Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Guppy35 on September 06, 2004, 11:20:30 PM
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From all the whining about this ENY stuff it seems clear that the real solution is the 1945 arena.
Nothing but LA7s, P51Ds for the 339th guys who seem to have the most ENY whines, 262s, Spit 14s, Tempests, TA152s, D9s etc
In this arena you'd perk the non uber rides.
If you want a Spit V, you've gotta get your perks in a Spit XIV
If you want a 109G2, you'd better get your 262 kills in first.
If you want a P40, you'd better get your kills in a 51D first. No chance on a B model Mustang either unless you can do your stuff in a 51D
That and put the bases really far away so folks could climb really high so they can dive reallly fast.
Any turning under 300 MPH would also be perked. Automatic blowing up if you try to turn slow.
Think of the fun!
Of course we'd have to put up with all the whines of the Spit V and P40 pilots.
So? Think it will work?
Dan/Slack
Who hasn't figured out what all the fuss is really about yet. I've always been a bit slow though
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Do that and they'll be asking a a 1946 one, Tiff.
But seriously .... sure ... I bet HT could add a couple of arenas (at some expense and effort) that would, in the long run, pay for themselves and then some.
And I'm not evene talking about the Spanish Civ...
Wait a second!
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lol!!!
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You got my vote Guppy :aok
Also, give them a special forum to whine on so this one stays clear.
Bozon
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Judging by the huge number of complaints I'm seeing, I think I'll continue to "sit out". Ive logged on a few times just to check things and I sure didn't like what I saw. I won't wait forever though.
The only people who don't seem to mind are those who don't seem to favor a particular ride, or one affected by the limiter.
J_A_B
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the description sounds exactly like the MA ..
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Originally posted by J_A_B
The only people who don't seem to mind are those who don't seem to favor a particular ride, or one affected by the limiter.
J_A_B
This is true. I fly a little bit of everything. However, the P-51B is almost always available and I prefer it to the P-51D for fighter work.
My regards,
Widewing
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Originally posted by J_A_B
Judging by the huge number of complaints I'm seeing, I think I'll continue to "sit out". Ive logged on a few times just to check things and I sure didn't like what I saw. I won't wait forever though.
The only people who don't seem to mind are those who don't seem to favor a particular ride, or one affected by the limiter.
J_A_B
THIS is EXACTLY why I have felt from the very beginning that the ENY limit system was a HORRIBLE idea, because it PUNISHES people and discourages them from playing.
NEVER punish a paying customer by taking something from him. Offer a reward or incentive or something to another customer to make them happy. But NEVER punish a customer by taking something away from him that you allow another customer to continue to have and enjoy. Never FORCE a customer to do something he does not want to do, like make a choice he would not ordinarily have to make.
This does not mean you should allow anyone to "cheat" or "exploit" a feature to artificially affect the game, such as griefing.
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Originally posted by Captain Virgil Hilts
Offer a reward or incentive or something to another customer to make them happy.
They did this. People ignored it and the problem got worse.
What is the solution?
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Perk points punishes new customers for being new. It might discourage them from becoming old customers.
C'mon Hilts! We've known each other for virtual eons. The whole persecution thing I'm seeing here because people are just being too bull-headed stubborn to work within the new addition to the system (a new addition that was designed to get some players to stop being so set in their bull-headed rationalization that they have "valid" excuses not to switch and even things up in the resetopia arena) is just plain silly.
Sorry ... but that's how it all comes across. Silly, stubborn, selfish and lazy.
I don't buy the excuses I'm hearing. But then again, if that's what the world's turned into ... I guess it'll come down to the squeeky wheel factor. And hell, it ain't up to me, anyhow.
But man .... I swear .... it all sounds like one big fat estrogen-filled donut being rolled down titty-baby hill.
:rolleyes: ;)
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The perk system does not punish new people for being new, that's a straw man and you know it as well as I. They can EARN perk points, no one can EARN their way around the ENY system. New players don't have perks taken away, they never had them to begin with. But they ARE given the opportunity to EARN them.
The first problem we have here is the multitude of likely false assumptions about the reasons why Rooks don't want to switch.
First we have the assumption that Rooks are Rooks because they get more and easier resets and more perk points. So, what IS the average reset rate among counties, and IS there a great disparity? Also, you get 75 lousy perks for a reset, and if you get a reset with hordes, you earn very few perk points along the way.
Second, we have the assumption that Rooks are Rooks because hordes make kills easy. Really? If the odds are 2:1 or greater in favor of Rooks, then most of the Rooks aren't getting most of the kills. Just like the real war, a relativelysmall percentage get a relatively large percentage of the kills.
