Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Ohio330 on September 08, 2004, 08:22:47 AM
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This is an addendum note to KurtVW's post about not
changing this game. I totally agree with what he has to say about the fact that you are probably making a lot of the veterans
angry. I want to say that, as a newbie, I am not pleased at all
as well. Before you made the changes, I was part of that
rook horde. I found safety in numbers in order to learn this
game. As it stands now, I cannot find myself learning anything
but defensive moves.
This post is not a whine. I would like to suggest you do the following in order to appease both veterans and newbs alike.
Put the present MA back to its original configuration. Create
a new arena for newbs only (say..accounts with less than
a years time on them)
I came very close to cancelling my account last night because
I'm tired of being "lunch" for the vets. I came to a realization
last night that since I've started this account, I :
A: Walk away angry
B: Have destroyed the lift tabs on my keyboard
C: Realized I'm the sap for actually paying someone
to get me angry
D: Seriously have considered buying new equipment
to increase preformance of a game that makes me
angry
I must admit that, yes, I tend to have a short fuze while
playing, but I'm sure a lot of us newbs have considered
leaving because death "just sucks".
Please make us an arena.. thank you.
Oh ya, I only say to put the MA back to it's orig. config.
because I would gather that the imb alance was probably caused
by other newbs like me looking for saefty in numbers. I could be
wrong here, but I have noticed a lot of my vet squadies actually
LOOKING to be outnumbered..then they go out and come back with 6 or so kills. If you had a newb arena, us ppl looking for
safety would be gone and most probably balance things out.
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and what do you learn, as a noob, flying in the horde? this is exactly part of the problem. noobs fly in the horde, then they get comfy in it, and then locked into it because to actually get better they have to put their fragile egos on the line and take risks, possibly dying and screwing up their precious internalization of how good they've gotten in the horde.
wouldn't you learn faster by flying as hard as you can, pushing the envelop in various planes, dying many times in the process? not only does this help you learn the planes, it also develops your SA.
once you get good, then you move onto squad "tactics" - something that is really lacking in AH for the most part, other than a "let's all up here and go take base XXX, hopefully only 1 or 2 will defend it and we can vulch them repeatedly as we take the base. my, aren't we 9 guys so awesome?"
you can learn the bombing stuff offlilne...
what is it these days? when i first got into flight sims, i took my lumps repeatedly, as a result i got as good as i am now.
it was a simple matter to learn the bombing stuff. buildings don't move.
not directed at *you* ohio, but at noobs and so-called "vets" in general. "vets" have been very poor role models for you noobs, teaching you all sorts of lazy and shoddy habits because they've locked themselves into their little boxes.
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Perfectly put Shane.
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Right on Shane.
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I KILLED ALL THEIR BUILDINGS BUT THEY'RE STILL FLYING WHAT DO I DO?!!?
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It's ironic that you Shane, and Slapshot, had replied to this post.
You two are what I would classify as the two hardest engagements I have run across. You guys kick ass.
I have tangled with both of you once, and I remember
exactly how things went in them, never lost you in my
sights, but yet after approx. 3 turns I was toast. I can
say for sure that neither engagement has either of you
"jumped" me without me knowing about it. Both started off
as a fair merge. Being a noob, I cannot say that I "learned"
anything from these engagements except that I turned, you
turned, I died.
I am also not saying, by making a noob arena, that I
would completely avoid the MA. This is supposed to be "fun",
and it presently is not.. I think playing with people within
my skill level would be more "fun".
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I've been a bish the entire time I've playd AH (for about 2 years) Has it really been that long already??
Any way the times I remember seeing fellow bish jump sides the most is usually after being steam rolled by rooks for 2 to 3 resets and right befor that 3rd or 4th reset they jump to rook probably beacause they get tired of losing.
And don't give me the Bish just don't work togeather speach I know there are some bish that just wanna do their own thing but I'll bet that go's for all 3 sides.
I fly with the BOPs and we work togeather alot within the squad as well a cooping with other squads but from what I've seen It dosn't matter much how well you work togeather taking bases and defending them if you just don't have the man power to do both at the same time.
My advice for newbs is rather than switch sides to find safty in #s find a sizeable squad to try flying with, like the BOPs for example you don't have to join the squad to fly with us and there are usually a good # of us on at any given time and as far as I know we are all willing to help a new player.
I'm sure this would go for most squads in Bishland and Knitland am I right guys?
Sorry Rooks not to leave you out you guys probablly have great squads too but I just don't see you needing the help at the moment. :p
Anyway thats my take on the situation.
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Ohio,
The single players (not in squadrons) including the newbies are the exact target of this ENY thing.
Anyone, interested in safty can find it either in numbers or in super planes. With the ENY system, if the areana is imballanced enough, you have safty in each country - one of the flock and one in the stock. The single players are the ones who will find it easier to switch sides. switching a 20-30 players squadron is not done on a moments notice.
If the imballance is a steady thing, squadron will rotate too.
Bozon
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Originally posted by Ohio330
It's ironic that you Shane, and Slapshot, had replied to this post.
You two are what I would classify as the two hardest engagements I have run across. You guys kick ass.
I have tangled with both of you once, and I remember
exactly how things went in them, never lost you in my
sights, but yet after approx. 3 turns I was toast. I can
say for sure that neither engagement has either of you
"jumped" me without me knowing about it. Both started off
as a fair merge. Being a noob, I cannot say that I "learned"
anything from these engagements except that I turned, you
turned, I died.
I am also not saying, by making a noob arena, that I
would completely avoid the MA. This is supposed to be "fun",
and it presently is not.. I think playing with people within
my skill level would be more "fun".
Thanks for the compliment. I can't speak for Shane, but he did allude to it in his post ...
I have paid dearly to get to the skill level that I am at and I still have a long way to go.
To get to the level that I have achieved, I have died many many many times.
I have fought the best and have died many many many times.
I have watched many many many films of guys like AKAK, Leviathn, Shane and Drex over and over again.
I have read many articles on virtual dogfighting (Andy Bush).
It's a long row to hoe ... but the more I died, the more determined I became not to die.
If one does not engage and fight, then one will not get better.
It's the losses that make one better, more so than the wins. If and when you lose, sit back and think about what just happened and what did you do wrong, or what did your opponent do right.
Once you think you have figured it out, then you might know what to do right next time or what not to do wrong next time.
If you ever see Shane in the MA, ask him to go to the DA with you. He is an excellent teacher. If he says NO then call him a no-skilled dweeb after he kills you ... that will get him into the DA.
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Ohio,
I have been playing this game for about 4 years. I still take a beating and I am still learning. Its a game. Yes I get mad but only when the gamey tactics come in to play. Instead of getting mad about being shot down try to learn from it. Film your sorties to see how you got shot down and try to adjust. Flying in a horde will only bring a false confidence in your skills. What happens when you realize after playing a few years that you cant win a 1v1 engagement?
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Originally posted by Ohio330
Being a noob, I cannot say that I "learned" anything from these engagements except that I turned, you
turned, I died.
Obviously there's something more to it that that, otherwise why do you keep dying? You will only learn if you let yourself learn. That means thinking about what you did wrong, asking them what they did right etc.
You won't learn anything killing newbs, whether you want to learn or not.
Learning requires failure, but failure doesn't imply learning.
Anyway, as far as the original subject of your post... Even if your team doesn't have more numbers overall, you can make sure to take off with a bunch of greens around you if that's what you like. There's certainly no shortage of hordes, numbers or not.
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Originally posted by jamusta
Ohio,
I have been playing this game for about 4 years. I still take a beating and I am still learning. Its a game. Yes I get mad but only when the gamey tactics come in to play. Instead of getting mad about being shot down try to learn from it. Film your sorties to see how you got shot down and try to adjust. Flying in a horde will only bring a false confidence in your skills. What happens when you realize after playing a few years that you cant win a 1v1 engagement?
Like I said, I am not planning on avoiding the MA all together.
I would return to it to attempt to learn from the harder guys.
All Im asking is for a place to actually have fun, not neccessarily
learning... an alternative to the constant beating.
As it stands now, I'll use the analogy of a pro football team.
