Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Ripsnort on September 08, 2004, 01:22:51 PM
-
This is just the first of 3 articles covering this era. Whats even more disturbing is that one of those new French Rolands actually shot down an American plane.
If you want to read the whole series, I've supplied the originating newspaper.
Washington Times
September 8, 2004
Pg. 1
French Connection Armed Saddam
Aid continued until eve of war
By Bill Gertz, The Washington Times
The United States stood by for years as supposed allies helped its enemies obtain the world's most dangerous weapons, reveals Bill Gertz, defense and national security reporter for The Washington Times, in the new book "Treachery" (Crown Forum). In this excerpt, he details France's persistence in arming Saddam Hussein.
First of three excerpts
New intelligence revealing how long France continued to supply and arm Saddam Hussein's regime infuriated U.S. officials as the nation prepared for military action against Iraq.
The intelligence reports showing French assistance to Saddam ongoing in the late winter of 2002 helped explain why France refused to deal harshly with Iraq and blocked U.S. moves at the United Nations.
"No wonder the French are opposing us," one U.S. intelligence official remarked after illegal sales to Iraq of military and dual-use parts, originating in France, were discovered early last year before the war began.
That official was careful to stipulate that intelligence reports did not indicate whether the French government had sanctioned or knew about the parts transfers. The French company at the beginning of the pipeline remained unidentified in the reports.
France's government tightly controls its aerospace and defense firms, however, so it would be difficult to believe that the illegal transfers of equipment parts took place without the knowledge of at least some government officials.
Iraq's Mirage F-1 fighter jets were made by France's Dassault Aviation. Its Gazelle attack helicopters were made by Aerospatiale, which became part of a consortium of European defense companies.
"It is well-known that the Iraqis use front companies to try to obtain a number of prohibited items," a senior Bush administration official said before the war, refusing to discuss Iraq's purchase of French warplane and helicopter parts.
The State Department confirmed intelligence indicating the French had given support to Iraq's military....
-
One question that begs to be asked is...how much is the French Gov't helping arm insurgents via 3rd parties like Syria, Iran, etc.?
-
What a load of hypocrisy........
-
Washington Times Staff Meeting:
(http://news.bbc.co.uk/olmedia/420000/images/_420935_moon150.jpg)
(http://www.cnn.com/US/9711/29/moon.unification/link.ceremony.jpg)
-
1k0N, post your lead post from the other thread here, I liked your comments, food for thought.
-
The Mirages and the Rolands and the Gazelles were in service in the eighties. This helped perpetuate the myth that the west supplied most of Iraq's arms. It's highly unlikely that France was helping Iraq officially since then. They after all fought Iraq in the first Gulf war. Undoubtedly some smuggling of weapons did occur.
In fact the overwhelming majority of Iraqi equipment is and remains Russian. The insurgents use Russian weapons. Virtually every terrorist movement uses Russian weapons.
The proliferation of Russian equipment and missiles is the real problem not France.
-
Originally posted by cpxxx
The Mirages and the Rolands and the Gazelles were in service in the eighties. This helped perpetuate the myth that the west supplied most of Iraq's arms. It's highly unlikely that France was helping Iraq officially since then. They after all fought Iraq in the first Gulf war. Undoubtedly some smuggling of weapons did occur.
In fact the overwhelming majority of Iraqi equipment is and remains Russian. The insurgents use Russian weapons. Virtually every terrorist movement uses Russian weapons.
The proliferation of Russian equipment and missiles is the real problem not France.
I have seen pictures of late technology Rolands that were destroyed in Iraq. Those vehicles were built as late a 96...
So much for the late 80's theory, eh?
-
Originally posted by GScholz
Nice slander. I don't see any facts at all in that article, only biased presumptions and speculations. Of course, in this day and age that's enough to start wars.
I didn't read the whole thing, but that excerpt relies entirely on one anonymous source. Some people are easy to convince if a story fits their preconceived notions.
-
Originally posted by -MZ-
I didn't read the whole thing, but that excerpt relies entirely on one anonymous source. Some people are easy to convince if a story fits their preconceived notions.
or if they're in denial of the facts....;)
-
Originally posted by cpxxx
In fact the overwhelming majority of Iraqi equipment is and remains Russian. The insurgents use Russian weapons. Virtually every terrorist movement uses Russian weapons.
The proliferation of Russian equipment and missiles is the real problem not France.