Third, we have the assumption that as a rule, Rooks generally suck, and are no talent gang bangers. So the only way they get ANY kills is by vastly superior odds. But there are really good pilots on all three sides, and once again, refer to assumption 2 above, and note that a relatively small percentage of of players get a relatively large percentage of the kills.
These three assupmtions cover the general multitude of assumptions about the Rooks and their supposed massive overwhelming numerical superiority.
These three assumptions may be and probably are true in some cases for some people who are Rooks. Such people are transients, and will wander about seeking such things from side to side, and from game to game. They are NOT part of the CORE player group nor are they part of the CORE customer base.
Now, lets look at why those assumptions make Rooks reluctant to go anywhere else.
Just read the assumptions. If you were a Rook, would you want to fly with people who assumed this about you, and stated it loudly, plainly, and constantly?
This is not just a set of assumptions that are heard and felt here on the BBS, but also in the game as well.
All over this board, and I can very easily quote posts, name posters, and link to threads, but I won't, you can read _____:"3 or 4 of my ____ (insert name of country, Bishops or Knights) can easily thrash any 10 or 12 Rooks at any time, they all suck". Heard constantly in the MA as well.
No matter how good the guy (and his buddies) is (are), he goes to the top of two lists for me:
1. People I ignore completely.
2. People I REFUSE to fly with.
Now, perhaps the above situation leads Rooks to make a possibly false assumption about the Knights and Bishops.
So, there is a possibility, and indeed an actual likelyhood of false assumptions on all sides.
Interestingly enough, since we know there was a time when Knights AND Bishops easily outnumbered and overpowered Rooks on a VERY regular basis, there has been a time of transition. There is an assumption here that is also likely false. That assumption is that the MAJOR factor behind the ascension of the Rooks is the fact that squads from Knights and Bishops switched to Rooks.
However, if that were actually true, then there would be no reason why they would not switch back and that would be enough to even the odds considerably. This has NOT happened. WHY? Is the assumption that those squads now have it easy, and do not want to switch back? That does not work, because they had it easy when the Bishops and Knights had numerical superiority, but they switched to Rooks anyway. So, we have another false assumption, OR, we have a serious decline in the so called "quality of the players". Which is it?
The next problem is why this has happened and what can or should be done about it.
This is a difficult problem, and cannot be resolved by any mechanism like the ENY limiter alone. It is a problem with PEOPLE. It is a problem with the COMMUNITY.
That means the first thing that must be done is to throw out ALL of the assumptions about the people and the community which cannot be proven true, and those which can be proven false.
Now, as a mechanism to drive players to switch sides, I don't see where the ENY limit system has been any sort of success. It has somewhat levelled the numbers in SOME cases.
The SOLUTION?
Well, there is the MAIN problem, we have people looking to HTC (or anywhere else but within their own ranks) to provide a solution, rather than people within the community working to create their own solution. The problem is that if the Knights and Bishops are short of players actively playing, or even actually subscribed, ONLY the Knights and Bishops can actually provide effective permanent solutions to that problem. The deep rift that apparently exists between the Rooks and the other two countries prevents any real hope of any large side switching. The only things that can be done is recruiting new players agressively, and encouraging inactive players to become active. That has to be done from within the Knights and Bishops. "We're from HTC and we're here to help" ain't gonna create a long term effective solution. Change comes from within.
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That was kinda my point Arlo. Fly something else, there are lots of planes.
If you listen to all the whining, then you might as well eliminate the majority of the aircraft and create secret weapons of the Luftwaffe.
Give everyone the latest and greatest and forget the rest.
It's been discussed before, but it seems to me that when the game focused on "winning the war", any notion of air combat or strategic bombing, went out the window.
Now its the hamster wheel to kill bases fast, capture them and the 'glory' comes from winning the reset.
Who cares! The war starts right back up.
Why not eliminate the reset. Make certain bases undestroyable/capturable.
Create strat targets for the bomber point mongers. You want to limit fuel? Launch a raid to the oil refinaries deep in enemy territory.
You want to limit certain planes. Go deep to hit the aircraft factories.
The history minded " have to fly a 51D" guys can escort those bombers on those long range missions and fight off the 262s, D9s and Ta152s and prove what great pony drivers they are.
I wonder how long the LA7 guys would stay in them if the airwar moved upwards on those long range runs
Give the Mossie fanatics a reason to run raids deep into bad guy land. Maybe the AR234 guys do the same.
