Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Wanker on September 09, 2004, 07:54:10 AM
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http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/09/08/bush.national.ap/index.html
WASHINGTON (AP) -- Democrats pounced on the latest revelations about President Bush's Air National Guard service Wednesday, saying newly released records show Bush shirked his duty and lied about it.
Bush's spokesmen said the records back up the president's assertion that he fulfilled all of his Vietnam-era military obligations and served honorably.
Meanwhile, the Texas Air National Guard released 128 pages of records on Bush's service from 1968 to 1973, all of which had been previously released by the White House. Two Texas officials said in sworn affidavits that the records were all the Texas Guard had on Bush's service.
CBS reported Wednesday night that it had obtained personal files from one of Bush's Texas commanders saying Bush discussed with him how to avoid drills during 1972. The report on "60 Minutes" said the files were from the personal records of Col. Jerry Killian, who died in 1984.
In the memos, Killian complained of pressure from higher-ups to give Bush positive evaluations and said Bush talked about how to avoid taking a physical exam in 1972, when Bush eventually skipped six months of training and lost his pilot's wings for missing the exam.
After the broadcast, the White House, without comment, released to the news media two of the memos, one ordering Bush to report for his physical exam and the other suspending him from flight status.
With national security and the war on terrorism looming large on voters' minds, supporters of Bush and Democratic nominee John Kerry are attacking each candidate's Vietnam War records. Republicans have accused Kerry, a decorated Vietnam combat veteran, of fabricating the events which led to his five medals. Democrats point to gaps in Bush's stateside Air National Guard service in 1972 and 1973 to say Bush shirked his duty.
The Defense Department on Tuesday released more than two dozen pages of records about Bush and his former Texas unit. They showed Bush flew for 336 hours in military jets after his flight training and ranked in the middle of his class.
The latest records do not shed any light on key questions about Bush's service: whether or where he trained in late 1972 and early 1973, why he skipped a required medical exam and whether he was investigated or punished for skipping the exam and six months' worth of training in 1972.
Pentagon officials said they discovered the documents released Tuesday while performing a more comprehensive search "out of an abundance of caution" in response to a Freedom of Information Act lawsuit by The Associated Press.
The newly released records also showed that while Bush says he was in Alabama training with another Guard unit in 1972, his home unit in Texas was participating in the air defense of the southern United States by keeping two jet fighters constantly ready for launch within five minutes' notice.
Democrats said that meant Bush passed on a chance to defend his country. Bush flew the F-102A jets his unit kept on alert but was grounded in August 1972 because of the missed medical check.
"When his unit was placed on a 24-hour alert mission to protect our country from surprise attack, why did George Bush not report for duty?" Democratic National Committee head Terry McAuliffe said in a conference call with reporters Wednesday.
McAuliffe also suggested Bush lied when he said he had released all available records and had fulfilled his Guard obligations.
"Either George Bush was deliberately lying to the American public or he had some type of very severe memory loss," McAuliffe said.
Bush spokesmen scoffed. They said the Pentagon had not done the extensive search Bush ordered and noted that Bush had approval to train in late 1972 with an Alabama unit.
"If the president had not fulfilled his commitment he would not have been honorably discharged," Bush spokesman Scott McClellan said Wednesday.
Adding to the criticism of Bush, a group called Texans for Truth announced an advertising campaign questioning whether Bush ever trained with the Alabama Air National Guard. The advertisement, set to run in several swing states, quotes a retired lieutenant colonel in the Alabama unit who says he searched for Bush but never met him in 1972 or 1973.
Bob Mintz is another of more than a dozen former members of the 187th Tactical Reconnaissance Group who say they never saw Bush train with the unit. Medical records released by the White House show Bush received a dental exam at the 187th base in January 1973.
"I never met the man and I'm sorry I didn't because he's somebody important," Mintz, 63, said in a conference call with reporters Wednesday. Mintz acknowledged Bush could have performed office duties for the 187th without crossing paths with Mintz.
The 128 pages of documents the Texas Air National Guard released to the AP on Wednesday duplicate records Bush released in February. The release also included sworn statements from Texas National Guard officials Travis Evans and Michael Blalock saying the records are the only ones related to Bush in the Texas Guard's files.
