Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: KaK3 on February 14, 2001, 07:17:00 PM
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Lax, i salute your creativity, I am TOTALLY against perk points, it promotes elitism, and diminishes what little camaraderie there is in AH. I believe perk planes should be available to everyone evenly, but limit the number of planes you can have daily ie, two me 262's etc..you lose those two you get no more. The better pilots will have the planes longer and be more effective, and everyone plays on same ball field, by same rules. You cannot expect someone who flies 3-5 hours/week to feel good about this system when guys that can spend 5 hours/day are always killing them with perk planes that they rarely if ever are allowed to fly. This system sucks. we pay the same $30/..give everyone the same product
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You guys miss the fact that on average, the people on 24 hours a day will fly perk planes the same precentage of time as those who fly only a couple of hours a week. They will have to fly the same X hours of time to earn a perk ride as as anyone else assuming equivalent perk point accumulation proficiency. They will just fly (and lose) perk planes more often.
Your argument is pure BS.
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Rape, pillage, then burn...
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jesus dude jump his butt will ya sheesh.
sounds like a cool idea to me but htc only uses their ideas as far as i can see. any here get ignored or flamed by chearleaders .
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Pure, 100% classic Towd. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) Do you think before you type, or do ya just let it fly? I think I already know the answer to this one.
SOB
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Towd - all I did was point out the flaw in his and most everyone else's argument about how people who fly a lot will always get the perk rides.
That is total BS. They won't always get the perk rides. They will get them just as frequently per hour played as everyone else and will have to endure even more hours in the lowly "stock" rides.
Telling him that his argument is BS is jumping his butt? Yeah, right.
Am I a cheerleader? Not in the least. I think the perk system is a good idea, however, and that it is also a good idea to wait and see how it actually works out before squeaking as hot and heavy as so many are want to do.
Everyone who squeakes about the perk system is doing so blind. You don't know how much the rides will cost so you don't have a clue how much it will affect the sim. You complain that people flying a lot will always be in perk rides and that is just plain incorrect. They will spend more time in one that others who fly less but they will also spend more time in the stock planes than those who fly less. On average, the percentages will be identical.
But I guess basic math and reason are beyond most of the whiners here.
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Rape, pillage, then burn...
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Originally posted by PakRat:
You guys miss the fact that on average, the people on 24 hours a day will fly perk planes the same precentage of time as those who fly only a couple of hours a week.
Think you may be a tad off there PR. Remember that guys that fly 24/7 will be better than the others who only fly occasionally as they have practiced more. Thus the system will be more favourable to those whose life is flying AH. May not be much of a difference in %age but it is still a difference... My vote is to give people a limited number of rides then buy more with perk points... Otherwise the people who can fly them more will learn them better and thus keep them longer (see the cycle here?).
(And the argument "just get better then" will not work as everything in here is a matter of practice make perfect)
My $0.02
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Bertie - so if a player that flys more is a better pilot, you say penalize them? First that isn't necessarily true.
So someone who is a better pilot gets more points? The percentages get slightly skewed then. So freaking what?
Until we know how much things cost we have no idea how the equation plays out - except that maybe some good pilots will get more opportunities in perk planes.
Kak's argument is still wrong and your's is just whining.
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Rape, pillage, then burn...
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pakrat, if you cant keep your replies civil..dont bother, we arnt interested.
someone who flies one hour /day wont accumulate the experience to attain perk rides on a regular basis as someone who spends 5 hours a day. Dont bother trying to argue that point, it is ingnorant to do so.
I'm not saying penalize better flyers, im saying better flyers will have perk planes more often anyway, as they wont lose them, lousy flyers will have their perk plane, crash and burn, and then fly something else. But at least they will have a chance the same as ANY OTHER player.
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BErtie, i agree with you, let everyone at least have limited number of perk planes per day to start, at least, then with extra points, flyers can get extra perk planes if they lose their daily allotment
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What about having so many perk planes in the air at one time per team?
