Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: KurtVW on September 07, 2004, 11:50:55 PM
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While what your asking for would be extreamly difficult to implement. One thing I had been thinking about over the week end is changing the hardness of all targets with the balance ratio.
And adjusting Ack lethality based on numbers.
HiTEch
You have a game which is balanced by the relative skills of the players. You do not have a game which is hobbled my artifical 'skill levels' or anything of that nature. You have created a pure skill online game. As far as I know, you are the ONLY ONE.
If you continue to tinker to appease the minority you are going to destroy your game. I am a programmer myself. Not games I admit. But one thing a programmer must learn is when to stop messing with the product. Your's works fine. You will never code it to the satisfaction of everyone and the minority will forever be the loudest voice.
If you must tinker, tinker game performance, not artificial whine reduction systems. It turns out that some airplanes REALLY were better... Some Pilots REALLY were better, and one side was always outnumbered. That is the hard reality. Whiners really need to get over it,,, Whiners are the minority.
Please, average the complainers against your player base... see what a small percentage they are.. Stop trying to code to the lowest common denominator. We are in a skill based game, those without skill will never be happy. You can't code skill for them.
If you code a game that favors the unskilled, the skilled will find a new sandbox. And I'm sure you don't want that, you are gamers yourself.
Please step away from the keyboard. Most of us love your product... George Lucas thought he could make Star Wars better.. He was wrong, Speilberg thought he could make E.T. better..He was wrong... Don't follow that example.
You have the best online combat sim BAR NONE.. Just make it run better, make it look better.. But don't code it to try to think for the players, thats bad news... and its been proven over and over again in the online world.
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Deleted for personal attack.
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Nice read Kurt
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Kurt, I dont think anyone could have said it better.Hitech has allowed the the whines to control his product..A product that is fast becoming a sore to many longtime flight simmers such as myself.This Sim is a great product but is fast becoming a product that caters to the whiners.HT....be careful Sir...you are treading on thin ice..alot of longtime friends and Veteran Simmers are very displeased with your evolution of this product..New subscribers are not worth the masses that you are losing.Just my 2 cents and observations of the exodus occuring..<
>
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Originally posted by KurtVW
You have the best online combat sim BAR NONE.. Just make it run better, make it look better.. But don't code it to try to think for the players, thats bad news... and its been proven over and over again in the online world.
I wholeheartedly agree!
I personally think that forcing people to even up sides is rediculous. With a multi team game, there will always be one side that will be outnumbered. And adjusting ENY and perk values does nothing to balance gameplay overall.
On any day or time, you can find at least one base that is being totally overrun by a horde of enemy. Do we try to balance that by not allowing vulching? How far do you go to try and balance play? Should play be balanced at all?
Maybe the beauty and success of AH1, was the total free-for-all aspect of the wars. It was up to the members to come together and figure out tactics and alliances. That was part of the fun of Aces High. It was truely "total war."
And, in any group situation, when under adverse and dire conditions, there is always a small percentage of people who will "rise to the challenge" and take control, in order to organize and mount defenses and counter attacks.
By imposing "play balancing," you take away incentive for organizational behaviors. Play balancing is essentially destroying the incentive to bring each team's community together to fight a common foe.
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Deleted
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Wow, thanks for the resounding support guys!
I knew I thought it out well, but I'm surprised to see such energetic approval.
Thanks again.
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Very well put Kurt. Condescending to the lowest common denominator, or 'dumbing down' almost always equates to the sacrafice of overall product quality. Striking a balance betwen the attraction of new customers and the retention of the old ones is a precarious endeavor. My design philosophy if I were in HT's postion would be twofold and can be expressed with two popular cliches:
1) KISS- (K)eep (I)t (S)imple (S)tupid
2) If it ain't broke don't 'fix' it!
You basically re-iterated what I said in another thread. You cannot hard-code solutions to basic human nature and the natural proclivities of the human animal. When you attempt to manipulate the complex human animal by using mathematical equations, formulae and code you get highly unpredicatable and often undesirable results. For a company like HTC which has their entire financial success or failure riding on this one single product, that is a very dangerous road to travel down.
Zazen
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OMFG!!!!!
Another guy with a brain in his head! woot!
The "make it run better" "make it look better" My favorite
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The following isn't directed at you specifically, I've just read several posts that seem to be of the opinion that HT simply gave in to the horde whiners. I think a little more credit is due than that. I don't know what his thinking was, all I can do it try and speculate what he's hoping the ENY system will accomplish. But I would like to think that it wasn't a knee jerk reaction to pacify a vocal group of players harping one aspect of gameplay that they felt was wrong.
If I were to be a bit bolder I would venture that it was the hope that no country would actually see the ENY limiter in place. That people would sift and sort and the arena would find a natural balance. Kinda like the idea in the cold war that the alternative to keeping things more or less under control was so horrible that peple were forced into line. If anything I imagine he may have under estamated the rabid devotion people have developed towards a particular country. Which franky I find silly and frustrating.
I hope I'm making sense here, and in hind sight I'm not sure what I was trying to say here. Please keep in mind these are the ramblings of a tired person. I'm in no waying attempting to quote HT merely guess at what his thought process may have been. :)
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Originally posted by Soulyss
That people would sift and sort and the arena would find a natural balance.
Actually, I didn't mind the ENY thing too much, its irratating, but not completely absurd... After all, the Russians are well known for building hoards of inferior equipment sacraficing quality for quantity. Thus they eventually lost the cold war just as they were finally starting to build some seriously capable equipment. Turns out that their economy simply couldn't compete with the west in quality.
Absurd is buildings that get harder as a country gets weaker... I'm pretty sure that history teaches us that the opposite is true.
Anyhow, I quoted the one sentence of yours above because it is the key misconception... You can't make a program force a 'Natural' balance. Natural balance can only occur naturally.. But Zaz knows more about that then me, he's the follower of Zen. :cool:
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Yeah trying to make the world a fair and equal place - albeit a lofty goal - is unrealistic and akin to breaking up pavement to build potholes in upper class neighborhoods - just to be fair. Hitech has a good product here, but these measures are coing to encourage a stalemate instead of a checkmate scenario. I say if one country has a 'horde' online then they are either lucky or have encouraged participation and as such they deserve to win. If it were up to me and of course, it is NOT... There would be no ENY balancing, no 2.0 fuel burn multiplier and no welfare perk system.... but those are my personal tastes. I am a trooper though, I don't have to have everything my way and I will continue to play this game until it either becomes unbearable, or something more suitable to my preferences comes along.
I may be in the minority here, but I just dont like all of the efforts to make everything 'fair' in online games (and elsewhere!). I say if all sides are playing with the same gear, have the same rules and an opportunity to recruit.... the game is at that point fair and the stronger team will dominate.
To Hitech directly - HT, I have enjoyed this game very much and I for one hope the game will continue to improve and the community will grow larger. While I may disagree with some of the specifics in the game I still believe it to be among the best out there. Thanks to you and your staff all of the effort you have put in to keep the game fun and to build the community of pilots that keep the game interesting.
Thats my .02:aok
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Sorry Kurt, I have to disagree. Not the content, but how it was written. I guess I'm a minority... I would take offense if I created my own game. I read that and got the impression of orders being given. There are too many other factors in this equation and I dont think it's possible to simplify it as much as you did. If what you mention were the ONLY issues, then sure, by your logic it has the potential to make sense. I dunno, something about it irks me. but thats me
Moil: Since when did this become an either/or deal? You of all people should know the performance/looks of the game is continually changing and seeing renovation/improvement. I never once thought there was a tradeoff in the whineability vs. playability realm.
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Originally posted by MOIL
OMFG!!!!!
Another guy with a brain in his head! woot!
The "make it run better" "make it look better" My favorite
:lol
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And Kurt,
I never saw HT say anything that made me think that he's trying to "help" the "skilless".
The way I perceive it, he's trying to find a way to balance the teams so that as many players as possible can enjoy the game as much as possible.
Severe numbers imbalance seem to hurt the game for many players (not only a minority), HTC is trying to fix something that is broken.
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Originally posted by KurtVW
Anyhow, I quoted the one sentence of yours above because it is the key misconception... You can't make a program force a 'Natural' balance. Natural balance can only occur naturally.. But Zaz knows more about that then me, he's the follower of Zen. :cool:
In advance I would just like to say the following mini-essay I am writing on 'Natural Balance' is all Kurt's fault! All my friends know not to start talking philosophy with me because they have to slap me to shut me up. ;)
What is Nature? Nature is the sum of all the parts of the universe. Nature is not divisable, nature cannot be observed piece-meal one part totally independant of another, quantum physics teaches us this. The behavior of a sub-atomic particle is sympathetically reactive to the prescence of all other particles and the various fields of energy extending around them. Not only that, but if you were to truly isolate a sub-atmoic particle you still could not observe it in its 'true' state, the mere prescence of the observer alters its properties and behavior.
This is how nature works microcosmically. Nature obeys laws that pervade every facet of its manifestation. Evidence of this is found on the macrocosmic level. There is remarkable similiarity between the behavior of galaxies, solar systems and atoms. The reasons are obvious, they are all acted upon by the same fields of force (gravity, weak and strong electrical force, and magnetic fields). Einstein believed in the Unified field theory a theory that would reconcile these forces into one all pervasive force that could predict the behavior of everything in the known universe from super-string formations of galaxies to the tiniest sub-atomic particle. I also believe this exists, but we're missing a 5th field of force that is hitherto unknown, or I should more correctly say, un-quantified.
How does this effect Aces High? Well, suprisingly the answer is quite simple. Aces High is a contrivance borne by technology and innovation. The program has no dynamic nature in and of itself. The program can be perfect in every way, no bugs, everything modelled completely true to the laws of physics and operate at maximum temporal efficiency (no server/client lag). However, add human beings to the program and immediately, the ability to predict outcomes is annhialated. Humans, like the program and everything else in the physical universe are bound by laws. Human Nature, on an individual level is HIGHLY unpredicatable, no two humans perceive the exact same event in the exact same way, ever! How can this be? It happens because there is no true objectivity. Like the isloated sub-atomic particle that behaves differently just because it is being observed, humans behave differently because of one main factor, memory. Memory is a function of evolution that allows us to learn from mistakes, this enhances survival. Memory as it relates to experience super-imposes itself upon all sensory information cataloguing it and cross-referencing it, comparing it in a relative, not objective way to the memories of similiar past experiences. This is just how the mind works, it's by it's very nature biased and prejudiced by everything it has ever or will ever come in contact with.
Because of this phenomena of the mind there is a problem when we try to adapt methods that on the surface seem as though they should have a predictable influence on humans and their human nature. No two humans will be influenced in the same way. No two humans will perceive the 'method' in the same way. It's just not possible to come up with any kind of 'modifer' for human nature that will work predictably or universally. Nature is dynamic, constantly evolving, adapting, and growing more complex with every supernova and human experience. Any kind of static equation, formula, or hard-coded algorythm that is designed to modify human nature in some way is doomed to failure. Why? Because no sooner has the equation, formula or code been devised it is obsolete as the parameters of its design are inflexible and not dynamic whereas the subject of its operation is.
Nature and Human nature are in constant flux, they only remain quantifiable if viewed as a whole, interdependant and inter-related. There is a connected-ness of all things. Any attempt to compartmentalize, dissect, or otherwise isolate one facet of nature or human nature destroys the essence of it, it becomes "dead'. Nature and human nature that is "dead' takes the form of thought and memories in the human mind. They have no intrinsic reality unto themselves, they are only mental signposts that point to a bygone reality, a snapshot of reality.
In Aces High, there can never be any truly successfull method for dealing with the proclivities, whims, and desires of human's nature. There really shouldn't be any reason to try. Human nature like all things in nature must be in balance. In physics and chemisty this is known as, "The Laws of Conservation of Mass and Energy". In the human sphere, wether we know it or not, we are all at least unconsciously altruistic. The amusing thing is that simply by being selfish consciously we can be altuistic inadvertantly and unconsciously. I will give an example of this as it pertains to the game. Say player X is a Bishop, he enjoys being a Bishop because all of his friends are Bishops until one day the Bishops outnumber the other two by a large margin. Player X has a problem, he cannot score any kills, there are not enough of the enemy to satiate every Bishop's desire to score kills. Being a typical self-serving person he says good-bye to his Bishop friends and switches to Knights. Unbeknownst to him 50 other Bishops have done the same selfish thing for the same selfish reasons, all independant of one another. Suddenly, the numbers become balanced again and everyone has the same opportunity to score kills. The other two countries benefitted from 50 Bishop players acting in a totally selfish, self-serving way, unconscious altruism in action, the subtle balancing act of nature manifested in human nature.
