my hairy white bellybutton too. ;)
Zazen
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Originally posted by DipStick
I answer to a higher power but thanks for your concern. :lol
Protestantism will get you excommunicated, man. :eek:
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Originally posted by Zazen13
Dipstick carefull there buddy, liking me in ANY kind of way is likely to be a 'stoning offense' around here really soon. :eek: People here seem to have a great affinity for bellybutton kissing and are acutely allergic to honesty for the most part. That kind of mentality mixes with my personality about as well as oil and water.
Zazen
Is this "ass-kissing" thing gonna go on for awhile? Cause, man ... I've seen this show before and there's other threads to amuse me. ;)
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Originally posted by Arlo
Is this "ass-kissing" thing gonna go on for awhile? Cause, man ... I've seen this show before and there's other threads to amuse me. ;)
Arlo, you ducked in while I was still writing, go up and read, it gets better. ;)
Zaz
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Originally posted by DipStick
Dumbest damn thing I've heard in a while and that's saying something with Zazen around. Smoke another one... :lol
Is "dipstick" a descriptive term for your anatomy or for your preferred intimate activities?
-DoK
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Originally posted by Zazen13
Arlo, you ducked in while I was still writing, go up and read, it gets better. ;)
Zaz
Well I know I'm much more impressed now. Thanks for editing. :D
-
Originally posted by Arlo
Well I know I'm much more impressed now. Thanks for editing. :D
I was going to make two seperate posts but decided to condense it into one after I hit save since it all fit under the general theme of, "Kissing Ass". ;)
Zazen
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Well ... no offense but I suppose my own opinion that your opinion is fulla crap and not getting a paycheck for it in return somehow applies to your logic. I'll hafta take your word for it this time around. Maybe next time I'll be a little more soused and it'll make more sense. ;)
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While we're on the subject of "Kissing Ass" I am a curious person and am just dying to know one thing. What exactly do you brown nosers have to gain by getting in line to smooch butt? It's not like HT has a pen and paper and is 'keeping score' like Santa Claus and is going to bestow upon you some gift for valiantly defending his virtue on these boards.
If you really wanted to do HT, HTC, the community and the game a service you would get up off your knees and voice your honest, truthfull opinion as to what you believe is best for the game as a whole, not just for you personally. That kind of information is really usefull to a company, especially a small shop like HTC. Do you guys realize how much money US companies spend on market analysis each year to find out how to improve their products, customer satisfaction and therefore their bottom lines? I'll give you hint, Bill Gates would be collecting soda cans on the sides of highways to feed his family if he had to pay the bill for what corporate America spends. HTC, is getting FREE market analysis from us, well me and a few others, all he's getting from the rest of you is a vigorous ego massage.
Most of us here went through the meat grinder with either Kesmai or WB. We have seen first-hand what small, insulated groups of well-intentioned programmers/designers can do to a product such as this when left to their own devices if they lack and/or ignore valuable customer feedback. I'm not saying HTC will go down that road. But, we as a community can help guarentee HTC does not by offering our valuable input, advice, and yes, even constructive criticism. If HTC/HiTech truly cares for this product he will listen and evaluate this information and act on it in the best interest of the community and his company if and when he sees fit. Without this information HTC/HiTech is shooting in the dark 'hoping' he guesses right. The potential consequence if he guesses wrong? Bankrupty, equity liquidation and asset dispersement to creditors, no more Aces High.
We are dealing with extremely complex issues here. Issues that honestly go far beyond C++ programming and HiTech's area of expertise. These are issues that deal with human nature, psychology, group thinking and dynamics, along with fundamental business principles. If HiTech is a smart man, as I am sure he is, he will be the first to admit he, nor anyone else at HTC is the 'master of all these domains'.
If Kesmai and AW taught me anything from a business point of view, it taught me that not listening to your customers is sheer folly, thinking you as the designer somehow 'knows' better than your 5,000 paying customers how to handle THEIR issues is sheer folly. A little business acumen and some common sense should make this plainly obvious to anyone who has had even the tiniest contact with the business world.
