Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Axis vs Allies => Topic started by: Soulyss on September 08, 2004, 06:49:30 PM
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Seems like a trend with my setups lately... back to the Pacific!
lack of terrains makes things a little restrictive still, I actually wanted to run a north africa style setup but without anything approaching a workable terrain I decided against it. Soooo... it's the slot map with a little twist we're going to go for British/Aussie/New Zealand/etc. vs the IJN/IJA this time around.
Planesets:
Allied Landbased
· Spit Vb
· P-40E
· SBD
· A-20
· M-8
· M-16
· M-3
· C-47
Allied Carrier based
· F6F-5
· SBD
· TBM
Axis Landbased
· A6M5b
· Ki-61
· Ki-67 (formations disabled)
· D3A
· B5N
· M-8
· M-16
· M-3
· C-47
Axis Carrier based *
· A6M5b
· D3A
· B5N
Field gunners will be enabled at all fields.
Fuel burn 1.5 (not final, but likely)
Ack .7
Visability 8-10 miles
Radar full
* Note on CV's: One of two things will happen each side will get 1-2 cv's at either 8k or 4k hardness depending on numbers. I want the focus to be on land based air power. Also while gunners will be enabled, lvt's are not. So beaching the cv won't do you any good. :)
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good bye.
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Originally posted by Soulyss
back to the Pacific!
Would it be possible to include the A6M2? Surely there were still some of those floating around at the time.
- oldman
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Yeah.
What Oldman said.
Splash1
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I don't like adding too many planes, because I think part of the fun of the CT is a smaller planeset that makes people fly things that they may not normally consider... but you caught me in a good mood and I think I may be able to squeeze the A6M2 in there :)
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I'm also a fan of the smaller-planeset concept.
If it puts you in even more of a good mood, consider limiting it to carriers, if you like.
:)
In either case ... thanks for the zeke.
Splash1
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if you give the axis a plane
would you give the allies say atleast a an F4u on the carriers??
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The super SpitV on steroids has no place in the CT ever. The people at HTC say that they will not correct the incredibly flawed modelling on this airplane. I suspect that it may be a business decision. It's an attempt to placate the hordes in the MA to keep them from whining about the myraid of bugs in the game and withdrawing from the game altogether. If you will have this model in this plane set you can expect very few opponents to the allies that week. I suggest you leave kill shooter off.
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wouldn't you be better off with the fm2 or f4f for brits? or even the f4u-1/1d? or perhaps seafire?
http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=123121
what time frame/operation(s) are you looking at?
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1. I considered F4F/FM-2 on the allied cv's but I don't have any good info at hand about how much they were used in the pacific outside of U.S. units. I'll admit that I'm fugging a little on time frame, with the limited maps, my main goal with this setup is to do somthing different from the f4f/f4u vs zeke/george in the pto.
The western eto was done two weeks in a row, and eastern eto last week. I really wanted to do a north aftrica but hesitated without the use of a decent terrain.
2. The idea of adding the F4U since "the axis got a plane" is laughable.
3. The spit V is in unless gameplay during the week dictates a change, but the zeke will out turn it, and the Tony is faster below about 10-12k or so. In the event that the spit is overpowering the rest of the planeset I will consider subbing the Hurricane, but for now the spit stays.
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I think it will be fine as it is Soulyss. The SpitV at least will most likely stay and fight not Joust and Extend (TM) like the F4U. I say give it a shot, and if it doesnt work out, nothing is set in stone, you can always change it. Trying new stuff like this is what we need instead of just loading the same 4-5 sets over and over. That set we did with the Spit vs Niki (Kurile Is?) was kinda cool for the same reason, you never see those planes against each other, its usually Spit vs 109/190 or Zeke/Niki vs F4F/F4U.
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FYI, the Spit V is faster than the Ki-61 at low alt, IIRC. The charts on HTC's site are no longer accurate due to the AH1 Spit V having a boost of +12lbs and the AH2 Spit V having a boost of +16lbs.
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I tested the sea level speed and it was about 10 mph faster than what the HTC charts showed. Did the Seafire get the same increase in boost? If not, it might be a better choice.
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interesting karnak I'll keep that in mind, still I think it can be an interesting matchup vs. the ki and the zeke. I plan to be flying axis this week myself.
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Hadn't thought of the seafire as a land based alternative. I'll give that some thought, it should have slightly lower performance than the spit V.
