Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: 68DevilM on September 08, 2004, 01:33:52 PM
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senerio is
190d-9 against a spit 9 same alt, same player skill level.
whos probably gonna win.
just wondering becuase im still confused about this env system, the dora is perked higher than spit but according to the kill stats this month the dora has a ton more kills of the spit for this month and last and probably farther back that that!
then why is the spit perked lower than the dora if it gets killed by the dora more than the spit killing the dora?
190d-9 has 198 kills of the spit 9
spit 9 has 117 kils of the 190d-9
last month
190d-9 had 680 kills of the spit 9
spit 9 has 417 kills of the 190d-9
if its becuase the spit can out turn the 190, what about the speed advantage of the 190 over the spit.
just dont get it:confused:
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im assuming there both co alt and co e.
the spit 9.
the kill difference you see is because of the way either is flown, spit as a down in the dirt tnb, the 190 as a bnz
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Dora gets to choose when and where to fight - SPit is forced onto the defensive and has to hope the Dora pilot is stupid enough to play the Spits game.
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Apples and oranges.
You can't say "190d-9 against a spit 9 same alt, same player skill level" and then use stats from fights that obviously do not meet those criteria.
They are both good planes with different abilities.
Which one will win?
The one that's flown best.
The one that shoots best.
The one that's luckiest.
The one that survives the head on collision.
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Dora has never had more kills than the spit 9 for a tour
never even colse really.
go to this site:
http://www.hitechcreations.com/scores/stats.html
and querry plane vs. plane
choose what you want then choos against "Any"
look at tours going back, there's 56 of them LOL
spit 9 lower ENY, so it is not being used nearly as much this tour, so stats are abnormal, but if you plot the trend you will see the real data.
to answer question, Spit IX will win if they both have the same E. if the 190 has a huge advantage in E it can escape, but ever match the spit 9 in most aspects other then top end speed.
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you have to look at the k/d ratio of each plane to have an idea of it's effectiveness...my guess is the Dora has a far higher k/d than the Spit
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Originally posted by _Schadenfreude_
you have to look at the k/d ratio of each plane to have an idea of it's effectiveness...my guess is the Dora has a far higher k/d than the Spit
merely because of the girlyman way it and other bnz rides are flown.
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The Fw190D-9 controls that fight. It is for the Dora to win or lose or draw. The Spitfire has relatively little say in the matter as it is completely outclassed.
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Spit 9 outclassed by dora.lololololol. 190 has more kills to deaths because dweebs can vulch the runway 3 times spraying before they get caught or run home.
If both had same skill level they would look at each other and go opposite ways lol. Not a smart fight for either one on one. Spit would make first move winning the merge (assumin no ho) and dora would be forced on the defensive..dora extends..alot..then comes back for a bnz..however spitty knows this and has run away to get e back. etc. etc. A matter of fact 2 pilots with same skill level and etc. would always be a stale mate would it not? unless its a drastic diff. in plane's.
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Depends on what skill level they both are at, if both are noobs, the spit will win the fight because the 190 will try and turn with it. If both are excellent pilots the 190 takes it because he will extend from the spit gain an E advantage and dictate the fight.
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Originally posted by jaxxo
Spit 9 outclassed by dora.lololololol. 190 has more kills to deaths because dweebs can vulch the runway 3 times spraying before they get caught or run home.
If both had same skill level they would look at each other and go opposite ways lol. Not a smart fight for either one on one. Spit would make first move winning the merge (assumin no ho) and dora would be forced on the defensive..dora extends..alot..then comes back for a bnz..however spitty knows this and has run away to get e back. etc. etc. A matter of fact 2 pilots with same skill level and etc. would always be a stale mate would it not? unless its a drastic diff. in plane's.
You got that right jaxxo ...
A matter of fact 2 pilots with same skill level and etc. would always be a stale mate would it not?
It would then depend upon who got bored first which would then determine the outcome.
