Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Bodhi on September 06, 2004, 05:58:18 PM
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http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/europe/09/06/russia.school/index.html
wonder what the fall out in Chechnya is going to be over this.
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This is going to get ugly.
"Of course I pitied the children, I swear to Allah. I have children myself. I didn't shoot. I swear to Allah," he said. "I don't want to die. I swear to Allah, I want to live."
yea you should have thaught about that before going into the school.
Other politicians directed their criticism at Putin himself.
"The official claim that international terrorism is behind the Beslan tragedy is a trick designed to divert responsibility away from the Kremlin," liberal Boris Nemtsov told Reuters.
Vladimir Ryzhkov, an independent member of the Duma, wrote in the Nezavisimaya daily: "(Putin) won the contract (as president) to restore order in the country, to ensure security for people. We see today that the contract has been violated."
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sounds like the libralspeak we have here in America.
"If I see a Chechen or an Ingush, I will kill him, or his mother, or his son," Reuters quoted one young man as saying. The man, who declined to be named, was searching for a sister who was missing following the siege.
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"If I see a Chechen or an Ingush, I will kill him, or his mother, or his son," Reuters quoted one young man as saying. The man, who declined to be named, was searching for a sister who was missing following the siege.
Justified
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Yes really.
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Originally posted by Coolridr
Justified
Just causes more anger and grief.
Revenging to the innocent just because they're of same culture as the evil doers is never going to work.
They'll who survive do the same. a paradoxal situation which becomes hard to end once it begins to roll.
Revenging to an innocent is nothing but a momentual relief.
What would make you feel better about it? you will become an equal murderer.
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Originally posted by Bodhi
http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/europe/09/06/russia.school/index.html
wonder what the fall out in Chechnya is going to be over this.
Do you believe his statements?
Alltogether it's very convenient that he directly implicates the main Chechen leaders in the attacks, isnt it?
(http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/40038000/jpg/_40038676_arrest_203.jpg)
Keeping in mind that other thread what do you make of ths picture?
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Oh come now. You girly-men types have empathy dont you? Imagine it was your 4 year old daughter inside that school...
You gonna go call the UN and recommend a meeting to discuss the spreading of love?
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Originally posted by Saurdaukar
Oh come now. You girly-men types have empathy dont you? Imagine it was your 4 year old daughter inside that school...
You gonna go call the UN and recommend a meeting to discuss the spreading of love?
What would I win by killing an innocent person from the land where the killers of my 4 year old daugher came from?
Perhaps this innocent person's family would in turn kill my neightbours 6 year old son.
Why not to pursue the ones guilty of it instead.
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Off topic
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Originally posted by Fishu
What would I win by killing an innocent person from the land where the killers of my 4 year old daugher came from?
Perhaps this innocent person's family would in turn kill my neightbours 6 year old son.
Why not to pursue the ones guilty of it instead.
Good point, but while you were deliberating, an innocent muslim extremeist from Chechnya killed your neighbors 6 year old son anyway.
PS: Any thread where Thrawn shows up to champion the virtues of restraint is going to be fun. :aok
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Originally posted by Fishu
Just causes more anger and grief.
Revenging to the innocent just because they're of same culture as the evil doers is never going to work.
They'll who survive do the same. a paradoxal situation which becomes hard to end once it begins to roll.
Revenging to an innocent is nothing but a momentual relief.
What would make you feel better about it? you will become an equal murderer.
Go pick up the pieces of the Childern and put them in boxes first...
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Originally posted by Saurdaukar
PS: Any thread where Thrawn shows up to champion the virtues of restraint is going to be fun. :aok
Whoa, I wouldn't go that far.
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I've actually been thinking about this all day.
some....probably most...russians want revenge. Some have been infected with liberal EU mentality that these people are freedom fighters and NOW they deserve to be listened to......plus its all putins fault. (sound familure?)
anyhow, what's wrong with them responding in kind? Is it worse or better than apeasing these guys?
I can't think of one thing in this world that would justify taking a school hostage and killing a bunch of children.
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Really sad how this all worked out. Russia really doesn't seem to have much luck with these hostage scenarios... Not saying we'd do any better.
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Originally posted by Vudak
Really sad how this all worked out. Russia really doesn't seem to have much luck with these hostage scenarios... Not saying we'd do any better.
well considering this one was an "accident" IE they didnt want to go in when they did.
I agree with the "take them down" attitude they've shown in the past. It's hard to imagine a russian society as "pu$$ies but they are being infected by a European attitude of apeasment.
God forbid its my kid(s) in there but I would hope govts. "take them down" each and every time. Eventually the act of hijacking something will seam futile when somone stops trying to apease them.
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I just watched an interview on Fox with a counter-terrorism expert.
He was saying that the terrorists may change tactics and just start killing hostages almost right away rather than make demands and wait. Local police are not trained to deal with stuff like this, and bringing in the feds takes time.
The terrorists main goal is to kill, not to bargin. I won't be suprised to see schools hit again.