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What questions does that raise that haven't already been addressed? What do you think needs 'splaining?
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Who cares.
The election process in the US is tedious at best.
It just seems to be an 8 month drawn out mud slinging match.
I wanted to read about the situation in Russia the other day and went to an article on Yahoo. I noticed that in the related stories it had about 4 or 5 articles about the US election. It was "related" only because the situation in Russia had a one sentance mention in the article.
Enough already.
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Attaway banana!
VOTE FOR KERRY BECAUSE HE'S YOUR GUY ON THE IMPORTANT ISSUES!!!
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/587_1094658599_kerryedwardsslogan1972.jpg)
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same twit brought up the same spew in 1999 - didn't carry water then, doubt it will now
it's got terry mcnumbnuts foaming at the mouth - AGAIN - LOL LOL LOL
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Most rational people long ago accepted the obvious fact that Bush successfully avoided duty in Vietnam. According to our liberal historians Vietnam was a dirty, immoral and objectionable war worthy of canadian citizenship. And there is the parodox of Bush/Kerry. Kerry is the perfect draft dodger, the ultimate canadian candidate....bush the silver spoon college deferment coke snorting pot smoking beer drinking party boy and yet he volunteered for duty that he appears to have shirked somewhat and Kerry volunteered for a war he didnt believe in was arguably heroic in and yet left way too early from for the simple benifit said duty would provide on his political resume. Kerry being one of those people wanting to be President since his teen youth. Bush not even thinking about it until his middle age.
when its all said and done Im voting for Bush because he simply has not sucked enough to be replaced with the overtly liberal senator from Massachusetts.
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If this is such a big deal, then why didn't it keep him from being elected the first time. I don't think either's war record is important or a valid issue. Lets look at TODAY's problems/Issues.
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Attaway banana!
VOTE FOR KERRY BECAUSE HE'S YOUR GUY ON THE IMPORTANT ISSUES!!!
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/587_1094658599_kerryedwardsslogan1972.jpg)
:rofl :rofl I crack up everytime I see that!
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CASE CLOSED (http://www.nationalreview.com/york/york200402180840.asp)
(Not to your liking I'm sure banana! ;) )
Here's another:
What do you really know about George W. Bush’s time in the Air National Guard? (http://www.hillnews.com/york/090904.aspx)
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The "Case Closed" piece should certainly do it. For anyone with an open mind anyway.
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Bush released his records, sKerry still refuses to release his. Who exactly has some splainin to do here?
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Bush is going to lose.
When he decided to let the FCC and Colin Powell's son go after indecency he sealed his fate.
Howard Stern is going to spend the 3 days before the election bringing up every embarassing detail about Bush. He broadcasts in many of the key swing states and he has enormous influence over his listenership.
When 10 million people listen to such broadcasts even if only 10% change their votes it will be enough to cost him the election.
The problem with Bush is the closer you look at his record the worse he appears. Even these attack ads on Kerry are going to rebound back on the Republicans. Howard Stern is going to remind everyone out how the whole Swift Boat Vets for truth was just a front for the Republican party.
People who realize that their views have been shaped by propaganda and lies will react by either not voteing for Bush or voteing against him.
He is doomed.
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God, not another round of not discussing the issues. :(
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Originally posted by Habu
Howard Stern is going to spend the 3 days before the election bringing up every embarassing detail about Bush. He broadcasts in many of the key swing states and he has enormous influence over his listenership.
Who listens to him?
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Originally posted by Habu
Bush is going to lose.
When he decided to let the FCC and Colin Powell's son go after indecency he sealed his fate.
Howard Stern is going to spend the 3 days before the election bringing up every embarassing detail about Bush. He broadcasts in many of the key swing states and he has enormous influence over his listenership.
When 10 million people listen to such broadcasts even if only 10% change their votes it will be enough to cost him the election.
The problem with Bush is the closer you look at his record the worse he appears. Even these attack ads on Kerry are going to rebound back on the Republicans. Howard Stern is going to remind everyone out how the whole Swift Boat Vets for truth was just a front for the Republican party.
People who realize that their views have been shaped by propaganda and lies will react by either not voteing for Bush or voteing against him.