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Originally posted by JB73
Dora has never had more kills than the spit 9 for a tour
never even colse really.
go to this site:
http://www.hitechcreations.com/scores/stats.html
and querry plane vs. plane
choose what you want then choos against "Any"
look at tours going back, there's 56 of them LOL
spit 9 lower ENY, so it is not being used nearly as much this tour, so stats are abnormal, but if you plot the trend you will see the real data.
to answer question, Spit IX will win if they both have the same E. if the 190 has a huge advantage in E it can escape, but ever match the spit 9 in most aspects other then top end speed.
i did that and it still say the spit has been killed more by the dora
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Originally posted by SlapShot
A matter of fact 2 pilots with same skill level and etc. would always be a stale mate would it not?
i would disagree with that.
if you are talking about 2 different planes, but pilots who have the same skill...
well here are some examples:
pretend each pilot has 3 months under belt, and knows a few simple moves, and does not try an HO every pass. other than that they has no real ACM knowledge like myself for example (except i sadly have 2.5 years in not 3 months).
Pilot A in an A6m5b
Pilot B in a La7
i doubt that would be a stalemate.
Pilot A in a 109g10 with no gondolas
Pilot B in an FM2
another that i dont beileve would be a stalemate.
i can think of a bunch of matchups where 1 plane clearly gives a polit an advantage over another plane. this is not talking about a great pilot in a lesser plane being about to beat some n00b in a "hot rod"... but like mentioned in the first post, equal pilots
oh well my 2¢
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Originally posted by 68DevilM
i did that and it still say the spit has been killed more by the dora
look at not kills of, but total kills for the tour.
tour 55:
The Spitfire Mk IX has 17200 kills and has been killed 17071 times.
The Fw 190D-9 has 14912 kills and has been killed 9107 times
tour 54:
The Spitfire Mk IX has 22828 kills and has been killed 22356 times
The Fw 190D-9 has 16842 kills and has been killed 9918 times
tour 53:
The Spitfire Mk IX has 29901 kills and has been killed 27004 times
The Fw 190D-9 has 12375 kills and has been killed 7516 times.
tour 52:
The Spitfire Mk IX has 35038 kills and has been killed 33060 times
The Fw 190D-9 has 12269 kills and has been killed 8074 times.
285% advantage
tour 51:
The Spitfire Mk IX has 48561 kills and has been killed 44348 times
The Fw 190D-9 has 14238 kills and has been killed 9245 times
341% advantage
tour 50:
The Spitfire Mk IX has 44874 kills and has been killed 41585 times.
The Fw 190D-9 has 15256 kills and has been killed 10227 times
294% advantage
a few in BOLD stand out
you get the idea. though the numbers are changing because of the ENY thing, the 190d is no "uber" main arena terror some on the BBS say. heck do the same thing with the numbers against the La7 and 190d and be ready for a shock LOL
oh well my 2¢
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JB73,
The numbers are changing faster due to the ENY thing, but they were changing before. The answer is simple: speed. AH2 favors fast aircraft juast as WWII did. The gunnery changes have helped fast aircraft and hurt slow aircraft.
If I were the Fw190D-9 pilot I'd get some steam up and then take the fight verticle. The power and speed of the Fw190D-9 would overwelm the Spitfire F.Mk IX's ability to match the Fw190 for long and going verticle keeps you over the Spit so that he cannot try to escape.
Bleed the Spit's E out and kill it.
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LOL 73 ... that wasn't my quote ... I bolded it and then answered it.
As far as I am concerned, there is never a stalemate.
Somebody dies ... the Spit or the Dora ... or somebody runs away ... which would be the Dora ... which is a loss in my book.
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cc that... whoever said it, i disagree with it LOL
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Originally posted by JB73
look at not kills of, but total kills for the tour.
tour 55:
The Spitfire Mk IX has 17200 kills and has been killed 17071 times.
The Fw 190D-9 has 14912 kills and has been killed 9107 times
tour 54:
The Spitfire Mk IX has 22828 kills and has been killed 22356 times
The Fw 190D-9 has 16842 kills and has been killed 9918 times
tour 53:
The Spitfire Mk IX has 29901 kills and has been killed 27004 times
The Fw 190D-9 has 12375 kills and has been killed 7516 times.
tour 52:
The Spitfire Mk IX has 35038 kills and has been killed 33060 times
The Fw 190D-9 has 12269 kills and has been killed 8074 times.