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With the F6F Hellcat on the CVs and the Spit V and P-40E I dont think the allies need anything else. There is no NIK2 in the setup. Its a fair 1943-44 set. Leave it alone.
You could add the F4F-4 for completeness sake, although I doubt many will fly it with the Hellcat available. FM-2 is really a late 44 ride, historically .
...as for the comments regarding the Spitfire V in the CT...all I see is the usual unsubstantiated "Spit bashing", with no proof to back it up. The idea that its overmodelled because of some HTC business conspiracy??? Well, I admit I have not heard that one before, so, B+ for originality, F on content.
I hope the new CT staffers will be more open minded than that however, or in all seriosness, they should step aside.
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I think if I added the f4f I'd be the only one flying it. I love the wildcat. I just wish the A6M2's guns had just a wee bit more oompf to them. Zeke/Wilcat one of my favorite matchups.
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Originally posted by Oldman731
Would it be possible to include the A6M2?
LOL! That Hurri-I you flew so well with last night too fast for ya?
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The overboosted spitV is probably faster than anything in the planeset. This weeks game will be zekes chasing spits who may or may not want to fight. anything else you tell yourself is delusional.
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Sea level tests:
Ki-61: 312 mph wep
Spit V: 315 mph wep
F6F: 328 mph wep <
Just ran them.
Btw the 109F-4 does 330 mph wep, so even the overboosted cheating Spit V is still 15 mph slower. Interesting.
So much for the "Super Spit? 315 mph at sea level, wow, thats incredible, why bother with a F4U-1 now.
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Squire,
I wasn't bashing the Spit or saying it is overmodeled. I was just stating the fact that the chart is no longer accurate.
I like Spits. They were great warplanes.
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try it at 5000 then at 8000 then at 12000. It shouldn't be boosting 16lbs.
Spits are overmodelled in this game.
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I didnt think you were Karnak.
Storch:
Do a speed test and give the #s and compare them to real stats, showing some irregularity big enough to be concerned about. I will be waiting.
You have not produced a single thing that backs up your claim, that Spits (im assuming all of them), are overmodelled past the usual garbage we get from the Spit-bashing-club, that focuses exclusively on any minute detail that may be modelled >< much off, and then go on long diatribes about it, while ignoring every other a/c in AH.
And for info, RAF pilots were running +12 boost in 1940 (100 octane fuel) from Spit I and Hurricane I Merlin XXs, even though it wasnt really cleared for it. They did the same with the Merlin 45, to +16 lbs (100 octane fuel), even though it wasnt "officially" cleared for it untill 1942. But like I say, show me some #s...show me how its faster than its supposed to be to some degree we should care...
Also, engine management and modelling is deliberately simplified for all ac in AH, not just the Spitfire. I would like to see a better model, but right now it is what it is. The most important thing is, do the a/c hit their #s reasonably close.
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Originally posted by Soulyss
I think if I added the f4f I'd be the only one flying it. I love the wildcat. I just wish the A6M2's guns had just a wee bit more oompf to them. Zeke/Wilcat one of my favorite matchups.
I would be flying the F4F. I had an absolute blast in the setup with the A6M2/F4F.
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I'll be looking for you Memnon... :rofl
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Squire/Storch, the current SpitV we have with respect to boost is at odds with all my records. Being my favorite allied aircraft, I've done extensive research on this problem we have. I've got tonnes of materials on the Spitfre and here's what I've dug up.
See my bug report (http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=128141). The engine and the model is not matching (at least in my books it's not matching).
The Forth Fighter Group website has the actual test documents from WWII on the Spitfire V and all it's variants. If it is the 16+ boost Merlin engine, it has WEP for only 3 minutes, not the current 10+ we get now. Great link here. (http://www.fourthfightergroup.com/eagles/aa878.html)
The big engine book I own which I got at a flea market at CFB Trenton, is called "Rolls-Royce Piston Aero Engines – A Designer Remembers", talks very specific about the Merlin 45. It had a very limited boost at 16+ which the pilots often damaged by overheating the engine when engaged. RAF/RCAF pilots loved the Merlin 45 Spitfire V but it's short legs in combat power was problematic. The solution was the Merlin 46 which allowed much longer boost times.
I do believe the SpitfireV model in Aces High II should be the Merlin 46 model with a +12 boost but we have the Merlin 45 boost with the 46 duration.