In conclusion, stop kissing ass, roll your sleeves up, get in there and start coming up with ideas to improve this product. Only in that way can we be totally assured it will still be here for us to enjoy tomorrow, next month, next year or ten years from now.
Peace!
Zazen
-
-
I knew it ....
I just knew that this was gonna turn into a novel entitled "How I'm Such A Brave Non-Ass-Kissing Guy Who's Doing A Great Service For The Community While Others Aren't" -by Zazen the Brave Non Ass-Kissing Guy.
Firstly ... my boot.
Secondly ... your ass.
Thirdly ... kiss it and make it better yourself. ;)
-
Originally posted by Arlo
I knew it ....
I just knew that this was gonna turn into a novel entitled "How I'm Such A Brave Non-Ass-Kissing Guy Who's Doing A Great Service For The Community While Others Aren't" -by Zazen the Brave Non Ass-Kissing Guy.
Firstly ... my boot.
Secondly ... your ass.
Thirdly ... kiss it and make it better yourself. ;)
I know I've hit a resonant chord when I get replies like this. When all my detractors can do is one line insults and references to my physical anatomy I have made my point sharp and piercing. ;) Thanks for the affirmation, Arlo.
Zazen
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That or you tell yourself that so you won't have to do a major editing job on the 500+ words of self gratuitous tripe you just posted. Seems more like the whole "ass kissing" thing is some sort of defense mechanism that kicks in when someone tells you you've reached your bull**** limit and you didn't wanna hear that. Could it be you want others to kiss your bellybutton after all and al that "I have x number of employees and if they did that blah blah blah" was a smokescreen?
If you're gonna try to bore me to death, find something more original than that. People "quit" here on a weekly basis spouting that on the way out the door. :lol
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Originally posted by Arlo
[B People "quit" here on a weekly basis spouting that on the way out the door. :lol [/B]
That's exactly my point!!! That is a HUGE warning sign. If people are quitting on a weekly basis saying this on the way out then there is without a doubt already a major problem. What do you think people did as AW and WB's slowly slid down the tubes?!?!?!?
Zazen
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This isn't a popularity contest. This is an ingenuous and conscientious effort to save/preserve a product I truly adore. If my input or anyone elses is not valued by HTC then we are already too late, the slide down the slippery slope AW took and WBs is taking has already passed the point of no return. I cannot believe that we have gone passed that point yet, I won't.
But, noone can save/preserve AH alone, not HiTech, not you, not me, it takes all of us working together in a concerted effort to do what is right. Sometimes what is 'right' is not 'right now', by this I mean sudden, abrupt and profound changes to gameplay fundamentals merely to satisfy short-term aims has the potential to, in one fell swoop, destroy this product. That is why I advocate patience, caution and a wholistic view that takes into account the 'big picture' from a myriad of perspectives and viewpoints.
Zazen
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You missed the quotations. People here "quit" all the time without actually quitting. The sky isn't falling. People like to beech. You like to beech. It's a common thing nowadays, apparently.
I'm from the old school. The one that makes fun of people who beech constantly. If I had a problem with HTC over anything of merit, I'd contact the company and not be a dramaqueen about it on the forums. If I decide to quit ... I'll just go.
As far as the ENY thang goes. I'm the one who suggested the damned thing in the first place. And to be honest, I was only being half serious. I could really care less about hordes OR the ENY restriction. It doesn't effect me either way. But I found it somewhat surprising ... and I have to admit .... amusing ... how much whining that one simple change could cause. There really ain't no pleasing everyone all the time. Go figure.
If you didn't have the memory of a goldfish you'd recall that I suggested multiple times last night to let the MA run for a month without the ENY restriction to see how things work out but you decided that that may be a bad thing. (hehe)
But the part about how I'm supposed to be impressed with your take on the whole "disaster" and how you have the "answer" and how anyone that doesn't agree with you is "kissing ass" somehow is sort of the icing on the cake.
HTC doesn't need your expert hospital management advice or my expert get drunk and laugh at retarded people advice. We're just making noises at each other right now. When it comes down to the pulse of the community ... there's more than you or me or the 2 dozen protesters or 2 dozen supported in the forum to be concerned with.