285% advantage
tour 51:
The Spitfire Mk IX has 48561 kills and has been killed 44348 times
The Fw 190D-9 has 14238 kills and has been killed 9245 times
341% advantage
tour 50:
The Spitfire Mk IX has 44874 kills and has been killed 41585 times.
The Fw 190D-9 has 15256 kills and has been killed 10227 times
294% advantage
a few in BOLD stand out
you get the idea. though the numbers are changing because of the ENY thing, the 190d is no "uber" main arena terror some on the BBS say. heck do the same thing with the numbers against the La7 and 190d and be ready for a shock LOL
oh well my 2¢
i dont know what im doing wrong then?
these are the stat's im getting for this tour useing the ah scores page
im entering options for model vs. model 190d-9 vs. spit 9 and it says
Fw 190D-9 has 204 Kills of Spitfire Mk IX
Spitfire Mk IX has 117 Kills of Fw 190D-9
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delete by me
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so the reason its perked so lo is becuase its used more, thats the system?
thought it was becuase it was a better plane
wow and it took me all those post's to figure it out:o
who thought this system up!
all those kills (well earned) totals for the spit 9 are probably mostly for eating up all the hordes during defence. i dont think for offence it is a very good plane, not like the vulching dora though, another one is the yak, and la5 hi perked planes that are excellent for vulching.
is that the name of the game, i guess id better grab an la7 and start vulching! wait another low perked plane, so what is it about the dora that makes it any harder to get kills in?
i suppose the whineing go's farther back than when i first started playing this game, and it wouldnt surprise me if the way things are now are becuase someone, somewhere started whineing to get things the way they are now.
either way, it will never change the way everybody likes it.
by the way jb, wasnt frustrated, just hit me like a ton of bricks. its the system that did'nt make any sense.
ive been killed by pleanty dora's and only can kill one usually if they get stupid or i can catch em and that's only when i have alt, dora's can get away from me, as well as most of the fighters. still dont see how the spitty has the advantage if he can even catch the dora.
hell the spit 9 is env. just about evenly as the la7, p51d, but has half the speed?
then theres the typh. whats that planes env. value at now? dont tell me the typh dont do some serious damage!
again i thought the system was based on lethality.. yes planes have lower kills that the spit 9 but the only reason for this i thought was becuase it was used so much for defence and fendidng off heavier numbers. no one thinks that should be rewarded with perks? dont tell me it doesnt take skill to kill four five guys on defence when your out numbered 5 to one? when alot of people take fast planes into a field and vulch ten of em before most of them get off the deck, spits useually to slow for this, and if not the ack's gonna tear him up, dora's fast enough for the ack.
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Originally posted by Karnak
JB73,
The numbers are changing faster due to the ENY thing, but they were changing before. The answer is simple: speed. AH2 favors fast aircraft juast as WWII did. The gunnery changes have helped fast aircraft and hurt slow aircraft.
If I were the Fw190D-9 pilot I'd get some steam up and then take the fight verticle. The power and speed of the Fw190D-9 would overwelm the Spitfire F.Mk IX's ability to match the Fw190 for long and going verticle keeps you over the Spit so that he cannot try to escape.
Bleed the Spit's E out and kill it.
see id like to see the env. system based on this. 190 has the advantage over the spit! so stop pentalizeing the spit just because it gets more kills. pentalize the dora for haveing the advantage over the spit!
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Originally posted by 68DevilM
i dont know what im doing wrong then?
these are the stat's im getting for this tour useing the ah scores page
im entering options for model vs. model 190d-9 vs. spit 9 and it says
Fw 190D-9 has 204 Kills of Spitfire Mk IX
Spitfire Mk IX has 117 Kills of Fw 190D-9
to find the stats im showing choos the plane you want, then for "against" pick "ANY" but do not select a specific plane.
there is someone out there that compiles all plane stats into an excel file for online viewing...
also this link shows the current tour:
http://www.innomi.com/ahkillstats/totalstats.php?
as for how the spit IX compares, it is subjective. Karnak is right, the MA is becomming more like "real" WWII with speed being the key to survival.
that started with the release of AHII right away, and the damage model being more precise.... hence need to be closer to kill.
i will say this, with a semi-skilled pilot it is relatively easy to survive in the spit IX against most planes with a few exceptions. when i am "dweebing out" and not flying LW only (our squad allows this 1 week every 3 months) i fly the spit IX and rack up more kills in it than any LW plane for the month usually.
on a side note, i noticed the panzer stats for last full tour:
The Panzer IV H has 79428 kills and has been killed 75914 times.