Christ, the Irish make Geniuses.
Rip, stop fishing you 8 ball.
-
Originally posted by SLO
Christ, the Irish make Geniuses.
Rip, stop fishing you 8 ball.
^^Not my quote, just my data. Fishing? When I don't post facts and data, thats fishing.
-
the world revolves around ecnomy. this helps french ecnomy. i think.
-
Originally posted by B17Skull12
the world revolves around ecnomy. this helps french ecnomy. i think.
I can remember from the 1st gulf war this becoming an issue. Right up to the war the french firms were still selling repair parts to iraq for the french made equipment. They were supposed to be a part of the coalition back then. That kind of stuff is a stab in the back from a supposed ally.
Granted we have done our fair share of shady weapons sales...but ours were to meet policy goals..not for profit..IE selling arms to one group financed support of another in the name of freedom and the war on the spread of communism. Was it right probrably not..but we never sold weapons to someone our allies were fighting.
-
I think...you think...we all think...what do we think?
-
How can the UN be of any use when its members conspire against one another..
Missles have serial numbers, these numbers are tracked in inventory, when purchased the buyer is linked to the serial number.... Perfect solution is to ask the french weapon maker for a tracking record for the serial numbers we captured. They either comply or don't problem solved either way!
I have seen French accounting practices in action, they count nuts and bolts just like anyone does they know who bought which products... They havent figured out the rounding/spreadsheet issue on exchange rates but few million either way it may balance in a few years if they are lucky...But they seem to track inventories well....
I am more pissed off over the Putin speech and our state department interfering with russian affairs, Putin seems like a standup guy and has enough problems without some Black tie US politician fondling a Chechen wannabe rep behind Putins back.
Disgusts me...
IKON
-
i agree, let Putin deal with this. they have a sizeable amount of manpower to draw from. they don't our help.
-
Originally posted by Ripsnort
One question that begs to be asked is...how much is the French Gov't helping arm insurgents via 3rd parties like Syria, Iran, etc.?
French involvement in Syria is limited to diplomatic personnel. Haliburton exploiting a loophole in the US trade embargo with Iran via a front company in the Cayman Islands might help arm insurgents more than selling them a few Renaults.
-
Why do you care, if it's french, it's cr*p, it must be... right?
-
An interesting subject all around. Those that are opposed to the US government actions in the last few years can and will cite similar, but not like, actions made by the US government two decades ago. Arguments can be made on both sides, but it comes down to apples an oranges. The pertinant question is what role did current governments play in supporting Iraq, either through illegal arm sales, illegal oil purchases, or illegal trade. What role did the leadership of the UN have in any of these actions? What effect, if any, did these actions have on decisions made by leaders in respect to current events?
There seems to be a cover up going on in the UN right now. The world should only hope that it is brought to light, and that if any wrongdoing is found, those responsible are handled according to their crimes. The unfortunate thing is that it is not being published by the major world media sources. Most people you talk to have no idea of any hint of what might have gone on.
-
After the huge stockpiles of WMDs, the french SAMs...
(http://www.smokethis.com/news/frenchhead/tankgraf.jpg)
I pity the poor pilot who got shot down in his invulnerable A10 by a crappy french missile... The shame and dishonor must be unbearable.
-
Originally posted by Chortle
French involvement in Syria is limited to diplomatic personnel. Haliburton exploiting a loophole in the US trade embargo with Iran via a front company in the Cayman Islands might help arm insurgents more than selling them a few Renaults.
http://www.wlo-usa.org/Intl%20Opinion/french_connection.html
-
Front Page Magazine...with Ann Coulter as columnist.
Exactly how neutral and unbiased is that??
-
Originally posted by deSelys
After the huge stockpiles of WMDs, the french SAMs...
(http://www.smokethis.com/news/frenchhead/tankgraf.jpg)
I pity the poor pilot who got shot down in his invulnerable A10 by a crappy french missile... The shame and dishonor must be unbearable.
What does this inuendo have to do with the origonal questions other than sarcasm...The article doesn't encourage any belief that french weaponry is bad or that being killed by french weaponry is a disgrace, unless you can point out I missed it in the verbage. We want to know how the equipment found its way to the area!
We know that the new cold war is with western europe, but everyone is afraid to admit it in fear of hurting feelings! Im not inclinded to be sensitive when it pertains to french treachery or should we say the new vichy france and its use of the UN for personal business transactions.