I have never played organized football. Say one day
a pro football coach comes up to me and tells me that if I pay $14.95/mo. he will start me in the Center position for every game.
I jump in and constantly get plowed on my back by a 400lb. guy.
I keep getting back up and jump back in to repeat same. After
a bit I say to myself, WTF am I doing in this league at this point, this is no fun.
I know that it takes time to learn..a lot of time. I just want an alternative arena to go to when the bruises get bad.
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you are mad because of your apparently faulty learning process, which is your responsibility.
Figure out the actual rules of the game you're trying to win (I assume), and from there you can start a reliable foundation to your way up the learning curve; it'll avoid you being misled, e.g. being discouraged etc.
i.e. if you're surprised about anything, odds are you have('had' once you smarten up) wrong expectations.
The football analogy is good except this game gives you no pain, no real penalty. Everything is as good a learning opportunity as you make it. You can lawdart and stuff good setups and have your plane splattered every which way and there is no penalty except another climbout.
When I started, in H2H 24/7 furballs, I always picked the bad odds to accelerate improvement.
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Originally posted by Ohio330
Like I said, I am not planning on avoiding the MA all together.
I would return to it to attempt to learn from the harder guys.
All Im asking is for a place to actually have fun, not neccessarily
learning... an alternative to the constant beating.
As it stands now, I'll use the analogy of a pro football team.
I have never played organized football. Say one day
a pro football coach comes up to me and tells me that if I pay $14.95/mo. he will start me in the Center position for every game.
I jump in and constantly get plowed on my back by a 400lb. guy.
I keep getting back up and jump back in to repeat same. After
a bit I say to myself, WTF am I doing in this league at this point, this is no fun.
The dictionary is the only place where success comes before work.
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I wonder how many players the community has lost over the years due to the steep learning curve? Not just AH, but AW, WW2OL and WB too. I don't think FA lost many since there's hardly any curve at all over there.
Over the years I have talked about 8 people into trying both WB and AH. None of them have active accounts today. When I first came into MMOL air-combat games (December 1995) the thorough thrashing I recieved only hardenned my will to keep trying to get my K to D up to 1:1, and that was in the days of a $200/month bill for arena time.
I'm not sure about the combination of interests, personality, lifestyle, and just plain old stubborness it takes to make someone get over that steep curve and become a longtime member of the community. But all of us in said community have an interest in making that curve easier to get over.
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just relax, everyone in the game is the same, a brain+joystick (and aimbot for a few) with a plane (and keyboard) for avatar: if they did something, so can you.
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Originally posted by Ohio330
I just want an alternative arena to go to when the bruises get bad.
Ohio try the CT then, it is a god place to be for the most part, unless the #s are low.but what I read from your post as wanting an arena for newbs is you want the easy kill ...and to be able to run a muck and post big kill sorties...you will never get to the top of your game feeding on les fortunate pile-its and in doing this and having an arena for new flyers ( under 1 year ) you make it to where they will want to quit and give up before they ever get to the BIG SHOW...so to speak....
If you don't want bruises and bumps and defeat then you need to have the WIL to want to be better, this means take some lumps and bruises as Slap and Shane pointed out and learn from them..now you posted you turned, they turned, you died...well maybe you could use a lil help in what to look for when reviewing a film / fight........most of it would probably be situational Awareness (SA), E- Management, and flying angles / gaining angles......
it is not the plane, a superior plane is whipped by an inferior plane in the MA everyday..it is the pilot, who has studied, practiced and honed his abilities to fly his plane to its maximum effectiveness while steering his opponent to do the exact opposite
train like you fight, fight like you train !
or as the Preacher says:
"Know and use all the capabilities of your airplane. If you don't, sooner
or later, some guy who does use them all will kick your ass."
Lieutenant Dave"Preacher"Pace, USN
U.S.Navy Fighter Weapons School Instructor
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Originally posted by Edbert MOL
I'm not sure about the combination of interests, personality, lifestyle, and just plain old stubborness it takes to make someone get over that steep curve and become a longtime member of the community. But all of us in said community have an interest in making that curve easier to get over.
As long as it's not done by the dumbing-down of the game (like FA), I agree.
The newb must seek the help on his own--that is, take the first step rather than saying, "This is too hard." Making the initial commitment is not tossing 15 bucks at HTC--it is the mental step of admitting failure and squelching pride until failure gradually becomes success.
The dev provides the raw tools, the boundaries & the outline--it is up to us to make the game.
Admittedly, my attitiude about this may be dinosaur-like as, like you, I have been playing these types of games for a long time.
h
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Originally posted by moot
just relax, everyone in the game is the same, a brain+joystick (and aimbot for a few) with a plane (and keyboard) for avatar: if they did something, so can you.
Your really kinda missing the point. I never said I wouldn't get any better..but as we all know, this game takes A LOT
of learning. MONTHS. I dont see how having a brain+ joystick puts me on equal terms to start. Without a noob arena I'm not
sure I'm going to have the desire to keep going. I'm sorry I even
brought up the MA in my post. This is more focused on having
a place to actually have fun for noobs
As far as this game not having pain..thats true in a physical sense. But pain equates to frustration in AH2 and slowly kills any
further desire to learn (and quit) if I'm not going to have fun for 6 mos. to a year or more I'm not sure the wait is worth it.
to a year when things might get to equal terms. I've been
in my squad for two months and have already noticed approx.
5 noobs gone. Maybe they went to another country, but I wonder if they just threw in the towel. I did a search on
them for their stats and they have nothing for this month, so I gather they gave up. With a noob arena, maybe HTC would still be collecting their 14.95.
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This is more focused on having a place to actually have fun for noobs
we do. its called the HTH
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Originally posted by vorticon
we do. its called the HTH
Hum..never really thought about HTH. Might give that a try, but
isn't that limited in numbers per room? (ya I know I'm being picky now)
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Ohio,
1.) Ask Shane and Slapshot to go to the dueling arena with you for lessons. Both are excellent teachers. You have to make this effort. Don't complain at the community. If you ask, every old hand in this community will help. YOU HAVE TO ASK FIRST.........:)
2.) When you logon or when they do, defect to the side they are on and fly with them. If you can follow Shane's LaLa through a few furballs every night for 2 camps you will get good fast.:)
3.) Take off and find every lopsided furball or engagement you can and dive in. Be aggressive and attack. Being timid will get you back in the tower.
Hiding in a hoard is fun untill Fester cherry picks you with his Me262.;)
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Originally posted by Ohio330
Hum..never really thought about HTH. Might give that a try, but
isn't that limited in numbers per room? (ya I know I'm being picky now)
yeah, 8 person per room. but if you cant survive in a 8 man (or women) furball, at the level that most in the hth have, then youve got no chance of getting anywhere in the MA.
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You want an arena with the blind leading the naked? How will this ever teach you anything?
...better than a new arena would be "newby squads". Transitional squads lead by a variety of volunteer vets and AH trainers. Something to get the newbies through the first few months.
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Originally posted by Ohio330
Like I said, I am not planning on avoiding the MA all together.
I would return to it to attempt to learn from the harder guys.
All Im asking is for a place to actually have fun, not neccessarily
learning... an alternative to the constant beating.
As it stands now, I'll use the analogy of a pro football team.
I have never played organized football. Say one day
a pro football coach comes up to me and tells me that if I pay $14.95/mo. he will start me in the Center position for every game.
I jump in and constantly get plowed on my back by a 400lb. guy.
I keep getting back up and jump back in to repeat same. After
a bit I say to myself, WTF am I doing in this league at this point, this is no fun.
I know that it takes time to learn..a lot of time. I just want an alternative arena to go to when the bruises get bad.
I take a different stance. After being constantly plowed by the 400lb guy imagine how it will feel to finally put him on his back and step on his chest. It would be well worth the beating he gave me. The more I got beat the more I wanted to beat them. IM STILL LOOKING FOR YOU KAPPA. YOUR BUTT IS MINE!!!!!
Hey wait I just noticed you are in a squad... Maybe you are in the wrong squad. Have they not tried to teach you? I am not understanding this. The vets in your squad should be trying to soothe your pain.
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Originally posted by Ohio330
Without a noob arena I'm not
sure I'm going to have the desire to keep going.
