Aces High Bulletin Board

General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Makarov9 on September 07, 2004, 02:01:26 PM

Title: UK Navy to use Windows for Warships
Post by: Makarov9 on September 07, 2004, 02:01:26 PM
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2004/09/06/ams_goes_windows_for_warships/ (http://www.theregister.co.uk/2004/09/06/ams_goes_windows_for_warships/)

"INCOMING SILKWORM!  Reboot damnit REBOOT!"
Title: UK Navy to use Windows for Warships
Post by: Nilsen on September 07, 2004, 02:20:15 PM
Did you by any chanse find the link at subsim.com?

I would never trust bill to control warships, but i guess the know what they are doing
Title: UK Navy to use Windows for Warships
Post by: Skuzzy on September 07, 2004, 02:33:17 PM
I doubt they know what they are doing if they are allowing Windows anywhere near a warship.

Captain:  INCOMING!  Get the defense net up!
GeekMate FC: Sir!  WE'VE BLUE SCREENED!
Captain:  No BS!!!!  Get it back up!
GeekMate FC:  We have a dirty file system!  It'll be......

**BOOM**
Title: UK Navy to use Windows for Warships
Post by: Makarov9 on September 07, 2004, 02:46:01 PM
Neg, found the link on The Inquirer (http://www.theinquirer.net/) .
Title: UK Navy to use Windows for Warships
Post by: Nilsen on September 07, 2004, 02:50:24 PM
ok :)
Title: UK Navy to use Windows for Warships
Post by: 2Slow on September 07, 2004, 02:55:03 PM
hack military broadband, hack defense Windows.  Sink ship.
Title: UK Navy to use Windows for Warships
Post by: Chortle on September 07, 2004, 02:56:44 PM
Quote
And in case you're wondering, the Vanguard class boats carry the UK's Trident thermo-nuclear intercontinental ballistic missiles. So some people think that's a heap of responsibility for Windows to carry.
lol Holy crap.
Title: UK Navy to use Windows for Warships
Post by: AKS\/\/ulfe on September 07, 2004, 02:58:43 PM
Windows has experienced a Fatal Error at : 0d 0a 35 ff 5d a7 f2

Nuclear Payload launched


-SW
Title: UK Navy to use Windows for Warships
Post by: Saurdaukar on September 07, 2004, 03:02:58 PM
404:  Target aircraft cannot be found.  The target you are looking for may have been removed, had its IR signiture changed or is temporarily unavailable.

Please try the following:

*If you typed the aircraft designation into the target bar, make sure that it is spelled correctly.

*Open the http://www.microsoft.com homepage and then look for links to the information about the aircraft that you want to target.

*Click the "Previous target" button to try another target.

*Click the "Search" button to look for information about this problem on the internet.

HTTP 404 - File not found.
(C)2004 Microsoft Windows for Warships.

[calm yet sexy female voice] Warning.  Warning.  Apex inbound.  Drop flare.[/calm yet sexy female voice]
Title: UK Navy to use Windows for Warships
Post by: Makarov9 on September 07, 2004, 03:26:25 PM
ROFL, nice one Saurd :D
Title: UK Navy to use Windows for Warships
Post by: fd ski on September 07, 2004, 03:46:50 PM
yeah yeah yeah... windoze this windoze that..

I used to think that windows was the worst thing ever, then I got a job leading a software project written in java on unix... you lads haven't seen nothing yet..
Title: UK Navy to use Windows for Warships
Post by: Skuzzy on September 07, 2004, 03:48:24 PM
OT:  Java on UNIX is sort of like mixing water and oil fdski.  I do not envy you and wonder about a company that would use Java on UNIX (actually on anything..but let's save that for another discussion).

Back on topic, between UNIX and Windows, I would trust UNIX a lot more than Windows for anything critical.
Title: UK Navy to use Windows for Warships
Post by: AKS\/\/ulfe on September 07, 2004, 03:50:24 PM
So many people are moving to coding in Java now-a-days too. They actually replaced C and C++ courses in atleast one school's curriculum with Java classes. Scary that the trend is towards bloatware and uber-slow programs.
-SW
Title: UK Navy to use Windows for Warships
Post by: fd ski on September 07, 2004, 03:56:13 PM
Well Scuzzy, before i did that, i did admin a bunch of unix boxes for a while. Amount of root hacks of all sorts wasn't much different from those in windows, main difference was the fact that latter gets called on it on TV due to sheer number of users.

If media reported ever root hack on unix, it would make unix look just as bad as windows does.

As for java, well, it sucks. Scares the bejesus out of me, but i do have good people working for me so i'm at least lucky in that way.