I cannot explain to you why or even the particulars of how the arena will become naturally balanced without interference. But, I know nature, I know human nature, they are inescapable. Balance is the only reason the universe doesn't collapse in on itself and annhilate everything. Everything in nature seeks to be in a state of balance, even humans, whether they consciously 'know' it or not. You just have to have faith, patience and trust in nature.
Zazen
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Originally posted by jodgi
Severe numbers imbalance seem to hurt the game for many players (not only a minority), HTC is trying to fix something that is broken.
I don't recall seeing as many threads and posts about team imbalance as about the ENY system trying to force people to switch sides. Maybe the many players you talk about aren't that many.
How can HiTech fix something that is impossible to fix? Just because on certain unpredictable days and times, the teams are "unbalanced?" That means the game is broken? I guess the game has been broken since the beginning. And it has been a fairly successful "broken" game for a number of years now.
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Oct states:
"Moil: Since when did this become an either/or deal? You of all people should know the performance/looks of the game is continually changing and seeing renovation/improvement. I never once thought there was a tradeoff in the whineability vs. playability realm"
Lemme make a few things perfectly clear here.
Performance & looks? lets take a look at that shall we. You are probably unaware to the fact that I have sold over $7000 in computer hardware from my store to AH clients just so they can play THIS game.
I have sold more memory, vid cards & processors in the weeks leading to the release and after the release of AH2. Only to have all but two or three call and ask "what gives" my frame rate is no better here than it was in AH1, I thought you said this was good hardware. Were not talking entry level video cards here, 9600xt and 9800pro's, two 9800xt's and a bunch of 5700xt's & 5700xt Ultras.
Of course they fire up IL2 & OFP @ 1600x1200 it looks awesome then wonder why they spent all this money only to be rewared with a major let down. Then I'm standing here trying to defend the product {video card, proc & mem} and explaining that it has to be something with the game. Needless to say I feel like a fool and they {the customer} feel let down. Notice I did not say every single player in the arena, because I'm sure there's gonna be some guy to come post on here stating his frame rates are perfect with no problems what-so-ever and the game works perfect. Well if that was the case there would have never been post after post after post of all the frame rate issues.
I never stated the game wasn't improving, but to say the games appearance is now some kind of graphics miricle is absurd. I got emailed constatantly asking, "I thought DirectX9 games looked asesome" AH2 is DirectX9 right? I will let HTC answer this one, I won't go there.
Renovation? Please point out the "renovations" to me
I'm not here to put down there game, I call it as I see it.
Said it once, twice a hundred times, I, from day one have supported HTC, offered ideas, help, insight whatever. Put together one of the most sought after squads in AH, had some of the best online battles I and my squad have ever played, against some of the best, if not THE best squads the game has to offer.
For some silly reason people think I hate HTC or the game, this is so far from the truth it isn't even funny. But to be told, Get ready it's coming, gear up, tune up, post after post of "is this system good enough to run AH2?" with system spec's listed way beyond what would normally be more than enough to run this game at acceptable frame rates.
Then get in the game and see graphics that are just a tad better than AH1 AND with frame rates in the toilet, that my friend is a slap in the face. Then to top it off, be told you need to adjust this and that and check this and invest in that:mad: Needless to say, that doesn't make for happy customers.
Take a real close look at the BB's for the last two months and tell me or anyone else that the majority is "happy" ?
You've got the "pi$$ed off crowd" that's leaving or left, the "I don't really like what HTC has done" but I have to much time & $$$ invested to quit now, not to mention the friends I've made here. Then the "Your all a bunch of whiners, don't let the door hit ya on the way out, HTC can do no wrong" crowd.
The rest don't post, so we'll never know I guess.
Now this guy Kurt makes a post like this and everyone {just about everyone} says "wow, what a great post" {which it is} about the same thing I've been trying to get them to see.
It is a great post IMO
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Nice zazen nice!
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Originally posted by MOIL
Nice zazen nice!
Thanks Moil. :D
Zazen
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Originally posted by Octavius
Sorry Kurt, I have to disagree. Not the content, but how it was written. I guess I'm a minority... I would take offense if I created my own game.
So, that means that you agree with Kurt? You just don't like the tone of his letter?
Maybe Kurt should have adopted Congressional-speak by prefacing with " to my esteemed distinguish programming colleague from the great state of Texas, it would dually honorably amend that we seek satisfactorily agreements to disagree, but you may suffer the dyer consequences in all probability if you so continue on such a potentially perilous course of C++ coding, I therefore do humbly beseech you to reconsider."
Would that be more palatable?
Basically, in all probability, Kurt is pissed off and toned it down quite well, I'd say. I'm rather pissed off too, especially after investing $1200 on a new system and $400 or so bucks in dues so far on this game that is rapidly becoming, not so much fun to play anymore.
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I hope this 14hundred dollar investment that I am about to make just to play ah2. Will pay off.
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jet:
"I hope this 14hundred dollar investment that I am about to make just to play ah2. Will pay off"
Let's hope so:eek:
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[size=8]KurtVW IS MY fluff'n HERO!!![/size]
KurtVW! Your message was penned quite well, sir.
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Originally posted by MOIL
jet:
"I hope this 14hundred dollar investment that I am about to make just to play ah2. Will pay off"
Let's hope so:eek:
If it doesnt then Hitech just lost 15$. Which isnt very much. I am preety shure aceshigh. Isnt the only flight sim.
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I never stated the game wasn't improving, but to say the games appearance is now some kind of graphics miricle is absurd. I got emailed constatantly asking, "I thought DirectX9 games looked asesome" AH2 is DirectX9 right? I will let HTC answer this one, I won't go there.
Amen MOIL
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Originally posted by 4ACES
I never stated the game wasn't improving, but to say the games appearance is now some kind of graphics miricle is absurd. I got emailed constatantly asking, "I thought DirectX9 games looked asesome" AH2 is DirectX9 right? I will let HTC answer this one, I won't go there.
Amen MOIL
I am starting to say this to. If I am goign to pay 1k+ on a game. atleast he can do is upp the graphs somehow fix the bugs. I have no heart for the guys who computers cant handle it. Hey I paid money why cant you. And I am 16!. Still going to school.:eek:
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I have to do this...
I'm a very happy HTC customer, the product and support is so good I've never had reasons to feel differently.
I've tried them all, but AH is in it's own league in my view.
I have the time and the patience to see AH2 being improved over time. HTC has, over time, proved that they are able and willing to improve and expand their product.
There!
This thread just needed some happiness ;)
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kurt,
zazen.
exceptional.
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WOW, nice read!!! Only six hours old through the dead of the night and some very well thought-out posts here. You can tell how much people love this game and want to make it successfull. This thread's a keeper :).
Cya Up!
Dawg
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Very well put Kurt (Btw back from the Hurricane).
I agree that in all games that allows you to choose your side you will never find balance. It did not happen in AW, WB, and has not happened in WWIIonline where there are only two sides.
There will always be a side with more and side with less. Most nights except for sunday the sides are relatively close and the worst of that happens with the ENY thing is that the top planes are turned off.
However, I think the new ideas are going a little bit too far. We already have:
- Reduce cost of perk planes
- Restriction of ENY planes as the the number spread increases
- FHs, BHs, VH at fields rebuild in 15 minutes
- Barracks stay down for 2 hours and can be killed by 1 250 lb bomb.
- Fuel being harden (or the fuel damage forumula changed) so that it can't be taken down under 75%.
And now you want to add on an increasing ack lethality and building toughness. It is already incredibly difficult to wage an offensive operation put these two in place and you make it more difficult.
And yes, I know there are those who say that this is a flight sim and it is all about dog fighting. Well gentlemen there has never been a case except in World War I that it was purely about dog fighting. Air power and air craft were always used and are still used in conjunction of waging war and either seizing territory, denying the enemy from seizing territory or attacking tactical and strategic targets and infrastructure.
Without a purpose of focus basically you are left with just furballing. Yes, its fun but after a while without a purpose for squad operations the game becomes stale and pointless. Remember even in FPS there is capture the flag (which basically the base capture and reset here is a much expanded version of) and they too have goals (most kills in a set period of time wins).
Basically I these tweaks are more and more removing the focus of the game. I do not believe they are encouraging side balancing. And as I have said and have shown by tracking before most nights you don't have a huge imbalance. On sundays you do.
For the simple reason that many squads and many people have sunday night as their squad night. Friday nights quite a few don't fly because of other events like FSO. Plus Friday and Saturday night wives and girlfriends want to do things .. sunday night is clear for many of us logging on and spending 3 hours flying.
Also stop and think for a second. The bishops and knights are able to field 15-170 pilots at times on weeknights. On sunday they don't .. on monday they do. Its a conscious decision to avoid sundays. Programming code will not change this in a major way. You are dealing with human behavior here and can not program people to behave differently.
You can however, keep putting things in place that will end up driving people away from the game.
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Originally posted by jetb123
I am starting to say this to. If I am goign to pay 1k+ on a game. atleast he can do is upp the graphs somehow fix the bugs. I have no heart for the guys who computers cant handle it. Hey I paid money why cant you. And I am 16!. Still going to school.:eek:
Ahh yes, to be 16 with no wife or kids AND no bills.:D
You still live with your parent(s), you have no bills. Think it
thru.
Dude, ya gotta look at the big picture not just a few pixles.
SCDR
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Sounds like I'm not missing much these days.
...-Gixer
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<------Gives up and starts sleeping in the hip waders. Too much trouble taking em off and on.
Sidenote: HT , please do not harden targets any further. Were in the Twilight Zone now IMO.
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Well, two Nightmares have quit since Sunday when the ENY values got up around 30. Not good! Our private forum banter is reminiscent of those dark days in 2001 when we rode the Air Warrior ship into the murky depths. There is one difference here. Air Warrior was a throw-away for EA, they didn't have a vested interest, and didn't depend on this game exclusively. HiTech does, and he will address these issues :).
Cya Up!
Dawg
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After thinking about it, your right, HT is coding for the unskilled. I originally thought this idea was absurd but now I see I was wrong.
HT is giving incentives for players to change to the underdogs, which by all accounts is how Rooks acquired their superb range of skills from above average teamwork and communications right through to their superb SA and gunnery skills. So instead of just flying around in a big unskilled blob, players are being encouraged to develop their skills with the underdogs.
If they decline this invitation, they and 150 of their like minded chums find they cant fly the 1945 wonder planes which can just climb or run away if they find themselves in trouble. They now have to learn new skills and adapt to flying planes that aren’t at the pinnacle of 1945 engineering.
Alternatively, this might be all wrong, and that HT thinks games are more fun with even numbers.
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Originally posted by Octavius
Sorry Kurt, I have to disagree. Not the content, but how it was written. I guess I'm a minority...
Maybe. Maybe not. ;)
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Originally posted by ghostdancer
And yes, I know there are those who say that this is a flight sim and it is all about dog fighting. Well gentlemen there has never been a case except in World War I that it was purely about dog fighting.
Actually strategic bombing got its start in WWI. Its a pretty long strech to say it was a pure dogfight environment. The Germans dropped a lot of little bombs on London in the late years of that war and the British paid them back in kind.
In WWI, the Germans developed the doctrine of bombing civilian targets instead of military ones because it had a greater effect on Allied morale. And before you say "Oh those dastardly Germans", let me remind you that the Brits were also impressed with the results and adoped the same tactics. Tactics that would be perfected in the next war and lead to a sky full of B17 over many German cities 25 years later in WWII.
The bombs of the day were wildly inaccurate, and rather small. They really didn't get a high casualty count. But the psychological effect was huge. The German Zepplins could fly safely at night, but the British fighters could not. The Zepplins came in under darkness and terrified the British civilians with these bombs.