He is doomed.
Howard Stern has the ability to manipulate the outcome of US Presidential elections?
Either you give that idiot too much credit or you aren't giving enough to the people who listen to him.
I hope.:(
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Yeah Howard Stern :rofl He change alot of "swing" voters !:rofl
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As soon as his listeners hear "don't vote for Bush", instead of "show your boobs", they will change the channel
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Originally posted by Habu
People who realize that their views have been shaped by propaganda and lies will react by either not voteing for Bush or voteing against him.
He is doomed.
If only that were true we wouldn't have had to endure Clinton in the White House for 8 years.
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oh yeah.... an election decided by the "truth" being brought out byu michele moore and howard potty mouth stern...
that would be pretty darn scary if it were at all possible.
habu... face it... your pal stern is a potty mouth, no talent potato who can only make it by stretching the boundries and is being a big crybaby because he is being made to play by the same rules as everyone else... he knows that in satalite pay for listen... he would be a total failure.
Do you honestly think that people will listen to his embarassing, self serving tyrades for 3 days?
and... do you honestly want that socialist kerrie for president? stern himself was all for Bush before he was mande to play by the rules and now blames it all Bush.
stern is a new york city sitcom whiner. endless sienfeld whining
lazs
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Oh you Republicans... Kerry gets slammed for showing up to serve his country, putting himself in harm's way and saving a Green Beret's life. Bush gets a free pass on disobeying direct orders, and wasting Millions of taxpayer dollars on training that he just blew off because he "didn't have the time" to show up for duty. Apparently, it's too shaky in a F-102 to snort a line of coke.
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The memo... a forgery? (http://littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/?entry=12524_Bush_Guard_Documents-_Forgeries)
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Originally posted by rpm371
Oh you Republicans... Kerry gets slammed for showing up to serve his country, putting himself in harm's way and saving a Green Beret's life. Bush gets a free pass on disobeying direct orders, and wasting Millions of taxpayer dollars on training that he just blew off because he "didn't have the time" to show up for duty. Apparently, it's too shaky in a F-102 to snort a line of coke.
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/587_1094658599_kerryedwardsslogan1972.jpg)
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Ah, RPM arrives just in time to slam National Guard service with multiple accusations. Some of his accusations already clearly proven incorrect (Did you even read the article RPM?) and some accusations that are merely unsupported smears.
Weep for the injustice to Kerry from Republican slams as you slam Bush in the same fashion.
It really makes you......... admirable. Or something.
Say did YOU ever stop beating your wife?
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Originally posted by Habu
Bush is going to lose.
When he decided to let the FCC and Colin Powell's son go after indecency he sealed his fate.
Howard Stern is going to spend the 3 days before the election bringing up every embarassing detail about Bush. He broadcasts in many of the key swing states and he has enormous influence over his listenership.
When 10 million people listen to such broadcasts even if only 10% change their votes it will be enough to cost him the election.
The problem with Bush is the closer you look at his record the worse he appears. Even these attack ads on Kerry are going to rebound back on the Republicans. Howard Stern is going to remind everyone out how the whole Swift Boat Vets for truth was just a front for the Republican party.
People who realize that their views have been shaped by propaganda and lies will react by either not voteing for Bush or voteing against him.
He is doomed.
This has to be a troll.
If not, then someone epitomizes the current state of the Democratic party.
Hell, works either way.
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"Apparently, it's too shaky in a F-102 to snort a line of coke."
Datz a good one!
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Originally posted by Yeager
Most rational people long ago accepted the obvious fact that Bush successfully avoided duty in Vietnam. According to our liberal historians Vietnam was a dirty, immoral and objectionable war worthy of canadian citizenship.
Liberals have no problem admitting that Veitnam was a huge mistake. That is why Clinton, who tried to dodge the draft, managed to beat 2 WW2 heros.
But the problem with Bush and Cheney is that they were both draft dodgers, but they will not come out and say that it was a stupid war. Hypocrisy.
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kerry::' i was for the vietnam war befor i was against it'
kerry was too stupid to know the war was wrong and went over there to be a big "war hero" like his hero JFK, after he found out he had to shoot puppy dogs, women and wounded VC he came back to tell congress that the war was wrong.