OK, I take it by "noob arena" you mean that only people who have been online for a month or less can fly there. So what happens after the month is over? You won't have learned anything, and now you are back in the MA right where you started. So instead of quitting in a week, you quit in a month.
You are asking for the impossible here. You are saying the only way you can have fun is by winning without trying. In that case, you are not going to have fun here or in any game. Noob arena or not.
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Originally posted by Furious
You want an arena with the blind leading the naked? How will this ever teach you anything?
...better than a new arena would be "newby squads". Transitional squads lead by a variety of volunteer vets and AH trainers. Something to get the newbies through the first few months.
What your implying is that I need to go to school full time. Did
YOU have fun going to school? I sure didn't. Yes, I want an
arena that you don't learn a darn thing..just wing it and land
kills with others that don't know tactics. Then also go to
school when I want to and eventually play good with the college boys.
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You will never learn in the horde. The vets will take your kills and you will never get a chance to learn deffence. What ever little I know I learned by dying a lot. I used to fly the 202 as a noob cause I did not know any better. Took me weeks to get a kill.
So, if you like, come join my plane tonight. You wont learn much but you should pick up a few things. Also, we could wing together if you like. You can learn a lot more that way. I will even change to your country for a night just so we can find Slap and teach him a lesson.:D
Again, I am no expert but not a noob either. Let me know.
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Originally posted by Ohio330
Before you made the changes, I was part of that
rook horde. I found safety in numbers in order to learn this
game. As it stands now, I cannot find myself learning anything
but defensive moves.
i am and have been a knight since begining to play, and i hate the rook hord, but one thing thats true! battleing them back has made me a better player;)
come to the underdog's side and really learn something about flying...:)
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Originally posted by Ohio330
What your implying is that I need to go to school full time. Did
YOU have fun going to school?...
Learning ACM's in flight simulators? You bet your bellybutton I've enjoyed it. I wouldn't have kept doing it for 8yrs otherwise.
....and the cool thing is as the others we play with get better, we constantly need to be learning new things. That's what holds some of our attention, the constant learning.
What you want to do can be done in CFS against the drones on easy. Why bother playing online against real people?
You know, a long time ago in a galaxy far, far away, FA (fighter ace) had arenas like you suggest. You know what happened? The folks in them got good at whopping on the newest of newbs, but not good enough to survive in the mains, so when they got to the point that they were supposed remove their training wheels and leave that arena, they would open a shades account or auger until their score was low enough to get back in.
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Salute All
original post by Shane:
once you get good, then you move onto squad "tactics" - something that is really lacking in AH for the most part, other than a "let's all up here and go take base XXX, hopefully only 1 or 2 will defend it and we can vulch them repeatedly as we take the base. my, aren't we 9 guys so awesome?"
Question :
Can you tell me how to properlly Take a base in accordance with fair play or furball guidlines? no one has ever explained it to me My empression was to knock out fighter hangers, cap base ,destroy town and drop troops which would probably take at least 9 guys?
but with new suggestions of hardning of buildings this will probably take a massive Horde...lol
Thanks Guys!:aok
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When I first started in Flight Sims (AirWarrior) the Campaigns were 3 weeks long. I died over 1000 times and got 9 kills my first camp. I have no idea why I stuck it out, but I did and I eventually started getting better. The last campaign I flew I had 1200 kills in 3 weeks.
I am not nearly as lethal in AH as I was in AirWarrior (yet) but I keep working on it.
If you really want to be good, stay in the MA, get some vets to help you with basic ACM and practice practice practice.
I agree with Furious, the learning process never ends and thats a big part of the attraction.
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phookat what's your old handle? I fought ya last night
..was fun..i know u aint a noob lol.
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Hey jaxxo... yeah, I used to be lost.
bro was fun. :)
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Originally posted by Ironblade
Salute All
original post by Shane:
once you get good, then you move onto squad "tactics" - something that is really lacking in AH for the most part, other than a "let's all up here and go take base XXX, hopefully only 1 or 2 will defend it and we can vulch them repeatedly as we take the base. my, aren't we 9 guys so awesome?"
Question :
Can you tell me how to properlly Take a base in accordance with fair play or furball guidlines? no one has ever explained it to me My empression was to knock out fighter hangers, cap base ,destroy town and drop troops which would probably take at least 9 guys?
but with new suggestions of hardning of buildings this will probably take a massive Horde...lol
Thanks Guys!:aok
Let me see ...
2 goons
3 bomber formations (take down the town)
6 heavy JABOs (rockets and bombs) (take down the VH and clean up town - help deack and cap field)
6 fighters (deack field and cap and clean up town if needed)
Total of 17 ... not what I would call a horde.
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When you die to someone good, and you don’t know how they did it...ask them what they did. Most of the time they are going to help you out. If not right then, maybe later. You will never learn anything by repeatedly dying to someone unless you ask questions, read articles people have posted and watch film. There are tons of great articles out there...not just for AH but from Airwarrior. In fact most of the good ACM articles and discussions come from AW. Flying in the horde is not going to help you at all as far as skill is concerned. It might keep you alive longer, but you won’t be learning anything.
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DAMN!!! This supposed to be about learning??? Oh well...prolly explains my current suckage...I have just been having fun. :)
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I totally agree with what he has to say about the fact that you are probably making a lot of the veterans
angry. I want to say that, as a newbie, I am not pleased at all
as well.
I just want to reply to this little snippet.
As a newbie, what do you have in terms of past experience, for comparison? I think, as a newbie, you have every right to offer your observations, but to come in here and make bold statements like that is way off base. I am a vet, and the only anger I have is directed at the loud and obnoxious portions of this community. They are a stain. (not you)
If you consider yourself a vet, and you're angry at any changes, then you're probably lying about the 'vet' tag.
Shane: not directed at *you* ohio, but at noobs and so-called "vets" in general. "vets" have been very poor role models for you noobs, teaching you all sorts of lazy and shoddy habits because they've locked themselves into their little boxes.
Dammit I couldn't agree more. I was just about to make a long winded thread entitled "Is it our fault?". Yes, it is our fault. A different kind of playerbase took over. We had an 'unwritten book', something there to guide the noobs, shape htem into fighters.
Then the newguys watching Discovery Wings came in, had NO clue how a game like this operates, and took what they saw at face value. They had NO idea that a community existed, that the art of the dogfight was indeed an art never mastered or perfected. They saw a hangar, some bombs, and a few toolsheds to blow up... they thought "Damn I'm good."
Many of the true vets have since moved on. I rarely see an old face these days. The gaps left by those players were filled with the new guys and they wrote their own unwritten book. It's wrong.
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Originally posted by Ohio330
It's ironic that you Shane, and Slapshot, had replied to this post.
You two are what I would classify as the two hardest engagements I have run across. You guys kick ass.
I have tangled with both of you once, and I remember
exactly how things went in them, never lost you in my
sights, but yet after approx. 3 turns I was toast. I can
say for sure that neither engagement has either of you
"jumped" me without me knowing about it. Both started off
as a fair merge. Being a noob, I cannot say that I "learned"
anything from these engagements except that I turned, you
turned, I died.
I am also not saying, by making a noob arena, that I
would completely avoid the MA. This is supposed to be "fun",
and it presently is not.. I think playing with people within
my skill level would be more "fun".
At this point, you should reach out to the veterans in the community and ask for training. Shane is one of the more helpful in this area and will always go to the DA if someone asks for some help.
The only way to get better is to make an effort at it.
ack-ack
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Originally posted by Ack-Ack
At this point, you should reach out to the veterans in the community and ask for training. Shane is one of the more helpful in this area and will always go to the DA if someone asks for some help.
The only way to get better is to make an effort at it.
ack-ack
The new crowd takes the path of least resistance. Inanimate objects put up less of a fight than I do :) I think *we* should be reaching out to the newguys, too. :/
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Many, many moons ago I was in the same position as you are now (we all still are in one way or another) and was flying AirWarrior on AOL.
I lucked out by joining a GREAT squad (after my first tour initiation, had to reach a certain score in one campaign, and this I accomplished my FIRST tour, after untold hours of reading, and practice) called the WidowMakers. The squad was full of many so called "vets" who would spend many an hour (MANY an hour) handing me my 'arse teaching me skills that I still use today.