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People seem to be forgetting that to get perk rides quickly you have to be in inferior AC.... (leaving aside the whole factory-perk-raping for fighter points issue which is currently the most efficient way to get perks..and requires no air-to-air skill at all.)
So, for an elite air-to-air pilot to have a perk plane as often as possible, he's going to have to tool around the VAST MAJORITY of his time in a Macchi or an early-model 109, etc. etc.
Thus, the perk system will likely mean that great pilots who fly a lot will be LESS DANGEROUS, MOST of the time, to mediocre pilots who don't fly much, not more dangerous.
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Are you guys really that lame that you don't want planes like the Arado because someone might get to fly it more often than you?
Someone who rarely flys is a target no matter how you slice it. If you are just out for a Sunday flight, may I suggest Microsoft Flight Simulator or one of the boxed sims. But to try to hold everyone back because you are incompetent is a joke.
As far as I can tell you guys are just whining - more and more and more - and you are sounding a lot like the far left liberals who want everything handed to them instead of working for it. Didn't earn it? No matter. The Govm't gonna give it to you regardless of whether you deserve it or not.
Yeah - that's what I pay my money for - a watered down sim full of bedwetters and dragging diapers. Not.
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Rape, pillage, then burn...
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Another thing..
I've not seen anything definative, but I BELIEVE you will get no perks at all for killing anything WITH a perk plane.
To hear the rabid anti-perkers talk, they make it sound like they envision great pilots who fly all the time getting perk planes and more and more perk points and thus more perk planes and will therefore be flying Tempests all of the time.
There are NEGATIVE feedbacks apparently built into the system....including not only the likely situation that kills in Tempests will get you no perks, but also the previously mentioned fact that it's far easier to rack up perks the less popular a plane is.
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PakRat, breathe...in...out...in...out ...
No need to start comparing people to political systems, geez..
Everyone knows liberals are more intelligent anyways (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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I love it when people feel threatened when opinions differ from theirs.. it's so left fanatical/fascist/left wing.. whatever. Let's keep political ideologiy out of this, if you are able .
I dont agree with perk, the way it sounds, is, those that arnt proficient will be penalized and pay for a product they dont have access to.
Set up a minumum number of perk planses for all flyers equally, and additional one to be added as perk points accumalate,or have a perk plane bank that those that spend all day flying AH can bank more perk planes for future use, while those that fly only minimally, will be able to use the best product( plane) that AH can deliver, for however short a flight they take..
There can even be a Suqad bank, where perk planes can be shared among squad members..
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Personally, I like the idea of allowing so many perk planes in the air at one time per team. You do not need to be qualified for them in any way other than being lucky enough to select it when there is one available to fly.
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I'm totaly in favor of perk points. I think it is refreshing to have this in a flight sim. It gives something to shoot for to have your plane, and your flight intense as you will want to keep it.
I currently have only 600 fighter perk points, wich is very low compared to others, so please don't tell me that I like perk points because I can have any perk plane I want.
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You dweebs already have a perk plane that you can always fly - the F4UC.
You guys are just crybabies that want what you apparently don't deserve. If you had any hair, you'd learn to fly and fight and earn your perks like everyone else. Then you wouldn't be on this side of the fence needing some lame equalizer that you can't handle anyway.
And Kak, I'm not threatened by you or anyone else. I just don't like guys like trying to squeak the perk system to an abortion because you don't understand the good it can do.
The perk system will allow otherwise unbalancing planes to occasionally see action. No "jet day" but the ability to occasionally get your hands on a 262. Or an Arado. Or a Mosquito or whatever. This crap about the good flyers being the only ones who will benefit from perks is stupid. Everyone will.
So what if the good flyers EARN a nice ride a little more often? Try earning something yourself some day. And don't begrudge those who earn things for themselves. You want the pretty things - work for them.
One day it won't be your parents handing you everything. One day you might earn your own way.
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Rape, pillage, then burn...
[This message has been edited by PakRat (edited 02-14-2001).]
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One day it won't be your parents handing you everything. One day you might earn your own way.
Wow. Hadn't thought of that. What a novel concept...