The Russians did the best they could and had no other choice than to storm that school when people started to die inside.
Makes me sick to think people exist just to hate and kill.
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Originally posted by Gunslinger
some....probably most...russians want revenge. Some have been infected with liberal EU mentality that these people are freedom fighters and NOW they deserve to be listened to......plus its all putins fault. (sound familure?)
anyhow, what's wrong with them responding in kind? Is it worse or better than apeasing these guys?
Well, I'm sure that some of the Chechens wanted revenge for Grozny. So does that make it okay that killed a bunch of innocent Russians? Of course not, and it wouldn't make it okay if the Russians repsonded with arbitrary violence against innocents. I'm surprised that you don't seem to understand that killing civilians is bad.
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the question was is it worse than apeasing......Not is it justified.
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Ah. It doesn't have to be either/or.
It's not like there isn't any middle ground between capitulating to the terrorists, and killing a bunch more Chechen kids.
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Originally posted by Thrawn
Ah. It doesn't have to be either/or.
It's not like there isn't any middle ground between capitulating to the terrorists, and killing a bunch more Chechen kids.
you are completly missing the point....and I'm suspecting on purpose or you're not that smart.
I'm not trying to justify killing a bunch of chechen kids.....remember chechens have allready done that to the russians.
I asking what is worse......apeasment or revenge?
Let me explain this to you so you dont miss it:
by apeasing a terrorist's demands you invite more terrorists....more demands. All of a sudden the Arab world realizes that captrue schools full of thousands of none arab children grabs the attention of non arab cultures.
Now....on the flipside by committing the same attrocities they become no better than the arabs in the first place BUT it may prevent future attacks if it is calculated enough.
the reason I ask this is because there is no middle ground. Once you give in it opens the flood gates.
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I understand, and I'm saying luckily we don't live in a binary world that you are trying to present, so your question is moot.
Which is worse killing twin daughter number one, or twin daughter number two?
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Originally posted by Thrawn
I understand, and I'm saying luckily we don't live in a binary world that you are trying to present, so your question is moot.
Which is worse killing twin daughter number one, or twin daughter number two?
nope wrong again.
you are saying find a middle ground with terrorists.
I am saying there is no middle ground with terrorists.
I'm pretty sure I'm right for the sake of argument.
If you apease terrorisim it means it works and invites more of it.
If you do the same things as them with no agenda (IE you're not asking for release of prisoners) you are no better than them.
Yet you say we dont live in a binary world bla bla bla........yes we do. If you apease terrorism in any ways they win. If you resort to their level they win.
what happens when arabs take over cottonwood elementary in Omaha Nebraska and demand all US troops out of Iraq.
Today.....it doesnt sound so unlikely
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Originally posted by Gunslinger
nope wrong again.
you are saying find a middle ground with terrorists.
No, I'm not. I'm saying, "It's not like there isn't any middle ground between capitulating to the terrorists, and killing a bunch more Chechen kids.".
What the hell makes you think that not killing civilians has anything to do with finding a middle ground with terrorists. The only way that is possible is if you assume that all civilians are also terrorists. Which is patently rediculous.
I'm saying that persecuting a war against terrorists and trying not to kill civilians aren't mutually exclusive.
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It's late, I've had my share, but provide one instance where a terrorist hasn't been a muslim. I have no problem with anyone having their own religious belief, and I'm certain that not all Muslims are of the fanatical breed, but the percentages speak for themselves. I, personaly, am sick of this ****. It's time to quit *****footin around and just take out the 50 million, or whatever the number is. The world won't miss em. Unfortunately, it will take more than the US Armed forces to do it, someone needs to get the other 100,00.
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To be honest, Muslim religion delcares that those who are not of Muslim faith are non-believers or 'infidels'.
Yep...we're all in trouble.
Sure there are peaceful Muslims, but what about the non-peaceful ones?
What I think is going to happen is that one side is going to suffer dramatic losses.
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Originally posted by Lazerus
but provide one instance where a terrorist hasn't been a muslim.
...just one? :confused:
Oklahoma City bombing.
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Originally posted by Thrawn
...just one? :confused:
Try post 9-11.
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Islamic extrmists did not invent terrorism, nor are they the opnly practicioners. Terrorism is a tactic and not a cause.
That said, the current war on "terrorism" is clearly a war on extremist islamic terroirists because they attacked us on 911. We just cant call it that out of political sensitivity. If yoiu doubt that please point me to the US attacks on the IRA or the Basques or any non narcotics reklated attacks on FARC...
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Originally posted by Gunslinger
well considering this one was an "accident" IE they didnt want to go in when they did.
I agree with the "take them down" attitude they've shown in the past. It's hard to imagine a russian society as "pu$$ies but they are being infected by a European attitude of apeasment.
God forbid its my kid(s) in there but I would hope govts. "take them down" each and every time. Eventually the act of hijacking something will seam futile when somone stops trying to apease them.