Best Regards
IKON
-
Because, my friend, all this so-called proofs of the french treachery seem to be as volatile as the WMDs which were the main reason to inva....oops sorry free Iraq. Besides, the 'journalists' revealing those weapon sales are mostly so right-wing that they must be ashamed of their left limbs. Their credibility is hence minimal.
The USA should acknowledge that they are mad against France because it refused to admit the necessity to go to war in Iraq (not in Afghanistan, may i remind you). I have no problem with that, the right to be angry is universal. But there is absolutely no need to mount those european conspiracy theories which look just as rediculous as the 'pentagon mysteries'.
The 'cold war' your talking about is only in your head.
Lastly, the sarcasm wasn't aimed towards the article but towards all those here who bashed France for its total lack of military value...
-
Originally posted by deSelys
Because, my friend, all this so-called proofs of the french treachery seem to be as volatile as the WMDs which were the main reason to inva....oops sorry free Iraq. Besides, the 'journalists' revealing those weapon sales are mostly so right-wing that they must be ashamed of their left limbs. Their credibility is hence minimal.
The USA should acknowledge that they are mad against France because it refused to admit the necessity to go to war in Iraq (not in Afghanistan, may i remind you). I have no problem with that, the right to be angry is universal. But there is absolutely no need to mount those european conspiracy theories which look just as rediculous as the 'pentagon mysteries'.
The 'cold war' your talking about is only in your head.
Lastly, the sarcasm wasn't aimed towards the article but towards all those here who bashed France for its total lack of military value...
Oil vouchers were allegedly given either as gifts or as payment for goods imported into Iraq in violation of the U.N. sanctions.
The following are the names of some of those listed as receiving Iraqi oil contracts (amounts are in millions of barrels of oil):
Russia
The Companies of the Russian Communist Party: 137 million
The Companies of the Liberal Democratic Party: 79.8 million
The Russian Committee for Solidarity with Iraq: 6.5 million and 12.5 million (two separate contracts)
Head of the Russian Presidential Cabinet: 90 million
The Russian Orthodox Church: 5 million
France
Charles Pasqua, former minister of interior: 12 million
Trafigura (Patrick Maugein), businessman: 25 million
Ibex: 47.2 million
Bernard Merimee, former French ambassador to the United Nations: 3 million
Michel Grimard, founder of the French-Iraqi Export Club: 17.1 million
Syria
Firas Mostafa Tlass, son of Syria's defense minister: 6 million
Turkey
Zeynel Abidin Erdem: more than 27 million
Lotfy Doghan: more than 11 million
Indonesia
Megawati Sukarnoputri: 11 million
-
Ripsnort, a quote without a source is hot air.
And IF it is true, why don't you go after Russia first? Too big for you?
-
try to post a more complete list next time :
Syrie