Hmmmmmm.. perk points. AH's S&H green stamp system. If I don't want a perk ride, can I get a toaster instead?
Still don't understand what all the fuss is about.. none of the perk system will have the slightest effect on how many times a session I get killed. Will we get air-sea rescue in to us faster for perk point salvage? That would be nice.
Wonder if the Arado's avacado green finish will match my new perk toaster?
Inquiring minds don't need to know. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Hang
1st/AG "Bishlanders" << Recruiting!!
"Turn to kill, not to engage."
Commander 'Willie' Driscoll, USNR
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heh, this is getting funny.
The original idea is two perks, such as ME 262's per player, per day.
Aces High Main Arena Debrief
4/17/01:
9:00am:Kak3 wheels up at 9:00am , ME 262
9:16am:Kak3 reports single dot, coalt.
9:17am: Hblair kills Kak3, with ME 262.
9:18am: Kak3 wheels up at 9:18am , ME 262
9:27am: Kak3 reports single dot, coalt.
9:28am: Nath kills Kak3, with ME 262.
9:29am: Out of perk planes, Kak3 logs disgusted.
Total sorties, 2. Total time 29 boring,frustrating minutes.
And so on till there is a 25 man, ME262 vs. ME262 arena.
But what if you had to build points for those planes? Then there would be very few ever online at one time, and eventually you'd get to take one up when there were a whole bunch of chogs to vulch instead of perks.
towd, Im so happy you think that incredibly bad idea is so cool, and now you know why HTC turns a deaf ear.
[This message has been edited by Creamo (edited 02-14-2001).]
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Perk is a bad idea if you want to have a fair and balanced arena.
Perk is a bad idea in a game where so many STYLES and personalities exist.... Who's style deserves to be rewarded and who's needs to be punished? I maintain that different styles are the true beauty of the sim and that rewarding one over another narrows the scope of the game.
Perks are a bad idea if you wish to expand on a plane set. They put focus on a few late war uber planes while offering no help for early war ac introduction. A developmental ded end.
Perk is a bad idea if you feel new blood is good. New guys will not be appreciative of being killed by an obviously superior plane that they have no chance to fly. The dreaded and invincible Chog at least is available to all and if the newbie gets in a lucky snap shot he get's his name in lights... Very re-inforcing.
Also...having uber planes around all thetime is just a bad idea period... even with the Chog being available to all at all times... people feel it is too good to be in the arena.... Being killed by the mediocre Chog is constant cause for animosity.. Imagine the cheeriness of a "perk" arena.
And to what purpose? At best, most, would like to at least try some of the super planes but there are at least half a dozen better, fairer ways to introduce them.. I don't think most care enough about em tho to destroy the arena as we know it now. At worst... only a few (the half dozen who vocally are for perk) would like it and for very odd reasons... Why would anyone wish to have such a huge advantage over other players in a game of skill unless.... Skill is not what they think the game is about.
lazs
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pakrat, your arrogance is amazing, equalled only by your ignorance. You have no idea what i have earned in myh life and dont ever bring my parents into this discussion again. You have no idea what they were able to give me or not give me.
If you cant have an open forum without using insulting words and inuendos, than shut up, you are boring.
Some of us have lives that dont allow us to fly 5 hours a day, you know, we have jobs and family obligations, and I wont qualify my manliness or capability by how i can shoot shoot someone down on the net, like you obviously do.
If i am allowed one 262, and i get killed the first time i up , and lose, and havnt gained perk points for any more, I certainly wont log in disgust, like was suggested. grow up, and stick to what you know, your own ideas and friends.
Allowing everyone one 262 /day wont turn the arena into a jet fest, 80% will lose it the first landing/flight prolly, and getting a product as a result of paying for it with money you earn is a concept Rat is forgetting we are all doing.
About allowing only certain number of planes available per team doesnt work, you get spies who purposelfully crash them, than switch to thier team side, as happened in AW.
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HA, just noticed the 'junior member' identification under my user name, oh I can only hope one day to be a 'member', I'll say my prayers and be extra nice to the mean men.