I recall one night taking off again and again to fight one of my squaddies who was flying a p-38 (Goose if I recall, possibly GMM1). I was amazed that I couldn't even get a decent shot off on 'em, even though I was flying a spitIX, and thought it the superior of the two planes. After probably two dozen deaths, (i never DID kill him) I had to re-evaluate what I was doing, and studied that film over and over offline. It made me better.
We had a GREAT female pilot in the squad named Yuri, and I only had the plesure of killing her twice in the two years I flew with her. She would take many of us "nwbies" and vets also if I recall correctly, and we would train for hours on end, then all would meet up in the WM Chat room and discuss what we had just trained on/learned. The night when Yuri and another squaddie (Desslock I think, +WM32) jumped me with alt and I BEAT them in a 2 on 1 I had really thought I had finally "arrived".
One of the ways I would learn would be by switching sides, and fighting these "uber" pilots we had in the squad, and getting my butt shot down over and over. Consider it a challenge, and when they kill you quick, ask them how they did it, or film it. You will not learn much flying in a horde, and surrounding yourself with other "new" pilots.
About a year ago (maybe more) I attacked Shane from a position of strength, I had the better turning plane and I had alt. I boomed in, and after a beautiful merge on his part, I was shot down QUICK. I upped again, attacked again, and was killed again, same move. I asked him HOW he did it, and asked nicely if he would let me flim mergin' on him w/ guns off. He LET me (I was shocked, at the time I had thought him a bully/meanie from all his trash talk) and I flimed the merge from 2-3 diff attack angles (fast, slow, etc.) and thanked him for letting me film it all. After maybe 6 fights, I finally killed him, gave him a and I immediately logged to watch the film. After viewing it 10 times, and lots of wiggling of my hands (ended up usin' empty cig packs) to try and figure out WHAT he had done, and WHY it worked, I figured out the move.
I still use a variant of that merge to this day (mine's a bit more timid, but basically just as good imho) and I give much respect to Shane for his helping me out.
You might consider asking one of the "vets" to allow you to .join them during one of their sorties, and SEE how they are doing what they do. If you are in a squad of only "new" pilots, I would consider looking for another squad that has member that can teach you. The suggestion to move from the country with #'s is a good one, as you won't learn much gangbanging in a 10 on 2. Spend some time in the TA, or Dueling Arena, and ask lot's of questions.
Give it at least six months. Half the fun (heck, more than half) is clawing your way to the top. I've been on AH now for two years, and consider myself "good", but I can think of a dozen that are "better". It wasn't easy getting here, but I had a GREAT time learning. I now can fly my 110 o' death (the main ride I picked for this tour) and take much joy in killing spitfires in stall fights.
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Originally posted by Octavius
Many of the true vets have since moved on. I rarely see an old face these days. The gaps left by those players were filled with the new guys and they wrote their own unwritten book. It's wrong.
Why do I get the feeling that they are still here but they fly under a different name? In AHI when I went down, 9 out of 10 times I knew the person who killed me. Since AHII however, I've had my arse handed to me by too many people I never encountered before. Playing for 2 years and all of a shuden I can't recognize half the people that just killed me by out flying me in every possible way.
Hmmmm:rolleyes:
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Something else that can help you out Ohio is to go to the scores page and click the link for *kill stats in expanded format* (I think thats the name of the link, if thats not exact it's very similar). That page will show you how many kills you have in each aircraft you have flown, how many times you have died in each aircraft and how many times you have died to each aircraft.
I use that page as a tool. I used to die to La-7's more than any other aircraft type. When I realised that, I started working on improving my ability to kill the La-7. I read articles, asked questions and looked at other peoples films. Once I had improved my skills vs the La-7 I looked at that scores page again to see which aircraft was killing me the most now and repeated the process to improve against that aircraft.
I also set goals for myself each Tour. Usually my goals include improving my SA and gunnery skills. Imo those are the 2 most important skills in A2A combat.
Biggest thing to remember though, is the learning never ends :)
*edit* Also check out the help and training forum, LOADS and LOADS of good info there.
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Originally posted by Ironblade
Question :
Can you tell me how to properlly Take a base in accordance with fair play or furball guidlines?
Here would be the perfect example using a 10--man squad or "mission" that provides CAP. We'll presume the town is down by some buffs/jabos who have either died or are rtb.
The biggest complaint about a failure to take a base usually revolves around the goon dying before it gets there, right? quite probably by just one bad guy in an area where there are 10+ friendlies.
7 of those friendlies are probably vulc... errr close capping the airfield, 1-2 are probably over the town making sure nothing comes up. then you have 1 guy who may be hanging around the goon thinking he's "escorting" it - in all likelyhood about 2-3k directly above the goonm which is the absolute best seat in the house for watching the goon explode.
here's where the "tactical" failure comes in. instead of having 7 guys close capping, you only need 2 or 3. the other 4-5 guys *should* be extending outwards towards the most likely ingress route of the goon hunter(s), preventing them from even getting within view of the base being worked over, much less the goon inbound. this kills/or at least ties up any bad guys, giving that goon time to make a nice easy stress-free drop.
the guy *over* the goon, would be better off being a mile or 2 ahead, just within dot range of the goon (we'll assume he made the goon his wingman so he can track it easier) and at about 12-15k agl. this provides the "escort" the opportunity to catch any inbound goon killers, and force them down and away, or dive down screaming onto one who may be hauling *** on the deck. once a high goon killer starts his dive onto the goon, the goon is pretty much undefendable. you have to catch the bad guy before that point. or prevent them from getting to that point in the first place.
on the converse side of base defense, we'll take a 4-man flight fighter sweep. these guys want to help defend the base. how often do these 4 guys simply dive down into the mess *at* the base, killing a vulcher or 2 before getting killed by the baddies who are arriving with alt themselves?
instead of doing that, they should overfly the base (and the 7-8 guys down below vulching) and hit the inbound jabos/buffs/fighter about mid-point between the baddies' originating base and the base being defended causing them to either dump ord, or kill them. this creates disorganization amongst the attackers while they try and deal with that sweep, as well as buying time for the guys *at* the base being defended to kill the vulchers, up and start heading out themselves.
get the idea?
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Originally posted by dedalos
Why do I get the feeling that they are still here but they fly under a different name? In AHI when I went down, 9 out of 10 times I knew the person who killed me. Since AHII however, I've had my arse handed to me by too many people I never encountered before. Playing for 2 years and all of a shuden I can't recognize half the people that just killed me by out flying me in every possible way.
Hmmmm:rolleyes:
lol, the law of averages I suppose. The new crowd can't all suck :D. A percentage could have learned on their own.
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Originally posted by Octavius
The new crowd takes the path of least resistance. Inanimate objects put up less of a fight than I do :) I think *we* should be reaching out to the newguys, too. :/
Yes, the veterans should make more of an effort to reach out to the new players. I think though the dynamic of this community is what is keeping that from really happening.
The reliance on the community that HT is placing to train the new players is not really working and something new is needed. There has to be some sort of formal training program very much like the ones that AW and WB have had.
ack-ack
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Originally posted by Octavius
lol, the law of averages I suppose. The new crowd can't all suck :D. A percentage could have learned on their own.
lol, true, but where did they learn? Shouldn't I have been killing them while they were learning? :D
I'VE BEEN CHEATED. I WANT MY KILLS BACK :mad:
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" D: Seriously have considered buying new equipment
to increase preformance of a game that makes me
angry"
I've spent enough money on Logitech sticks to have bought most of a good system by now.
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Originally posted by Shane
.....when i first got into flight sims, i took my lumps repeatedly, as a result i got as good as i am now.
I'll attest to that, way back when I can remember Oopsy...he'd moan curse whine with the best of em...but the SOB kept coming back for more. For any/all of you who whine moan or badmouth the boy the bottom line is simple...he walked the walk...so he's earned the right to talk the talk (even if it is smack most of the time :D ). AH probably has the greatest accumulation of sim pilots on the planet...many have 5000+/hrs of actual air combat in this enviornment. Many like cobra412 have become very good in less than a year....like Oopsy they worked at it. Spend the time and the results will come.