Company in question is one of the largest software houses in poland, but it's a nuthouse from hell really :)

Let's just say I was writing an official fax from the client to myself today which will be mailed to the client tomorrow and faxed with his signature back to me in two days. How is that for insane ? :D
Title: UK Navy to use Windows for Warships
Post by: Nilsen on September 07, 2004, 03:57:31 PM
java sucks

oh.. and flash. flash sucks

so does acrobat even if the intention is good. actobat sucks

basicly everything that doesnt open FAST on my 866mhz P3M laptop sucks.
Title: UK Navy to use Windows for Warships
Post by: Skuzzy on September 07, 2004, 04:00:28 PM
fdski, I have worked for companies like that.  I do not envy your position and fully understand exactly what you are going through.

Out of the box, UNIX is easy to hack into.  But, it can be made far more bulletproof than Windows if you have a good UNIX guy on it.

Good luck there fdski.
Title: UK Navy to use Windows for Warships
Post by: Saurdaukar on September 07, 2004, 04:06:33 PM
I hate acrobat.  Hate.
Title: UK Navy to use Windows for Warships
Post by: straffo on September 07, 2004, 04:22:34 PM
Quote
Originally posted by AKS\/\/ulfe
So many people are moving to coding in Java now-a-days too. They actually replaced C and C++ courses in atleast one school's curriculum with Java classes. Scary that the trend is towards bloatware and uber-slow programs.
-SW


Hey I've seen perfect bloatware made in C/C++

And a feked uber-slow program made in assembleur ...

All is in the coder not in the tool
It remind me a sentence a teacher said about the OOP :

Before your needed to code your bugs now you can inherit them.
Title: UK Navy to use Windows for Warships
Post by: AKS\/\/ulfe on September 07, 2004, 04:31:29 PM
Yeah, but I meant bloatware minus the programmers. It doesn't matter who programs in Java, it takes way more power to process than would the same application written in C/C++.

No matter how stream line you make Java, its still not going to be as fast as streamlined C/C++/Assembly.
-SW
Title: UK Navy to use Windows for Warships
Post by: bikekil on September 07, 2004, 04:34:07 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Skuzzy
OT:  Java on UNIX is sort of like mixing water and oil fdski.  I do not envy you and wonder about a company that would use Java on UNIX (actually on anything..but let's save that for another discussion).

Back on topic, between UNIX and Windows, I would trust UNIX a lot more than Windows for anything critical.


Sun would be the company mixing unix and java, on their "bios free" machines :)

Java sucks and is a security risk while allowed on web browsers, but it's just the nature of anything that can controll your stuff.
Title: UK Navy to use Windows for Warships
Post by: straffo on September 07, 2004, 04:43:10 PM
hmmmm .... depend of the software

A software using the API a lot and tons of RPC call can be slow whatever language is used.

It's allways ,a compromise between the raw performances and the ease of developpement/maintenance.

I usualy code in C++ recently I had to make a software really fast (less than 1 week).
As this software was mostly UI ,I used C# because it's easy to use and debug plus I needed train myself.

If we look at this software with a profiler it's likely that a  C++ version will be faster but only between the call to the API ie : where there is almost no code ;).
Title: UK Navy to use Windows for Warships
Post by: Flyboy on September 07, 2004, 05:02:47 PM
i just had a week ago the 2nd (out of 4) classification to "boot camp" in the IAF as a future pilot. and guess what they use windows


any chance one of you guys hack in to it and send me the questions in advance?

dont worry ill put a good word for you if the mossad gets you.

well anyone? skuzzy?



:D
Title: UK Navy to use Windows for Warships
Post by: Skuzzy on September 07, 2004, 05:07:46 PM
And there are very few places where C++ cannot be outdone using C.

All languages have a purpose or a place where they will shine.  C is probably the best multi-purpose language there is.

C++/C# both suffer from the compilers and how constructs must be placed onto the stack, even when only one element is needed.

Sun created Java as a WEB tool, not as a general language.  But PHP will run circles around most WEB based Java implementations.
--

A bad programmer can make any language look bad, but even a great programmer would have a hard time making Java look better than a comparable C/C++ program.
Title: UK Navy to use Windows for Warships
Post by: AKIron on September 07, 2004, 06:34:40 PM
Run XP on solid hardware without adding a bunch of crap software and it's pretty stable.
Title: UK Navy to use Windows for Warships
Post by: United on September 07, 2004, 06:51:02 PM
Hope they dont get a message similar to this one, :rolleyes:

http://www.dc8p.34sp.com/pix/image.php?id=142
Title: UK Navy to use Windows for Warships
Post by: Pei on September 07, 2004, 07:05:43 PM
Quote
Originally posted by AKS\/\/ulfe
Yeah, but I meant bloatware minus the programmers. It doesn't matter who programs in Java, it takes way more power to process than would the same application written in C/C++.