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Don't even start calling cheerleader here, but fellas listen- HT, pyro and crew have forgotten 10 times more than you'll ever know about how a main arena works. You don't think they study, eat, breathe and sleep this stuff? You don't think they watch the #'s in the main arena? They've done this gig for years. And last time I checked, I think they do this full time.
You guys are like a buncha outa shape, lardo football fans second guessing the coach in the critical part of the game. Just sit back, relax, and have a beer. A date wouldn't hurt either. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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Originally posted by lazs:
Perk is a bad idea if you want to have a fair and balanced arena.
Is the arena balanced now? If so, I want us to do a duel, I'll take the P51, you take the Machi 202. Coalt merge.
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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Also, lazs, you driving the healey to this years con? If so, you gonna let me loose in it? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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PakRat, you wouldn't happen to be the PakRat from Fighter Ace would ya?
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Pakrat, I'm sorry but your original argument is based on opinion and projected statistics. There is no telling that the pilots that fly 24/7 will be any different than the pilots that fly only a few hours a week.. No one can base an argument off of shaky facts. That's why ya got shot down by everyone in this thread (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) No need to get mad, just create an argument that has a hard fact to it rather than giving it a weak base with a fact that isn't always right.
Thanks, and have a nice day.
PS.
Don't cry, dry your eye! And let the AH guys figure out what to do with the perk system. They won't change anything until THEIR idea is tested in the MA first. If there are problems, and people complain 95% of the time rather than the usual 90%, they might change it! Until then, don't crap your pants over something that isn't even in effect, bud! (that was a long PS)
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-=///Octavius\\\=-
VMF-323 "Death Rattlers"
MAG-33
Maz203@aol.com
(http://www.devildogs.com/vmf111/mag-33-hdr2.gif)
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Negative, Raub. Never flown Fighter Ace.
Kak - It amazes me that you guys can't even give the perk system a chance. You guys get on here and squeak and moan every damn day since the perk system was announced. You guys try to figure out the point system and then rip it apart on the BBS. You squeak because somebody might get to fly a perk more than you. How freaking lame can you get?
Do you dweebs really think that HTC is going to implement a broken system and if they were to do that, that they wouldn't do everything they could to fix it? Do you really think that they would put this in without thinking it through. These guys have been flying and building sims for a damn long time. I think they might have more of a clue than you how it works and how it should work.
Look, dork, if the system is a failure and they are losing subscribers, they will change it - up to and including eliminating it. It already happened with night. People didn't like it and in short order, night was a thing of the past. But you know what - we tried it. We at least got to test it out and see what we liked and didn't like about it. So now we have dusk and dawn - very useful and beautiful. But without night, would we have this or would it always be noon?
What is so freaking hard about just sitting tight and giving it a chance? Once you see how it actually works, then you could (and should) voice your opinion. But why do you have to go and piss on it before we even get to try it? Height of selfishness and stupidity IMHO.
Put yourself in HTC's place. You announce what could be a cool improvement to the sim and then a bunch of bedwetters start crying, squeaking, etc - to no end - when they don't understand the system.
A) How likely would you be to try anything innovative in the future?
B) How much time and effort would you even devote to something that every change, addition, improvement brings nothing but whining?
Getting the picture? Your immature attitudes not only hurt the sim as it is now, you guys hurt the prospects for the sim in the future. I really hope HTC reads through the crap to see and realize that the majority support this - at least for now. If HTC screws it up, then most of us realize that it will get fixed. My guess is it won't get screwed up in the first place. You guys apparently don't think they have a clue or how to run a sim. If that is true, how did they manage to get this far and why are you here squeaking?
Guys like you limit the sim. You want to close your eyes and not see anything new or try anything new. The sad thing is you do everything you can to stop it before anyone else can even see it. You guys are just pathetic.
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Rape, pillage, then burn...
[This message has been edited by PakRat (edited 02-16-2001).]