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My two cents
I don't understand all the beeching really, I am most obviously not one of the better sticks in the game, I do all right for the amount of time I get to play, with two younguns under 4, it ain't much.
How I have my fun...
Reading the channel text for the taunters and the fish they hook :)
Saying hi to all the peeps I've come to know over the years through this and Air Warrior.. Especially my squadies, some of whom I've known since the first weeks I was augering spits taking off in aolAW...lol
Uppin a spitV near a base that is getting stomped and staying under 5k, getting da dopes into turnfights, ( I started doing this after watching Leviathan and Wildthing do this over and over again one day, laffing der arses off, It is way too much fun lol)
Flying Spit ones is a lesson in itself, I remember one day knits were getting stomped and shane put up a Spit one sweep, he said - We'll probably getting killed, but imagine the perks ya get ..lol, I got amazingly a couple kills, perks u wouldn't believe, and to this day is still the most fun mission I participated in,
My point, you need to make it fun, it is a stupid on line game, Don't tell me -I have so little time, I want my ride !! - you are missing all the fun.
NwBie
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Originally posted by Shane
as a result i got as good as i am now.
...and 5,000 mere mortals of the AH community are treated to your accounts of this feat on a daily basis. :rolleyes::lol
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actually, it's very rare you see me bragging about how good *I* am. I more often tell them exactly how much they suck.
:D
I suppose I should post films to prove my point...
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Originally posted by Shane
I suppose I should post films to prove my point...
Yes you should. And if you're as good as you claim to be, no need to use the P51/LA7/Spit9 crutch planes. :D
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Originally posted by Shane
then you have 1 guy who may be hanging around the goon thinking he's "escorting" it - in all likelyhood about 2-3k directly above the goonm which is the absolute best seat in the house for watching the goon explode.
here's where the "tactical" failure comes in. instead of having 7 guys close capping, you only need 2 or 3. the other 4-5 guys *should* be extending outwards towards the most likely ingress route of the goon hunter(s), preventing them from even getting within view of the base being worked over, much less the goon inbound. this kills/or at least ties up any bad guys, giving that goon time to make a nice easy stress-free drop.
the guy *over* the goon, would be better off being a mile or 2 ahead, just within dot range of the goon (we'll assume he made the goon his wingman so he can track it easier) and at about 12-15k agl. this provides the "escort" the opportunity to catch any inbound goon killers, and force them down and away, or dive down screaming onto one who may be hauling *** on the deck. once a high goon killer starts his dive onto the goon, the goon is pretty much undefendable. you have to catch the bad guy before that point. or prevent them from getting to that point in the first place.
That's great Shane. Brought back a memory from years ago in AH back when you dropped troops on the field and there were no towns. We were heavily outnumbered and our base in question had been pounded down, though there were still players trying to up from it. I had upped an A6M5b from further back and arrived up above the incoming enemy aircraft. I rolled onto my side and looked down and I saw a single C-47 with six or seven P-51Ds right arounding like they were the Secret Service protecting the PoUS with their bodies. They couldn't have been more than 500ft above the C-47 and 500ft to the side. So I dove down in my mighty A6M5b and with it's awesome ;) high speed handling flew right through the middle of those sleek, fast P-51Ds at 425mph and blew the C-47 away. Then I pulled and slowly brought the nose up and zoomed back to the clouds. Leaving siz or seven mighty P-51D's standing there while an A6M5b got off without a scratch for killing their goon was great fun.
It was pathetically easy and I was in what was quite possibly the worst aircraft for the job. Imagine how easy that would have been in a P-51D, La-7 or Fw190.
Close escorts are just as useless in AH as they were in 1940 when the Bf109s and Bf110s got taken out of the fight over England by such nonsense.
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films are only good to a point, and instead of telling people how good i am, i prefer to help them at least take a step in the right direction of less suck. how many people have *you* helped?
those aren't crutches anyway, they're clubs. in your case those, i can see how they'd be a crutch.
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Originally posted by Shane
films are only good to a point, and instead of telling people how good i am, i prefer to help them at least take a step in the right direction of less suck. how many people have *you* helped?
those aren't crutches anyway, they're clubs. in your case those, i can see how they'd be a crutch.
I don't. I never flew 'em in at least 2 years. As for helping, I helped a guy with his Vsync settings today. Does that count?
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Ohio, I think you have to define your idea of FUN. To me its fun to fight these uber pilots that are chating here. Yes they hand me my head more often than not, but thats my fun...trying to beat these guys. If I could catch them on-line with a few mins of free time I would love to hook up with them and learn any thing they would be willing to teach.
If on the other hand all you want to do is buzz around and kill everything in the arena and then land, your in the wrong game, go get your self a tie fighter or something.
What is your idea of fun?
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Originally posted by Ohio330
I was part of that rook horde. I found safety in numbers in order to learn this game. As it stands now, I cannot find myself learning anything
but defensive moves.
Remember how some people used to chortle about telling the noobs to Alt+F4 to release drop tanks, drop bombs, or deal with any other situation? Did you have a good laugh when they did it? Eh? Or did you get frustrated and just tell 'em to piss off?
Well, what you see here from Ohio330 is a sample of the result. The actual result is 1000 times worse. For all those who suggested Alt+F4, I hope you're satisfied. :mad: Now, imagine being smashed in the face with a rifle butt, and your body being taken out in an elevated hopper to be dumped at sea for your sins.
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Originally posted by Shane
and what do you learn, as a noob, flying in the horde? this is exactly part of the problem. noobs fly in the horde, then they get comfy in it, and then locked into it because to actually get better they have to put their fragile egos on the line and take risks, possibly dying and screwing up their precious internalization of how good they've gotten in the horde.
wouldn't you learn faster by flying as hard as you can, pushing the envelop in various planes, dying many times in the process? not only does this help you learn the planes, it also develops your SA.
once you get good, then you move onto squad "tactics" - something that is really lacking in AH for the most part, other than a "let's all up here and go take base XXX, hopefully only 1 or 2 will defend it and we can vulch them repeatedly as we take the base. my, aren't we 9 guys so awesome?"
you can learn the bombing stuff offlilne...
what is it these days? when i first got into flight sims, i took my lumps repeatedly, as a result i got as good as i am now.
it was a simple matter to learn the bombing stuff. buildings don't move.
not directed at *you* ohio, but at noobs and so-called "vets" in general. "vets" have been very poor role models for you noobs, teaching you all sorts of lazy and shoddy habits because they've locked themselves into their little boxes.
Dang you Shane if you just didn't hit the nail square on .
:D
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Im a noob and anyone who puts me on some stoopid noob server is gonna get his income increased with 1 account. There is no way Im flyin in some contained noob enviroment.
I want to fly in the real world... I want to fry if I screw up.. I want to die if I fly like a noob... that is the only way I can improve.. have the vets there and strive to kill em..
I dont fly the hoard exclusivly I try to fight different scenarios as much as possible to learn as much as possible.
I fly extreamly outnumbered base defenses because it learns me to evade better and while evading getting my plane in possition to shoot.
I fly hoard to widen my situation awarness.
I fly even number situations because these are a good challange.
I go of on lone raids towards enemy bases where I know I can pick of people who are joining a battle. I do this to learn 1vX fights.
So Shane please dont say that all noobs fly hoards, all that noobs learn is to hoard and get comfy in the situation and cant handle anything but it.
Tex
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Originally posted by Flayed1
I've been a bish the entire time I've playd AH (for about 2 years) Has it really been that long already??
Any way the times I remember seeing fellow bish jump sides the most is usually after being steam rolled by rooks for 2 to 3 resets and right befor that 3rd or 4th reset they jump to rook probably beacause they get tired of losing.
And don't give me the Bish just don't work togeather speach I know there are some bish that just wanna do their own thing but I'll bet that go's for all 3 sides.
I fly with the BOPs and we work togeather alot within the squad as well a cooping with other squads but from what I've seen It dosn't matter much how well you work togeather taking bases and defending them if you just don't have the man power to do both at the same time.
My advice for newbs is rather than switch sides to find safty in #s find a sizeable squad to try flying with, like the BOPs for example you don't have to join the squad to fly with us and there are usually a good # of us on at any given time and as far as I know we are all willing to help a new player.