Sounds more like sour grapes pressed and poured into a bottle to me. :aok
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Originally posted by Arlo
I'm from the old school. The one that makes fun of people who beech constantly. If I had a problem with HTC over anything of merit, I'd contact the company and not be a dramaqueen about it on the forums. If I decide to quit ... I'll just go.
If you didn't have the memory of a goldfish you'd recall that I suggested multiple times last night to let the MA run for a month without the ENY restriction to see how things work out but you decided that that may be a bad thing. (hehe)
But the part about how I'm supposed to be impressed with your take on the whole "disaster" and how you have the "answer" and how anyone that doesn't agree with you is "kissing ass" somehow is sort of the icing on the cake.
HTC doesn't need your expert hospital management advice or my expert get drunk and laugh at retarded people advice. We're just making noises at each other right now. When it comes down to the pulse of the community ... there's more than you or me or the 2 dozen protesters or 2 dozen supported in the forum to be concerned with.
I never said removing the enemy thing was a bad idea. I said removing it for just two weeks likely is not enough time to 'prove' anything, it would probably take much longer to get us back on track toward natural balance now.
I think HTC should want everyone's advice no matter what your chosen career or vocation. Wether or not HTC agrees with the advice or acts on it is obviously totally his prerogative. But, at the very least he's getting information. Information is gold in this day and age.
I also think these forums are EXACTLY the place to bring up issues that effect more than just one other person besides yourself, such as cheating accusations, racial slurs and other general 'behavior issues'. Those should be dealt with privately. However, issues that effect the entire community should be dealt with publicly.
It's really a matter of convenience. What do you think is easier for HTC, reading a thread on a burning topic over a cup of coffee, making a public reply or two, gleening some usefull information in the process and perhaps getting some good ideas? OR Dealing with 3,000 angry emails as long as one of my epic posts or longer and replying (or not) to each one individually?
It was a rhetorical question, I know the answer...;) I think we'd all rather they work on coding fixes, additions, enhancements, TOD, etc. than sift through countless redundant 'disgruntled customer' letters.
Zazen
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Originally posted by Zazen13
I think HTC should want everyone's advice no matter what your chosen career or vocation. Wether or not HTC agrees with the advice or acts on it is obviously totally his prerogative. But, at the very least he's getting information. Information is gold in this day and age.
I also think these forums are EXACTLY the place to bring up issues that effect more than just one other person besides yourself, such as cheating accusations, racial slurs and other general 'behavior issues'. Those should be dealt with privately. However, issues that effect the entire community should be dealt with publicly.
It's really a matter of convenience. What do you think is easier for HTC, reading a thread on a burning topic over a cup of coffee, making a public reply or two, gleening some usefull information in the process and perhaps getting some good ideas? OR Dealing with 3,000 angry emails as long as one of my epic posts or longer and replying (or not) to each one individually?
It was a rhetorical question, I know the answer...;)
Does that mean if I reply that that's how we got the ENY restriction implemented in the first place that you actually expected that reply but you really don't have an answer prepared and would rather not hear that reply? :D
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Originally posted by Arlo
Does that mean if I reply that that's how we got the ENY restriction implemented in the first place that you actually expected that reply but you really don't have an answer prepared and would rather not hear that reply? :D
You lost me again...re-phrase please.
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Don't worry. It was a rhetorical question written before you edited your post. ;)
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Originally posted by Arlo
Don't worry. It was a rhetorical question. ;)
Oh good, it's getting late and my fingertips are numb from typing.:rofl
Zazen
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RE: ass-kissing.. it isn't really all that wise to assume that just because someone is happy with the direction the game is going they are kissing HT's ass.
I like the way the game is going. Forcing people into less-capable rides if they want to horde is a good thing, in my opinion. It leads to more variety in the MA, more even numbers (possibly, they seem fairly even to me most of the time anyway), and I'm sure at least one other thing I can't think of.
Now, there are some "issues" with the new system, however, not being able to fly the La-7 or P-51D aren't, in my opinion. Not being able to fly the P-38, now, that seems to be a valid point. It could be easily remedied by bumping up the ENY a bit on it, or by adding a new earlier war P-38. Every other late-war ride has a slightly less capable (and in most cases very slightly) version available.