Using this logic, the Beslan horror shouldn't have happened in the first place since Putin was elected 4 years ago partly for his hard line on Chechnya. He hasn't tried to appease anyone yet this happened. Thats why the people who elected him now blame him because he said he'd solve the Chechen problem, he suggested it was within his power to do so. But he hasn't. Nothing even remotely liberal about that, he's just failed to deliver his side of the contract. Democracy in action, what a wonderful thing.
You’ll have to explain to me how killing someone who WANTS to die and become a martyr is a deterrent, and stops others who share the same belief doing a similar kind of thing in 6 months. Because that's what we all want right?, to eventually stop this kind of thing happening ever again, wherever in the world.
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Originally posted by Chortle
Using this logic, the Beslan horror shouldn't have happened in the first place since Putin was elected 4 years ago partly for his hard line on Chechnya. He hasn't tried to appease anyone yet this happened. Thats why the people who elected him now blame him because he said he'd solve the Chechen problem, he suggested it was within his power to do so. But he hasn't. Nothing even remotely liberal about that, he's just failed to deliver his side of the contract. Democracy in action, what a wonderful thing.
You’ll have to explain to me how killing someone who WANTS to die and become a martyr is a deterrent, and stops others who share the same belief doing a similar kind of thing in 6 months. Because that's what we all want right?, to eventually stop this kind of thing happening ever again, wherever in the world.
I dont see it that way. You can take a hard line on this and still have it happen.
Read some of the articles in othre threads about this and his political oponents going after him. Its sickening.
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Originally posted by Lazerus
It's late, I've had my share, but provide one instance where a terrorist hasn't been a muslim.
Terrorists in southern america.
But surprisingly that doesnt matter to us westerns what they do in S.America.
Another good place is some parts of Africa.
Not like we much give a crap what happens there either, it isn't terrorizing our land.
Ireland is a rather good example... its a country with western culture.
There are examples if you bother to open your mind and not view it all narrowly.
Hortlund,
What does post 9/11 have to do with examples of non-muslim terrorists?
It's not like terrorists suddenly appeared or became muslims after the 9/11.
Besides it's hardly 4 years ago! in the history that is like yesterday!
What amuses me is how some americans thinks Bush has made their country more safer than someone else, *SINCE* there hasn't been any terrorist attacks on american soil since 9/11.
But if looks in the past, the terrorists do not strike every year or every second year.
They have the patience to wait when it's about big targets.
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"Try post 9-11."
Just one? :confused:
"July 07, 2004 in Colombo - Five policemen killed when a suspected LTTE women human bomb exploded - Five police officers are reported to be dead at the bomb explosion occurred at noon today inside the Colpetty police station. One police officer dead, has been identified as E.M. Ekanayake – Inspector of Police. Director of the Colombo Accident Ward Dr. Anil Jasinghe said that eleven injured (three were critically injured) people are undergoing treatment at the Colombo National Hospital."
http://www.asiantribune.com/show_news.php?id=10274
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Originally posted by Bodhi
http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/europe/09/06/russia.school/index.html
wonder what the fall out in Chechnya is going to be over this.
Haven't they been at war for about 10 years or so?
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Haven't they been at war for about 10 years or so?
Not really, it's sort of been an arm punching contest. Just this time Chechnya swung for the nuts instead of the arm.
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Originally posted by lasersailor184
Not really, it's sort of been an arm punching contest. Just this time Chechnya swung for the nuts instead of the arm.
I wonder if you'd still hold the same viewpoint if we'd of seen pictures of innocent civillians blasted to bits by artillery and bombs.
BTW, the gloves came off a while ago in this war. What I don't get is the plain stupidity of fanatics. It never helps their side when they target innocent civillians, especially when targeting obvious noncombatants such as babies, chiildren and the elderly. This type of warfare/terrorism only leads to counter attacks as each side feels justified in taking out the innopcent from the other side. No one wins that type of war.
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Do you believe his statements?
Alltogether it's very convenient that he directly implicates the main Chechen leaders in the attacks, isnt it?
(http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/40038000/jpg/_40038676_arrest_203.jpg)
Keeping in mind that other thread what do you make of ths picture?
My thoughts exactly. Although it wouldn't be a first if the people will take it.
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Originally posted by SaburoS
I wonder if you'd still hold the same viewpoint if we'd of seen pictures of innocent civillians blasted to bits by artillery and bombs.
BTW, the gloves came off a while ago in this war. What I don't get is the plain stupidity of fanatics. It never helps their side when they target innocent civillians, especially when targeting obvious noncombatants such as babies, chiildren and the elderly. This type of warfare/terrorism only leads to counter attacks as each side feels justified in taking out the innopcent from the other side. No one wins that type of war.
I suppose the Chechen's already believe the actions of the Russian army during the two chechen wars justify in turn their own actions. The increasing move away from the nationalist to the religious motivation only further strengthens their resolve to commit such actions.
Tronsky