You'd still have bases capturable so the tank drivers and attack aircraft folks can ebb and flow back and forth, but it just might help do away with the Mob vs a few that seems to appear on the map all the time and maybe even out the fights and give guys a reason to learn better ACM
The point/perk mongers will always find a way to earn them if that is all that drives them, but until the "win the reset' bit goes away, you can bet the whining will continue.
Dan/Slack
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Dan, I disagree. I really don't think the "win the war/reset" thing is what is wrong. It may well be PART of the problem, but it isn't the whole problem.
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Originally posted by Captain Virgil Hilts
The perk system does not punish new people for being new, that's a straw man and you know it as well as I. They can EARN perk points, no one can EARN their way around the ENY system. New players don't have perks taken away, they never had them to begin with. But they ARE given the opportunity to EARN them.
IF that was a "straw man argument" then the statement above hardly counters it. It's not like the rationalization "there's nothing I can do but fly a rickity old early war plane or log off" is really a true statement.
The game didn't start out with perked planes. It was added to address a perceived problem. The problem being that players in the MA never flew anything but the best of the late war planes. Kind of understandable, with no restrictions in place. Why take a knife to a gunfight? Of course, now players do a little perk earning in perk magnet planes and if they're good (or very careful) they can still do it. But it takes effort, some skill (or some timidity) and time.
You can instantly "earn" ENY restricted planes back and you know that. It's easier than earning perks, aamof. It's just not automatic. But again, players gotta choose what they want most. Do they want to fly unrestricted or do they want to fly with a numerical advantage? Players hands aren't tied. They just can't have their cake and eat it to when it comes to numerical superiority in the resetopia/perk arena now.
And i'm not making the assumptions .. or the excuses. Fanatically stubborn "won't change if it kills me" players are. And that's fine. If they don't want to change sides ... don't. The ENY restriction is actually two-sided anyhow.
Players that wish to believe that if they refuse to switch they'll prove the system doesn't work are completely ignoring the fact that it still accomplishes some parity by at least reducing the horde to having to fly early model planes. YES, the "war" can still be "won" doing that. And why shouldn't it? You and I know that a horde of vulching Spit 1s isn't all that much different than a horde or Tempests other than it takes more ammo and if they happen to auger while vulching it'll take a little longer to get back to the vulchfest. So if any of the "sovereign chesspiece nations" have numerical superiority and decide to stay cohesive and take advantage of that, they still can .... but they pay the piper a little now for such indiscretion.
The whole "I want my cake and eat it too because I paid for it" attitude is a bit too "Little Lord Fauntleroyish" for my tastes.
BUT ... I'll say this ... I sure hope HT either raises the ENY of the dirty ape or adds an earlier one for your sake because I know how directly this affects your personal likes. And I'm sincerely sorry for your predicament in that regard.
I'll even go so far as to not be broken up over HT getting rid of the ENY restriction.
But I just don't understand the sack cloth and ashes and threats to quit over something that's not as much a disaster as some would make it out to be.
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lol Tiff.
The only thing bigger than the Rook odds currently is their persecution complex.
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Arlo, it ain't about my personal likes. I'm not terribly broken up over the P-38 being disabled. I'm not happy about it, but it isn't the end of the world. I LIKE the P-47, AND the F4U. Don't worry about me, I'm not in any predicament.
But I don't like ANYONE being restricted from something they like with regards to normally available planes and vehicles. And I don't like anyone being forced to choose between flying what they want or flying where they want. The ENY system IS duress, any way you turn it. It does FORCE people, one way or another.
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Arlo--
I usually respect you, but in this case you seem to be under the misguided notion that everyone should be perfectly happy in any paticular ride in AH, and that if someone ISN'T happy in a different ride then he must be selfish or stupid or "bull-headed" or something.
That simply isn't true, at least not for me. We don't all play AH for the same reasons. I dont pick my choice ride for any reasons except my own and if I'm not in it....then chances are I'm not having much fun. Yes I can make do with flying a 109F and get just as many kills if not more than I can in my choice ride....but what's the point if, for me, instead of a fun time it's just an empty pointless un-fun experience?
Fun is subjective and what you may find fun, others may not.
I've watched the numbers during the last month and I've noticed more than anything that playing the game as I like to has turned into a job. Side switching, while an option, is annoying. It's also unreliable since there's been a number of times that numbers changed so fast that the side switch limiter kicks in. Believe me, this is a severe issue the way I play (one or two flights, then one or two more a couple hours later). Plus even if I get the side whith my choice ride available, the thought of flying against people who are limited to inferior equipment just turns me off even more. Hence I just haven't flown....log on, check #'s...then log off.