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Octavious, I don't believe I was shot down in this thread. You actually back up the premise - if pilots that fly 24/7 are no different, then they will fly the same percentage of time in perk rides as everyone else. They will just do it more often as they will fly more overall. You flunk stat or something? This is simple math.
The ones making arguments based on weak bases are the guys arguing agains the perk system. Why? I have no idea. Maybe they just can't handle anything new.
I think you actually meant to address your post to the other guys as I am also arguing to wait and see instead of freak out like they have been. Re-read the post.
Have a nice day yourself and a better one tomorrow. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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Rape, pillage, then burn...
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Not that it matters, but I am really for the get 2 free planes a day, pay for the rest idea. I suck at this game, but enjoy it. I'll probably never get any better at it than I currently am, but I do pay my money. So in my mind the whole "you didn't earn it" argument doesn't work. I earned the 30 bucks a month to play the game. I think I ought to get to try the uber perk planes once in a while despite my suckage. So there :-P
Arty
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I've always liked you Pak! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
The only thing I have against the perk system, as discussed so far, is the fact that it conflicts with my squads agenda. I say conflicts, but without the perk system being in place it is really hard to say. As I understand it, though, in establishing Air Superiority as our goal we will be missing out on the juicy perk targets. Fighters do not seem to be awarded the best perk points, unless they are in attack mode. I don't think we should be penalized for preferring one style over another. Will turn fighters get more points/time? I think so.
It is my feeling that some sort of formula needs to be implemented that will level the kills/time with kills/death, so that pilots flying for life will not lose out (perk-wise) to guys that don't mind dying in those free-for-alls.
This is not to say that anyone in my squad *can't* fly in a turn-n-burn mode. It is against our approach, though, and I don't think our methods should cost us the benefit of perk rides. I am all for the perk system and can't wait to see the full implementation of it. I do not want to have to fly more hours to achieve the same benefits, though. It won't modify our approach, though. It just won't make us happy and I don't want any of my squad to be disenfranchised with AH because of the slant toward turn fighting.
However, if we have to be 'perk-hunters' in order to achieve success, so be it. We are, after all, more than willing to give HTC the time it takes to get the system in place and working within their ideals.
There are other things which have drawn my concern. AH is, to date, the best sim available. I do see disparities, though. Why, for instance, can I spin a P-51 below 9k and get it out before impact? Why can I launch troops from a humpty-bump manuever? Why does the B-17 turn level with full rudder and cross-aileron? I think these things are more questionable then a perk system which is not yet fully realized, but I can live with it in the interest of gameplay.
If the new system runs off a few whiners, what's it to me? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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[This message has been edited by Voss (edited 02-16-2001).]
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Originally posted by hblair:
Is the arena balanced now? If so, I want us to do a duel, I'll take the P51, you take the Machi 202. Coalt merge.
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
now you'll have Me262 vs Machi 202 interesting no ?
[This message has been edited by nonoht (edited 02-16-2001).]
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My point is that a well flown P51 will kill an equally well flown 202 in almost all cases.
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There is nothing fair nor socialist about online WWII Aircombat or any other online competative game. There will never be a level playing field in an online game unless it is just you and a host of AI. So get used to it and stop having these brain farts over something not even in production yet.
-Westy
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hblair... my point is that.... in the 51 vs machi scenario.. the machi guy is in it by choice. If he doesn't like the way it is turning out he can grab a 51 or a Hog or whatever till he finds the best counter...For him. See the diff? I sorta believe that the 51 is outa place in the current arena as is tho.
pak... you are a broken record... "give it a chance" I and others have laid out the reasons why perk is idiotic, unfair and unworkable and IMO totally unnecessary. You, on the other hand have not countered one arguement with anything more worthwhile than "give it a chance"
sheesh.... I've never amputated my own toes in order to build character and develop a distinct walk but you would have to come up with a better reason than "give it a chance" to get me to do so. Try to be your own man pak.... learn to stand up on your hind legs a little!
lazs
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My view:
Perks are good. They add cool planes in a very limited way.
If a perk plane cost 100 perks or more, you will only see a player in one once a week! HTC has hinted that a perk may cost 500+ perkies, so that makes it.. once every month (and I hate that).
That you dont play 24/7 and dont have the chance to get as many perks? Bohoo, you will have to stop upping in that 109g10 or Chog to get some perkies... a good pilot in a 109g2 or f or even in a zeke can get 4 or 5 perk points a sortie (or even more). What does this mean? We will see lots more varied, mid/early war planes out there shooting the crap outta chogs, and the 24/7 pilots that SUCK and CHOG & n1k all day long wont get as many perks as you, the 2 day per week flyer in the early mid/war planes. Result, the dweebn1k and the good pilot have a good chance of ending with the same amount of perks at the end of the week.
I can fly a n1k or chog all day and barely get 30 perk points. I can fly the P38, 205, zeke or 109g2 for 5 hours and get 50 perks. So stop whining that 24/7 flyers will get more than you will. Good pilots 24/7? Heck, you will see them in the 262 more often, thats all... and those 24/7 pilots are not very common.
Plus, the perk system is not even implemented, wait until you see it working, then whine/suggest stuff.
This subject has lost more credibility than rosseanne's sex appeal.
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How's this?
I suggest you take both hands, cross your chest, clasp your hands onto your arms and get a grip.
Not everyone is worried about others getting stuff they won't. Some worry about a style of play dying. It may be a realistic concern or not, but that doesn't make it less legitimate.
I am in the "wait-and-see" camp too, but the fact is I won't be forced to play strat if it can't fit into my lifestyle. What will happen is I will be driven out of the game. Call it a whine if you like.
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tac... if each player only gets a perk ride once a week that would pretty much guarentee that there were perk planes spoiling an otherwise balanced arena at all times... I don't care for em anyway so there would be no advantage and a large disadvantage to me.
If they were so rare that I only seen em once in a great while..... Whats the point for the ones who like em? Even at one sortie a week they would be vastly better off with a "uber plane day" at the end of each tour If.... All they wanted to do was fly these planes but...
I contend that that is not the case. I contend that the perk cheerleaders are only interested in flying perks if they can fly em against easy targets. I also contend that they want the "perk" points to change the focus of the game from it's current free for all to a more organized and boring form of everquest. I also believe that they know that they have to "force" people to fly the way they prefer or it just won't happen. They can't cajole people into taking strat seriously so they want a "perk" system to give em the carrot and stick. It appears that they have won this round and that the guys in action crowd have lost this one.
lazs
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Originally posted by Tac:
If a perk plane cost 100 perks or more, you will only see a player in one once a week! HTC has hinted that a perk may cost 500+ perkies, so that makes it.. once every month (and I hate that).
[/b]
I got 600 fighter perk points in the three days after the beginning of this tour :-) I flew a lot, but definately not around the clock.
I've gotten 100 perk points in an hour.
My pots had gone so bad I simply couldn't hit anything air-to-air, so I decided to screw it and just bomb factories in a P-47 for perks (which I could still do.)
Unfortunately, my joystick pots finally deteriorated to the point where I coudn't even strafe, so I've stopped AHing till my new pots from CH come in (hopefully soon :-)
[This message has been edited by Torgo (edited 02-16-2001).]
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Second guessing stuff is so cool. Especially when it hasn't even been shown to us yet.
Kinda like...
<sarcasm>
Hey I bet cold fusion sucks even though we don't have a working fusion generator yet. I'll bet coal power plants are 500x better and more economic and environmentally safe. What do the scientists know anyway? Who told them I wanted fusion power? Who gave them the power to try something new? I want my gas powered 220watt generator that sits outside on my pickup's flatbed.
</sarcasm>
Nevermind it's not even implemented yet in a useable way, lets just grab a box of tissues and cry our lil' eyes out over the whole mess so we don't have to try something new.
-SW
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NT
[This message has been edited by AKSeaWulfe (edited 02-16-2001).]
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lazs, it's the free enterprise system at work here, bust your butt, get your perk ride.
No biggie.
The world's not gonna end. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)