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quote:Originally posted by Octavius
Sorry Kurt, I have to disagree. Not the content, but how it was written. I guess I'm a minority...
Originally posted by Arlo
Maybe. Maybe not. ;)
I found it was kind of patronising, but maybe that's just me also
"step away from the Keyboard Hitech , stop that tinkering"
sheesh
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Originally posted by Zazen13
In advance I would just like to say the following mini-essay I am writing on 'Natural Balance' is all Kurt's fault! All my friends know not to start talking philosophy with me because they have to slap me to shut me up. ;)
What is Nature? Nature is the sum of all the parts of the universe. Nature is not divisable, nature cannot be observed piece-meal one part totally independant of another, quantum physics teaches us this. The behavior of a sub-atomic particle is sympathetically reactive to the prescence of all other particles and the various fields of energy extending around them. Not only that, but if you were to truly isolate a sub-atmoic particle you still could not observe it in its 'true' state, the mere prescence of the observer alters its properties and behavior.
This is how nature works microcosmically. Nature obeys laws that pervade every facet of its manifestation. Evidence of this is found on the macrocosmic level. There is remarkable similiarity between the behavior of galaxies, solar systems and atoms. The reasons are obvious, they are all acted upon by the same fields of force (gravity, weak and strong electrical force, and magnetic fields). Einstein believed in the Unified field theory a theory that would reconcile these forces into one all pervasive force that could predict the behavior of everything in the known universe from super-string formations of galaxies to the tiniest sub-atomic particle. I also believe this exists, but we're missing a 5th field of force that is hitherto unknown, or I should more correctly say, un-quantified.
How does this effect Aces High? Well, suprisingly the answer is quite simple. Aces High is a contrivance borne by technology and innovation. The program has no dynamic nature in and of itself. The program can be perfect in every way, no bugs, everything modelled completely true to the laws of physics and operate at maximum temporal efficiency (no server/client lag). However, add human beings to the program and immediately, the ability to predict outcomes is annhialated. Humans, like the program and everything else in the physical universe are bound by laws. Human Nature, on an individual level is HIGHLY unpredicatable, no two humans perceive the exact same event in the exact same way, ever! How can this be? It happens because there is no true objectivity. Like the isloated sub-atomic particle that behaves differently just because it is being observed, humans behave differently because of one main factor, memory. Memory is a function of evolution that allows us to learn from mistakes, this enhances survival. Memory as it relates to experience super-imposes itself upon all sensory information cataloguing it and cross-referencing it, comparing it in a relative, not objective way to the memories of similiar past experiences. This is just how the mind works, it's by it's very nature biased and prejudiced by everything it has ever or will ever come in contact with.
Because of this phenomena of the mind there is a problem when we try to adapt methods that on the surface seem as though they should have a predictable influence on humans and their human nature. No two humans will be influenced in the same way. No two humans will perceive the 'method' in the same way. It's just not possible to come up with any kind of 'modifer' for human nature that will work predictably or universally. Nature is dynamic, constantly evolving, adapting, and growing more complex with every supernova and human experience. Any kind of static equation, formula, or hard-coded algorythm that is designed to modify human nature in some way is doomed to failure. Why? Because no sooner has the equation, formula or code been devised it is obsolete as the parameters of its design are inflexible and not dynamic whereas the subject of its operation is.
Nature and Human nature are in constant flux, they only remain quantifiable if viewed as a whole, interdependant and inter-related. There is a connected-ness of all things. Any attempt to compartmentalize, dissect, or otherwise isolate one facet of nature or human nature destroys the essence of it, it becomes "dead'. Nature and human nature that is "dead' takes the form of thought and memories in the human mind. They have no intrinsic reality unto themselves, they are only mental signposts that point to a bygone reality, a snapshot of reality.
In Aces High, there can never be any truly successfull method for dealing with the proclivities, whims, and desires of human's nature. There really shouldn't be any reason to try. Human nature like all things in nature must be in balance. In physics and chemisty this is known as, "The Laws of Conservation of Mass and Energy". In the human sphere, wether we know it or not, we are all at least unconsciously altruistic. The amusing thing is that simply by being selfish consciously we can be altuistic inadvertantly and unconsciously. I will give an example of this as it pertains to the game. Say player X is a Bishop, he enjoys being a Bishop because all of his friends are Bishops until one day the Bishops outnumber the other two by a large margin. Player X has a problem, he cannot score any kills, there are not enough of the enemy to satiate every Bishop's desire to score kills. Being a typical self-serving person he says good-bye to his Bishop friends and switches to Knights. Unbeknownst to him 50 other Bishops have done the same selfish thing for the same selfish reasons, all independant of one another. Suddenly, the numbers become balanced again and everyone has the same opportunity to score kills. The other two countries benefitted from 50 Bishop players acting in a totally selfish, self-serving way, unconscious altruism in action, the subtle balancing act of nature manifested in human nature.
I cannot explain to you why or even the particulars of how the arena will become naturally balanced without interference. But, I know nature, I know human nature, they are inescapable. Balance is the only reason the universe doesn't collapse in on itself and annhilate everything. Everything in nature seeks to be in a state of balance, even humans, whether they consciously 'know' it or not. You just have to have faith, patience and trust in nature.
Zazen
SLAP !!! ... SLAP !!! ... now SHUT UP !!!
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Originally posted by SlapShot
SLAP !!! ... SLAP !!! ... now SHUT UP !!!
lol , least I found my cure for insomnia , got 1/4 the way through that
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I can't speak for HTC, but if this were my company and someone posted what KurtVW just did, I'd find it insulting and condescending.
Just saying.
-- Todd/Leviathn
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Good stuff Kurt.
I hope they read it.
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lol Redd - I got as far as 'What is nature?' and suddenly lost the will to live.
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Originally posted by Chortle
lol Redd - I got as far as 'What is nature?' and suddenly lost the will to live.
Zaz writes books for his own pleasure , I think he should publish them and rid the world of the terrible abuse of prescription sleeping pills.
Doctor to patient " Read these two books and call me in the morning" ;)
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I find it funny how just after the Rooks reset with the Eny thing and the numbers people are still crying about it being too hard to play offensively.
I didn't care about the hordes, I don't care about this ENY thing, and I could care less if it took more bombs to kill things. All these things mean that there is going to be more fighting, more bombing and more chances to mix it up. You guys talk of skill and then cry when HTC makes this game more challenging. I don't get that.
It seems to me many people want a game with easy base captures and little fighting with a big race to the reset. zZZZZZZzzzz.
I think anything that HTC does to put the emphasis on the fight is much needed, there are too many timid players as it is.
And you guys writing the novels zzZZZZzz you must love to hear yourself talk lol.
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Originally posted by Dead Man Flying
I can't speak for HTC, but if this were my company and someone posted what KurtVW just did, I'd find it insulting and condescending.
Just saying.
-- Todd/Leviathn
Last response from me, I gotta go to work...
The truth is insulting? People make their own decision to be insulted. You can't ram it down their throats. I am sure that HiTech is mature enough to read my thoughts at face value.
Condescending? As in - It appears I am talking down to him? I'm afraid you've simply read it in the wrong tone. I have the utmost respect. But the cold hard reality is that changes like those are going to erode the purity of the game.
I don't candy coat my thoughts much, ask my squadies... Ask my boss. I'm a technical person, not a salesman (similar to HT I suspect). I know that I respond to facts, not candy coated sweet-talk. And I deliver facts, not candy coated sweet-talk.
Sorry you were offended Todd. But you're not the recipient anyhow.
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Originally posted by SCDR
Ahh yes, to be 16 with no wife or kids AND no bills.:D
You still live with your parent(s), you have no bills. Think it
thru.
Dude, ya gotta look at the big picture not just a few pixles.
Cut the kid some slack will ya. When I was 16 it was all I could do with my $3.35/hour job to afford to put gas in my car and take my girl out for a movie and fast food. I was even supplementing my income by mowing lawns. All, as you say, without bills. I cannot imagine having been able to scrape up a grand for some computer game. Although now that I think about it I probably put that many quarters into the Ateroids machine :D
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Originally posted by mars01
I find it funny how just after the Rooks reset with the Eny thing and the numbers people are still crying about it being too hard to play offensively.
I didn't care about the hordes, I don't care about this ENY thing, and I could care less if it took more bombs to kill things. All these things mean that there is going to be more fighting, more bombing and more chances to mix it up. You guys talk of skill and then cry when HTC makes this game more challenging. I don't get that.
It seems to me many people want a game with easy base captures and little fighting with a big race to the reset. zZZZZZZzzzz.
I think anything that HTC does to put the emphasis on the fight is much needed, there are too many timid players as it is.
And you guys writing the novels zzZZZZzz you must love to hear yourself talk lol.
there's only 2 things that bug me in the game right now
lack of plane variety , and the heavy usage of the same 4 late war planes
too much overall timidness/lack of fighting in the arenas
I don't blame HTC for either of them, it's the player base that makes those choices
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I love how people assume that HiTech buckles under pressure.
How long has HT and Pyro been doing this ? Does anybody else that participates in this forum have the skill and experience that these (HTC) guys have in the Air Sim MMOG business ? If not, then what makes you think that you can advise these guys on what is best for their game and their business.
I too am a software developer and I wouldn't, for a second, be presumptious enough to tell HiTech how or what to do with his code/game. If he was writing a web-based java Expense Reporting System, then I would probably have some good input, but just because I too write code, does not make me an expert in writing a game.
Have any of you ever met HiTech ? I did at last years con, and I had the pleasure of talking with him for an extended period of time on multiple occasions.
What I took from these conversations is that HiTech has the perfect character makeup for this business. His coding abilities speak for themselves but at the same time, he is confident, arrogant, and at the same time "all ears".
I don't think for one second that HiTech and HTC make any changes on a "whim" or bend over to appease the so-called "whiners". If anything, I would think that "whiners" turn HiTech off. I believe, if HiTech makes a change, then he himself has to be really convinced that the change is needed.
Now, HiTech can, and maybe back out this ENY disabler, but that too would only come about if he is totally convinced that it needs to be changed. It won't be because the "whiners" against the ENY disabler have swayed him. It will be because he thinks it's right.
I am with Oct and Arlo ... the orginal post is condecending, insulting, and smacks of "I know your business better than you".
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Originally posted by SlapShot
How long has HT and Pyro been doing this ? Does anybody else that participates in this forum have the skill and experience that these (HTC) guys have in the Air Sim MMOG business ? If not, then what makes you think that you can advise these guys on what is best for their game and their business.
Dang it, one more..
Look, they are successful because their ears and eyes are open. They clearly do listen to the customers opinion.
Sorry YOU don't like my tone of voice. Its my thoughts submitted for all to have a look at.
"Telling them how to run their business"?
Telling them my thoughts on it. Nothing more.
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Deleted for flame.
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Excellent posts kurt and MOIL!
MOIL,
I find myself thinking the same thing repeatedly as I stare at a nearly-complete pile of new computer parts. AH2, from a playability stand-point, is almost not playable. The processor load is far too high, and the graphics aren't any better than the original. Many moons ago HT spoke of full-blown particle effects, bridges, searchlights, flares, dynamic lighting, and many other "neat stuff" features we would eventually be playing with. "Eventually" being the key word. With Il-2, OFP, UT2k4, and many others readily surpassing AH2 in the visuals and load departments, it makes one wonder. The AH processor load didn't blow up until AH2 came along. I remember many Betas where it was unplayable because even guys on hot-rod rigs were getting 2FPS. It hasn't improved much since then.
Thus far my new computer investment totals some $1,700 with another couple hundred left to spend. This is for a completely new rig from the mouse up. And it won't be seeing AH2. AH, as a game, is very stagnet. The gameplay and graphics have hardly changed in the past six years. Most of the concepts and gameplay extras like strat haven't changed in functionality since WB 2. The only things new AH2 has is the interface, prettier planes, and an FR in the basement from a terrible CPU load. Neither AH nor AH2 are all that hard on graphics cards. What's worse, it's over a year behind schedule. There are definite advantages to having a small shop, but there are also signs when it needs to expand. Adding a second programmer would speed things up considerably. Three years ago, AH was small enough that a sole programmer (HT) could handle and implement everything in a semi-timely manner. With ToD on the "what if" list, a slew of additions that are (still) not implemented yet, and the sheer size AH2 has grown to, more attention is needed than a single person can give it.