Bush, on the other hand already knew the war was wrong and found a way to serve his country without killing wounded VC, puppy dogs,women, children, etc.
so, who are you going to vote for, the stupid guy or the smart guy?
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Originally posted by Saurdaukar
The memo... a forgery? (http://littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/?entry=12524_Bush_Guard_Documents-_Forgeries)
Not because of proportional width spacing.
http://www-1.ibm.com/ibm/history/history/year_1941.html
PS: Wow john, just...wow.
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MZ, I do not agree with your assesement on the Vietnam war. It was a winnable war that could have and should have been won but was lost for many reasons, one of which was people like Kerry backstabbing the fighting men and women who were dying trying to win it.
Bush Jr was most likely following his fathers advice to avoid service in Vietnam. I suspect Bush Sr could see what was happening with the peace movement and tried to streer his son away from getting killed in a war that was obvioulsy going to be ended on terms tragic to the nation.
Cheney was probably smart in avoiding the draft. He has done far more for the country alive these past four years than he could have achieved dying in Vietnam and I think he knew where his service was needed and where his talents were best utilized.
Cheney is no dummy.
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Wasn't this posted already? This is about as important as the details of Kerry's military record, beyond the fact that he served. In other words, not so important.
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Hey you can think but you want but Stern has the ability to invoke rage in his listeners.
He is honest. He is believable because he is honest. He has the ability to point out hipocrits a mile away. And he is suprisingly intellegent despite his reputation.
He has swung 3 elections in New York to candidates who were behind in the pools. He did this by pointing out things like how road construction always happened during rush hour in New York and how the politicans in power were idiots for not careing about that and not making laws for it to happen during the night. When one candidate came on his show and said he would change the laws guess what? He won.
Seems like a stupid thing to swing an election. But it did. Stern struck a cord with the hundreds of thousands who sit in traffic each day listening to him.
That issue was more real to those listener voters than all the image/reputation/mud slingling/partisan nonsense that was officiially being played out by the politicians.
If Bush was an intellegent guy and a good president he would have nothing to fear from Stern. But he is not. The republicans and Clear Channel are going to see what a guy like Stern can do this fall. And so will you.
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Originally posted by Yeager
MZ, I do not agree with your assesement on the Vietnam war. It was a winnable war that could have and should have been won but was lost for many reasons, one of which was people like Kerry backstabbing the fighting men and women who were dying trying to win it.
What was wrong with saying stop wasteing lives in the war if you do not intend to win it? In 72 the guys going over were being suckered. The US had no intention of winning the war. They just wanted out in the least damageing way. And guys were dieing each day waiting for this to happen. Don't blame the guys like Kerry who had the courage to see that.
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Originally posted by Thrawn
Not because of proportional width spacing.
http://www-1.ibm.com/ibm/history/history/year_1941.html
PS: Wow john, just...wow.
Hey say what you want - but plenty of other sites are picking this up.
I wouldnt doubt the Dem's would try this either - their hatred of Bush is so strong that they'd do just about anything to boot him from office.
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What was wrong with saying stop wasteing lives in the war if you do not intend to win it?
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Nothing wrong with that. That would have been a heroic thing to say if it were not for all that other crap Kerry was spouting.
In 72 the guys going over were being suckered. The US had no intention of winning the war. They just wanted out in the least damageing way. And guys were dieing each day waiting for this to happen.
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Sickening. Hey...lets do the same thing in Iraq. No doubt Kerry could pull that one off like a old college pro.
Don't blame the guys like Kerry who had the courage to see that.
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I dont blame Kerry for seeing anything. It was his condemnation of his fellow sailors and soldiers, calling them child killers and rapists that destroyed anything useful he had to say. Indeed, by saying those things Kerry voluntarily placed himself in the same league as Hanoi Jane in giving aid and comfort to the enemy.
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yep
the vets think so much about skerry the "war hero"
Bush 57%
Skerry 34%
LOL LOL LOL
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Originally posted by Eagler
yep
the vets think so much about skerry the "war hero"
Bush 57%
Skerry 34%
LOL LOL LOL
I'm assuming thats US veterans..