Maybe I could get a "free pass" to always have my particular favorite ride available at the expense of having all other aircraft disabled. That'd be fine with me :)
I don't begrudge HTC for making the choices they have (it's their product and all), but I'm well aware that my style of play might be permanently at odds with their new vision....if it indeed turns out that way, then I leave. nothing I can do about it, so I took a wait-and-see attitude rather than rushing to judgement. HTC is going to do what is best for them so...if my play style has become a casualty of improvement, so be it--I'll move on. Wouldn't be the first time (I recall leaving WB's when they modified my play style out of existance over there).
Maybe I'll get back into FPS or something. I hear people still play CS.
J_A_B
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What I keep noticing is that people refuse to look for the root causes, and continue to ignore the real problem. So long as someone is being FORCED to make some sort of choice they do not like, in order to "even the odds", some are happy with being HANDED a "solution" without having to put forth any effort. THAT is having your cake and eating it too. Alas, the real problem will remain, and the "fix" will get more severe, and those same people will wonder what happened.
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Originally posted by J_A_B
Arlo--
I usually respect you, but ...
You can still fly any plane you want to. Your refusal to switch to do it does make you bull-headed stubborn, amigo. And the rationalization that "numbers change therefore if I switch I still may be denied my late war chariot anyway" simply means the ENY restriction actually has gotten some players to realize that switching from time to time isn't the end of the world. They're willing to "go to the extreme effort" that you're not willing to. So see? Works out. Don't like the weather? Wait 10 minutes and it'll change. Ain't got ten minutes? You never had time for this hobby to begin with.
Hope you find the greener grass you seek. If not, come on back and have fun in the dirt. Either the squeeky wheel will get the system changed back or players will learn to adapt to the "disaster" and have fun again like they did when their favorite ride got perked. :)
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What do you see as the solution Savage?
For me, I'd unperk em all. And I'd eliminate 'winning the reset", via the uncapturable, undamageable bases in each country.
I'd create targets for the bomber guys to go after, whether it be attack stuff or strategic, besides the base bombing
In the end it sounds like the old AW1 stuff, but somehow that let everyone do their thing.
It would be nice to see the community start to build itself better and develop some sort of identity, whether it be the bomber guys or the fighter guys.
I know it's just me getting nostalgic for my 'golden time' in a flight sim as Blue Baron described it way back when, but I liked it when I knew the guys I was fighting with and against and there was much more of a maturity to the arena. I know the oldtimers that preceeded us would dispute that :) I don't ever remember caring if we "won the war". It was the battle in the air that mattered.
If it hadn't been that way, the Nomads would have never formed as we were from every country and had gotten to know each other battling it out over the water in AW1.
I suppose, thinking about it as I write, that the constant shuffling of the maps probably doesn't help as well as there are no 'familiar' battlegrounds where players or squads stake out their turf so to speak.
Once again, I know it's nostalgia for me to a time when a flight sim felt right. I don't envy Hitech having to somehow find a ground that pleases most.
Dan/Slack
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Originally posted by Captain Virgil Hilts
... some are happy with being HANDED a "solution" without having to put forth any effort.
Conversely, some people are happy to be a continuing part of a problem until it starts taking effort. Then they'll still be a part of the problem but they'll not be happy about it.
Zazen talked about the community being able to take care of the problem in it's own way on it's own schedule. I suggested giving it a try for two weeks (or even a month) and he waffled.
And honestly, I looked long and hard for a solution in your posts, my friend but all I saw was a discussion about how human nature rejects being forced or coerced to do anything and how misjudged the rooks are and how the community should be able to handle number disparity on it's own.
I don't think that's really a solution. But I'll make the same concession to you (not that it's in my power to make the change). I'll side with any and everyone here to request that the ENY restriction be lifted for a month and if the community can figure out a suitable alternative to what HT implemented ... yippee.
(Bear in mind that I still don't care whether ENY restriction or the horde mentality exists. I'm just gonna challenge the wall of whine to put up or shut up.) ;)
No offense. We are friends, as far as I'm concerned. :)
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Ok so I see how it is
Issue doesn't affect you personally so you discount those who it does affect.
Please highlight the part where I said I refuse to switch. I said It's annoying; never said I wouldn't do it. Of course I also pointed out that due to my unique play style and limited time that switching frequently wouldn't help (confirmed by my observations). Well...you make clear that you expect people to to just "suck up" what we dislike and move on.
To which I reply:
I'm not here to "put up with it", I do enough of that at work. I'm here to have fun. If this stops being fun then I leave, no big deal.