1- Awad Amoura (plus de 18 millions de barils 18mb) 2- Bachar Nouri (plus de 12 mb) 3- Ghassan Challah (11 mb) 4- Mohammed Ammar Naoufal (3,5 mb) 5- Tamam Chehab (1 mb) 6- Hamida Naanaa (plus de 9 mb) 7- Firas Mustapha Tlass (6 mb) 8- Salim Al-Toun (3,5 mb) 9- Lotfi Fawzi (2,5 mb) 10- Lid pour les réalisations (3,5 mb) 11- Ghassan Zaccaria (6 mb) 12- Mohammed Maamoun Sabii (4 mb) 13- Hassan Kayyal (2 mb) 14- Anwar Al Aqad (2 mb)
Oman
1- Groupe Chanfari (5 mb)
Chypre
1- Mohammed Al Houni (plus de 17 mb) 2- Naphta Petrolium (13,2 mb) 3- Continental (3 mb)
Turquie
1- Zeinelabidine Ardam (plus de 27 mb) 2- Lotfi Dougane (plus de 11 mb) 3- Mohammed Aslan (13 mb) 4- Takfun (15,5 mb) 5- KCK entreprise (1,5 mb) 6- Delta Petrolium (4 mb) 7- SITA (2 mb) 8- OZIA (2 mb) 9- SAMIR (2 mb) 10- Muhtashem (2 mb) 11- Mukdar Sajzine (2 mb)
Vietnam
1- Finapco (1,2 mb) 2- Darlink Med (3 mb) 3- Fina Food (6 mb) 4- OSC (2 tonnes)
Soudan
1- Smaso (8 mb) 2- Entrprise de production de pétrole (2 tonnes) 3- Oil Plus (2 tonnes)
Yémen
1- Abdelkarim Al-Aryani (7,8 mb) 2- Toufik Abdelrahim (1,5 mb) 3- Chaher Abdelhak (plus de 7 mb)
Bengladesh
1- Moulana Abdelmannan (43,2 mb)
Inde
1- Biham Think (5,5 mb) 2- La parti du Congrès (4 mb)
Pakistan
1- Oil & Gas Group (10 tonnes) 2- Abou Abdelrahmane (11,5 tonnes) 3- Monsieur Azzaz (1 tonne)
Malaisie
1- Fayek Ahmed Chérif (12,5 mb) 2- BITMAL (4 mb) 3- Trad Beer (4 mb) 4- Mastek (Fayek Ahmed Chérif) (57 mb) 5- Hawala (7 mb)
Indonésie
1- La fille du président Suharto (2 mb) 2- Hawa Atlantic (2 mb) 3- Makram Hakim (3 mb) 4- Mégawati (8 mb) 5- Mohammed Amine Rayes (4 mb) 6- Natona Oil (2 mb)
Émirats arabes unis
1- Val Petroleum (1,8 mb) 2- Ahmed Maneh Saïd Al Outaïba ( 11 mb) 3- Jiwan Oil (4 mb) 4- Sultan Bin Zayed Al Nahyan (7,5 mb) 5- Al Hoda (22,9 mb) 6- Issa Bin Zayed AL Nahyan (5 mb) 7- Millinium (2 tonnes) 8- Bonny Fioul (1 tonne)
Maroc
1- Abdallah Salaoui (7,2 mb) 2- Nadel Hachémi (5,7 mb) 3- Mohammed Basri (4,5 mb)
Algérie
1- Abdelmagid Attar (6 mb) 2- Abdelkader Bin Moussa (6 mb)
Tunisie
1- Makades Petrolium (6,7 mb) 2- Vernaco (3,7 mb) 3- Maidor (4 mb)
Italie
1- Roberto Frimigoni (24,5) 2- Selvatori Nikotra (20 mb) 3- Monsieur Felloni (6,5 mb) 4- Père Benjamin (4,5 mb) 5- West Petrol (2 tonnes) 6- Hetrelk (2 tonnes) 7- ABS (1 tonne) 8- Association pétrolière italienne (1 tonne)
Espagne
1- Bassem Kakich (17,5 mb) 2- Javier Robert (9,8 mb) 3- Ali Balloute (8,8 mb)
Yougoslavie
1- Parti socialiste (22 mb) 2- Parti de gauche [JUL ?] (9,5 mb) 3- Parti italien [en Croatie ?] (16 mb) 4- Parti de Kostunica [DSS] (6 mb)
Biélorussie
1- Parti libéral (6 mb) 2- Parti communiste biélorusse (7 tonnes) 3- Entreprise Bielminal (14,2 mb) 4- Entreprise Bielpharm (4 mb) 5- Directeur du cabinet de la présidence (6 mb) 6- Entreprise Lada (2 mb)
Roumanie
1- Ylef Adrelnec (1 mb) 2- Parti du Travail roumain (5,5 mb)
Grande Bretagne
1- George Galloway / Fawwaz Zreikate (19 mb) 2- Moudjahidin du peuple (36,5 mb)
Canada
1- Arthur Mel Holland (9,6 mb)
Etats-Unis
1- Chaker Khafaji (7 mb) 2- Samir Vest. (10,5 mb)
Tchad
1- Ministre des Affaires étrangères (3 mb)
Thaïlande
1- Exportateur du riz Gaïborn (9,5 mb)
Panama
1- Monsieur Sifane (11,5 mb)
Hongrie