-----------------------
Flakbait [Delta6]
(http://www.wa-net.com/~delta6/sig/geek.gif)
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Originally posted by Redd
lol , least I found my cure for insomnia , got 1/4 the way through that
There is some great medication out there that treats Adult Onset of Attention Deficit Disorder. Talk to your physician about it. ;)
Zazen
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I just want to say I agree with everything Kurt says,well done Kurt.
:aok
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Originally posted by ghostdancer
Also stop and think for a second. The bishops and knights are able to field 15-170 pilots at times on weeknights. On sunday they don't .. on monday they do. Its a conscious decision to avoid sundays. Programming code will not change this in a major way. You are dealing with human behavior here and can not program people to behave differently.
You can however, keep putting things in place that will end up driving people away from the game.
Exactly Ghost, this is the core of the truth of it. How this is not plainly obvious to HTC is incomprehensible.
Zazen
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Nice post Kurt.
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Exactly Ghost, this is the core of the truth of it. How this is not plainly obvious to HTC is incomprehensible.
Zazen, I must admit to having a grudging respect for you but replies like that dont do you any favours. You seem to relish in the English language yet make clearly antagonistic remarks directed at HT, in support of whatever point your making at the time.
Those of us without Zen like inner calm are likely to interpret this post simply as HTC are idiots.
Anyway, my advice is give it time. The fact that bish/nits are not showing up on Sundays to be willing targets is to me the most damning example of un-even sides ruining peoples fun. If nothing were changed, maybe these same bish/nits would eventually cancel their accounts. That cant be good.
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Originally posted by SlapShot
I am with Oct and Arlo ... the orginal post is condecending, insulting, and smacks of "I know your business better than you".
Kurt is just stating the facts as he sees it. Just about everyone on this thread agrees with those facts.
How you read "condescending... I know your business better than you" from the original post is your added interpretation. The author of the original post did not write any of those words.
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I have no heart for the guys who computers cant handle it. Hey I paid money why cant you. And I am 16!. Still going to school.
I know this was pretty far back in the thread but IMOP that was a pretty ignerant thing to say Jetb.
I did manage to scrape togeather the money to upgrade enuf to be able to play AH2 but I do feel for the guys who have trouble geting the cash. I have a wife and 4 kids the oldest is in 1st grade and the second just started school, so theres the money out for their school things and not to mention the other bills that come with being an adult .
I'm shure I've said some dumb things when I was a teen, well hell I've said some things I'm not proud of even after I moved out on my own as I'm shure we all have from time to time.
I guess what it all comes down to is think about things some befor you say them or type them as the case may be and maybe when you get a wife and kids and the responsibilities that come with them you will find your heart.
Jet I think your a good guy, Ive flown with you from time to time so I hope you don't take this as a flame I'm just trying to give some advice so no hard fealings I hope.
Well sorry guys I wasn't trying to hijack the thread I just felt strongly about this and had to unload.
See ya in the air.
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Originally posted by Chortle
Anyway, my advice is give it time. The fact that bish/nits are not showing up on Sundays to be willing targets is to me the most damning example of un-even sides ruining peoples fun. If nothing were changed, maybe these same bish/nits would eventually cancel their accounts. That cant be good.
If they 'showed up' on Sundays like they did the other 6 nights of the week. There would not BE uneven sides...That's the entire point...
Zazen
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Originally posted by Chortle
Those of us without Zen like inner calm are likely to interpret this post simply as HTC are idiots.
If that is the implication anyone is getting I apologize. I never intended to insinuate that HiTech or anyone else at HTC are idiots. I pay $30 a month for this product and for the most part love it immensely, so much so that I consistantly spend the vast majority of my disposable free-time enjoying it. Aces High is HiTech's brain child. If I thought he or anyone else at HTC was an idiot, I would be a bigger idiot for sending them my money.
It is because I love this genre and this product so much that I care enough to take the time to post the way I do. I don't just come up with crap off the top of my head, this should be obvious. I expend alot of time and energy really, honestly thinking about how Aces High could improve and evaluating the complex ramifications of any design/gameplay changes made. It is only after much contemplation do I articulate my thoughts, ideas and concerns on these boards. I don't do it for some hidden agenda, I do it out of respect and admiration for HTC, Aces High, and the community I have come to love and be an integral part of over many years.
Zazen
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KrutVW: Your premiss is correct that AH is all about skill. But your conclusions are out in left field.
The ENY system does exactly the oposit of what you claim. It makes AH a game of skill. Skill is the ablity to win on an equal footing. How much skill is it to win when you have more players?
The ENY system makes the playing field level for game play items that are completely out of the smaller countries control. If a country has overwhellming numbers there is no amout of skill that the small country can counter with.
Ghostdance: You are correct you can not change peoples behavior, but you can deffinatly change the outcome of that behavior.
As an example some people always want and edge when fighting. This is a behavior you can not change. What you can change is how that behavior effects things. I.E. Instead of making it an advantge flying with the biggest numbers, you make it an advantge ot fly with the lesser side. This than creates a force which will tend to balance things out. Note I didn't change anyone, just the outcome.
People have so many alternatives to make this a better game. But instead of realy thinking about what will make it more fun for everyone, they tend to just want there little piece of the pie. This desire for there little piece tends to be what we call "Whinning".
Has anyone here ever put forth an argument that unequal numbers in the arena is a good thing? I could be mistaken but I do not belive that is the case. Please take a step back an look at the bigger picture. If people had been doing more of this, there would have been no need to implement the ENY. If they step back they would relise, having unbalanced sides is realy not that much fun anyone.
Some post never siece to amaze me at the length people will go to support a position. The premiss of KurtVWs argument is that having unbalanced sides is realy all about increasing a pure "Skill" game. Does anyone else besides me see the absurdity of that arguement.
People have choices to make things more fun for everyone.
1. Squads could choose a different night to fly.
2. Squads could talk to squads in the smaller country to get them to fly the same night as they did.
3. They could change countries.
4. They could view things as a challange to win with lesser aircraft.
Wouldn't life be great if people started to try make things better instead spending there time thinking about new arguements to suport there view point that realy does tend to be unjustified?
Because to date almost all post on this subject can be sumbed up.
"I want to fly my plane, for my country any time I feel like it" with out the least thought as to how that effects things.
HiTech
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Originally posted by peterg2
Kurt is just stating the facts as he sees it. Just about everyone on this thread agrees with those facts.
How you read "condescending... I know your business better than you" from the original post is your added interpretation. The author of the original post did not write any of those words.
well enough people think it comes across that way - so it there's a fair chance it does. He may not have meant to come across like that, but he does. .
Telling HT to "step away from the keyboard " and " " stop tinkering" as examples of words used relay a certain attitude.
The whole thing is another ENY whine of which their are plenty of threads already to choose from.
read it again
Entry: tinker
Function: verb
Definition: fiddle
Synonyms: boggle, dabble, doodle, fix, mess, mess about, mess with, monkey, monkey with, muck about, niggle, play, play with, potchky, potter, puddle, putter, repair, take apart, toy, trifle with
Source: Roget's New Millennium™ Thesaurus, First Edition (v 1.0.5)
Copyright © 2004 by Lexico Publishing Group, LLC. All rights reserved
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Originally posted by hitech
Because to date almost all post on this subject can be sumbed up.
"I want to fly my plane, for my country any time I feel like it" with out the least thought as to how that effects things.
HiTech
I couldn't agree more.
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what the hell is going on here?
we bickering amounst ourselves already?
Kurt had a good point, if a little rudely stated
im sure Zazen did too, had i been bothered to read it..
HTC are doing fine
some guys deffend HTC, some attack them.
its all the same to me.
we all keep playing.
Great game, could be improved.
I do agree that the whines R' us crew shouldnt be considered the majority of participants.
HTC: time for a few ritual beheadings to set an example, then you shall have the people back under control :p
Batfink
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Originally posted by hitech
Has anyone here ever put forth an argument that unequal numbers in the arena is a good thing? I could be mistaken but I do not belive that is the case. Please take a step back an look at the bigger picture. If people had been doing more of this, there would have been no need to implement the ENY. If they step back they would relise, having unbalanced sides is realy not that much fun anyone.
Actually HiTech, myself and most others actually enjoy being outnumbered. I wouldn't leave my squadron or my friends to enjoy the outnumbered situation (I do however switch to KNights when they are outnumbered using my wife's account to enjoy the situation). But, from a fighter pilot's point of view, being outnumbered is the 'ideal' situation in terms of the most action/fun per unit time. I usually do not fly a fighter on Sundays because it isn't fun. It takes twice as long to get kills and the kills you get are of 'low quality'. It is this very fact I cited as an example in my "Nature" essay above. Having numbers does not equate to 'more fun' nor does having less numbers equate to having 'less fun'. Certainly more numbers aids in your country's potential to reset the map, but that in and of itself is not necessarily fun.
You have said several times that the most fun for the most people is your goal. I think the fundamental error in your premise is that this requires equal numbers on all sides virtually all the time (except when MA pop. is less than 140). That is just not the case. Sometimes having numbers is fun, usually being moderately outnumbered is more fun, variety and unpredicatablity is always fun.
Zazen
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usually being moderately outnumbered is more fun
Eny dosn't kick in until things are more than moderately out of balance, and you also say sundays are not fun. But if you note sunday is what started the current rash of discusions. The points at which it kicks in can be easly adjusted. So what is your definition of "Moderately".
HiTech
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Actually HiTech, myself and most others actually enjoy being outnumbered.
Thats a stretch saying "most", but for those that can deal with being outnumbered ... it eventually reaches a point of diminishing returns, and for the most part, it reached that point on a continual basis for some.
But, from a fighter pilot's point of view, being outnumbered is the 'ideal' situation in terms of the most action/fun per unit time.
Yes .. and then it reaches a point of diminishing returns and for the most part, it reached that point on a continual basis for some.
Having numbers does not equate to 'more fun' nor does having less numbers equate to having 'less fun'. Certainly more numbers aids in your country's potential to reset the map, but that in and of itself is not necessarily fun.
Having numbers DOES equate to "more fun" by the majority of the MA population. Most hide amongst and in the mass of the horde picking off those who are engaged in a 5 v 1 or greater and relish in their glory of a kill well earned.
Having less numbers and being overwhelmed DOES equate to having "less fun", even for those that do like to take on multiple bandits, but then it reaches a point of diminishing returns and the fun is gone.
Certainly more numbers aids in your country's potential to reset the map, but that in and of itself is not necessarily fun.
It is for the majority of the MA population. Winning the reset is the ultimate goal ... it's what they live for ... the holy grail of 25 perks.
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Has there already been a squad naming themselves : 'Whiners 'r us'?
If not it would be a DAMN good idea. And please turn killshooter off, for that one particular squad. As they will never agree with one another they can fight it out between themselves. Would be fun.
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Originally posted by KurtVW
Whiners really need to get over it,,,
Your post was also a whine. Speaking of "getting over it"... ;)
Originally posted by KurtVW
We are in a skill based game, those without skill will never be happy. You can't code skill for them.
This change is about numbers, not skill.
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Originally posted by hitech
If a country has overwhellming numbers there is no amout of skill that the small country can counter with.
Sounds like you just shot yourself in the foot. The Rooks will still win with overwhellming numbers of p47s.
Maybe the solution is the simple one used in H2H games.
"Hey, would 3 of you guys switch to even up the sides!"
(Boing to the forehead!)
Just have a programmed announcement. "Hey, would x number of guys please switch to y team!" Seems simple enough to me.
One line of text characters in RED popping up in the chat window would do it.
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Zazen, I must admit to having a grudging respect for you but replies like that dont do you any favours. You seem to relish in the English language yet make clearly antagonistic remarks directed at HT, in support of whatever point your making at the time.
Zazen is a paying customer like myself, ghostH and many many others..