Grits, yes, the Seafire has the same weird engine that the Spitfire V has.
But then again, what do I know? :rolleyes:
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Originally posted by Mister Fork
Squire/Storch, the current SpitV we have with respect to boost is at odds with all my records. Being my favorite allied aircraft, I've done extensive research on this problem we have. I've got tonnes of materials on the Spitfre and here's what I've dug up.
See my bug report (http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=128141). The engine and the model is not matching (at least in my books it's not matching).
The Forth Fighter Group website has the actual test documents from WWII on the Spitfire V and all it's variants. If it is the 16+ boost Merlin engine, it has WEP for only 3 minutes, not the current 10+ we get now. Great link here. (http://www.fourthfightergroup.com/eagles/aa878.html)
The big engine book I own which I got at a flea market at CFB Trenton, is called "Rolls-Royce Piston Aero Engines – A Designer Remembers", talks very specific about the Merlin 45. It had a very limited boost at 16+ which the pilots often damaged by overheating the engine when engaged. RAF/RCAF pilots loved the Merlin 45 Spitfire V but it's short legs in combat power was problematic. The solution was the Merlin 46 which allowed much longer boost times.
I do believe the SpitfireV model in Aces High II should be the Merlin 46 model with a +12 boost but we have the Merlin 45 boost with the 46 duration.
Grits, yes, the Seafire has the same weird engine that the Spitfire V has.
But then again, what do I know? :rolleyes:
Thank you for the information Fork. I was not going to respond to Warloc. We all have our prejudices and he certainly is as entitled to his as I am to mine. The SpitV wasn't all that or else there would have been no need to develope the model further. It was outclassed by the 190A3 in all aspects except turn radius. That is simply not the case here. The people at HTC know it, have admitted it and have stated that they will not be doing anything about it. It's their game and as a business decision I fully understand it. The only place where this blatant imbalance is a problem is in the CT. The CT is an ignorable piece of HTC's business and honestly If I were on board with them I would totally agree with the decision. In fairness Pyro did state that he would look closely at the data the Crumpp has meticulously and respectfully submitted and consider a possible tweak to the 190's FM. One can only hope. Maybe it will happen in two weeks. :D
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Originally posted by Soulyss
The spit V is in unless gameplay during the week dictates a change, but the zeke will out turn it
I am looking forward to this. A6M2 ate up the Spit I when we had that setup. I am expecting that it will eat the spit 5 as well.
- oldman
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From my first A6M5 vs 2 Spit5's, I can say I think this will be a fun set. :)
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Two things. #1 your link shows the Merlin 45 was capable of +16 lbs boost, and #2 if you run up a Spit V in AH to normal operating temp 1st, you will find the boost gives out after 5 minutes exactly.
*ALL* the fighters in AH get extra boost if you run it "cold" from takeoff. Thats an HTC engine model, and hardly unique to just the Spitfire.
The book I have indicates +16 lbs for 5 minutes with a Merlin 45.
Also, the AH Spit V speeds match the #s from data you will find, as does its climb rate, so in the end its more a debate on what the guage shows as opposed to errors in its FM.
The fact thats it not 100 percent perfect modelling in every respect is not any "proof" of the overblown claims made against its flight modelling, sorry.
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AHI had the SpitfireV with the Merlin46, now it has a Merlin 45 (a step back IMHO). Boost times are very subjective but I'm using the standard on-when-engine-warm scenario. I'm not sure if the SeaFire ever had the Merlin 45 - I think it used a low altitude performance Merlin. I'm at work and can't check my books.
Also Squire, check the boost of the SpitV at various altitudes. It should start dropping back over 8000ft and again at 12000ft. Merlin 45 was a great engine - but more of a low altitude variant.
This scenario should be very interesting to say the least.
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Personally I think this scenario is bogus. I'll try it a bit but I'm not sure it will be good. Like I said leave kill shooter off.
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Seafire IIs had the Merlin 45 and Merlin 46 as well, they were converted Mk Vs. I dont have #s on how many of each. There was a Seafire LIIC, which we dont have in AH, that had a Merlin 50M (low alt engine) I beleive. Seafire III came after that.