I'm sure this would go for most squads in Bishland and Knitland am I right guys?
Sorry Rooks not to leave you out you guys probablly have great squads too but I just don't see you needing the help at the moment. :p
Anyway thats my take on the situation.
BINGO---YATZEE---We have a winner!:D As a Knight of the Dirty Fokkers squad, I've been the poor bstrd alone trying to fend off the horde, until a few of my fellow knits recognize that we are about to loose an important base and come to help out. Which a few of them like getsome, grillman, spitman, guns06, as well as my fellow Fokkers have helped this NOOB on a regular basis, either beat back the horde, or pound them relentlessly and take the base back. Witness the last map of tour 55, FURBALL ISLAND,was for the most part controlled by the knits, even after repeated attempts by the bish and rooks to take back their bases! Not once were the knits ever kicked off that island completely(Sorry, I couldn't stop myself on that one). At other times it seemed as tho no one actually wanted to take any bases, they just wanted to Furball or spawn poach, or just vulch in general ! Maybe after playing the game for a year or so, I might be able to figure out the mentallity of the game (probably not).
But as far as the gamer VS simmer issue, we are all gamers, but a few of us are simmers too ! I started out with Flight Simulator on an Apple ii and Gunship on a Commodore 64, and have been hooked (line & sinker) on sims ever since. It gave me a chance to do something that I couldn't afford to do in RL, FLY ! In the end this is a game not RL, and people don't actually die (thank god). Simmers love lots of detail, and we all (gamers) just want to play!
So hats off to all those at Hitech, Microsoft, and etc.,etc. for creating these games (simms) for all of us to play! Otherwise we'd all still be playing asteroids at the local arcade, or doing something else with our spare time !
Anyways, that's my 2 cents on this, take it for what it's worth !:rofl :aok :cool:
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Originally posted by TexMurphy
so Shane please dont say that all noobs fly hoards, all that noobs learn is to hoard and get comfy in the situation and cant handle anything but it.
Tex
i never said that.
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Originally posted by Ohio330
Like I said, I am not planning on avoiding the MA all together.
I would return to it to attempt to learn from the harder guys.
All Im asking is for a place to actually have fun, not neccessarily
learning... an alternative to the constant beating.
As it stands now, I'll use the analogy of a pro football team.
I have never played organized football. Say one day
a pro football coach comes up to me and tells me that if I pay $14.95/mo. he will start me in the Center position for every game.
I jump in and constantly get plowed on my back by a 400lb. guy.
I keep getting back up and jump back in to repeat same. After
a bit I say to myself, WTF am I doing in this league at this point, this is no fun.
I know that it takes time to learn..a lot of time. I just want an alternative arena to go to when the bruises get bad.
That's what the Training Area is for! It gives you a place to go try new techniques, and learn form veterans like Fuzeman and many others, who you'd otherwise might have to face in the M A! It also gives you a chance to help other NOOBS learn from you. I've only been playing AH2 for 3 weeks or so, and split my time between the M A, T A, H2H, to learn from others!
Start out in the T A, try a new technique, and chances are that one of the vets or trainers will help you with any mistakes that you might be making. And don't get Miffed or discouraged if your technique doesn't work, try a new one! But most of all you have to be willing to crash and burn a few thousand times before you will get good enough to actually beat some of the Vets! See you there !:cool:
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I think playing with people within my skill level would be more "fun".
Sure this is all well and good but how is this pushing the limits of your flying ability?
It simply is not. Re-read what shane wrote. Its some very wise advise from someone who's been there done that.
The only way to learn in this game, and I mean really learn how to fly and fight is to die, make many mistakes and try and learn as much as you can from those mistakes you've made and will make.
I will tell you the honest truth. I hate the new ENY system. It took the most fun out of the game. WHICH was fighting off the hordes. Be it Rook, Nit, or Bish. I always enjoyed and still do going into a fight that I know I will probably not rtb from. But I work as hard as I can to take as many of the hordlings with me in the process. I've gotten better at many things as a result of that.
For me there was never any satisfaction in flying in a horde and ganging any single con that is in sight. Not to say that I havent flown in a horde or where I've had numbers on my side, but its much more satisfying to win a fight on your own rather than with the help of others.
There are still hordes but they are evenly dispursed along each front line. Rooks have their little group, so do Nits and Bish. Where one follows the other and so on and so forth. But they have decreased in size as a result of the new eny system. The once massive Rook horde that forced me and my squad to move to the Nights is no more. And the Bish and Nights have evened up with the Rooks as far as numbers go on most nights.
Some could say this is a good thing some are going to say its bad. I think its just plain boring.
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Hate to say it and hope it doesn't sound like a flame but you sound like a quitter to me.
All of us who have played for years have taken our lumps and tried to improve.
Most of us are willing to go to the DA and help you some.
If you want to improve fight the best, film the fights and ask questions. If not go play FA.
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Originally posted by Ohio330
Your really kinda missing the point. I never said I wouldn't get any better..but as we all know, this game takes A LOT
of learning. MONTHS.
For a lot of us, it's taken years to get to the level.
ack-ack
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Originally posted by Furious
You know, a long time ago in a galaxy far, far away, FA (fighter ace) had arenas like you suggest. You know what happened? The folks in them got good at whopping on the newest of newbs, but not good enough to survive in the mains, so when they got to the point that they were supposed remove their training wheels and leave that arena, they would open a shades account or auger until their score was low enough to get back in.
A newbie arena can be added and kept relatively free from vets coming in and raising hell with all the seal pups. AW had a newbie arena and once you reached 10,000 points, you were unable to fly with any ammo. For the newbie, it might take them months to reach the 10,000 point limit but for veteran pilots, they'd be able to reach this score in a flight and when they landede they were unable to take off with ammo. This system pretty much kept the veterans out or at least in check. But you still need a formal training program for this type of arena to succeed.
ack-ack
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Originally posted by beet1e
...and 5,000 mere mortals of the AH community are treated to your accounts of this feat on a daily basis. :rolleyes::lol
just a reminder beet1e. Your project is way over due. You were supposed to complile the stats from last tour and tell us if the new ENY balance system has effected which planes are most commenly used by the top ranked fighter pilots. Are the Big Four still the Big Four or are we seeing some of the 'lesser' planes making more of an appearance?
ack-ack
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Originally posted by Shane
not directed at *you* ohio, but at noobs and so-called "vets" in general. "vets" have been very poor role models for you noobs, teaching you all sorts of lazy and shoddy habits because they've locked themselves into their little boxes.
I am trying to remember the last time I heard a "VET" say something on channel one like....
"HEY XYZ... if you are willing contact me privately... let me tell you what I saw in that fight and what I think worked and didn't"
Usually I hear "VETs" mocking someone because they are in a horde.. or it took three of them to shoot the Vet down etc.
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Originally posted by Ohio330
Being a noob, I cannot say that I "learned"
anything from these engagements except that I turned, you
turned, I died.
And at this point is where you should wreck your keyboard... and when you are calmed down.... pander to the Vet's ego... and ask him if he will explain what tactics they used... what you could have done better etc. Perhaps you get a response... and THEN the learning starts...
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See, Ohio... This is what happens when you quote my post but don't have the experience to back it up :D
The game is fun or is not fun based on one thing... Your frame of mind.
My post was never intended to attack the 'Fun-factor' My post was intended to address the arena tweaking to 'balance' the opponents.
If you're getting the smack down, then you just need to learn the method.... I'm not getting the smack down (well, in September I am getting my record low score... but prior to that I was fine).
If you just need to work up your skills, you need a squad. There are many... Mine is one. You need a squad that fits your attitude... My squad is for people who cuss alot, and drink alot and stuff :D... No, honestly Fate is a wicked bad squad... but if you have sensitive ears... well... keep walking...
Ok, back to the point... This game does have a steep learning curve... And that curve is only going to get more steep if you believe in my recommendations. I'm selling a hard-core war-sim angle.
I believe in learning the weapon, applying the weapon and winning the war...
My post was in opposition to the automatic defenses changing strength to accomodate the weak team. If you got anything else from my post, you might want to re-read it, because you may have it down wrong.