No matter how stream line you make Java, its still not going to be as fast as streamlined C/C++/Assembly.
-SW


You won't make it as fast in Java or as small a footpint, but you can certainly get it up and running quicker and make it more maintainable.

Pure computational performance is rarely the primary requirement in most business.  The the main reason people move from C++ to Java: Java is easier, and has lots of standard components you don't have to build from scratch.

Most of the stuff I work on is bound by essentailly by I/O  (usually access to DBs) and so the CPU performance doesn't make much difference. When I work on system software I tend to favour C or C++.

As Straffo said it 's about picking the right tools for the job.

I'm curious FD: what's so awful about Java on Unix?
Title: UK Navy to use Windows for Warships
Post by: Pei on September 07, 2004, 07:14:44 PM
Back on topic: my experience has been that a properly administered unix (or linux) box is more stable and more secure than a proerly administered windows box.

Of course good unxi sysadmins cost more than good windows sysadmins.

If I was running something that absolutely had to be stable and perform as required I'd run it on unix.
Title: UK Navy to use Windows for Warships
Post by: Gunslinger on September 07, 2004, 08:32:45 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Skuzzy
OT:  Java on UNIX is sort of like mixing water and oil fdski.  I do not envy you and wonder about a company that would use Java on UNIX (actually on anything..but let's save that for another discussion).

Back on topic, between UNIX and Windows, I would trust UNIX a lot more than Windows for anything critical.


If it makes you feel any better Skuzzy FAA ATC's new RADAR/COM system is a network that utilizes Unix based workstations instead of huge bulky 1950s era CRTs
Title: UK Navy to use Windows for Warships
Post by: bikekil on September 08, 2004, 02:31:35 PM
Quote
Originally posted by AKIron
Run XP on solid hardware without adding a bunch of crap software and it's pretty stable.


Far from trusting M$, but when you know how to administer it, when you use a group or local policy management, when you don't work as an admin all the time, don't use IE and so on, it's pretty secure.

I tell you, after working with lcamtuf, bulba, nises or cliph (use google ;) ) i can tell you - saying that linux or unix is secure is like saying that Yeti exists :)

Unix requires moe knowledge (aka is not that easy) then Windows so in most cases administrators of the machines have better idea what to do.
Title: UK Navy to use Windows for Warships
Post by: Skuzzy on September 08, 2004, 02:39:53 PM
Bike, I have to deal with both platforms and find UNIX much easier to secure and manage than Windows.

Security aside, there is no way any version of Windows is more stable than a properly setup UNIX system.  Especially if you are using multi-CPU's.  A little memory leak, inherent in Windows, will insure it cannot be as stable.
Title: UK Navy to use Windows for Warships
Post by: AKIron on September 08, 2004, 02:43:29 PM
I guess it really comes down to what they are planning to run on their Windows boxes. Don't think you can run Aces High or Doom 3 on Unix. ;)
Title: UK Navy to use Windows for Warships
Post by: Skuzzy on September 08, 2004, 02:44:23 PM
Actually you can run Doom 3 on Linux.
Title: UK Navy to use Windows for Warships
Post by: AKIron on September 08, 2004, 02:49:10 PM
And you can run Aces High on Lindows, but would you really want to?
Title: UK Navy to use Windows for Warships
Post by: ASTAC on September 08, 2004, 02:49:10 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Nilsen
Did you by any chanse find the link at subsim.com?

I would never trust bill to control warships, but i guess the know what they are doing


Thats why most US Navy programs are UNIX:D
Title: UK Navy to use Windows for Warships
Post by: bikekil on September 08, 2004, 03:35:58 PM
Skuzzy, you are right, unix/linux is easier to secure...maybe because it was meant to be a part of the network.

but this does not make windows unsecure. as i said, if you armove a flawed stuff and secure windows box well, it's pretty good.

Stability is another case. Unix-like systems are by fare more effective (as i'd call it).Then i'd say AD (based on ldap) and AD-like mamagement makes windows (in my eyes) by far better back-office system. everything about windows AD is just great :)
You could try ISA server as a firewall... but after playing with it for about a year i say, it's nowere close to what unix/linux can give you.
Title: UK Navy to use Windows for Warships
Post by: Staga on September 08, 2004, 04:12:02 PM
Can't say bad word about the XP's stability; this PC has been making avi's from some of the DVDs I have in my collection for few days running at 80-100% CPU-load all the time.
Add surfing in the web, checking emails, chatting with friends via ICQ and MSN, listening music etc etc...  I'm satisfied.