I tested it again offline and the wep runs out in 5 minutes maximum, from takeoff cold, or warmed up (go ahead and time it). The "max boost" of +16 lbs starts to drop off after @14,000 ft (at 20k you get +9 lbs max with wep on), which matches the data I have seen on it, which is the same link you posted to me. In addition to that its speeds all seem to match very closely to whats posted there. I have yet to see any example of it being too fast for a certain altitude, despite all the claims of its overmodelling. If its developing too high a bhp at a certain alt (and thats the accusation), that would show up as a faster speed, and it doesnt.
Imho, most of what it boils down to is HTC engine modelling, which we all know is a rather simple design. All the a/c, wether its a 109, P-47, or a Spitfire, have the same "wep" then "overheat-off" model to them. Im all for making them as accurate as possible. That way we can all argue even more stuff after guys complain they blow their engines too much :).
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Originally posted by storch
Personally I think this scenario is bogus. I'll try it a bit but I'm not sure it will be good. Like I said leave kill shooter off.
I think you will like it just fine Storch. The SpitV guys (so far anyway) seem not to realize that they cannt just yank-n-bank to kill a Zeke like they do with everything else. If the Spit turns, it dies. 1 v 1, and even 2 v 1 unless the SpitV pilots are on their game, the Zeke does very well. The only down side is you can not take front quarter shots from the Hispano's like you can from the .50 cals and survive, those hispanos murderous.
BTW, I was the first one in this set to yell "Runfire!!" on channel one. :)
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Originally posted by Mister Fork
Squire/Storch, the current SpitV we have with respect to boost is at odds with all my records. Being my favorite allied aircraft, I've done extensive research on this problem we have. I've got tonnes of materials on the Spitfre and here's what I've dug up........
Geeeeez, you guys really take this stuff seriously... I'm still trying to figure out what my rudder does..:confused:
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Sorry guys I was unable to get the setup going last night. I like to wait till 11:00pm or so pacific, the arena is usually nearly emptied out by then. Unfortunetly I had to run an unexpected errand late last night. I left a note in the staff forum and hopefully someone can cover it for me during the day. Oherwise I'll make the switch tonight when get home from work.
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[SIZE=15]SLACKER!![/SIZE]
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lol.
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SLACKER!!
The set up was changed late last night. I did forget a few things that Soulyss will have to fix but its playable.
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excellent, thanks SLash.
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Well just so u know ur BS set up has produced a capture of the port where the IJN fleets spawn from LVTs from ships and no A6M5s on the carriers. I've been on most of the day waiting for a staffer to show. I for one will be glad to see the last vestiges of Bradythink gone from the Arena.
Gentlemen don't forget on monday to please vote Bug if you do nothing else. Please accept this as my vote for Bug as Hurricane Ivan may be here by Monday and I may be off for a while if I survive the storm.
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I'm on my 24 hour shift and unable to fix the "bs" set up. I am however looking forward to when Bug has made the world perfect.
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Originally posted by Slash27
I'm on my 24 hour shift and unable to fix the "bs" set up. I am however looking forward to when Bug has made the world perfect.
It ain't your fault it's a BS set up. The scenario sucks. there is no basis for a spitV in the PTO let alone that helicopter spitV that the resident geniouses at HTC have produced. Just another week of allied same ole same ole. They won't put in a Bf 110C to sub for the Nick but there is no issue with bringing the spitV to the set up. :rolleyes:
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im having a bad day dude, pay no mind to me
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They did serve in New Guinea and Australia (and Burma), now, I dont know what specifically this "PTO" setup is supposed to represent, but I just thought I would mention that. Not my design, and I have no position on keeping or taking the Spit V out of the set. It would work ok with F6Fs and P-40s alone, it would work with 110s, it would work without them .
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I enjoyed flying this setup last night, and I flew for both sides. Flew the Spit 5 and the F4F for the allies, and the two Zeke's for the Axis.
All in all, I think it's a good matchup:aok
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My main problem I have with the SpitV is its ability to point its nose high, engage wep and fly out of a bad situation like a hellicopter. Though I will admit, once I got on a spits 6 last night... unless they had a friend close by, they died. If you gotta have a spit the seafire would be a better choice for performance that was representative of the times.
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I found that the Val and TBM are a pretty good match air to air. The Val turns better but the TBM is faster, and it takes 700+ rounds of 7.7's to take down an Avenger. :)
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It takes 1600 rounds of it to down an F4F in a turn fight (LMAO) but then I was a bit free and easy with the spraying at the time (not from the CT, from HTH realistic setup)