Anyhow, if you need training... My squad and many others are ready to help... Just ask.
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I'm baaaaack. I missed all the whining.
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Originally posted by Ack-Ack
just a reminder beet1e. Your project is way over due. You were supposed to complile the stats from last tour and tell us if the new ENY balance system has effected which planes are most commenly used by the top ranked fighter pilots. Are the Big Four still the Big Four or are we seeing some of the 'lesser' planes making more of an appearance?
ack-ack
hehe, unfortunately, all I get when I visit the stats pages is a message saying "Netscape support coming soon". But it would have been an interesting project. :D
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Originally posted by Steve
I'm baaaaack. I missed all the whining.
Welcome back Steve....you came to the right place. :D
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Ohio if this is the type of game you'd like to play your going to have to take the beatings until you get better. The only thing I could suggest is exactly what other folks have said, find a trainer. By flying with only new folks you won't ever learn anything except for maybe alot of bad habits.
Though I don't always agree with how Shane acts, he is an awesome pilot here. You could learn alot from pilots such as Shane. If you want to learn you have to start out with the basic flight maneuvers and basic gunnery. In the process of learning these maneuvers you have to learn the concept of angles and energy management. Once you have a decent handle on this you will need to learn merge tactics.
Merge tactics can be the hardest because you need to know what the other aircraft is capable of and what your aircraft is capable of. You have to be able to read the other aircraft if possible to know what's coming next. If you don't understand e management, angles fighting and basic flight maneuvers this will be an almost impossible feat. There are alot of writeups out there about these subjects. I know there are some in the training section of the BBS. I suggest you read up some and take notes of what you don't understand. Then go get one of the veteran pilots and ask them if they can show you what is being explained in the articles.
Basically what it comes down to if you want to survive in almost any of these arenas you need to take the time to learn. Take the beatings and ask questions afterwards if you have to. Film your engagements also so you can review them later and see what exactly the other pilot was doing. If your still having problems understanding how they were setting up to kill you then post the film and ask for help.
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The MA can still be a good place for noobs to learn and have fun at the same time. But you have to want to *improve*, not just get kills. There is a big difference between the two. If you just want to start racking up a score, then drool on over to the nearest conveyor belt and vultch away. Wahoo! You am be a Fyter Ase! NOT!
Best thing to do is look for a smaller fight on the edges. Someplace where 6 or 8 guys are trying to take a base or defend one. Take off in your preferred ride and join up. On the distance channel, *tell them* you're kind of new and ask if you can tag along and help.
Most experienced players will respect that kind of attitude. They will keep an eye on you. If you're using the wrong plane for the mission profile, they'll tell you exactly what plane and loadout is best next flight. If they see you doing something that'll get you killed, they'll tell you. You will get check-6 calls - which is hugely important to surviving long enough to learn anything. You will be able to engage enemies knowing people are there who will most likely try to save you if you get into trouble - instead of waiting til you die so they can take your kill.
Even if all you do in an afternoon is take up a P51 and clear the 6 of the people you're flying with ... and get nothing but assists ... you will (a) have had fun because you were part of a team effort, and (b) will have learned a lot more than you realize about the *timing* involved in succeeding at this game.
-DoK
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Originally posted by Shane
and what do you learn, as a noob, flying in the horde?.................and then locked into it because to actually get better they have to put their fragile egos on the line
I can understand the temptation to classify those from the horde as above.....infact I think its a gross generalisation and not entirely true ...........
My experience is that the majority of players move away from the horde with time..........they may stay in smaller numbers and may not become lone hunters..........
The horde is IMO that group of players slow of skill or new to the game mixed with those of skill and experience who (for that evening or that mission) take a lazy option. They are large group without real leadership and therefore only capable of "horde" like strategms.
They are the "mob" of Shakespeare's Julius Ceasar unchanged through the centuries. Yet as individuals they are not so different to any free thinking player here.
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Well, there are other things you find in the Horde ...
Some nites you just want to help with a reset ... like, if you're sick of the current map.
You can get some fine bounces moving out a little ahead of the Horde and picking off people trying to climb into it.
Hunting goon-hunters is always a kick.
And sometimes, well, sometimes someone just has to go in and de-ack the damn field, y'know?
-DoK
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Originally posted by DoKGonZo
Best thing to do is look for a smaller fight ...........
Someplace where 6 or 8 guys are trying to take a base or defend one. Take off in your preferred ride and join up.
Totally agree this is best for experience and fun factor..........IMHO it is this that any game play modification should target and not concern its self too much with overall number balance (except how it effects the above) or who is winning or losing.
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Originally posted by DoKGonZo
The MA can still be a good place for noobs to learn and have fun at the same time. But you have to want to *improve*, not just get kills. There is a big difference between the two. If you just want to start racking up a score, then drool on over to the nearest conveyor belt and vultch away. Wahoo! You am be a Fyter Ase! NOT!
Best thing to do is look for a smaller fight on the edges. Someplace where 6 or 8 guys are trying to take a base or defend one.
-DoK
Originally posted by 4510
And at this point is where you should wreck your keyboard... and when you are calmed down.... pander to the Vet's ego... and ask him if he will explain what tactics they used... what you could have done better etc. Perhaps you get a response... and THEN the learning starts...
Im only 6 months in to online flight sims, and I think I understand what Ohio was trying to express. It can be VERY frustrating to try and try and try, failing but not really understanding why.
And while I hear what the vets are saying -- self directed training and analysis CAN help us move up some notches -- I think there is a point here that does have merit. The vets who stuck it out are the ones who largely pulled themselves up by their bootstraps; who knows how many noobs left, whose learning style is different and whose never developed skills could have been contributing to the MA and CT? We're talking about lost potential. Just because you guys learned by pain and self study doesnt mean everyone else should HAVE to learn that way.
How many others are there who jsut feel the frustration for a coule months and leave? I'm not driven by my ego, but it isnt fun toi ALWAYS be meat on the table for someone else. Give the guy a break -- maybe he actually just want to have fun with a realistic flight sim, and maybe he doesnt want to have to learn to play peewee football by scrimmaging with the NY giants.
Because in essence that's exactly what you're asking newbies to do. Forget being safe, forget having fun -- boys, if you wanna learn to play you're gonna have to take some licks. Training camp and film room until you're big enough to earn our respect....
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Having said that, Ohio, they also have a point. I got very frustrated and probably would ahve quit if it weren't for the fun of online flying with my out-of-town brother. I've learned a lot by a few sessions with a trainer -- "pick up" in the TA and by appointment through email. I've reviewed films from the BBS and films of my own actions. I've read some articles and learned ACM concepts (though applying them still needs some work.) I've done some sessions in the DA with people better than me so I could learn form my mistakes.
And almost whenever I've asked, my killers have offered suggestions about whta I did wrong. one small step at a time I've learned to stay alive by flying better. I'm not a vet, but I'm somewhere between an apprentice and a journeyman. Trust me, it's more fun than doing the flaming aluminum thing. Expect it to take months.
There are unfortunately pilots who take the game much more seriously than they should. It's sad to realize that for some their "skill" at a COMPUTER GAME is a benchmark for their self image and self worth. It is a game,a nd its supposed to be fun. Just remember that some who taunt the "no skill dweeb" are in essence like the high school sports star who never makes it in adult life, who has nothing but his game to live in.
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The posts I quoted, and the others like them, are the kind that I think will help the game the most. They're positive, practical, and helpful.
For everyone else: Don't dis the guy. He has a point, and right now AH2 can't afford to lose subscriptions unnecessarily. Our response should be a bit above "suck it up, take it like a man, it'll make you stronger."
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Back when I first started online flight sims I managed to get some help from folks. I will admit a lot of the time I had to ask them how they managed that. However I did have several folks that would "reach across" the country barrier and send me a message and say...
"Hey... let's go to OCLUB2 and talk over our last engagement. There are several things you did that really put you in the hurt locker. Meet you there?"
Moggy was good about that.....
Twist... you sort of had to ask / beg.....
Bebop would help you.....
In the beginning the "lead turn" was a complete mystery.....
"Unloading the wings"... did you actually take them off the plane?
If course back then there was a lot more emphasis on A2A than in AH. So more chances to meet someone in a 1 v 1 and try some moves etc.