Has anybody polled the North Vietnamese Officer Corps?
Kerry's post swift boat "service" was probably woth them a division or two...
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ok habu... your hero stern may get new york to vote democrat this time instead of like last time when they voted....
democrat.
stern is a lying phony and some day you will realize it.
lazs
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I wouldn't call him a lying phony.
Maybe a low-class POS, but not a lying phony.
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Originally posted by Saurdaukar
Hey say what you want - but plenty of other sites are picking this up.
I wouldnt doubt the Dem's would try this either - their hatred of Bush is so strong that they'd do just about anything to boot him from office.
LMFAO! I don't give a flying **** what moronic sites are picking this up. And I don't care if you think the Dems would try this.
The basis of the argument is in error and I have proven it.
Point: There were no proportional spacing typewriters in 1971.
Point: Memo was writen on a proportional spacing typewriter.
Therefore: Memo wasn't writen in 1971.
Except there were proportional spacing typewriters.
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IBM made millions of of them, all with interchangable fonts.
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Originally posted by rpm371
IBM made millions of of them, all with interchangable fonts.
liberal bastards!
-Sik
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Any of you who are quick to jump on this to condem the President, do you actually know what is known about Bush's military service (which was longer than Kerry's by the way) and what is merely inferred? If not, read this:
http://www.hillnews.com/york/090904.aspx
The facts are, Bush had enough points to fulfill his service commitment, and actually appears to have spent more activity duty time then Kerry. He flew military aircraft which, peacetime or wartime, is a dangerous profession. He had over 300 hours of flight time, mostly in single-seat F-102s. Did he figure it would keep him out of Nam? Probably. I served twenty years in the Air Force. I believe myself a patriot in my own fashion. If faced with the possibility of going to Vietnam or volunteering for the the Air Force or Navy (or the Guard if a possibility, I'd have have chosen the latter.
Kerry himself sought a deferment (so I have heard, at least), and joined the Navy when he couldn't get one. Perhaps he thought it would keep him out of the jungle. It didn't, he served (honorably,we must assume, as we must with President Bush), and then he came home. His dishonor came when he got home and betrayed his fellow servicemen. That was followed by 20 years of undistinguished service (a dubious use of the term, but I can't come up with a more accurate one) in the Senate, where he sponsored no legislation of any noteworthiness.
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OUCH KERRY FANS! LOOKS LIKE EVEN VIETNAM CANT BE AN ISSUE FOR YOU... TOO BAD..
Oh Oh looks like Kerry has a campaign to rescue and some issues to come up with...
Full text of article linked above:
Bush’s National Guard years
Before you fall for Dems’ spin, here are the facts
What do you really know about George W. Bush’s time in the Air National Guard?
That he didn’t show up for duty in Alabama? That he missed a physical? That his daddy got him in?
News coverage of the president’s years in the Guard has tended to focus on one brief portion of that time — to the exclusion of virtually everything else. So just for the record, here, in full, is what Bush did:
The future president joined the Guard in May 1968. Almost immediately, he began an extended period of training. Six weeks of basic training. Fifty-three weeks of flight training. Twenty-one weeks of fighter-interceptor training.
That was 80 weeks to begin with, and there were other training periods thrown in as well. It was full-time work. By the time it was over, Bush had served nearly two years.
Not two years of weekends. Two years.
After training, Bush kept flying, racking up hundreds of hours in F-102 jets. As he did, he accumulated points toward his National Guard service requirements. At the time, guardsmen were required to accumulate a minimum of 50 points to meet their yearly obligation.
According to records released earlier this year, Bush earned 253 points in his first year, May 1968 to May 1969 (since he joined in May 1968, his service thereafter was measured on a May-to-May basis).
Bush earned 340 points in 1969-1970. He earned 137 points in 1970-1971. And he earned 112 points in 1971-1972. The numbers indicate that in his first four years, Bush not only showed up, he showed up a lot. Did you know that?
That brings the story to May 1972 — the time that has been the focus of so many news reports — when Bush “deserted” (according to anti-Bush filmmaker Michael Moore) or went “AWOL” (according to Terry McAuliffe, chairman of the Democratic National Committee).