LOL
me thinks AH is changing more than we all think
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right right!
just looked up stat's for total kills for the dora against all models
(just this tour)
4365kills
spit 9=3877 kills
am i looking at this right, now?
wait im confused now!
werent we discussing the fact that the dora has more kills?
makeing it seem it has the advantage? then why give it a better env? than the spit when the la7 is perked low too. and the pony? thier speedy planes.
im confusing myself again:confused:
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you got it right...
now for the tour look at back tours.
like we all said the MA is changing, AND with the ENY limiter, the spit IX is not being used nearly as much because it can't be.
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On the merge all the d9 has to do is enter a gentle climb, if the spit does a 180 it will not be able to follow. The d9 will gain the advantage and can commence to bnz the spit with impunity.
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Originally posted by JB73
you got it right...
now for the tour look at back tours.
like we all said the MA is changing, AND with the ENY limiter, the spit IX is not being used nearly as much because it can't be.
well that sucks for the pilots who love the spitty and know how to use it, guess i'd better grab a 109 like everyone else.
but the would that mke the spit's env anybetter eventually?
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wow look at the spt 9's k/d ratio!
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you know what "scares" me about these stats?
the "big 4" of old (spit IX, LA7, P51, N1k2) are being phased out...
and the player will "whine" about the new top planes saying they shoudl be perked.
i have strongly been against the 190d being perked.
in the history of AH that i have looked at the 190d has never been in the top 8-10 of killers, and is not an "uber" ride some say it is. personally i have carried a lifetime K/D of 1.93 in the 190d
yes that is a decent K/D only because i spend SOOO much time in it. im not a good pilot, but there are people with lifetime K/D in the pony for example of higher than 4.
if perking a plane is based solely on performance the 190d doesn't match up with anything except speed.
if based solely on usage or kill% in the MA it has never come close to the numbers of the "big 4".
i guess one of 2 things is the case:
im a sucky pilot
or the 190d is not an "uber" ride.
probably the former, but i know i can fight with some players.
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yeah my overall stat's for the spit 9 is a 2 something but this month alone i have a 5.08
wich mean im a spit dweeb:lol
tryed the la5 tonight for the first time and got 2 kills easy. hmm mabey im flying the wrong plane, always felt i had to work preety hard sometimes in that spit though:)
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lol just checked your stats jb just for ****'s and giggles.
spit 9 has the second highest kills on you
and your second highest killing of is the spit 9
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Originally posted by 68DevilM
lol just checked your stats jb just for ****'s and giggles.
spit 9 has the second higest kills on you
we should get a 190d-9 spit9 senerio going:lol
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but i do carry a 1.33 positive K/D against them hehehhee
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umm i have a
1.68 k/d against the dora
is it the lower it go's the better or the higher?
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4 K/d meand you kill 4 for every one that kills you
hence you have higher K/D against doras than i do VS spit IX
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this tour you are carrying a 5+ skill ratio in the spit IX against the whole community
meaning you are doing 5 times better than the rest of the community in the spit IX than everyone else
still think is' a non-uber ride?
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thats good right? 5 times better?
how do i check my k/d ratio from the last couple months?
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Originally posted by Karnak
If I were the Fw190D-9 pilot I'd get some steam up and then take the fight verticle. The power and speed of the Fw190D-9 would overwelm the Spitfire F.Mk IX's ability to match the Fw190 for long and going verticle keeps you over the Spit so that he cannot try to escape.
Bleed the Spit's E out and kill it.
If i were the spit pilot and we would be fightin till death.Then i´d simply decrese my boost setting and evade him till he runs out of fuel.Then blow him away as he is deadstick.:D
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Originally posted by 68DevilM
thats good right? 5 times better?
how do i check my k/d ratio from the last couple months?
can't only currnet month.