1- Parti de l'Intérêt hongrois (4,7 mb)
Afrique du Sud
1- Envium Manangment (Sandi Majali) (9 mb) 2- Tokyo Sixweel (4 mb) 3- Montica (4 mb) 4- Omni Adil (4 mb)
Philippines
1- Consortium des producteurs philippins (3 mb)
Pays-Bas
1- Say Polt (3 mb)
France
1- Adax (3 / 8 mb) 2- Traficora (Patrick Mougin) (25 mb) 3- Michel Grimard (1 / 17 mb) 4- Association d'amitié franco-arabe (15,1 mb) 5- X (47,2 mb) 6- Charles Pasqua (12 mb) 7- Elias Ferzli (14,6 mb) 8- A Lotus (Claude Caspar) (4 mb) 9- Bernard Miramé (3 mb) 10- Bernard Miramé (8 mb) 11- Di Suza (11 mb)
Chine
1- Monsieur Juan (39,1 mb) 2- Noresco (17,5 mb) 3- Zyng Rong (13 mb) 4- Byourg (13,5 mb) 5- Thouth Holken (1 mb)
Jordanie
1- Leïth Chbaïlate (15,5 mb) 2- Fakhri Kaouar (6 mb) 3- Grands Ressources (2 mb) 4- Al-Rachid International (Ahmed Al Bachir) (9 mb) 5- Fawwaz Zreikate (6 mb) 6- Salem Naass (6 mb) 7- Ziyad Ragheb (7 mb) 8- Machhour Hadissa (4 mb) 9- Chaker Bin Zaïd (6,5 mb) 10- Mohammed Saleh Hourani (4 mb) 11- Toujane Al Fayçal (3 mb) 12- Ministère de l'Energie (5 mb) 13- Ziyad Yaghmour (2 mb) 14- Wamid Hussein (1 mb)
Palestine
1- Abou Abbas (11,5 mb) 2- Abdallah Hourani (8 mb) 3- Wafa Toufik Sayegh (3,5 mb) 4- OLP (4 mb) 5- FPLP (5 mb) 6- Département politique de l'OLP (5 mb)
Égypte
1- Incom (Mohammed Chattate) (14 mb) 2- Abdelazim Manaf (6 mb) 3- Khaled Gamal Abdel Nacer (16,5 mb) 4- Imad Jelda (14 mb) 5- Mohammed Salah (7 mb) 6- Mohammed Helmi (4,5 mb) 7- Entreprises arabes unies (6 mb) 8- Entreprise Nil-Euphrate (3 mb) 9- Mahmoud Majdi Maasraoui (7 mb) 10- Entreprise Alhami Bachandi (2 mb) 11- Entreprise Moultaka al Daouli (2 mb)
Liban
1- BP Energy (2 mb) 2- Fadi Almieh (2 mb) 3- Haïtham Sidani (2 mb) 4- Planet Petrolium (1 mb) 5- Georges Tarkhanian (7 mb) 6- Le fils du président Lahoud (4,5 mb) 7- Ali Tohmé (1 mb) 8- Entreprise Al Hilal (Adnan Janabi) (1 mb) 9- Entreprise internationale pour le commerce et l'investissement (3 mb) 10- Fayçal Dernaïka (3 mb) 11- FIM Oil (1 mb) 12- Najah Wakim (3 mb) 13- Oussama Maarouf (3 mb) 14- Zouhair Al Khatib (3,5 mb)
Bahreïn
1- Entreprise Kazem Darrazi (2 mb) 2- Ent. Ali Al Mouslem (3 mb) 3- Ent. Concret pour constructions (2 mb)
Arabie Saoudite
1 - Entreprise Naja (3 mb) 2 - ASSIS entreprise (2 mb)
Qatar
1- Hamas Ali Al Thani (14 mb) 2- Dalimi Group (4 mb) 3- Gulf Petrolium (2 mb) 4- Petrolina Oil (2 mb) 5- Entreprise d'entretien des puits pétroliers (2 mb)
Libye
1- Choukri Ghanem (1 mb)
Brésil
1- Fouad Sarhane (10 mb) 2- Mouvement du 8 octobre (Chaviez) (4,5 mb)
Irlande
1- Riad Taher (11 mb) 2- Afro Eastern (2 mb)
Nigeria
1- Haisson (7,2 mb) 2- Entreprise ZAZ (7,5 mb) 3- Entreprise IEG (ambassadeur du Nigeria) (1 mb) 4- Campaq (4 mb)
Kenya
1- Mohammed Othman Saïd (10,5 mb)
Bulgarie
1- Parti socialiste bulgare (12 mb) 2- Arak Pol (2 mb)
Autriche
1- Hunz Kolger (3 mb) 2- Association arabo-autrichienne (1 mb)
Suisse
1- Media (2 mb) 2- Delta Service (2 mb) 3- Iblom (1 mb) 4- Sepool (2 mb) 5- Klinko (12 mb) 6- Lakia (2 mb) 7- Alkon (23 mb) 8- Toros (8 mb) 9- Petrogas (5 mb) 10- Finar (21 mb) 11- Napkes (3 mb)
Slovaquie
1- Parti communiste slovaque (4 mb)
Ukraine