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I do not care if people switch sides or simply log-off,
Zazen; This is the total miss qoatation, and hence total miss quote , because it puts a completly different tone on what I have been saying.
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And to answere you question about what we think of other peoples oppions:
People stating there opionion is a good thing. People getting on there hi horse and contiualy posting the same thing over and over begins to cross the line, and ends up being ignored by us, as nothing more than noise.
HiTech
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Originally posted by DoKGonZo
Exactly.
And the scary thought which may be crossing some minds is just how much more dangerous Rooks could become if ENY forces them to not only become proficient in other planes, but also increase their level of teamwork because of it.
It all ready has .......but it still sucks ! Maybe the Rooks need to take a day or two off from the game ? Let the Snivlers that promoted this nonsence have a taste of taking a knife to a gun fight ....... ( day in and day out )maybe over next weekend just simply go to the CT on Friday Night and stay their thru Sunday ....
Think it couldn't happen ? , those that were involved in " Operation Green Map" ( CZ ) in AirWarrior understand stuff like that has happened before .......It is possible for a single country to plan as a country and get the word out to most all and keep it a secrete , and the other 2 countrys didn't see it comming untill it was over ...... Think I'm full of crap ??? ask Flossy, or 40 MAW ....
What's that old saying about the "briar patch?"
-DoK
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Originally posted by hitech
Zazen; This is the total miss qoatation, and hence total miss quote , because it puts a completly different tone on what I have been saying.
This would have a few effects.
1. No one realy wants to wait to fly another fight, wrather than wait some will either change sides, or log off. Either has the effect of balancing the numbers.
Your thoughts?
HiTech
You seemed to indicate that people logging off in disgust was an acceptable way to balance the numbers. An ends' justifies the means" kind of solution.
Zazen
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Originally posted by hitech
And to answere you question about what we think of other peoples oppions:
People stating there opionion is a good thing. People getting on there hi horse and contiualy posting the same thing over and over begins to cross the line, and ends up being ignored by us, as nothing more than noise.
HiTech
Am I being more repititious than the countless redundant emails you are undoubtedly getting stating the same concerns? Those that frequent the boards see a post that articulates what they would have said and do not feel the need to:
A) Re-post the exact same thing or
B) Send HTC long angry emails saying the exact same thing.
The only reason I end up repeating myself in various ways is because of the cadre of fan-boys that enjoy adding nothing to the debate but instead distort and confuse the topic with mindless prattle, circular logic and thinly veiled insults.
Zazen
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Originally posted by Urchin
RE: ass-kissing.. it isn't really all that wise to assume that just because someone is happy with the direction the game is going they are kissing HT's ass.
I like the way the game is going. Forcing people into less-capable rides if they want to horde is a good thing, in my opinion. It leads to more variety in the MA, more even numbers (possibly, they seem fairly even to me most of the time anyway), and I'm sure at least one other thing I can't think of.
Now, there are some "issues" with the new system, however, not being able to fly the La-7 or P-51D aren't, in my opinion. Not being able to fly the P-38, now, that seems to be a valid point. It could be easily remedied by bumping up the ENY a bit on it, or by adding a new earlier war P-38. Every other late-war ride has a slightly less capable (and in most cases very slightly) version available.
I have no trouble distinguishing between people/posts that merely affirm support for the status quo through examples such as yours that aid in furthering the debate and those people/posts that add nothing whatever to the debate but merely serve to berate, ridicule and insult anyone who does not support the status quo and the methods implimented by the 'powers that be' that advocate it.
One type of person/post is a form of fan-boy bellybutton kissing, the other is a stated opinion. One serves to provide usefull information to the community and to HTC, the other does nothing more than attempt to degrade the entire debate into a childish 'pissing contest'. I'll leave it up to you which is which...;)
Zazen
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Zazen called me an bellybutton kisser and Dok doesn't like me no more!
Booo hooo booo hooo.
I think I'll crawl into a corner, shrivel up and die now.....
Naaahhh. ;)
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Originally posted by DipStick
Zazen called me an bellybutton kisser and Dok doesn't like me no more!