In fact look at the dates registered we have been paying for a long time.. and yet people with 3 months onboard are yapping to us to say nothing..What we are not allowed to disagree with where the game is going.. (I like the perk system, if you refine it; it will work..see below**)
If I received feedback as a business owner whether good or bad i would appreciate it.. Some companies even pay other companies to get the info HTC gets for near nothing on these boards.. count your blessings..
so minor dissent or antagonism should not be censored.. (as long as its not malicious)(like the good ole days when someone {I think pongo if incorrect sorry pongo..} tore HT a new one ingame with foul words etc.. "your game sucks bleep bleep you bleeping suck " I made the fatal mistake of typing over channel 1 at the time "yak pilot fight dont hide in your ack.." HT most likely pissed from the other guys comments then snapped at me..forget exact words but it was good though.. I think to myself oh boo hoo.. some people are more hard shelled than others but hey life goes on..
Now back on topic after brief history lesson..
This game is great.. Some people want it to stay great or even improve...
Dont take someones minor dissent as the apocolypse.. Thats is all.....
DoctorYo
** Docs advice.. Reset perks every month (possibly carry over 5-10 perks if the whine is unbearable but my suggestion is a fresh start put them at zero every month..)
The purpose of perks was to balance the game. At least thats what it was originally.. use the system.. its still not being used to its potential..
perk all late war monsters.. maybe 1pt each this is where the refinement comes in.. BB poll or ingame poll.. Rock the vote.. let your customers decide.. what the planes should cost.. if anything.. I mean 1 perk is freaking nothing.. Refinement thru imput from your customers is key here..
Use the current variable system with unblancing numbers going up the cost goes up.. this is a good system just not refined.. yet... :)
This way people have choice as opposed to blacking out planes.. yeah you can fly it but you have to pay, some more than others.. dont like your costs goto another country..
no one wants their early-war/ early-midwar planes as unflyable so never do it..(never make any aircraft unflyable unless la7 factory is implemented etc..) Just make them cost more (at least the really good midwar planes and there are some; exp Spit9) if the one side gets the horde..
(though some planes should never have cost..) again poll it let your customers decide.. and post the votes for all to see...
Things like 163 comet (originally designed to stop hq raids should be exempted from excessive costs..) In fact you should have a hard cap on each plane that is perked so that inflation (unbalancing) doesn't not price out a team from of basic concepts of the game such as HQ defense... bombing.. etc.. Imo the p38 (just a exp many others though) should not be perked into unflyable costs.. but hey thats my opinion. lets vote on it.. others may feel different..
yourve already programed eny and perks into the game why not use what you got instead of recreating a new system.. (from programmers standpoint..) again IMO..
BTW
get in the game more.. like the good ole days.. if people are mad with you they can just shoot you down... over and over and over again.. you used to fly that silly f4u Bring it on.. and no psuedo tags we want "you have shot down Hitech.." insert superfly.. pyro.. yankee ronni.. etc..
this game is missing the fun from beta to 1-2 years of play.. Bring back the original Ogre Map.. no running on that map.. the mt everest between countires wouldn't allow it..
when was the last time HT got vulched.. shot down etc.. thats what im talking about..
Bring fun back to HTC.. get involved..
:aok
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I changed to Rooks when they were in the midst their darkest, overwhelmed hour because it didn't seem fair. It made me a better pilot.
I changed from Rooks to Knights about a week before Hitech brought up the idea of the current system because it didn't seem fair. I have to think my way around to survive Rook Sundays.
I go to the side with the least numbers if I go to the CT, because it only seems fair.
I don't have any issues at all with the current ENY system. I still shoot down others and make mistakes that get me shot down in return.
The problem is not the game; the problem is selfishness and the decline of sportsmanship.
Hitech and the HTC staff are not responsible for those who think that a fair baseball game is one where their team can have 12 players on the field and have all the best equipment. The other teams (of 9 players) have to just suck it up and play better.
Games have rules, and sometimes referees or judges, to keep the game fair. Even 12 year-olds in a game of backyard touch football will make up fair teams before the game.
We have adults here trying to justify a game where their team gets to have more players on the field (with all the same conditions) so they can run over everyone else like a mob.
Their own kids wouldn't play a touch football game like that. :)
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Originally posted by hitech
Eny dosn't kick in until things are more than moderately out of balance, and you also say sundays are not fun. But if you note sunday is what started the current rash of discusions. The points at which it kicks in can be easly adjusted. So what is your definition of "Moderately".
HiTech
That is the problem and one of the major flaws with your ENY system. Raw country numbers cannot tell you what the actual situation in the air is. How the forces are arrayed is more of a determining factor as to how moderately outnumbered a particular team is or not. For example, just because Bishops have 50 more players than either Knights or Rooks does not mean both the Knights and Rooks are in fact outnumbered. The Knights and Rooks may only be devoting a relatively small fraction of their forces to fight one another, the vast majority are opposing the Bishops. Therefore, on paper, the Knights and Rooks appear to be moderately outnumbered, but in fact it is the Bishops that are outnumbered. If the Bishops were to send their 50 surplus players to Knights and Rooks as your system is designed to 'encourage' them to do and the Knights and Rooks did not alter their relative disposition of forces the country numbers would be equal on paper. But, the Bishops would then be vastly outnumbered instead of just moderately so on two fronts and get hammered accordingly. This scenario occurs quite frequently in the MA.
The frustrating part of the ENY system for everyone is that the players, the Bishops, in my above example, know they are actually moderately outnumbered, cannot and do not switch sides in light of this fact, but are heavily penalized and fighting against odds as dictated by your ENY penalty system, also facing cheap perk planes in the process. It is this typical scenario that is the rule, not the exception in the MA, and the core reason there is so much angst about the ENY system in its current incarnation. It is my opinion that the ENY system is far too simplistic to do what you intend it to do. It does not take into account the more salient factors that weigh heavily in the determination of 'fun' as it relates to numerical balance. A simple comparison of the total populations of each country is entirely too narrow a measurement to actually determine who is outnumbered or not and to what extent, in actual fact.
Zazen
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Originally posted by hitech
Some post never siece to amaze me at the length people will go to support a position. The premiss of KurtVWs argument is that having unbalanced sides is realy all about increasing a pure "Skill" game. Does anyone else besides me see the absurdity of that arguement.
People have choices to make things more fun for everyone.
1. Squads could choose a different night to fly.
2. Squads could talk to squads in the smaller country to get them to fly the same night as they did.
3. They could change countries.
4. They could view things as a challange to win with lesser aircraft.
I think the point was that - by screwing with all the little details of the game, such as ENY-limitation, hardened targets, etc. - you're using artificial inputs to over-manage human behavior.
WITH ALL DUE RESPECT...You know, HiTech, things might've been much better had you posted a message on the BB & told us that we - the customers - need to make some of our own adjustments to compensate for the unbalanced sides. Had you placed the responsibility on the customer rather than tweek a good game, people wouldn't be so upset right now. (to my knowledge, the above quote is the first time you've actually said something) While some may not have done anything about it, others probably would have done SOMETHING to accomodate your request due to the high amount of respect that we have for you and the company of HTC. But, no, rather than let the customers figure it out for themselves, you've tweeked a great game, made it less fun.
And, now you have other tweeks in mind - all of which are still artificial band-aids that will do nothing but make the game even more frustrating? AH (just like AW, AW2 & AW3) is my hobby. But, I just don't know how long it'll be worth it if the arena becomes over-managed much longer. And, that really bums me out. :( I don't need a new hobby, but you're pushing, HT. You're pushing. :(
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** Docs advice.. Reset perks every month (possibly carry over 5-10 perks if the whine is unbearable but my suggestion is a fresh start put them at zero every month..)
This will have absolutly no impact on much of anything Doc. For the most part, the people with thousands of perks never use them. But.... They are theirs to use. They earned them. Taking them away simply wouldnt be fair.
Perk planes have basicly little impact on the bigger picture within the game. You can argue against this fact until you are blue in the face but you cant change reality. People fly them (the majority) very prudly. Only engaging with some sort of an advantage and when it is lost they do anything and everything posible to regain that advantage. More often than not this involves a retreat. What threat is that plane while it is in retreat?
Basicly, in a nut shell, perks and how people use them has a very small impact on one countrys advantage over another. I want to say almost no impact but I wont go that far.
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under the current system i agree morph but again perk the late war monsters and the whole dynamic of the game will change.. p47's and p38's and other mid wars vs g10's p51d's doras and la7's my money is on the late war bird team.. (even with lesser numbers)
perks are never used like you said.. but if they were more commoditized they would be used more frequent..
again your opinion differs from mine thats why we need a concensus of the players as a whole.. hence a vote..
DoctoryO
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Originally posted by MoRphEuS
People fly them (the majority) very prudly.
Not disagreeing with you at all but I blew about a thousand perkies in a tempest a few tours back. Got in deep, over my head, over and over. Could almost see the shock on the pilots face when I started T&Bing with Spits. Was a blast, will have to do it again sometime :D
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WELL DONE KURT, whines have run the game way too long :)
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Originally posted by TBolt A-10
or.
WITH ALL DUE RESPECT...You know, HiTech, things might've been much better had you posted a message on the BB & told us that we - the customers - need to make some of our own adjustments to compensate for the unbalanced sides. Had you placed the responsibility on the customer rather than tweek a good game, people wouldn't be so upset right now. (to my knowledge, the above quote is the first time you've actually said something) While some may not have done anything about it, others probably would have done SOMETHING to accomodate your request due to the high amount of respect that we have for you and the company of HTC. But, no, rather than let the customers figure it out for themselves, you've tweeked a great game, made it less fun.
You must have missed something. I think his original idea was to force people to wait and fly when sides were unbalanced. The limited planes based on ENY was a suggestion in that thread. This is definitely NOT the first time he has said something.
edit: Oh and if players "figured it for themselves" the eny system wouldn't even kick in. The point is that they arn't willing to. All he did was give them a little more motivation to figure it out.
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I wish I could remember where I Hitech talked about why things arent perked in the manner you mention but I hope someone does.
He puts it best most of the time. It boils down to game play imo.
There are many reasons I have stuck with AH as long as I have, and never looked back.
One of the main reasons is I am FREE to do anything I want at any time I feel like it.
I beleive it is for that very reason why most do the same as I... And stick with Aces High above all others.
Up until now, there were never any restrictions on flying any plane you wanted with the exception of a few perk rides. It is this feeling of being able to do what you want when you want that draws a large part of HTC's customer base. There are many other obvious reasons why people come to and stay with AH over other games. But right now we are only talking about one.
If you want to earn the right to fly, go to WW2OL. I know many who have made the move to ww2ol. But they play for a very different reason than I. I play for the fun of being able to furball, die, get into fights that I know I have a very poor chance of flying away from. You dont earn the right to fly in AH. You do in other games. AH caters to a different crowd. As does ww2ol for instance. Its for the above reasons/differences that I will never set foot in ww2ol. Im not knocking the game its just not my kind of game... Aces High is.
We've seen what a simple eny system can do when certain planes are disabled. How many whines it can and did create. Can you imagine what the game would be like if people burnt up all their perks and they were limited to flying... Well, who knows what would be the "base" plane here in earning initial perks but people would go nuts.
You cant take whats been available for 5 years and simply take it away... The freedom to do and fly whatever you want when ever you want. You can take that away and expect people to remain happy and with the game.
I hate to make calls on good or bad business moves on anyones company. It is none of my business what they do with their company and the choices the make. But I will say that if this system ever goes into place in the MA there would be and will be many unhappy players.
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Zazen,
I see the argument brought up repeatedly that the two lesser sides gang up on the bigger side but I have never actually seen it happen in the game. The ganging I have seen, and it usually does not occur, is the two biggest sides ganging up on the smallest side.
Why?
Simple really. The greater the numbers disparity the easier it is to get kills without dying. It doesn't matter that they have to compete with two or three other guys for each enemy, it just matters that they can do so in relative safety.
I think that basing the core of your argument on a once in a blue moon event is not setting a very strong foundation.
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"Because to date almost all post on this subject can be sumbed up.
"I want to fly my plane, for my country any time I feel like it" with out the least thought as to how that effects things.
HiTech"
Interesting that there is a problem with this.
My daughter has soccer practice, homework, school projects that I am actively involved with.