1- Parti démocrate social (8,5 mb) 2- Parti communiste ukrainien (6 mb) 3- Energy Ressources (2 mb) 4- Naphto Gas (8 mb) 5- Vasmach Imbex (2 mb) 6- Hu (Sokolov) (5 mb) 7- Orchatski (4,5 mb) 8- Fider Alti Torkomvki (1 mb) 9- Trans Esco (1 mb) 10- Maison Ukrainienne (10 mb) 11- FTD (2 mb) 12- Parti socialiste ukrainien (2 mb)
Russie
Les documents concernant la Russie font ressortir des dons de l'ordre de 1,336 milliard de barils. Cette précision concerne seulement les dons à l'Etat de Russie. Quant aux particuliers, organisations et partis : la liste s'établie comme suit :
1. Ent. Zarabachkand (176,5 mb) 2- Russ Napht Embex (Azakof du cabiet présidentiel) (86,9 mb, dont 1 mb qui revient à l'ambassadeur russe à Bagdad). 3- Les entreprise du Parti communiste russe (137 mb) 4- Amercom (ministère des situations d'urgences) (57 mb) 5- Entreprise M-chino-import (83,5 mb) 6- Alpha Eco (ministère des Affaires étrangères) (128,8 mb) 7- Petromin (Ministère des Affaires étrangères) (30,1 mb) 8- Slav Naphte (Gotisrev 25,5 mb) 9- Zan Gas (49,1 mb) 10- Russ Napht (35,5 mb) 11- Kazine Invest (8,5 mb) 12- Kalm Napht-Gas (7,5 mb) 13- Gasprom (26 mb) 14- Tat Napht (Tatarestan) (64,5 mb) 15- Bach Napht (12 mb) 16- Louk Oil (64 mb) 17- Sergot Napht(-Gas (4 mb) 18- Siberia Napht-Gas (1 mb) 19- Naphta Moscou (25,1 mb) 20- Onaco (22,2 mb) 21- Sidanco (21,2 mb) 22- Sibnapht (8,1 mb) 23- Trans Napht (9 mb) 24- Yokos (2 mb) 25- Entreprises du parti libéral démocrate (Jérinovski) (79,8 mb) 26- Entreprises du parti de la paix et de l'unité (34 mb) 27- Comité russe de solidarité avec l'Irak (6,5 mb) 28- Association russe de solidarité avec l'Irak (12,5 mb) 29- Russ Napht-Gas export (12,5 mb) 30- Oral Invest (8,5 mb) 31- Académie moscovite des sciences (3,5 mb) 32- Raoumine (fils de l'ancien ambassadeur à Bagdad 19,7 mb) 33- Université Gopken (3,5 mb) 34- Group Northwest (2 mb) 35- Gas Prom (Monsieur Hassan 3 mb dont 1 million livré) 36- Nicolas Rijkov (13 mb) 37- Story Napht & Gas (6 mb) 38- Akht Napht (4,5 mpb) 39- Administration tchétchène (2 mb) 40- Adel Hilaoui (A.N.M aviation) (5 mb) 41- Khrouzelt (5 mb) 42- Trans Naphta (3 mb) 43- Directeur du cabinet présidentiel (5 mb) 44- Eglise orthodoxe de Russie (5 mb) 45- Parti nationaliste russe (2 mb)
-
Originally posted by deSelys
Because, my friend, all this so-called proofs of the french treachery seem to be as volatile as the WMDs which were the main reason to inva....oops sorry
....oops, sorry.
WMD class weapons have been found in Iraq, since the war started, that have the potential to kill 500,000 people. Iraq had an active nuclear program, some of the hardware that they payed for to promote this program has been found, and displayed to the major media.
The contacts with al-quaida have been substantiated.
The attempts to purchase yellowcake from African nations have been substantiated.
The fact that the evidence of these findings have been ignored by the major news outlets is telling. They could have reported them without drawing conclusions, just reported what has been found out.
-
Originally posted by deSelys
Ripsnort, a quote without a source is hot air.