Booo hooo booo hooo.
I think I'll crawl into a corner, shrivel up and die now.....
Please do. I'll contribute a pack of matches and a few gallons of gasoline if you need help getting started.
There's a vast difference between genuflecting and maintaining a civil conversation. If you indeed remember me from the days of old, you should know better than to commence hostilities with insults.
-DoK
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Zazen : right now I would put your current post in the pissing match catagory.
HiTech
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There are far too many run on sentences in these posts.
It doesnt make you look smarter.
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The word for the day is:
genuflecting
Genuflect \Gen`u*flect"\, v. i. [imp. & p. p. Genuflected; p. pr. & vb. n. Genuflecting.] [See Genuflection.] To bend the knee, as in worship.
You are my NEW hero Dok. I really should know better. No really... putz.. er.. my hero.... :rolleyes:
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Originally posted by hitech
Zazen : right now I would put your current post in the pissing match catagory.
HiTech
Possibly, I hate that I am forced to stoop to the level of my detractors on occassion. A necessary evil in some isolated situations as a re-buff in kind is the only thing they respect. Sort of like how the only thing a violent man respects is a good, thorough bellybutton kicking. You will never 'talk' him out of his antagonistic, violent ways unfortunately.
Zazen
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Originally posted by MoRphEuS
There are far too many run on sentences in these posts.
It doesnt make you look smarter.
Are you referring to me Morph?!? lol
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Originally posted by DipStick
...
You are my NEW hero Dok. I really should know better. ...
That's more like it.
Your sheep-shagging priveleges are restored. Try not to get any fleece burns.
-DoK
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Originally posted by Zazen13
I have not noticed any improvement in this area in the year+ I have been freelancing in Knightland.
Zazen
Rah Rah Rah TEAM work.........
Some folks here seem to think "team work" is the overriding goal of all players. what has happened is that the countrys have become sorted by goals, with thiese goals being uniquely defined as "The only way" to have fun.
I became a knight upon encountering one of my old AW squads here,
After playing for some time, I began sorting out types of gamers for my own amusment..... amoung them are
the Generals,
the Furballers,
the Party Animals,
the Focused,
the Lone Wolf,
the History Mavens,
the Hormonaly Crazed Teen,
the Strat Guys,
ect. ect. ect.
Of all of thiese "Winning The War with Teamwork" is important to only a few...... most could care less about "The War" and see it only as a background and not as a prime directive.
By and large the Knigts don't really care about the war, and see it as a great way to provide fights, but not important in and of it's self.
The problem with this is, that this attitude allows the Fixated to roll them under while they are having fun, and the fun goes away when a side is reduced to a very few porked bases. The horde-rollers don't care, as winning is every thing to them, and Clubing Baby Seals has been elevated to a great art form.
Gettin back to my premis, by and large the Knights want to have fun, but fun to them is not solely defined by "Winning the War", and telling us Teamwork Teamwork Teamwork, is like us saying "Victory is Unimportant, the play is the thing" to the Rooks. Genrally all you get is a blank look........
what the ENY thing has done, is to level the playing field a little, in effect we shortened your club a bit, you can still horde, and even win, it is just a little harder. And as in every thing, a little harder is important as any thing that is too easy gets stale fast, and leads to burnout in the player base.
So try looking at the increased friction of ENY balancing as something that increases your coheasion and need for Teamwork, thus extending the viability of the Horde mentality, and saving ya'll from the dissolution of burnout and player loss. And not as an infringment of your fun, unless your fun is paramount, and you want Victims instead of Partners in fun.
Gunns
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I think you are mis-interpreting the scope of what teamwork is. I am not speaking of teamwork as merely 'winning the war'. Maps come and go, fields come and go and most of us can get FAR more perks in an hour or two of flying than a reset will award.
Teamwork as it relates to fighting itself is what I am talking about. When on Knights, generally speaking, it is as though you are a hermetically isolated node of fighterdom. There is little in the way of impromptu 'loose deucin', droppage of altitude for six clearing, rope detection. Or, any other co-operative fighter tactic that would indicate to me that my fellow Knights are even paying attention.