Bush asked for permission to go to Alabama to work on a Senate campaign. His superior officers said OK. Requests like that weren’t unusual, says retired Col. William Campenni, who flew with Bush in 1970 and 1971.
“In 1972, there was an enormous glut of pilots,” Campenni says. “The Vietnam War was winding down, and the Air Force was putting pilots in desk jobs. In ’72 or ’73, if you were a pilot, active or Guard, and you had an obligation and wanted to get out, no problem. In fact, you were helping them solve their problem.”
So Bush stopped flying. From May 1972 to May 1973, he earned just 56 points — not much, but enough to meet his requirement.
Then, in 1973, as Bush made plans to leave the Guard and go to Harvard Business School, he again started showing up frequently.
In June and July of 1973, he accumulated 56 points, enough to meet the minimum requirement for the 1973-1974 year.
Then, at his request, he was given permission to go. Bush received an honorable discharge after serving five years, four months and five days of his original six-year commitment. By that time, however, he had accumulated enough points in each year to cover six years of service.
During his service, Bush received high marks as a pilot.
A 1970 evaluation said Bush “clearly stands out as a top notch fighter interceptor pilot” and was “a natural leader whom his contemporaries look to for leadership.”
A 1971 evaluation called Bush “an exceptionally fine young officer and pilot” who “continually flies intercept missions with the unit to increase his proficiency even further.” And a 1972 evaluation called Bush “an exceptional fighter interceptor pilot and officer.”
Now, it is only natural that news reports questioning Bush’s service — in The Boston Globe and The New York Times, on CBS and in other outlets — would come out now. Democrats are spitting mad over attacks on John Kerry’s record by the group Swift Boat Veterans for Truth.
And, as it is with Kerry, it’s reasonable to look at a candidate’s entire record, including his military service — or lack of it. Voters are perfectly able to decide whether it’s important or not in November.
The Kerry camp blames Bush for the Swift boat veterans’ attack, but anyone who has spent much time talking to the Swifties gets the sense that they are doing it entirely for their own reasons.
And it should be noted in passing that Kerry has personally questioned Bush’s service, while Bush has not personally questioned Kerry’s.
In April — before the Swift boat veterans had said a word — Kerry said Bush “has yet to explain to America whether or not, and tell the truth, about whether he showed up for duty.” Earlier, Kerry said, “Just because you get an honorable discharge does not, in fact, answer that question.”
Now, after the Swift boat episode, the spotlight has returned to Bush.
That’s fine. We should know as much as we can.
And perhaps someday Kerry will release more of his military records as well.
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Forgot the topic...
Howard Stern is a tool, however, IIRC he helped Christy Whitman gain a victory in New Jersey. Hardly a liberal.
There are a couple of radio guys in LA who are gonna make sure a Republican congressman and a Democrat lose in the fall just to send a message about illegal immigration. This should be interesting.
Political Human Sacrifice (http://www.johnandkenshow.com/index.php?p=426)
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The Kerry camp blames Bush for the Swift boat veterans’ attack, but anyone who has spent much time talking to the Swifties gets the sense that they are doing it entirely for their own reasons.
You have GOT to be kidding.:rofl Grun, are you that misinformed or just unwilling to accept the fact they are shills.
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Originally posted by rpm371
You have GOT to be kidding.:rofl Grun
Thats your response to the article?
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Originally posted by midnight Target
Forgot the topic...
Howard Stern is a tool, however, IIRC he helped Christy Whitman gain a victory in New Jersey. Hardly a liberal.
Political Human Sacrifice (http://www.johnandkenshow.com/index.php?p=426)
Just to keep the record straight
He help Christy get elected not because he agreed with her politics but because she promised him to have a rest stop named after him.
A promise she actually kept
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Originally posted by DREDIOCK
because she promised him to have a rest stop named after him.
A promise she actually kept
LOL, that's one. :D
Stern claimed to be a Republican until the FCC raised the penalty for obscenity on the air. I don't know what he claims to be now, but he is fighting the Republican party because of that.
There are other posibilities, but that is the most honorable one. The rest have to do with money and contracts.
I said 'most' honorable.
As in least detestable.