And IF it is true, why don't you go after Russia first? Too big for you?
ABC news. This was all over the world news a year ago, where were you?
The thread is about the French, not the Russians.
-
Lazerus, good boy...
All check!
(http://www.hermes-press.com/soldier.jpg)
Don't you think that if significant WMDs had been found, GWB would use the findings to support his re-election campaign?? The silence is deafening.
Ripsnort: yes, I've already heard about that. I don't say that it is false, but the proofs are weak and unconclusive at best.
And about the arm sales in violation of the UN sanctions taken after the 1st Gulf War, according to Amnesty international the culprits are Russia, China & Portugal.
France sold Mirages F1, Gazelle helicopters and missiles to Iraq before 1991. While USA, UK and Germany supported the Iraq WMD chemical program.
The arm sales after 1991 have been done by Eastern Europe countries.
Source (http://web.amnesty.org/pages/ttt4-article_7-eng) and source (http://www.folium.ro/world-encyclopedia/iraq/99.htm)
-
Originally posted by Ripsnort
http://www.wlo-usa.org/Intl%20Opinion/french_connection.html
That article likens Nayoufs treatment by the French intelligence agencies to those used by their Syrian counterparts which seems biased to me. He spent 9 years in prison in Syria and needed urgent medical attention on release (in France, after French diplomatic efforts had him released) as opposed to being interviewed for several hours by the French DST.
Quote from the article -
Recently, he revealed three potentially explosive documents that he says connect Syria, France and Iraq to episodes involving hidden Iraqi WMDs and election bribery
These documents show Jaques Chiracs re election campaign partly funded by Iraq and maps showing possible locations of Iraqi WMDs in Syria. They imply the DST stole them, and substantiate this by the fact that the DST later asked him for his password.
We’re meant to believe that Najouf had encrypted these documents so well that the French secret service had to ask him for his password? Good man, though not making any backups seems a bit of an oversight.
Another quote -
The documents, which Nayouf acquired from sources in the Middle East, have captured the attention of media outlets in the U.S. and abroad.
Funny that, because I cant find a trace. The fact he claims to have these documents and his claims they were stolen by the French DST has some attention, not the documents themselves, because no ones seen them.
I thought the anguished plea at the end by Najoufs colleague that the US should step in and protect him from the evil French was a nice touch, think it shows the articles authors true agenda. They should have just called that article ‘Reasons to Nuke France’ and have done with it.
-
Originally posted by deSelys
Ripsnort: yes, I've already heard about that. I don't say that it is false, but the proofs are weak and unconclusive at best.
Weak and inconclusive? Well, there was enough proof to begin a full investigation. Denial is not a river in Egypt, deSelys.
Paul Volcker, the former chairman of the U.S. Federal Reserve, has begun a high-level investigation into allegations of kickbacks and bribes in the U.N.-run oil-for-food programme for Iraq.
Volcker assumed his post as head of a three-man team after he was assured that all 15 members of the U.N. Security Council adopted a resolution to back the investigation,
which will include a probe of contracts with Iraq around the world.
"We will be following the money as well as we can," Volcker Volcker told a news conference.
"I wanted a resolution to make sure that member governments and member states knew what they were getting into," he said.
The council's resolution called "on member states, including their national regulatory authorities, to cooperate fully by all appropriate means with the inquiry."
Under the now-defunct programme, Iraq was permitted to sell oil in order to buy civilian goods. Its purpose was to ease the impact on ordinary Iraqis of sanctions imposed after the 1991 Gulf War.
There is mounting evidence that the United Nations Oil-for-Food program, originally conceived as a means of providing humanitarian aid to the Iraqi people, was subverted by Saddam Hussein's regime and manipulated to help prop up the Iraqi dictator. Saddam's dictatorship was able to siphon off an estimated $10 billion from the Oil-for-Food program through oil smuggling and systematic thievery, by demanding illegal payments from companies buying Iraqi oil, and through kickbacks from those selling goods to Iraq--all under the noses of U.N. bureaucrats. The members of the U.N. staff administering the program have been accused of gross incompetence, mismanagement, and possible complicity with the Iraqi regime in perpetrating the biggest scandal in U.N. history.
-
Originally posted by deSelys
Don't you think that if significant WMDs had been found, GWB would use the findings to support his re-election campaign??
Your reaction is the reason that it won't be used.