Glad you continue to like it. Hope that doesn't change.
J_A_B
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Originally posted by J_A_B
Glad you continue to like it. Hope that doesn't change.
J_A_B
I hope so too, because if it does it's probably because I'm dead, incarcerated or living in a gutter in some big city suffering from amnesia. :D
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my idea of fun will be a rps.
not just 1945-> planes that are competitive
1rst day 1939-40 including BOB. spit1 ju88 109e etc
2nd day 40-41 109f early 190a2 spit5
etc
3rd day 41-42 p38f f4f zero m2 etc etc
4rd day 42-43 p38j b17 109g2 etc
5th dat 43-44 109g6 190a8 b24 f6f
f4u a36 p47c etc
6th day jun44-dec44 190dora
mustang d model 109g10 ki84 etc etc
7th day 262 arado 234 me163 meteor
Many wants their favourite ride 4-ever
but they have to learn to be good in more than one uberplane.
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Oh..Oh, Oh!
I just had a bright moment!
Fear not whiners, you can just change to the side which has lower numbers. That way you can fly what you want and you can escape the terrible punishment the ENY system is bringing upon you.
Hah!
I bet you never thought of that!
...
No need to thank me, I'm always happy to help.
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two countries cling desperately to the idea that the ONLY reason the third has more active players is because there is safety in numbers. And completely ignore the possibility that the reason they have fewer active players at any time is likely due to something within themselves. All the while lashing out blindly at anything or anyone that suggests that rather than look, beg, or whine for a handout, they do something for themselves. The more things change, the more they stay the same.:rolleyes:
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Originally posted by Guppy35
You want to limit certain planes. Go deep to hit the aircraft factories.
Air Warrior had this. Kill the aircraft factory, no more spitfires were available. You could do something similar with the ENY. Kill one factory, planes with ENY lower then X are no longer available. Kill a second plane factory, planes with ENY lower than Y are no longer available. Or it could be zone specific; kill the zone's aircraft factory and planes below a certain ENY would no longer be available in that zone. I think it would be more popular than the current ENY system, it would give strategic bombing real importance (assuming the factory was deep and hard enough to destroy that a few suicide JABOs couldn't do it), and it would be a big incentive for teams to actively defend at least one of their factories.
My main issue with the whole "change sides to even numbers" philosophy is that many of us have flown with many of the others on our "teams" for years and have developed a large network of people we know and trust to fly with. I don't want to see them or me deciding to go to another side to balance a temporary inequity in the arena only to be locked in when the imbalance shifts to another side, potentially even the one they or we went to. While I understand the desire to prevent the hordes, I also struggle with the frustration of facing the opposition on some other part of the map where I am out-numbered and forced to fly something other than what I want to fly given the local situation. So far it hasn't been a major problem, but I have muttered under my breath a few times.
Hammer
netAces.org (http://www.netaces.org) - Tips, Tactics and More!
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Originally posted by Arlo
Conversely, some people are happy to be a continuing part of a problem until it starts taking effort. Then they'll still be a part of the problem but they'll not be happy about it.
Zazen talked about the community being able to take care of the problem in it's own way on it's own schedule. I suggested giving it a try for two weeks (or even a month) and he waffled.
And honestly, I looked long and hard for a solution in your posts, my friend but all I saw was a discussion about how human nature rejects being forced or coerced to do anything and how misjudged the rooks are and how the community should be able to handle number disparity on it's own.
I don't think that's really a solution. But I'll make the same concession to you (not that it's in my power to make the change). I'll side with any and everyone here to request that the ENY restriction be lifted for a month and if the community can figure out a suitable alternative to what HT implemented ... yippee.
(Bear in mind that I still don't care whether ENY restriction or the horde mentality exists. I'm just gonna challenge the wall of whine to put up or shut up.) ;)
No offense. We are friends, as far as I'm concerned. :)
Again, you ASSUME that the Rooks are the root of the problem because they "refuse to switch sides and even things up". You ignore the reasons why they won't, and yet you blame them still. You see one side as supposedly having a "horde" all the time, when that is not at all the case. You also discount the known fact that over time, the disparity has always existed, in favor of no one side more than another, and has always been transient, never permanent.
Actually, you have no real arguement nor any real position, you just simply argue to argue. It is what you like to do. You for some reason see yourself as some sort of "anti whine avenger", and you like to play at it, regardless of the situation. That, of course, makes you Arlo. As it has been, and as it will be. In this case, you've decided to create a new (only the latest) cause, that being that anyone who is against the ENY system, for whatever reason, is nothing other than a whiner. It amuses you, and occupies your time. Again, that just makes you Arlo, as it has been, and as it will be. Oh well. The more things change, the more they stay the same.
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Originally posted by Captain Virgil Hilts
Again, you ASSUME that the Rooks are the root of the problem because they "refuse to switch sides and even things up". You ignore the reasons why they won't, and yet you blame them still.
Actually you are assuming. And in doing so, you reveal your own impressions. I never said that. Read the post again, my friend. :aok
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Originally posted by Guppy35
What do you see as the solution Savage?
For me, I'd unperk em all. And I'd eliminate 'winning the reset", via the uncapturable, undamageable bases in each country.
I'd create targets for the bomber guys to go after, whether it be attack stuff or strategic, besides the base bombing
In the end it sounds like the old AW1 stuff, but somehow that let everyone do their thing.
It would be nice to see the community start to build itself better and develop some sort of identity, whether it be the bomber guys or the fighter guys.
I know it's just me getting nostalgic for my 'golden time' in a flight sim as Blue Baron described it way back when, but I liked it when I knew the guys I was fighting with and against and there was much more of a maturity to the arena. I know the oldtimers that preceeded us would dispute that :) I don't ever remember caring if we "won the war". It was the battle in the air that mattered.
If it hadn't been that way, the Nomads would have never formed as we were from every country and had gotten to know each other battling it out over the water in AW1.
I suppose, thinking about it as I write, that the constant shuffling of the maps probably doesn't help as well as there are no 'familiar' battlegrounds where players or squads stake out their turf so to speak.
Once again, I know it's nostalgia for me to a time when a flight sim felt right. I don't envy Hitech having to somehow find a ground that pleases most.
Dan/Slack
Just as I keep saying, the solution is to find out WHY there is this supposed disparity. I think the disparity is a lot less than it is made out to be, and it is very transient. I also think I know what is going on and why. Of course, I'm pretty certain it won't matter.
From what I've seen, and I try to log in and look at different times on different days, this so called numbers thing is very transient, on certain nights, at any given time, any one side will have some measure of advantage, or disadvantage. No one side seems to hold any massive advantage all the time.
I'm not able to look as closely as DokGonzo, but he says he's found that there are Rook nights, there are Bishop nights, and there are Knight nights (pardon the goofy sound of that). Meaning all three countries have their nights in the barrel, and all three have their time on top. As it will be no matter what.
Back to what I said earlier, and why I don't think the "reset war" has much to do with it. The reset gains people very little. Only 75 perks IF you are there when the reset happens ( can take hours, people log on and off). Even the quest for the reset gains you little if you have numbers, as perks are refactored so you get much less if you have a numerical advantage, and the kills and captures (and the smaller perk rewards) are distributed among a much larger group.
As such, so long as there are ANY captureable and/or destroyable features, there will be those who seek to do so. So there will ALWAYS at times be masses who seek to do so. Because there will always be groups on any one side who gather together to do so. There will be ebb and flow in the numbers. Without those features, a large portion will be unhappy with gameplay, and will either play less, or find something else that fulfills their need and do that instead, and not play here at all. I don't think we REALLY want that.
Dan, I know you miss the old days. It was a different time and place, gone forever. You think I DON'T miss it? We can NEVER bring it back, we can't go back, and we can't make AH into the old days. But we CAN make it much better, but the ENY limiter WILL NOT do it.
I actually have several things I'm looking at and am developing a theory as to why the extremes of the current situation exist. And why one certain side seems to be causing the other two such a terrible problem, supposedly. When I'm done, I'll toss it out there, and I'm very certain it will be dismissed and ignored.
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Originally posted by Arlo
Actually you are assuming. And in doing so, you reveal your own impressions. I never said that. Read the post again, my friend. :aok
I read it. You've taken the position that those against the ENY limiter are the whiners. You consistently take the position that they should have to suffer a switch of sides they don't want or suffer the ENY limiter. Your position is that it is fair, and anyone against it is a whiner.
As far as your proposed time limits for change to take place, you know damned good and well you can't force the natural ebb and flow numbers swing in a certain time frame. It does not work that way, and you've been around long enough to know better.
You'll pardon me if I don't take much if any more time to verbally joust with you. I'm actually working on some theories about what is happening and why. The arguement for the sake of arguing is leading down a dead end road. It is gaining nothing.
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Originally posted by Captain Virgil Hilts
I'm actually working on some theories about what is happening and why.
it's very simple...
here's the cliff's notes of zazen's opus....
human nature. in other words, #'s beget #'s. lemmings are as lemmings do.
and the "vets" in general, on all sides, have been terrible role models for the noobs coming in.
and fragile egos.
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Originally posted by Shane
it's very simple...
here's the cliff's notes of zazen's opus....
human nature. in other words, #'s beget #'s. lemmings are as lemmings do.
and the "vets" in general, on all sides, have been terrible role models for the noobs coming in.
and fragile egos.
It is actually more complex than that, I'm pretty sure. Sure there is the herd mentality, but that does not explain it all. You make some valid points.
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very few things, if anything, are more complicated than human nature.
but it boils down to monkey see, monkey do. of course there are different types of monkeys. and some monkeys evolve.
"birds of a feather, monkey-do together."
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Originally posted by Captain Virgil Hilts
I read it. You've taken the position that those against the ENY limiter are the whiners. You consistently take the position that they should have to suffer a switch of sides they don't want or suffer the ENY limiter. Your position is that it is fair, and anyone against it is a whiner.
There ya go, Virg. And yes, that's my take. It had nothing to do with persecuting rooks from the get go. Thank you.
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Originally posted by Arlo
There ya go, Virg. And yes, that's my take. It had nothing to do with persecuting rooks from the get go. Thank you.
You confuse using the Rooks as an example with saying they are persecuted. Which once again IGNORES my position that I don't like the restriction applied to ANYONE. This isn't about me, I fly other planes. This is not about the Rooks, others are affected as well. This IS about an illconceived "solution" to a problem that does not really exist to the extent some claim it does. And the fact that the solution isn't really a solution at all.
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Originally posted by Shane
very few things, if anything, are more complicated than human nature.
but it boils down to monkey see, monkey do. of course there are different types of monkeys. and some monkeys evolve.
"birds of a feather, monkey-do together."
LOL. Monkeys, slobberdonkeys, whatever. Always the same. Name calling is an effective solution. It is a real boon to the community. Everyone responds well to it. NOT.:rolleyes:
And yes, you fly better than I do. So what? My son is better at Pokemon on his Gameboy. So you're on the same level, you're better at a game than some. Big deal. In the greater scheme of things, even in the game, it means little. Or really, it means nothing. And you know it.
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Originally posted by Captain Virgil Hilts
You confuse using the Rooks as an example with saying they are persecuted. Which once again IGNORES my position that I don't like the restriction applied to ANYONE. This isn't about me, I fly other planes. This is not about the Rooks, others are affected as well. This IS about an illconceived "solution" to a problem that does not really exist to the extent some claim it does. And the fact that the solution isn't really a solution at all.
There is always going to be restriction in one form or another. I would imagine the argument was made that the overwhelming hordes restrict people's flying.
If I'm hemmed in to a couple of constantly capped bases with no real chance to fly, where's the enjoyment for me?
You could in return say, "Switch sides" but that's hardly balancing if I join the horde just so I can get up and away from an airfield.
So it still comes down to trying to balance things so the restrictions on everyone are limited as opposed to overwhelming.
Dan/Slack
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The ENY limiter applies to all three teams equally. How Rooks are the *persecuted* team is beyond my comprehension. Flying for Knights there have been times I couldnt fly certain planes because of the limiter, no biggie for me, I just select a different plane.
If I am flying against a team that has a large numbers advantage I am happy that I wont be facing 5 P51D's, 8 Spit9's, 12 La-7's and 15 N1k2's all at the same time.
The ENY limiter evens the playing field. If you choose to change sides or not, that is up to you.
Mr Virgil, how much fun do you think it is to repeatedly get ganged by hordes of late war planes? It's not fun at all and I suspect that is a big reason why HiTech implemented the ENY limiter. Games are meant to be fun, when a game isnt fun for everyone involved it is no longer a game.
No one is forcing you to change countries, although that is an option and always was. We all make many many choices everyday. Why is one more choice to make so horrendous to so many people? If you choose to not change countries then you may very well have the ENY limiter kick in and have limits imposed on what aircraft you can fly. You make the choice and the consequences (good or bad) kick in. That happens with every single choice we make in life, why should this game be any different?
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NEVER punish a paying customer by taking something from him. Offer a reward or incentive or something to another customer to make them happy. But NEVER punish a customer by taking something away from him that you allow another customer to continue to have and enjoy. Never FORCE a customer to do something he does not want to do, like make a choice he would not ordinarily have to make.
It all depends upon the angle at which you look at it.
Just think of it as a REWARD ... you can fly all planes because you chose to fly for an outnumbered country.
Think of it from the standpoint that all countries have all planes disabled and only if you try to achieve numbers balance, will you be REWARDED with better planes.
It's where you came from that leads you to believe that it is a punishment ... I have chosen to look at it from the other angle.
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OH the insanity ... Help help help somebody Saaaaaaaaave ME !!!
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Once again, for those of you who choose to ignore what I'm saying, and to repeatedly make this about any one country, or any one person, or any one plane. Read carefully.
The ENY limit rarely affects me and when it does, I fly another plane. Not a problem for me. From a personal enjoyment standpoit I DON'T CARE. It is NOT all about me, or my favorite plane. I don't have a problem with flying the TBolt or the Corsair. As much as you'd LIKE for this to be the case it is not. Get over it. I'm just as bad in one as I am the other, and I don't need this game to stroke my ego.
This is not about the Rooks being "persecuted" no matter how much you'd like that to be the case. It IS about any player on any side who happens to like a particular plane, and is forced to either abandon that plane or switch sides, neither of which he WANTS to do. I really don't care if he's a Bishop or a Knight, or a Rook. I don't even care if it is a person I have a personal dislike for. He's playing a GAME because he WANTS to, because he ENJOYS it. I don't give a damn WHAT he flies, he can have it. It's part of his fun. More power to him.
The absolute worst he can do to me is shoot me down in virtual reality. Big fat hairy freaking deal. And I'll still fight him if he has an ENY 5 plane and three buddies with ENY 5 planes, and I'm alone. I'll fly out of my way and specifically go there to fight him and his buddies, even alone. I do not need a silly GAME as a yardstick to stroke my ego or prove my manhood. If I'm in the mood to play, I'll take any fight, against any plane, and any pilot. I'll go look for a better pilot who always beats me, and fight him over and over, and don't care if I lose every time, so long as I most often make a decent fight of it. If the odds get too bad, I'll either log for a while, or move.
I don't want to see anyone face overwhelming odds every time they log on. But I have yet to see that happen to any one side on a daily basis for even a week. I log on at least five out of seven days, often more. And despite all the Bravo Sierra to the contrary, I've seen the Rooks outnumbered and down to 1/3 or less the fields of either of the other two countries as many as 2 or 3 nights in any given week, and if you divide 7 days by three countries, you get 2 1/3 days each, so that ain't too bad at all. I've logged on and found Rooks to be in the hole on just about any night of the week but Sunday, and a time or two I've seen it then. I've seen Knights or Bishops with the upper hand 1 or 2 nights a week a piece most every week. To hear a bunch of people around here tell it, the Rooks have both countries down to 3 or 4 fields and getting vulched to pieces at least 5 out of 7 nights every week. That's the biggest crock of crap I've heard since I started flight sims 6 or 7 years ago.
I'm going to go and celebrate my daughter's birthday, and then fly. I'm sure I'll here plenty of whines tonight about numbers and altitude. I'll ignore them because they are whines. If you are looking for someone to give you a level field or to come at you with no advantage, quit playing against real people and go find an AI game. Enjoy yourselves, I know I will.
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Originally posted by Captain Virgil Hilts
You confuse using the Rooks as an example with saying they are persecuted. Which once again IGNORES my position that I don't like the restriction applied to ANYONE. This isn't about me, I fly other planes. This is not about the Rooks, others are affected as well. This IS about an illconceived "solution" to a problem that does not really exist to the extent some claim it does. And the fact that the solution isn't really a solution at all.
Why's it ME gots ta be confused bout dis, Kingfish?
Ah says all de whinin' and carryin' on ovuh not wantin' ta switch cause switchin' too hard is de sillyest ting come down de pike.
Yo says Ah is assumin' all sorts o' evil tings `bout dee rooks.
Ah says yo is assumin' Ah's gots a problem wit dee rooks.
You says *AH'S* confusin' yo tawkin' bout dee rooks wit you meanin' ta tawk bout somethin' else an' dat Ah's ignoin' whut ya really meant ta say.
Wait .... yeauh .... ok, Kingfish .... Ah *IS* confused now.
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I think I'll take my pet rock out for a walk ... by the glass house's of course :D
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Originally posted by Captain Virgil Hilts
And yes, you fly better than I do. So what? Or really, it means nothing. And you know it.
correct. that's why i never raised the issue. :confused:
ever heard the idiom's "birds of a feather flock together" and "monkey-see, monkey-do"? all i was referring to is the human nature aspect of what i perceive to be the "problem" with the overall in-game AH community. i never mentioned any specific ride, side or coding.