Coming from my Rook background I am even amazed after a year at how little Knights communicate in a complex engagement. I am often the only one calling out bandits, telling others on range I have a target roped if they wish to pick him off or calling out check 6's. This is the teamwork I am speaking of. This kind of teamwork has a profound impact on every single fight except a 1 vs. 1's. This kind of teamwork goes a long way in determining the outcome of each and every multi-plane engagement in the MA.
Zazen
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Originally posted by Zazen13
Possibly, I hate that I am forced to stoop to the level of my detractors on occassion. A necessary evil in some isolated situations as a re-buff in kind is the only thing they respect. Sort of like how the only thing a violent man respects is a good, thorough bellybutton kicking. You will never 'talk' him out of his antagonistic, violent ways unfortunately.
Zazen
You're not "forced" to do anything when it comes to posting or replying on internet forums. Unless it's your ego "forcing" you. Or mine, for that matter. Maybe we can fool ourselves about it. It's probably alot easier than fooling others. But when it comes down to it, if a poster doesn't understand you it may not be because the can't. And if you end up "stooping to their level" to "prove" your point then it's just as likely that you don't actually understand the point you're trying to prove all that well, either. If you did, you wouldn't give up so easily. Then again, some of us aren't really trying to prove anything at all. We're just "forcing" others to try.
And I gotta tell ya ... you can't really kick anyone's bellybutton through your monitor. Even "metaphorically" speaking. MrBlack tried that on more than one occasion and failed miserably. ;)
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I find the idea that the Knights don't care about the war and winning it both interesting and amusing.
I find it amusing because at times they are as guilty as anyone about hordes and steamrolling.
I find it interesting in that there may indeed be groups on at times who honestly don't care about the war and just care about even fights. However, I seriously doubt it is restrticted to any one country, despite what supposedly pious devotees might have anyone believe.
There is a big problem with the ENY system helping those just looking for an even fight. It only limits planes and not numbers. A fight against 3/4:1 odds even when the enemy is flying planes with an ENY of 15 or 20 less than you are is still bad odds. And when the "horde" is eventually forced to learn to fly "junk" well, it will still be a terribly lopsided fight. Or they'll just get twice as many to attack. What then? Run the ENY to 60? Invent yet another device to "penalize" or "punish" someone?
I'm still of the position that the ENY system is a "quick fix" or a "band aid" that does not really deal with a core issue that is the problem.
While I am entirely opposed to having anyone be able to "exploit" "features" of the game in order to create Bravo Sierra results and ruin things for others, I am entirely opposed to "features" or "mechanisms" designed to handicap a player who plays one style legitimately in order to make another player who plays another style happy.
Oddly enough, I find myself holding the middle ground. I like a good even fight. I like taking bases. I like massed attacks, whether they are spontaneous or carefully planned. I'm not on any one side here.
The ENY system doesn't often affect me to any real extent most often, I don't fly anything with a lower ENY than the P-38L, and I readily move to the P-47D or the F4U. I'm not much of a pilot anyway.
As it stands now, most of what I see is already LA7's, P-51D's, and Spitfires, along with an all too generous helping of Nikki's. This is not just the case when numbers get out of whack, it's the case all the time. Should the ENY limit pass 40, I'll just call it and log. Should it become the rule rather than the exception, I'll fly a lot less.
The current ENY limit system has more loopholes in it than corporate tax laws. It needs SERIOUS work as far as I'm concerned, I don't know if the mechanisms for what is needed are already in the game or not.
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Originally posted by Arlo
And I gotta tell ya ... you can't really kick anyone's bellybutton through your monitor. Even "metaphorically" speaking. MrBlack tried that on more than one occasion and failed miserably. ;)
Well, I've always referred to this as 'Word Warrior', ever since my days in 'Air Warrior'. In a way you can kick someone's ass. You do it by intellectual debate punctuated by air-tight logic substantiated by proof that cannot be refuted.
It is at this point, the person that just got their bellybutton kicked, attempts to un-kick it. They do this by the coy use of 'subject-deflection', casting the postings into a realm that entails personal slights, insults, derogatory one-liner remarks accompanied by comical pics dredged off the internet and overly judicious use of emoticons.
Zazen
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Originally posted by Zazen13
Coming from my Rook background I am even amazed after a year at how little Knights communicate in a complex engagement. I am often the only one calling out bandits, telling others on range I have a target roped if they wish to pick him off or calling out check 6's. This is the teamwork I am speaking of. This kind of teamwork has a profound impact on every single fight except a 1 vs. 1. This kind of teamwork goes a long way in determining the outcome of each and every multi-plane engagement in the MA.
Zazen
They must not like you Zaz. :) I always have comms going on, lots of ch6s and setups. Maybe you were flying with the wrong crowd.
As far as Knits go, I'd say about 80% or so don't care about 'the war'. We like to fight and we're good at it. I've many times seen 4-5 Knits wipe out 12-15 Bish/Rooks with good comms and teamwork.
That's the fun for me and it's been good lately. Having a blast with more even numbers.
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Originally posted by DipStick
They must not like you Zaz. :) I always have comms going on, lots of ch6s and setups. Maybe you were flying with the wrong crowd.
It has nothing to do with me, I can hear anything on range channel, no one is speaking to each other either. I can't fly worth a crap, but my SA is top notch, very few are employing mutually supportive fighter tactics either. The only exception I see to this is if there's several people in the same squadron involved in the engagement. Also, up until very recently I had not let it be known what handle I was flying with while Knights, so it is not simply a manifestation of the 'anti-Zazen' phenomena. If anything I'm getting more co-operation now that most Knights know Lexus is usually me (or my wife).
Dipstick, I know you have flown Rooks a little, spend a few days there. The communication/co-operation level between fighter pilots in Rookland is head and shoulders above anything Knights or Bishops do, even on their best days. I think that's partly the big attraction to Rooks and why most fighter pilots prefer to stay there. If Bishops and Knights really, one invdividual at a time, worked on this single aspect of AH gameplay there will cease to be a numbers imbalance.
Zazen
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Originally posted by Zazen13
Possibly, I hate that I am forced to stoop to the level of my detractors on occassion. A necessary evil in some isolated situations as a re-buff in kind is the only thing they respect. Sort of like how the only thing a violent man respects is a good, thorough bellybutton kicking. You will never 'talk' him out of his antagonistic, violent ways unfortunately.
Also originally posted by Zazen13
Well, I've always referred to this as 'Word Warrior', ever since my days in 'Air Warrior'. In a way you can kick someone's ass. You do it by intellectual debate punctuated by air-tight logic substantiated by proof that cannot be refuted.
Really now? :D
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Originally posted by Captain Virgil Hilts
I find the idea that the Knights don't care about the war and winning it both interesting and amusing.
I find it amusing because at times they are as guilty as anyone about hordes and steamrolling.
I find it interesting in that there may indeed be groups on at times who honestly don't care about the war and just care about even fights. However, I seriously doubt it is restrticted to any one country, despite what supposedly pious devotees might have anyone believe.
The only time I help steamroll is to prove "we can do it too". On the few occasions the BKs, AOMs, 13th, etc... help in mission thingys we completely lay waste to the countryside gathering many sheep as we go.
I'm sure there are groups in other countries who just like to fight, otherwise it would be very boring for us, no?
to those who live for the battle. Air to air combat in (the best) virtual WWII aircraft to be found.
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Originally posted by DipStick
... gathering many sheep as we go.
That is a VERY important distinction. Sheep gathering is to be honored and respected.
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Originally posted by Zazen13
When on Knights, generally speaking, it is as though you are a hermetically isolated node of fighterdom. There is little in the way of impromptu 'loose deucin', droppage of altitude for six clearing, rope detection. Or, any other co-operative fighter tactic that would indicate to me that my fellow Knights are even paying attention.
Zazen
They probably recognized your shades account.
ack-ack
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Originally posted by Ack-Ack
They probably recognized your shades account.
ack-ack
It's not a 'shades' account, I let it be well-known I am Lexus. Sometimes it is my wife though.
Zazen
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Originally posted by DipStick
As far as Knits go, I'd say about 80% or so don't care about 'the war'. We like to fight and we're good at it. I've many times seen 4-5 Knits wipe out 12-15 Bish/Rooks with good comms and teamwork.
Yep. Just the other night, Pellik and I held off the Bish hordes at A42 for a couple of hours until they finally managed to overwhelm us and sneak the base capture. And last night the Bishops tried again for A42 and only a handful of defenders held them off while being at a 3-1 disadvantage. Great teamwork on the part of the Knight defenders.
ack-ack
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Well .. the part where sometimes you're your wife was well known, at least. ;)
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Originally posted by Arlo
Well .. the part where sometimes you're your wife was well known, at least. ;)
You're lucky I have a sense of humor! :aok
Zazen
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Originally posted by Zazen13
You're lucky I have a sense of humor! :aok
Zazen
I wasn't sure you did. And I'm not sure about why I'm lucky because of it yet I'm kinda glad you do. :D
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Oh Lord Dawg, What did you start!!
Somebody photoshop that charles atlas and put a big bulldog face on it for BFD heheheheheeeee
Im not sure about the original theory that started this post, but it was interesting.
OK.. back to the peeing contest ;)
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How did this digress from Dawggus's original request to a rehash of questioning Hitech's decision on controlling unbalanced sides?
1.) I would like to hear answers to Dawggus's question.
2.) I would rather hear from Hitech if he is so inclined concerning his decision and how he beleives using ENY for controlling sides is working so far. His brevity is refreshing.
I'm one of those 40-50 year olds that plays this game to have fun, not write doctoral dissertations about why the fun is no fun anymore for the having of fun.<----Mojo-joe-joe
Zazen, it's funny you chose that CPID. What is the sound of one AM6 flying?????
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Originally posted by Grimm
Oh Lord Dawg, What did you start!!
Somebody photoshop that charles atlas and put a big bulldog face on it for BFD heheheheheeeee
Im not sure about the original theory that started this post, but it was interesting.
OK.. back to the peeing contest ;)
Hehe, geez Grimm, I almost forgot my original question :). Ewe, my head really hurts from all this discussion though, too much to thunk about ;). That middle section kinda reminded me of a hot-and-heavy tennis match between Zaz and Arlo, WOW, those volleys were coming fast and furious! Ya can't help but love those two guys, they really lay it on the line :).
Cya Up!
Dawg
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Originally posted by Dawggus
That middle section kinda reminded me of a hot-and-heavy tennis match between Zaz and Arlo, WOW, those volleys were coming fast and furious! Ya can't help but love those two guys, they really lay it on the line :).
Cya Up!
Dawg
I've been waiting for Arlo to break out with the .gifs and deal the death blow.
ack-ack
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Originally posted by bustr
Zazen, it's funny you chose that CPID. What is the sound of one AM6 flying?????
I chose this CPID because one of my hobbies is the study of oriental philosophy. I am a Christian by birth but practice a form of Buddhism known as Zen. Zen Buddhism is a form of Buddhism that has no written dogma per se, but is based almost entirely on meditative practice (I'm simplifying for the layperson's benefit).
Zazen, is actually a Japanese word that, literally translated, means 'to sit', as in sitting in meditative contemplation. This was especially applicable to me when I started AW back in 1992 as I was disabled as a result of a tragic accident and confined to a wheel chair much like Whels is now. Seven years, three major surgeries, and 3 years of physical therapy later I have regained practically full use of my lower extremities again. But, I still practice Zen to this day, it is an integral part of my life.
Zazen
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Then destroy your zen and fly without flying. My AM6 goes MU.:)
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Originally posted by bustr
Then destroy your zen and fly without flying. My AM6 goes MU.:)
It's not 'my' Zen, that implies I somehow control, own, or possess it. A fundamental principle of Buddhism is non-attachment. Zen is Zen. "I" am whatever "I" am experiening one moment to the next, nothing more.
Zazen:aok
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Originally posted by bustr
Zazen, it's funny you chose that CPID.
AW = CPID
AH = GameID
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Originally posted by Grimm
AW = CPID
AH = GameID
Yea, well, you never outgrow your roots. I didn't even think about it, just habit. I think the person I was replying to used CPID as well.
Zazen