Exactly how much is enough? Is the potential to kill 500,000 people not enough for you? Regardless of what is found, it will never be enough for those that want to deny it. You did choose to ignore several other issues as well.
The picture you posted is absurd, and the text below it non-factual. I can only hope that you will take the time to research facts, not opinionated conclusions, and base your beliefs on what you conclude, not on what others tell you to believe.
All I can suggest is to expand your resources. Read from both sides, and, if you can find them, reports that have no sides.
-
And BTW, don't forget to vote this November!!!
-
You don't need proofs to begin an investigation. Rumours are enough.
OTOH you'd better have some at the end of it if you want a condemnation.
But 'denial is not a river in Egypt' cracked me up, thanks :lol
-
So french aren't allowed to export weapon technology, but americans are?
Let's not forget americans have also exported technology certain parts of middle east, asia, south america....
Certainly also to countries which falls in same caterogy with Iraq.
-
Paul Volcker! Speaking of..... I wish they'd hire him to find the missing billions Halliburton can't account for.
-
Originally posted by Fishu
So french aren't allowed to export weapon technology, but americans are?
Let's not forget americans have also exported technology certain parts of middle east, asia, south america....
Certainly also to countries which falls in same caterogy with Iraq.
Do the words "Cooperative UN embargo" mean ANYTHING to you?
-
Originally posted by Ripsnort
Do the words "Cooperative UN embargo" mean ANYTHING to you?
Cooperative UN embargo=oxymoron
-
Originally posted by GScholz
No it hasn't. Provide evidence.
No they hadn't. Provide evidence.
No it hasn't. Provide evidence.
No it hasn't. Provide evidence.
There is no evidence to ignore.
It all has, go find it yourself. I assume you're old enough to be able to do the research. I did. And no, I'm not going to help you. It's not my job to educate you. That particular task 'lies' with the EU. Lazs convinced you of one thing, which amazes me beyond belief. But I don't have the desire to sell you on the facts as he does.
-
Lazerus,
None of those statements are true in the context that you would have others to believe. Simply not true..
-
Originally posted by TheDudeDVant
Lazerus,
None of those statements are true in the context that you would have others to believe. Simply not true..
That I would have others believe?? There are facts and there are lies. Everything I posted is a fact. The degree of what you call proof is what is in question.
My opinion on the matter is obvious. I have researched and read many reports, not editorials. My position is based from that. If you can lead me to evidence that you think will contradict the reports I've read, then show me. I stated that it's not my role to educate anyone, as it's not yours to educate me. I've found everything I can on the subject. If you have resources I don't, lead this horse to the river.
-
Originally posted by GScholz
Either you are lying, or you have been lied to by liars.
Objectivity and logic are wonderfull tools to sift through the BS that is shoved down our throats everyday. I was typing while you were, you posted first, read my post. Seek other sources and I will do the same.
Lazs and I have always agreed on weapon bans. [/B]
For some reason I thought you were against it at one point and changed your point of view from Lazs posts. I guess I should go back and search the bbs to see who that was. Sorry for the mix-up.
-
Originally posted by Ripsnort
Do the words "Cooperative UN embargo" mean ANYTHING to you?
Nuh huh.. US hasn't exactly been the brightest example either with the international treaties.
-
Iraq had no bomb project: Expert (http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2003/10/26/1067103268280.html?from=storyrhs&oneclick=true)
Australia's top expert on Iraq's weapons has said prewar coalition claims that Iraq was importing the components of a nuclear weapons program - including aluminium tubes for use in centrifuges - were wrong.
Brigadier-General Stephen Meekin, who commands a 500-strong unit with primary responsibility for collecting Iraq's illicit military technology, made the revelations to The Washington Post.
Based on documents and interviews with arms investigators from the United States, Britain and Australia, the Washington Post investigation found that the central assertions of the Bush Administration's prewar nuclear case against Saddam Hussein were insubstantial or untrue.
Although Saddam did not relinquish his nuclear ambitions or technical records, investigators said, it was now clear he had no active program to build a weapon, produce its key materials or obtain the technology he needed for either.
Among the closely held internal judgements of the Iraq Survey Group, overseen by David Kay as special representative of CIA director George Tenet, are that Iraq's nuclear weapons scientists did no significant arms-related work after 1991, that facilities with suspicious new construction proved benign, and that equipment of potential use to a nuclear program remained under seal or in civilian industrial use.
Tronsky