I have work, political activities, and a wife that deserves attention.
All told, there is a limited amount of time for "me" which I can expect to enjoy my version of entertainment. Of course it's about me. It's how I enjoy the comraderie of the people I've known for so many years.
Frankly, Yes, I want to fly my plane, for my country any time I feel like it. I have enough to think about outside of a "game" as to how that affects things. This is recreation, pure and simple. And it is wonderful that some want to cure all social unfairness in this "game" but I don't.
Squad nights are generally chosen based on when the most of our group can log in and fly together, sort of what a squad is about. Having made that choice, it would be nice to be able to layout a mission plan in advance, possibly apply some strategy along the way. There have been plenty of situations where a good mission is planned, coordinated, and implemented just to find that after all the planning, the eny changes the field and the planeset isn't available. Hmm, waste of time, frustrating, but let's be fair, either 20 rooks logged on or 20 bish left, either way, that's penalizing someone for somebody elses actions. Bravo.
That's not a bad thing, it's just my opinion. HT has built a good game, it's up to me to decide whether or not it satisfies my needs for my form of entertainment. I was sure hoping it was, when I left AH due to lifes little way of being entertaining on it's own, I was Rooks, Outnumberd, OutGunned and came back because it was the time of my life and I Missed It!
Shame really. The very thing I loved and enjoyed is now the reason eny exists lol too funny.
Last post from me, bout beat this horse into dog food.
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Originally posted by Edbert MOL
Not disagreeing with you at all but I blew about a thousand perkies in a tempest a few tours back. Got in deep, over my head, over and over. Could almost see the shock on the pilots face when I started T&Bing with Spits. Was a blast, will have to do it again sometime :D
Ok, and to further the point I am tryign to make is. What threat were you to the opposition around you at the time?
The answer is obvious based on...
I blew about a thousand perkies in a tempest a few tours back.
Not picking on you here, just making a point of how perks and perk planes have very little impact on the bigger picture. You died just like everyone else would in a non perked plane. The only difference is it cost you more than the others flying non perked planes.
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Originally posted by KurtVW
The truth is insulting? People make their own decision to be insulted. You can't ram it down their throats. I am sure that HiTech is mature enough to read my thoughts at face value.
[/b]
The "truth" is insulting? So when you state something like "average the complainers against your player base... see what a small percentage they are.. Stop trying to code to the lowest common denominator," you know for a fact that this average amounts to a small percentage? Really? Interesting.
You're making assumptions and pretending they are fact. You're also making assumptions about HiTech's motivations for changes and stating them as fact. This does not make them true.
Condescending? As in - It appears I am talking down to him?
[/b]
That was the impression I got from it with comments like "Please step away from the keyboard" and "Don't follow [George Lucas'] example." You spoke as if you were the authority on this subject and sprinkled your comments with warnings and orders.
And I deliver facts, not candy coated sweet-talk.
[/b]
You deliver opinions based on assumptions, not fact. Just for future reference.
Sorry you were offended Todd. But you're not the recipient anyhow.
I wasn't offended. I said that if I were in HTC's position and just read what you wrote, I would be offended and insulted.
-- Todd/Leviathn
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Originally posted by JoeBWan17
You must have missed something. I think his original idea was to force people to wait and fly when sides were unbalanced.
[/b]
over-management
This is definitely NOT the first time he has said something.
[/b]
As I don't follow everything that goes on in these boards, please show me where HT came out and said, "Hey guys...big problem...losing customers...countries are out of balance...here are my suggestions on how YOU guys can fix the problem (1, 2, 3, 4, 5...)...you have 2 weeks or else Big Daddy's gotta try his own fix."
Just as over-management is a good way to hinder a workforce, over-management is a good way to screw up a good online arena.
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Edit for flame bait.
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From HT -
People have so many alternatives to make this a better game. But instead of realy thinking about what will make it more fun for everyone, they tend to just want there little piece of the pie. This desire for there little piece tends to be what we call "Whinning".
Couldn't agree more, into this category drop -
1) Perk them so we can still fly them, but only like 4-5 perks - Translates to 'I have watermelon loads of perks but only want to risk very little, screw the newbs who haven't got any perks'
2) Why weren't people asked to changed sides -
Translates to, 'I was quite was happy with having overwhelming numbers and wouldn't have done anything to help that required independent thought.'
3) The arena would have balanced out naturally -
Obviously it WASN'T.
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Originally posted by hitech
To begin with I think side imbalencing has not been that much of a problem over the years. Only on a few occasions has things gotten out of wack.
But there have been times when the numbers have gotten far out of wack. We typicly resist any change that forces people to different sides.We typicly are more inclined to giving incentives to changing sides to the lower number country, but so far it has not been a strong enough force to always keep the sides close to balance.
Our current thought is that a country with substantialy more numbers, say in the realm of 20% more will have a time limit imposed between flights. This time would vary with the side balance.
This would have a few effects.
1. No one realy wants to wait to fly another fight, wrather than wait some will either change sides, or log off. Either has the effect of balancing the numbers.
2. The wait time will also have the effect of fewer people acctualy in the air at one time. Hence also balancing the fighting numbers.
Your thoughts?
HiTech
TBolt: My very first post on the subject does exactly what you ask.
People easly could have said , no wories HiTech a few of our squads will change sides. So please do not play monday quaterback and tell me what I should have done.
HiTech
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Edit for flaming everone.
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Originally posted by TBolt A-10
over-management
It's how it works in other games. When you log in, you join the team with less numbers. Maybe it should work that way here too. That would get rid of a lot of this "betrayal" silliness.
Drink some industrial sludge, your stomach will feel so bad you'll forget all about that headache.
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Exactly HT.
Funny how we are getting 'Why weren't we asked to change sides' comments now.
Boils down to one thing -
You shouldn't have needed to be asked. It should of been more than apparent there was a 'problem', you just chose to ignore it. Or as is more likely, were more than happy with the way things were. People weren't asked to change in the past, it was done because it was the right to do for the game.
Actually TBolt I don't think 'the community' dropped the ball, more like one part of the community was quite happy with the situation and wouldn't have done anything to change things.
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HT, while we are at it, can we have night back? I don't care if other people turn up their gamma, I thoroughly enjoyed playing during night time.
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Lev states:
"I wasn't offended. I said that if I were in HTC's position and just read what you wrote, I would be offended and insulted"
-- Todd/Leviathn
Why ?
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Originally posted by MOIL
Why ?
Because it condescends, makes assumptions about motives, assumes certain business practices, and implies some level of incompetence or at least ignorance about game design.
All from someone who thinks that an ability to program translates to an ability to design games when the two have little to do with one another.
-- Todd/Leviathn
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Originally posted by ROCrats
I have ... political activities
I want to fly my plane, for my country ...
It would be nice to be able to layout a mission plan in advance, possibly apply some strategy along the way.
1: Leave the political activities to real life.
2: It's not really a country ... you know that, right?
3: Lay out a mission plan that explains in detail to the rest of the squad how to switch sides as a group. For details, look for my simple explanation on how to format such a plan and technical detail on how to switch to a specific side in the AH FAQ thoughtfully provided at http://www.hitechcreations.com.
That ... or carry on with a heated political campaign to save "your country" from having to deal with "an unfair system" (that seems to be perceived as a direct attack on "your country").
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I have to say, implementing the ENY is a start in the right direction, but I think there may be a better way to balance out the numbers. IMO a system that worked as follows would help: Instead of limiting the planes, how about lowering the max amount of people allowed to join the side with most numbers, and increasing the max amount of players allowed on the unbalanced side. This seems a little harsh but this way people will not be able to join the side with more numbers and thus join the unbalanced side evening up the numbers.
Another Idea- Implement a system where it autosets players that are just joining into the MA to the unbalanced side untill it balances out, then have it distribute them evenly among the groups.
*Please note: im not whining I am giving ideas to actually help the game, and note these are ONLY ideas im not DEMANDING them as some people may think. Im merely giving my thoughts to what would make the game better for everyone
S!
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Originally posted by DoctorYO
Zazen is a paying customer like myself, ghostH and many many others..
In fact look at the dates registered we have been paying for a long time.. and yet people with 3 months onboard are yapping to us to say nothing..What we are not allowed to disagree with where the game is going.. (I like the perk system, if you refine it; it will work..see below**)
I see your point but seriously, it couldn’t be further from the truth. I disagree with Zazen on virtually everything I’ve ever read by him – I’ve never met him in the MA but from reading his posts, his flying style and others that fly like him, is possibly the most annoying and irritating thing I find about the MA.
I also find his post’s pompous and self-indulgent, never use 1 word where 5 long ones will do
But at the same time, I think he’s sincere. I agree with his own reply, he does love this product, he does think before he posts, he doesn’t have some hidden agenda and I think that’s great. I take cheap, sarcastic shots at him for his style, not necessarily the content.
And lastly and least importantly, I never pay attention to someone’s join date unless it’s relevant. As its an issue for you, I’ve never lasted more than about 7 or 8 months under one account, be it in the MA or on the bbs due to my own peculiar circumstances – that is chronic laziness and a spectacularly bad memory.
Yap Yap Yap!
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The ironic part of all this is the fact that WE, the community, still have the ability to make the ENY disabler a dead piece of code.
It is a binary switch that is turned on when the population becomes un-balanced according to a parameters that HT has set.
We still have the choice to try to balance the arena ourselfs, and I believe that if HT sees the effort, the parameters that turn on the ENY disabler will go up, which in effect, is turning it off.
Go ahead ... be "loyal" to your chesspiece ... it's your choice ... you will just have to fly a lesser plane when your numbers trip the switch.
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Hey moil,
I could give two ****s about your business. It has zero impact on this game. Your unhappy customers are HTC's fault?
Renovation? Please point out the "renovations" to me
I'm not here to put down there game, I call it as I see it.
Let me ask you this: At what date did you first read about, see screenshots of, or log into Aces High?
Said it once, twice a hundred times, I, from day one have supported HTC, offered ideas, help, insight whatever. Put together one of the most sought after squads in AH, had some of the best online battles I and my squad have ever played, against some of the best, if not THE best squads the game has to offer.
For some silly reason people think I hate HTC or the game, this is so far from the truth it isn't even funny.
How the hell are we supposed to interpret your rants then? You love the game, and yet you rip it left and right - any chance you get it seems - and you question why others might get that impression of you?!
Let me make this clear Moil, you cannot win this argument. Not with the post from which I've snipped these quotes. Your view is skewed and biased.
Take a real close look at the BB's for the last two months and tell me or anyone else that the majority is "happy" ?
You've got the "pi$$ed off crowd" that's leaving or left, the "I don't really like what HTC has done" but I have to much time & $$$ invested to quit now, not to mention the friends I've made here. Then the "Your all a bunch of whiners, don't let the door hit ya on the way out, HTC can do no wrong" crowd.
The rest don't post, so we'll never know I guess.
You ever stop and think how many aren't registered on the BBS? Last year I would tell 9/10 players ranting on channel 1 to register on the BBS and present their case in a more sensible fashion. Now I'm thinking that was a bad idea. All I see is yap-yap-yap by a bunch of intardnet noobs, stamping their feet without ANY clue as to the big picture. The loud, obnoxious ME ME ME crowd showed up and is attempting ot settle in. Godamnit, that was not, is not, and will not be the Aces High community. There have been some louder, more obnoxious players to venture through the game over the yeras, but the community was able to control them, or send them packing. Not likely anymore. The community is saturated with the little a-holes. Hell, one player had a rather hot tempered door-slamming good bye thread the other day. They say the community sucks? Guess what, they make up the loud minority. They've stained it. They suck.
I'm surprised more vets haven't put their foot down. Their behavior ("they" includes vets) is unacceptable and is not what this community used to be.
There, end rant. Hey I can do it too!
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Originally posted by Karnak
Zazen,
I see the argument brought up repeatedly that the two lesser sides gang up on the bigger side but I have never actually seen it happen in the game. The ganging I have seen, and it usually does not occur, is the two biggest sides ganging up on the smallest side.
Why?
Simple really. The greater the numbers disparity the easier it is to get kills without dying. It doesn't matter that they have to compete with two or three other guys for each enemy, it just matters that they can do so in relative safety.