HTC does have a "expanded kill stats" under scored, but only gives numbers you have to do math yourself
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Originally posted by One0One
If i were the spit pilot and we would be fightin till death.Then i´d simply decrese my boost setting and evade him till he runs out of fuel.Then blow him away as he is deadstick.:D
unless 190 been up for a while your spit will run outta fuel LONG before dora does
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Originally posted by JB73
unless 190 been up for a while your spit will run outta fuel LONG before dora does
Did a few quick tests.
Spit IX 100% fuel max power E6B says 48 mins,with a dt 85 mins
190-D9 100% fuel max power E6B says 52 mins,with a dt 83 mins
These tests were done offline with FBR set at 1.0
According to this,saying the Spit would run out LONG before the 190 is exagerating.In AH2 the Spit IX would win a 1 on 1 fight till death fight (both pilots at a close skill level).Imho the Spit pilot should easily be able to avoid any kind of an attack from the 190 but would have difficulties downing him.The 190s only chance would be wife ack or some idiot ringin the other guy´s doorbell and calling him at the same time(some people just don´t have manners).;)
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Originally posted by JB73
this tour you are carrying a 5+ skill ratio in the spit IX against the whole community
meaning you are doing 5 times better than the rest of the community in the spit IX than everyone else
still think is' a non-uber ride?
well i dont care if people call me a spit dweeb, im still preety damn good in it, but i think it is time for a change?
hmm come on la5:D
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want a challange?
try a 109g2 for a tour
or a 190 A5
carry 4+ k/d you'd be great
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Originally posted by One0One
If i were the spit pilot and we would be fightin till death.Then i´d simply decrese my boost setting and evade him till he runs out of fuel.Then blow him away as he is deadstick.:D
Go ahead and decrease your boost. It'll just mean I kill you quicker as your E will bleed out that much faster.
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Depends.. I'd say Spit 9 wins or it is a draw. The D9s only option is a lazy bore n zoom type offense, or to run away. If the D9 commits hard, it is only a matter of seconds before the Spit 9 would have the advantage.. and if the D9 commits hard.. it can't get away because the Spit 9 accelerates better. If it doesn't commit hard, the Spit can evade its lazy bore n zoom passes, while building up energy faster than the D9 can. Eventually, the spit will be able to chase the D9 up and hose it while the D9 is hung over at the top of its Immelman.
Unless the D9 goes for the treemendously boring approach of "extending" straight for a sector before beginning a gentle climb to get above the Spit. And even then they'd be up past 20k, where the D9 starts losing steam, and the Spit 9 starts coming into its own as a energy fighter.
The 190 (all of them) is a spectacularly crappy 1v1 plane. Turn rate and radius are both awe-inspiringly poor, climb rate and zoom are unimpressive, and acceleration is mediocre (except in a dive). Low speed handling varies from poor in the A5 to downright awful in the D9/A8. The A5/A8 have relatively slow top speeds (compared to the 1945 speed demons) and good guns, while the D9 has average guns and decent top speed.
The Spit 9 on the other hand, is a great 1v1 plane. It has my money for the best 1v1 plane in the game. Turn rate and radius are both great, if not outstanding. Climb rate and acceleration are great, low speed handling is superb, acceleration is phenomenal, especially when diving. Firepower is superb, there is no single gun better than the Hispano, in Aces High.
Whereas a bunch of 190s would probably fare pretty well against a bunch of Spitfires, I don't think 1 190 against 1 Spitfire would even be close.
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Originally posted by JB73
want a challange?
try a 109g2 for a tour
or a 190 A5
carry 4+ k/d you'd be great
I tried flyin for K/D one tour but gave up after 3 days.I wasn´t flyin 109s or 190s but my K/D was 24 to 1.So im pretty confident i could do that.I don´t dislike German planes.
And to keep it short Urchin hit the nail on the head.
Go ahead and decrease your boost. It'll just mean I kill you quicker as your E will bleed out that much faster.
I´d go with you to the DA and try it,but im depressed enough from the BnZing in Main arena.
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Given the conditions of AH2, assuming equal pilot skill;
* The Fw190D-9 may not be able to win, but it definately won't lose.
* In the case of the Spit9, it would rarely have to worry about being cornered into a tight spot, but likewise, it'd rarely be able to come in within 400 distance marker of the D-9.
The factor which decides who wins, will be determined by who's got better gunnery, or, who can land a shot first.
Will the fleeting super-high deflection shot connect first? Or will the 400yard spray hit first?
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I'm with Urchin on this one.
In a pack 190s are pretty good and can get good results. But the 190 is one of the worst 1vs1 fighters of the game.
That is because its fast, but only if you dont touch the stick. If you turn, you lose E quick and need time to build it up again.
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68DevilM.. you still here watching?
read Urchin / Kweassa's posts. they know what they are talking about.
they actually give a good example of what would happen in the DA / MA. in the MA the only difference is that fi a fight went on that long someone else would have hopped in by the 3rd or 4th pass and it would no longer be a 1-1.
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Originally posted by 68DevilM
senerio is
190d-9 against a spit 9 same alt, same player skill level.
whos probably gonna win.
This is the question. Using "stats" has nothing to do with the question and cannot be used in any way to justify an answer to the question.
I would venture to say less than 1% of Spit9 vs Dora fights were done by pilots of "equal" skill, therefore the stats are moot.
To answer the question I'd say it depends...
How much fuel each carry.
What altitude.
How long the pilot has flown 'that' plane.
There other factors as well.
PS... what Urchin said. ;)
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68Devil, You were doing pretty good in that la5 last night, are you telling me you just started in that ride?
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Originally posted by JB73
68DevilM.. you still here watching?
read Urchin / Kweassa's posts. they know what they are talking about.
they actually give a good example of what would happen in the DA / MA. in the MA the only difference is that fi a fight went on that long someone else would have hopped in by the 3rd or 4th pass and it would no longer be a 1-1.
how bout a pack of ten spit 9's against ten 190d-9's with a ceiling cap of 15k to 5k below five you have to diengage because i think the spit's would chew up the 190's.
5-10k id give adv. to the 190's above 10k and the spits pick up speed:D
what about the spit 14? nice plane i should fly that more but it has a sucky env value, and i dont like dropping perks like that.
been playing around with the la5, nice plane, powerfull guns too.
lw planes confuse me, how can a plane that roll's so well not beable to turn without dropping so much 'E'? i rarely use them, well fighter's that is.
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Originally posted by 68DevilM
how bout a pack of ten spit 9's against ten 190d-9's with a ceiling cap of 15k to 5k below five you have to diengage because i think the spit's would chew up the 190's.
5-10k id give adv. to the 190's above 10k and the spits pick up speed.
LOL glad to see you have changed your stance starting this thread you couldn't see how the spit IX was better than the 190...
sir, i know it's diffucult to picture all these scenarios without the help of others.
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Depends.. in a "pack vs pack" situation the equation changes. That kind of scenario will be won by A. whichever side has better cohesion/teamwork, helped by B. the ability to stay alive. Running is a much more certain way to stay alive than turning ability.
Eventually, all the Spits will be blindsided by people they never saw coming, while the D-9s will likely never slow down long enough for a Spit to get anything more than a fleeting snapshot at a Dora as it whizzes past. In a multi-vs-multi situation, it is very dangerous to chase someone up, because that leaves you wide open for one of his buddies to drill you while you are hanging there slow.
Even if one D9 gets to aggressive and ends up in trouble, he'll have other D-9s coming down to clear the train off his 6... I would say in that situation it is very likely that none of the Spits would make it home, and only 1 or 2 of the D9s would die.
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I would say if fight is at Spit 9 best alt (25k), only option for Dora is to dive away. Pilots with equal skills should really be a stalemate. Spit pilot will stay as close to 25k as poss, 190 won't get suckered into high alt or turn fight.
Be interseting to see Urchin, low alt I would prob agree, hi alt 20k+ I would give the Spits the advantage. Only option for Doras is boring extends etc. If the spit pilots fly smart and get to around 25k, definately give them a big advantage.
By capping the Spits to 15k your taking away the advantage they have. Remember our Spit 9 is hi-alt 25k version. Would be like having a Spit v LA7 scenario and forcing the LALA to stay above 25k.
Shame we don't have Spit Mk8, definately know who'd win then :).
68DevilM - Spit14 is purely high alt plane, it is outclassed low down. Not worth the current perk value. Although a little more expensive Tempest is far better, goes like a bat outta hell and has awesome (Hispano 2) cannons.