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Originally posted by Simaril
Im only 6 months in to online flight sims, and I think I understand what Ohio was trying to express. It can be VERY frustrating to try and try and try, failing but not really understanding why.
...
FWIW, I've never subscribed to the "furball til you stop sucking at it" training method for the reason you just stated. There are so many variables that you can't tell what you're doing wrong.
But ... new people need to really understand that this is a *thinking* game. Quick reflexes may get you some snap-shot kills, but the people who have really mastered this genre do it with their heads, not their hands.
Therefore, self-study *is* important. There is no short-cut for having this core knowledge. If you want to get good, you should go to Amazon.com and order a copy of Shaw. Nowwwwww, maggots! :lol
Find a trainer, ask some of the guys here on the BBS to go to the DA, and practice offline ... a lot. It's boring as hell, but if you have to think about hwo to fly the plane you're at a disadvantage.
-DoK
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Simaril I understand what Ohio is getting at and I can understand what the "veterans" are getting. Because of the learning curve in AH you have to put a little more effort in to even become mediocre.
To make the teaching process a bit faster it is advisable for new folks to do some research on the above mentioned items. By atleast having a basic understanding of these items it will greatly expediate the training process. They don't have to know every last thing just the basic idea of what each pertains to.
Unfortunately in a game like this it requires alot of things to become good. You need knowledge, quick reflexes, and above all patience. Over time things will start to come naturally but in the meanwhile there will be good and bad times. More bad then good it seems at times. If folks just want to come in a shoot stuff down here within their first week it my not be the right game for them.
I was flying 400 to 500 sorties when I first started and I was lucky to get a 100 kills by the end of the month. It took me almost 4 months or so to even start to break even on my kills to deaths. This game just takes time to get use to and even then it won't guarantee you'll advance to the levels of some folks on here. I'm not even close and I've been flying for just over a year now.
Oh and I believe Gonzo is talking about Robert L. Shaws book, Fighter Combat: Tactics and Maneuvering. I have that book too and it helps a whole lot when it comes to basic theory and even more of the advanced aspects of air to air engagements.
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Originally posted by 4510
I am trying to remember the last time I heard a "VET" say something on channel one like....
"HEY XYZ... if you are willing contact me privately... let me tell you what I saw in that fight and what I think worked and didn't"
Usually I hear "VETs" mocking someone because they are in a horde.. or it took three of them to shoot the Vet down etc.
If ya look in the "Help and Training" Forum You will see lots of Vets saying they will show "Newbs" how to get better..even Shane!!!:eek: :aok
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Originally posted by tzr
If ya look in the "Help and Training" Forum You will see lots of Vets saying they will show "Newbs" how to get better..even Shane!!!:eek: :aok
Ah but back to the old "find it on the bbs thing".
I think the dialog needs to be done in the MA...
Channel 200 would work nicely for such things... instead of the constant trash talk that routinely happens there.
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4510 that's all fine and dandy if they atleast have the first clue of what your trying to teach them. Without a decent foundation you can sit and run around in circles just trying to get a certain point across.
I understand for some it's easier to do it than to read about it. But in the long run it saves alot of time if they atleast try to grasp a little of the basics first. Other wise you'll spend too much time trying to fight vox and typing everything out that the session won't be as effecient.
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when the arena has 300+ people on ch200 and ch2 and ch6 (unless u have it squelched) scroll by way too fast to be able to hold fourth on the finer points of acm/sa/tactics.
that's what the DA/TA is for, unfortuantely many of the people who need it most, i.e., other "vets" won't step outside of their own little boxes.
I rarely spend time with total noobs who have not the slightest clue about things - there are simply way too many of them. you want to reach the guys who have stuck with it for a while but are unable to progress because they simply aren't sure what to do to get past the particular level they're stuck on.
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Originally posted by Cobra412
4510 that's all fine and dandy if they atleast have the first clue of what your trying to teach them. Without a decent foundation you can sit and run around in circles just trying to get a certain point across.
I understand for some it's easier to do it than to read about it. But in the long run it saves alot of time if they atleast try to grasp a little of the basics first. Other wise you'll spend too much time trying to fight vox and typing everything out that the session won't be as effecient.
Which is why new players should spend some time in the TA where they can get help with the basics.
I spend about 6 hours every week working with new players, as does the rest of the trainers. Some log up to 100 hours in the TA every month.
We help them learn the basics of aircraft management. Help them get their VOX working. I try to get them into something besides the Spitfire, where most seem to gravitate. There are also veteran players who go to the TA to work on aspects of their flying. These guys almost always will take time to work with Noobs. Cobra412 was doing exactly that the other day. Most noobs get into fighting each other. That's useful to a point. Unless they fly against players with more skill than a fellow noob, they head off to the MA with a false sense of confidence. Invariably, they run into a vet and get waxed. After this happens several times, they become discouraged. Some simply quit, others assume that this is how it will be and get into the suicide mode, already knowing that they will be shot down anyway.
This is why it is important that new players log some time with good, experienced pilots. Since you can't get shot down in the TA. getting pinged up doesn't end the flight. You can discuss what was done wrong and immediately see if the lesson was learned. I try to get the noobs into aircraft that have a medium difficulty level.
However, it's up to the new player to go there and seek help. Any new player can contact HTC for a list of trainers and their e-mail addresses. They can drop a line and set up a time and date for training. If one trainer can't be there at that time, another usually can. Here's my e-mail address.
Widewing@flyaceshigh.com
Talk about personal attention, Fuseman is visiting Skeksis at his home to help him sort out joystick issues (they both live in Buffalo, NY).
There will be more trainers added soon. Skuzzy and Ghosth are overseeing the organization of a genuine training corps.
Everyone, both veteran and new players should go to the training page at the HTC website (http://www.hitechcreations.com/ahhelp/training.html). HTC set up this system so that experienced players can work with new players. Read through the page and you will notice that HTC has a reward system in place for helping new players.
It says,"If/when the new player subscribes to Aces High II, they are presented with a list of all players who have helped them and they choose who they feel helped them the most.
The player chosen as the one who was most helpful is given a $10 credit to their account "
By helping new players it's possible to earn enough credits to fly Aces High for free. HTC says. "It will be possible for exceptionally helpful veteran players to accumulate multiple credits. In the future, HTC will consider sending checks to those that continuously strive to build the Aces High II customer base"
Gentlemen, if you want to expand the player base, if you want a better caliber of competition, you can volunteer to train new players and maybe save some money every month to boot.
My regards,
Widewing
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Widewing that's a great post. Many don't choose to seek out help in the TA when there is alot of good folks that help out in there. I'd bet that many don't even know that there is dedicated trainers in there either.
I would spend more time in there but I'm still a newbie myself. I'd hate to send some guy/girl out to the MA with my bad habits. Which I'm sure some of the vets that kill me could point out in a heartbeat.
I will teach the basics if folks need the help. I just wasn't sure if we could do it in the TA considering we aren't official trainers. I'll be sure to ask the trainers first if I can help though.
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Im pretty bad pilot myself, really would need some training lessions.
I think a newbie arena would be bad, because in there only the more experienced newbies would blow away the true newbies without any endangerment of themserlf. Verry boring and eaven more frustrating for people that just start. I would venture a guess that eaven more experienced players that get frustrated in ma go to newbie arena to blast everyone away.
Find guys that are willing to help you. I started of as rook but didnt get much help there, some tried but werent online on my times (Thank you Spetsnaz).
So i got an offer from a knight wanting to help me, i changed teams and got some help, now sometimes having fun at shooting away in the ma but im still a bad pilot.
When you really want to learn i would recomend the training arena, or going to the dueling arena with a friend.
You have to find friends, online games are all about finding other players, either to play together with them or to get into competition.
just my 2 cent, see ya
schutt
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This is a first, never thought I'd agree with Shane -
But yup, don't think I have ever seen him bragging about how good he is on channel 200, more often than not its telling the other guy/s how bad they are.
Actually quite comical at times.
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Originally posted by Steve
I'm baaaaack. I missed all the whining.
Where the H*** have you been alt monkey? I am not afraid of 51s anymore. Come back and so I can get some respect for them again :D