I think that basing the core of your argument on a once in a blue moon event is not setting a very strong foundation.
That's not true. Think of the maps. All the maps have a reset corner. No matter what, the team in that corner is doomed. Eventually they will be reset. This happens whether that team is numerically superior for a protracted period or not, numbers will just forestall the inevitable. If they occupy this part of the map and are also numerically inferior the reset occurs very quickly. For some reason this is almost always the South, South-East, or East side of the maps. Almost without exception the country occupying that portion will face a much larger percentage of both the two other country's forces regardless of relative numbers.
This phenomena proves my point that the individual country numbers can be perfectly equal but the arena can still be completely out of balance if those forces are arrayed disproprtionately. Conversely, the raw country numbers can be quite disparate, but the actual arena balance can be perfect, with the forces arrayed in proportion to those numbers by the three sides. This is often seen when a country with superior numbers occupies the 'reset corner' of a map. While their raw numbers are in fact superior, they are facing a proprtionately larger contingent of enemy than either of the other two countries are individually, in effect keeping it balanced.
These examples are where the ENY system fails completely. It makes no provision for 'reset corners' or how forces are arrayed. By its very simplicty it implies an exactly equal and proportional arraying of force, this is rarely the case. I won't even mention the fact that it assumes all those logged into the game for a particular country are having an impact on gameplay. Often as much as 25% of those logged in for one country or another are on extended AFK, or ghost accounts that are merely logged in for clandestine purposes.
Zazen
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Originally posted by ghostdancer
Also stop and think for a second. The bishops and knights are able to field 15-170 pilots at times on weeknights. On sunday they don't .. on monday they do. Its a conscious decision to avoid sundays. Programming code will not change this in a major way. You are dealing with human behavior here and can not program people to behave differently.
The total number of participants is relatively constant. With the new system in place, most nights see the rooks with an advantage of 20 player; on Sundays, their numbers approach the sum of the Knights and Bishops.
Since the total number is relatively constant (more or less), it follows the Sunday night excess comes from one of two sources: 1) Guys who switch sides to participate in the gangbang or 2) a few rooks who can only fly one night per week.
Relatively few people are avoiding Sunday. However, I do recall (before the eny system) when I would log in disgust. With the new system in place, the fight becomes much more even in the sense that they can't simply roll over you.
GhostDancer, I am amazed by the extent you and others will go to maintain this edge. All of you have the sense of fair play found in infants: I WANT MY BOTTLE NOW!
curly
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Often as much as 25% of those logged in for one country or another are on extended AFK, or ghost accounts that are there merely logged in for clandestine purposes.
:rofl ... reach into the black hat and pull out a rabbit.
You are too much. When you make statements such as this, it only leads me to believe that all your well thought out post are typically 25% BS too.
Stop adding "fudge" to your arguments ... it only errodes your credibilty.
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HTC for trying different things.
Its very fun to switch sides because the env elevator has told you to get off on the bottom floor only to have to listen to the country you are helping whine on channel 2 about your real country being cheaters and alt monkeys and liberals and homosexuals and orcs for a few hours while you watch them fly the same way that got them in the bucket in the first place.
Some truths must be stated. This system punishes some players for flying well and rewards others for poor flying. Many people will never see this as fair or reasonable.
The problem is related to a flaw in the basic premis of the game that has always been present. It only models moral attrition not material attrition. Yet the air war in WW2 was one of material attrition much more then moral attrition.
This enhancement basically comes from the view point that the outnumberd country is likley less competent then the bigger numberd country and needs a tactical advantage in relation to thier strategic dissadvantage to have a fair fight.
It would be better to change the game so that if they are being successfull the side with the fewer players would tend to face a equitable number of enemies at a given time.
I would say that the game should be changed so that the disadvantaged country will know that thier successes will be meaningful and will increase thier countrys chance of success.
That is what bothered me the most about being in the bucket. Usually we were killingfar more then our losses yet it didnt matter. The first wave of suiciders had dragged you down and then reupped and returned by the time you had dealt with the second or third wave of suiciders.
Not a trivial solution to persue. But it really addresses the problem in my mind. Not that one country is less competent then another. But that one country is bigger then another and that automatically gives them more planes in direct realation to thier advantage in players.
If the countrys had constrained sorti rates and that number was increased for the country that is outnumbered or decreased for the country that supperior in numbers then the numbers advantage would tend to be less decisive.
I just dont think that the ENV mechanic really addresses the issue. It hides the issue. Although years ago I thought one likely solution to the numbers issue would be to allow the underdogs to fly the F86 and the Mig15...
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Zazen,
I have seen countries in all "reset corners" win resets. It is not an automatic loss. It is a disadvantage, but it can be overcome.
I've never seen the noodleula country on Mindindao(sp?) get reset though.
Originally posted by Pongo
Some truths must be stated. This system punishes some players for flying well and rewards others for poor flying. Many people will never see this as fair or reasonable.
I disagree with this. The new system is neutral in regards to skill levels.
Good points about attrition and the value of success though. I do think that this genre of game needs a refreshing of the gameplay. I would suggest someting, but I have not been able to come up with a workable solution that I like.
Oh yeah, F-86 and MiG-15, ummm, bad idea.
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No it isnt neutral. I didnt say "all" but good players are punished and bad players are rewarded. There is no way arround it.
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Originally posted by Karnak
I've never seen the noodleula country on Mindindao(sp?) get reset though.
i have, at least once.
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Originally posted by Shane
i have, at least once.
Yup, I've seen it once too. Once out of 3,422 times. It's a fortress of solitude for the most part.
Zazen
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Originally posted by Karnak
Zazen,
I have seen countries in all "reset corners" win resets. It is not an automatic loss. It is a disadvantage, but it can be overcome.
Very, very rarely. 9 times out of 10 the country in the reset corner gets reset if there is one, no matter which country it is.
Zazen
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Originally posted by Edbert MOL
Cut the kid some slack will ya. When I was 16 it was all I could do with my $3.35/hour job to afford to put gas in my car and take my girl out for a movie and fast food. I was even supplementing my income by mowing lawns. All, as you say, without bills. I cannot imagine having been able to scrape up a grand for some computer game. Although now that I think about it I probably put that many quarters into the Ateroids machine :D
:rofl I did cut him some slack. I was hopeing that he might realize
that some of us have bills and to fork out over a grand, just to
play AH2, is not really an option. Buying any upgrades, like a new
vid card might not be an option for some people either.
Asteroids?!?! Where? I wanna play!!
SCDR
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Not that this post makes any difference. Seeing that alot of people are talking. So i will just say my bit and be done with it.
I dont want to tell anyone how to run there company, its there and pretty much i am just a user of the system.
Originaly, the masses were not a problem in aces high 1. The reason why they were not a problem is because we had an ability to remove strat or other important facilitys off the enemy. One being the best example of fuel. Now aces high 2 introduced a new method of fuel management, though this mainly removed the most effective way of controling the front lines of batttle. What the direct result of this was, that all countrys had planes avialable 24/7 at 75% fuel at min. The new fuel burn rate was suppost to fix this issue, but again players had unlimted supply of air craft and numbers can run over the map.
To counter this problem, the eny value was added. Though with the some direct results.
I will just jump to the point of my whole article. By removing the ability to disable vitual enemy resources. Other options had to be investigated to stop the number of players constantly upping.
I'm a strat player and pretty much i do agree with the new system implimented into aces high, through i do agree that the reason behind the implimtation of doing it was to restore what the original strat system did. But this time, its just in an more automated process.
Hitech, its just my view on the situation can you tell me if my view is correct? or am i missing a large piece of the picture?
F6Bomber.
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Originally posted by hitech
Some post never siece to amaze me at the length people will go to support a position. The premiss of KurtVWs argument is that having unbalanced sides is realy all about increasing a pure "Skill" game. Does anyone else besides me see the absurdity of that arguement.
People have choices to make things more fun for everyone.
1. Squads could choose a different night to fly.
2. Squads could talk to squads in the smaller country to get them to fly the same night as they did.
3. They could change countries.
4. They could view things as a challange to win with lesser aircraft.
Because to date almost all post on this subject can be sumbed up.
"I want to fly my plane, for my country any time I feel like it" with out the least thought as to how that effects things.
HiTech
HiTech, if that's what you got from my post then you may not have read it in the spirit that I wrote it. I actually don't mind the ENY changes... They are a little frustrating sometimes, but its ok. I enjoy the occasional challenge of flying an early war bird with less capability.
Anyhow, later in the day I got an email from Skuzzy in response to this original post/email and after thinking about it I realized that the one true solution to the imbalance isn't a difficult code change at all...
Simply don't display the numbers per side. You see, they breed a defeatist attitude... people log in, see they are out numbered and log off... Or they see that team X is stronger so they go there...
Take the numbers out of the game altogether... Everyone will know that the fight seems tougher some nights than others, but at least they won't just think "Oh, the rook hoard again.. I'm logging off"...
Hard numbers are bad... For instance, you show the FPS in the video data.. People ***** about not getting 50 milliion FPS... Take it away and the average person won't complain till it goes under 20 fps.
Giving useless statistical information to people who improperly interpret it is the real problem here I suspect.
Think about it... Please.
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Originally posted by TBolt A-10
Edit for flaming everone.
I'm sorry, but that's a HUGE overstatement. :rolleyes: :(
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Originally posted by TBolt A-10
I'm sorry, but that's a HUGE overstatement. :rolleyes: :(
Perhaps...but, it is funny. :)
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Nice Oct
"I could give two ****s about your business. It has zero impact on this game. Your unhappy customers are HTC's fault?"
And it states I said this where?
"How the hell are we supposed to interpret your rants then? You love the game, and yet you rip it left and right - any chance you get it seems - and you question why others might get that impression of you?"
Now everything I post is a "rant" Rip left & right, you gotta be kiddin me, I don't question it any more than anyone else questions a post or chimes in with their 2cents worth
"Let me make this clear Moil, you cannot win this argument. Not with the post from which I've snipped these quotes. Your view is skewed and biased"
It's not an argument, skewed and biased to you maybe
"There have been some louder, more obnoxious players to venture through the game over the yeras, but the community was able to control them, or send them packing. Not likely anymore. The community is saturated with the little a-holes"
Give'um a good talking to and let them know just how it's going to be here!!! Not like they send any money to HTC or anything
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Kurt wins everybody esle go home.:p
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If only it were true Jetb.
I've been called a lot of things in this thread... I think my favorite was condescending...
I liked the part about programmer's of other types of programs not being qualified to make comments about gaming... That programmer clearly writes for a limited audience..
Users of a program, regardless of the program's intent are slanted to one side or another.. They want features added, or removed. Its not like gaming is unique somehow... I enjoyed his presumption that I write small code for a small user base. That was fun.
The output of that program can be statistics, video games, database... But still you have a pile of unhappy users and a pile of happy ones.
Regardless, in Todd's opinion I am not qualified to have an opinion. And as he told me that, he called ME presumptuous ... Presumes I am unqualified... then tells me.. Big Grin.
Anyhow. Thanks to those of you that support my thoughts.. HiTech will do as he pleases and Rightfully so.. It is his program. I just hope that our thoughts have influenced his future ideas... Frankly , due to the pure volume of responses, I'm sure at some level we have... And that is all that I wanted... A good discussion about where this game is headed.
I'm sorry to anyone who felt I was heavy handed in my wording... Its my character fault. But it doesn't make my ideas irrelevant.
Take care all and thanks for a spirited discussion.
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Well I think Kurt said nothing wrong. IMHO he voice alot of guys thoughts.
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Originally posted by KurtVW
Regardless, in Todd's opinion I am not qualified to have an opinion. And as he told me that, he called ME presumptuous ... Presumes I am unqualified... then tells me.. Big Grin.
[/b]
I didn't say that you were unqualified to have an opinion. You qualified your own opinion when you stated that you were a programmer as if this somehow gave you extra leverage to comment about game design issues. It does not; it gives you no more leverage than it gives me or anyone else in this thread.
Game design has been around for centuries. Some individuals designed chess and checkers, and they did this, strangely, without the help of programmers.
-- Todd/Leviathn
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Originally posted by KurtVW
If only it were true Jetb.
I'm sorry to anyone who felt I was heavy handed in my wording... Its my character fault. But it doesn't make my ideas irrelevant.
I didn'ts see any ideas in your post, there was some opinions and whines, but not really much idea at all.
you did manage to strike accord with all the other ENY whiners though - well done.
you did have some good advice though
"Whiners really need to get over it,,, Whiners are the minority."
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Redd,
For the 3rd time, I'm not on the ENY boat at all.. I don't have a problem with the ENY logic. Sometimes annoying.. Nothing more. Sometimes I like the challenge..
So if after all this you think I am feeding the ENY debate... Well, you never read my first post.
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Originally posted by KurtVW
If you continue to tinker to appease the minority you are going to destroy your game. I am a programmer myself. Not games I admit. But one thing a programmer must learn is when to stop messing with the product. Your's works fine. You will never code it to the satisfaction of everyone and the minority will forever be the loudest voice.
If you must tinker, tinker game performance, not artificial whine reduction systems. It turns out that some airplanes REALLY were better... Some Pilots REALLY were better, and one side was always outnumbered. That is the hard reality. Whiners really need to get over it,,, Whiners are the minority.
Kurt
I can read
If you aren't talking about the ENY mod , what exactly are you talkin about ?
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OK, since you are clearly too far down your own little crusade to take the time to read THE WHOLE POST... here is the part I am complaining about..
In the future, please read on your own and don't make me do the leg work... Especially if you want to call me wrong...
While what your asking for would be extreamly difficult to implement. One thing I had been thinking about over the week end is changing the hardness of all targets with the balance ratio.
And adjusting Ack lethality based on numbers.
HiTEch
Are you in favor of this change idea Redd?? I think its perposterous.
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Originally posted by KurtVW
OK, since you are clearly too far down your own little crusade to take the time to read THE WHOLE POST... here is the part I am complaining about..
In the future, please read on your own and don't make me do the leg work... Especially if you want to call me wrong...
Are you in favor of this change idea Redd?? I think its perposterous.
Kurt
My last post on this
Read back though the thread - every post in support of your "ideas" mentioned the ENY system. Where did they get that "idea" from - if not from your post.
To summarize your post without all the words
Hitech the ENY thing you did was crappy - don't do another crappy mod.
Stop messing about with your product
Just change the things that I want changing.
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WHAT? To summerize my post without the words? Thats rich... "Kurt, instead of saying what you said, I'd rather make stuff up, its more flamey"
My post was about the Hardening of Buildings and changing of ack.. and any additional artificial balance.
Thats all.
Anything more that I might say in response to your last ill-founded verbal-vomit would be called flamebait and deleted... So I guess I'll just have to laugh at your remarks in the privacy of my own home.
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Originally posted by KurtVW
WHAT? To summerize my post without the words? Thats rich... "Kurt, instead of saying what you said, I'd rather make stuff up, its more flamey"
My post was about the Hardening of Buildings and changing of ack.. and any additional artificial balance.
Thats all.
Anything more that I might say in response to your last ill-founded verbal-vomit would be called flamebait and deleted... So I guess I'll just have to laugh at your remarks in the privacy of my own home.
Actually I don't even know why I'm arguing with you, I don't really care either way about the side balancing thing in the slightest. I am just really sick of seeing people whining on the BBS about it, they are like a bunch of spoilt babies
I think it was just the tone of the original post that set me off . Anyway forget it I accept that you didn't mean to come across the way you did , I think that's genuine.
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Originally posted by Redd
Anyway forget it I accept that you didn't mean to come across the way you did , I think that's genuine.
Accepted, sleep well and take care.
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Cup of joe ?
Lights a smoke, takes a sip of coffee............sigh....... ..
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On the occasional few times I've found time to sortie lately, I was amused to realise there was even such as
device as the ENY limits...weird that I could choose another aircraft immediately. and yet was still able to enjoy the experience....
HT, damned if you do, damned if you don't eh?
Ahhhh change is such a scary thing it seems...
Tronsky
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Instead of smacking HT around for a game that HE created and YOU pay to play, can we talk about something more important like letting me fly for free every once in a while?:D
Really guys, this is just a small aspect in the scope of things. I have seen/heard most of you guys laugh and joke with each other for 3 yrs now. Now a lot, not all, of the same guys now are at each others throat over something that is not in anyone's control but HTC's. Many of you have very well thought out statements that swing me to each of your sides. Then HT chimes in strokes my fur and I'm all good again. You have to admit HT makes very valid points as do many of the statements in your posts do. However; this is a game. This is also HT's game and you choose to play or not to play. Shouldnt he have the same right to choose to "manage" his game as he see's fit? I do not necessarily agree with the changes but they are changes that I am still willing to pay my $15 to play as do you all.
What I do think is really cool is that HT allows a debate like this. What I dont like is all the flame-and-bait tactics that are still allowed to be seen. You can disagree with someone without all the crap that is on here now. Btw, this is posted after the edits by HT.
My point is, I guess, is agree to disagree without bashing the next guy. I do not want to go back and quote anyone as that would be the same flame-and-bait tactics as I have stated earlier. It is more of an overall impression given by these posts. I have the utmost respect for all you guys in here and I know that you guys will correct what "I" think is wrong. I also, do not point a finger at anyone person or group. I am only trying to point out what might be hurtful statements that really arent ment to be said.:aok
My 2 cents
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Originally posted by Karnak
Good points about attrition and the value of success though. I do think that this genre of game needs a refreshing of the gameplay. I would suggest someting, but I have not been able to come up with a workable solution that I like.
There's a good discussion of this concept going on right now here:
http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=129677
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Originaly, the masses were not a problem in aces high 1. The reason why they were not a problem is because we had an ability to remove strat or other important facilitys off the enemy. One being the best example of fuel. Now aces high 2 introduced a new method of fuel management, though this mainly removed the most effective way of controling the front lines of batttle. What the direct result of this was, that all countrys had planes avialable 24/7 at 75% fuel at min. The new fuel burn rate was suppost to fix this issue, but again players had unlimted supply of air craft and numbers can run over the map.
This would all be fine if you were not completely wrong. The masses were a problem in AHI. Fuel didn't stop the masses it stopped the fighting and defense against the masses. Kill the fuel at on base and the horde just moves to another, no solution. See all other threads on that topic.
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Any questions regarding moderation email support@hitechcreations.com
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Arlo:
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/77_1094773722_simpsons_haha.jpg)
:D
Arlo
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Has anyone here ever put forth an argument that unequal numbers in the arena is a good thing?
YES HT, UNEQUAL NUMBERS IS A GOOD THING.
New thread ensues.
Mullah
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Originally posted by MOIL
Of course they fire up IL2 & OFP @ 1600x1200 it looks awesome then wonder why they spent all this money only to be rewared with a major let down.
Apples and Oranges there buddy.....neither one of those are MMORPG
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Originally posted by sling322
Apples and Oranges there buddy.....neither one of those are MMORPG
bingo!
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Bravo, KurtVW, nicely spoken and written out of respect for the game and company.
HiTech & Co. not only have set new standards with Aces High gameplay but also with this bulletin board. To enable and sustain such candid feedback is gutsy and requires incredible balance and perspective.
Attempts like yours to help separate the wheat from the chaff are welcome interludes. Sometimes it isn't the emperor who has no clothes -- it's the tailors.
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Answering to HTs argument:
1. Squads could choose a different night to fly.
I fly when time permits.
My customers wouldnt be happy if i told them i cant work for them because I need to play Aces-High NOW because my Aces-High country has low numbers. :(
2. Squads could talk to squads in the smaller country to get them to fly the same night as they did.
Isn't that fairly hypothetical?
3. They could change countries.
If someone flys for one country for a long time he knows the people there and might not want to switch.
4. They could view things as a challange to win with lesser aircraft
Hmm - This very much depends on what you want to do. If what you want to do is already a dangerous challenge with a low eny plane then it will probably become impossible with a high eny plane!
Just as an example:
Situation:
- Enemy planes are launching heavy attacks on my countries airfield 'X' from their airfield 'Y'
- The only friendly aircraft up in the skies are defending our airfield X
My plan:
- Come in low over to the enemy base Y alone, to interrupt the wave of attacking planes by involving them in dogfights, while the friendly planes keep defending base X.
- Since I like to play as realistically as possible I also would like to survive that mission.
Problem with eny:
The only way this plan can be achieved with a 'lesser' aircraft is by flying in very high with a big E advantage and cherry picking planes from the attacking wave. (Disrupting the wave of attacking airplanes for a short time would also work coming in low alt, but chances for surviveability would be 0, no matter how good a pilot flys the lesser plane)
Coming in at high alt means that you have to climb for ages and then cherrypick - I know some people dont mind, but attacking from high altitude is not my style.
What will happen:
So I come in low with the 'lesser' aircraft (for example seafire) and attack the wave of incoming aircraft close to their base. If i am good i can maybe shoot down 2 or 3 of the 5 or 6 aircraft that now engage me, but eventually they will shoot me down since i wont be able to get out EVER with a slow plane.
Conclusion:
If only lesser aircraft are enabled, the only way to win this plan: NOT TO PLAY IT.
And this is just one example of tactics that exclusively work with low eny planes. Using a lesser plane doesnt simply make some tactics a challenge- instead it makes some tactics (especially those which are already VERY difficult&dangerous with a low eny plane) IMPOSSIBLE.
This can be very frustrating - especially for pilots who dont like to fly in hordes all the time and dont like to fly high-alt either :(
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Interesting thread (and emotions too). I fell over it whilst searching for tips to fix my AH2 frame rate dropped from max refresh of 75 in AH1 to around 40 in AH2(I am running P2.4, 512Mb RAM and 256Mb 9600XT which I bought for AH2 - that lot is about 3 x the min spec required for AH2 low level performance).
I don't think any opinion posted here is whining - it's opinion. I don't want to turn this into a 'fixes' thread but the key downers for me are lower frame rates than I would expect for good graphics on the card I have, "one-ping, no wing" damage modelling plus "dogfighting fireballs" and perhaps over-fixing the underdog aspect with ENY limits. As for increasing object hardness I really don't see the point. If a country is going down it will go down. It's not the end of the world and a reset, however disappointing, brings a refreshing new dawn (hmm getting poetic, sorry). Most of us get our enjoyment from the narrow time window we fly in - we have little control over the entire frame/reset, we take the situation we find and get on with it.
I have no probs with reducing perk costs for the losing side as it gives players a chance to fly planes they would never dream of 'buying'. Let's face it I am not going to save the world in a 262 if my skills are so poor I can't normally afford one!
But I do think there are things to adjust, particularly aircraft damage modelling. It's too arcady, primarily in cause/effect but also graphically disappointing. I think it needs to be brought to a more sophisticated and varied state. I play another sim set 'in another place', well eastern europe actually, which is harder to fly in and whose FMs and some other aspects would likely lose AH many of its followers but I think the damage modelling there would be generally the way to go.
A Tour of Duty focussed on period plane sets would reward us more historically minded simmers (I didn't claim 'good' pilot :) and it would get away from the '4 late war planes' syndrome but I expect it to create an Air Warrior type game with many in 'RR' (MA) and far fewer in 'FR' (TOD). (Look at the fallen level of support for "Squad Ops".)
I hope HT will consider all the pros and cons here - even if he discards them. We are not 'telling him how to do his job'. We are giving feedback.
Now, where's that flipping video card setup thread........
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Deleted for flame
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Deleted for flame
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my feelings are stupid?
i thought feelings were just that, feelings?
maybe i think your reply is stupid? but that would be a personal attack, right?
so many questions, so little time.
[clicking to play wwIIonline]
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Originally posted by roofer
my feelings are stupid?(10)[/size]
i thought feelings were just that, feelings? (11)[/size]
maybe i think your reply is stupid? but that would be a personal attack, right? (12)[/size]
so many questions, so little time. (13)[/size]
[clicking to play wwIIonline] (14)[/size]
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Originally posted by sling322
Apples and Oranges there buddy.....neither one of those are MMORPG
So if it's a MMORPG, then it can't have graphics above the current? Silly me:rolleyes: