Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: airbumba on September 09, 2004, 08:43:45 PM
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Gamer or Simmer
I watched a show on PBS the other night about the evolution of the video game, it was a good show, but it might have just answered a few lingering questions I’ve had about Aces High it’s community and the ever present ‘two camps’ syndrome which seems to prevail every topic raised. I do not and will not pretend for a second to speak about the community as a whole or even two majorities, it’s an individually based dynamic entity constantly evolving, and answers to it’s ailments will be just as fluid.
After seeing that show, I’ve come to the conclusion that the community is loosely split between gamers and simmers, as mentioned before on this BBS. I understand more about the ‘gamer’ after watching that show. Some observations, the gamer is always in charge, if not in control, of the situation. Most gamers play roles where they are not themselves, whether through ‘god’ type games, or ‘rpg’ games. The purpose of many ‘games’, is escape from reality, or fantasy, by immersing yourself in a world full of situations where you can act any way you wish, because you are not playing as yourself. In fact it would be impossible to act as yourself in many ‘rpg’s, since staying ‘in character’ is what it’s all about.
The simmer, ‘flight simmer’ in this case would rather be in control of the situation than in charge of the game. Simmers play as themselves, by this I don’t mean they put their Soc. Sec.# as their CPID, I mean they are playing as they, themselves, would handle the situation in RL. Control of the aircraft is before gaming the game. Simmers are less inclined to be the crowd rushing off to buy the biggest machines, because graphics were just an added bonus to the early Flight Simms, and they ran on miniscule machines.
What’s this got to do with anyone here, well a few things..
(a)when an old MS Flight Simmer like myself sees all the people shooting down folks who say they can’t afford upgrading, I get confused? We’re not ‘gamers’, for many of us, the only game we play is a flight sim, (that’s my case anyway) so constant upgrading is new to us. Again just a misunderstanding between two worlds, the gamer and simmer.
(b)When a person comes from the ‘rpg’ gaming world , where they’ve never played as themselves and therefore their only community involvement has been anonymous, they might feel as if they can get away with acting in a different manner, then they would in RL, as themselves. This would make it very difficult to form a sense of community.
(c)Finally I want to mention the aviation community. Firstly and foremost, that is the category most of us fit in. We all love airplanes. We wish we could swan about poking the clouds and buzzing the fields. Even for those of us who do fly in RL, we can’t do what we can in a simm. Ultimately the respect I hope returns to this community, can , and will only return when gamers and simmers alike aspire to show the aviation community the respect it deserves
So what to do?
Next time think before you speak.
I find it a bit odd that the same guy that has a touching saying in his signature showing respect for a WW2 pilot, turns around and spews vile trashtalk at another guy with a similar sig, in a game that is supposed to be a kind of testimonial to our lasting respect of all WW2 pilots.
Before you start ranting and flaming someone, think first, maybe that person just finished spending 50 hours on the making of that last scenario you enjoyed so much.
Be a good sport. Maybe that guy you just flamed for shooting you down was enjoying a quiet fun moment in an otherwise very difficult day. Don’t wait to find out the same guy has a sick kid in a hospital somewhere to say your sorry, don’t say it in the first place.
I'm not perfect, lol, by no means, I don't flame anyone , but I can ramble on range, or type to much, I'll fix that.
Well that’s about enough of your time, thanks for listening and I look forward to watching as the good folk in this community take it back.
CYA up there.
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Great Post
My 2 cents....The Gamers have taken over and trying to turn a good sim into a game.
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Originally posted by ASTAC
The Gamers have taken over and trying to turn a good sim into a game.
or perhaps gamers mature into simmers....
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It's much easier to game a war than to sim a war. War requires people to give and follow orders, and to risk their lives. No amount of sim design will change the fact that gamers are more suited to the reality of sims/games. AH has the flexibility to accomodate simmers through scenarios and special events, but most people have limited time and go for the quick adrenalin rush of gamey flying. The problem is not with sim/game designers, but with the gaming/simming public.
ra
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I guess you can look at it from a few different angles.
I see it like this....
1>Gamer- Someone who will do with less eye candy, and will not hold the designer to the letter on all the mundane stuff, such as the paint scheme on that PZIV is a shade too light, or the plane has less Hp than it should at 20000ft.
As long as there is a structure to the game, that makes for a variety of ways to play it, full of strategy, and options that make the game deep.
(Last seen at a football game)
2>Simmer- Someone who demands all the mundane details, and sacrifice gameplay just so they can feel they are the ww2 pilot, not some guy playing a game. WW2OL is a good example...a complete bakery, minus the oven.
(Last seen sorting his socks)
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Originally posted by ASTAC
Great Post
My 2 cents....The Gamers have taken over and trying to turn a good sim into a game.
I agree , a gamer wants to win at all cost, always fly the best plane now, must win, must score points !
That's part of the reason they hate the ENY thing - it might reduce their chance of winning the "game" and scoring points, or whatever it is they hold dear.
A simmer would love the fight/flight wouldn't he , and fly whatever plane was available at the time.
That's what you were thinking wasn't it
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Originally posted by Redd
I agree , a gamer wants to win at all cost, always fly the best plane now, must win, must score points !
That's part of the reason they hate the ENY thing - it might reduce their chance of winning the "game" and scoring points, or whatever it is they hold dear.
A simmer would love the fight/flight wouldn't he , and fly whatever plane was available at the time.
That's what you were thinking wasn't it
Well I still wanna fly my favorite plane, but yes
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Originally posted by FiLtH
I guess you can look at it from a few different angles.
I see it like this....
1>Gamer- Someone who will do with less eye candy, and will not hold the designer to the letter on all the mundane stuff, such as the paint scheme on that PZIV is a shade too light, or the plane has less Hp than it should at 20000ft.
As long as there is a structure to the game, that makes for a variety of ways to play it, full of strategy, and options that make the game deep.
(Last seen at a football game)
2>Simmer- Someone who demands all the mundane details, and sacrifice gameplay just so they can feel they are the ww2 pilot, not some guy playing a game. WW2OL is a good example...a complete bakery, minus the oven.
(Last seen sorting his socks)
Without disrespcting your view Filth, I see it as the opposite. When I first flew MS Flight sim, it was so I could take the 172 into vfr , and bad weather conditions, the only graphics that worked for me was the dash, gauges. I was after controlling the situation, and not the 'game'.
But I kinda cross over to what your saying about simmers and details. Yes , if the details are a necessary tool in controlling the situation, but I don't think a true simm needs the graphics to fulfill that. But I must admit, the way you put it, kinda makes it seem that the line between the two is really , really fine.
p.s: You didn't get ALL your socks back, did you? You must be missing one at least? ;)
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Originally posted by ra
It's much easier to game a war than to sim a war. War requires people to give and follow orders, and to risk their lives. No amount of sim design will change the fact that gamers are more suited to the reality of sims/games. AH has the flexibility to accomodate simmers through scenarios and special events, but most people have limited time and go for the quick adrenalin rush of gamey flying. The problem is not with sim/game designers, but with the gaming/simming public.
ra
Good point Ra .
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My experience is that gamers get crusty britches over fancy graphic effects; where as simmers look for precise modeling.
Gamers tend to be much more selfish, I find - willing to hack games if need be even if it ruins it for everyone else. Simmer's tend to respect the genre the game is representing, even to the point of not using Lancs as dive bombers (shocking, but true!).
-DoK
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its all these damn dryerlint radishes being devoured by seagulls wearing snowshoes.
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Originally posted by airbumba
(c)Finally I want to mention the aviation community. Firstly and foremost, that is the category most of us fit in. We all love airplanes. We wish we could swan about poking the clouds and buzzing the fields. Even for those of us who do fly in RL, we can’t do what we can in a simm. Ultimately the respect I hope returns to this community, can , and will only return when gamers and simmers alike aspire to show the aviation community the respect it deserves
No Disrespect intended for those of you that love aviation, But I dont believe this true. I think the community is mostly Gamers and Simmers, even history Buffs and Not Aviation lovers.
I say this because only the tinyest fraction of AH Folks have ever been to the Meca of Aviation, I have been shocked at how few people here even know what it is. If your really Truley an aviation person, you would strive to make the pilgramige at somepoint. I see almost total lack of interest here in the largest aviation event in the world.
This doesnt mean folks are bad, or dont love flying AH and flight Sims. To me it just means they are more in to Computer stuff than Aviation. Maybe Im wrong, but thats how I interperate things. Just a different take on your comments.
Good Post BTW :)
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its all these damn dryerlint radishes being devoured by seagulls wearing snowshoes.
I'm with Doobs on this one.
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Originally posted by Horn
or perhaps gamers mature into simmers....
....after the weak are weeded out. ;-)
Anim
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Originally posted by airbumba
Gamer or Simmer
I watched a show on PBS the other night about the evolution of the video game, it was a good show, but it might have just answered a few lingering questions I’ve had about Aces High it’s community and the ever present ‘two camps’ syndrome which seems to prevail every topic raised. I do not and will not pretend for a second to speak about the community as a whole or even two majorities, it’s an individually based dynamic entity constantly evolving, and answers to it’s ailments will be just as fluid.
After seeing that show, I’ve come to the conclusion that the community is loosely split between gamers and simmers, as mentioned before on this BBS. I understand more about the ‘gamer’ after watching that show. Some observations, the gamer is always in charge, if not in control, of the situation. Most gamers play roles where they are not themselves, whether through ‘god’ type games, or ‘rpg’ games. The purpose of many ‘games’, is escape from reality, or fantasy, by immersing yourself in a world full of situations where you can act any way you wish, because you are not playing as yourself. In fact it would be impossible to act as yourself in many ‘rpg’s, since staying ‘in character’ is what it’s all about.
The simmer, ‘flight simmer’ in this case would rather be in control of the situation than in charge of the game. Simmers play as themselves, by this I don’t mean they put their Soc. Sec.# as their CPID, I mean they are playing as they, themselves, would handle the situation in RL. Control of the aircraft is before gaming the game. Simmers are less inclined to be the crowd rushing off to buy the biggest machines, because graphics were just an added bonus to the early Flight Simms, and they ran on miniscule machines.
What’s this got to do with anyone here, well a few things..
(a)when an old MS Flight Simmer like myself sees all the people shooting down folks who say they can’t afford upgrading, I get confused? We’re not ‘gamers’, for many of us, the only game we play is a flight sim, (that’s my case anyway) so constant upgrading is new to us. Again just a misunderstanding between two worlds, the gamer and simmer.
(b)When a person comes from the ‘rpg’ gaming world , where they’ve never played as themselves and therefore their only community involvement has been anonymous, they might feel as if they can get away with acting in a different manner, then they would in RL, as themselves. This would make it very difficult to form a sense of community.
(c)Finally I want to mention the aviation community. Firstly and foremost, that is the category most of us fit in. We all love airplanes. We wish we could swan about poking the clouds and buzzing the fields. Even for those of us who do fly in RL, we can’t do what we can in a simm. Ultimately the respect I hope returns to this community, can , and will only return when gamers and simmers alike aspire to show the aviation community the respect it deserves
So what to do?
Next time think before you speak.
I find it a bit odd that the same guy that has a touching saying in his signature showing respect for a WW2 pilot, turns around and spews vile trashtalk at another guy with a similar sig, in a game that is supposed to be a kind of testimonial to our lasting respect of all WW2 pilots.
Before you start ranting and flaming someone, think first, maybe that person just finished spending 50 hours on the making of that last scenario you enjoyed so much.
Be a good sport. Maybe that guy you just flamed for shooting you down was enjoying a quiet fun moment in an otherwise very difficult day. Don’t wait to find out the same guy has a sick kid in a hospital somewhere to say your sorry, don’t say it in the first place.
I'm not perfect, lol, by no means, I don't flame anyone , but I can ramble on range, or type to much, I'll fix that.
Well that’s about enough of your time, thanks for listening and I look forward to watching as the good folk in this community take it back.
CYA up there.
Awsome post, I'll be looking fr the show. ;-)
Anim
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Originally posted by DoKGonZo
Gamers tend to be much more selfish, I find - willing to hack games if need be even if it ruins it for everyone else. Simmer's tend to respect the genre the game is representing, even to the point of not using Lancs as dive bombers (shocking, but true!).
-DoK
Just what I was trying to convey, although it's better coming from someone with the proper crudentials. In that same line of thought, the gamer traits you point out, would also be a poor base for the structuring of a stable community.
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Originally posted by doobs
its all these damn dryerlint radishes being devoured by seagulls wearing snowshoes.
Who's this Dobbs guy? Oh it's Doobs...man you're out there dude. Radishes, lint...?
are you related to Lou Dobbs , on CNN?...oh it's Doobs....Lou Doobs?
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Originally posted by airbumba
crudentials.
My favorite new word!!!
It's just like Credentials... Except that its all Crud...
Oh god you've made me a happy man!
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Great Post Airbumba!!!
Interesting responses! Very subjective and as two of you mentioned, it is a very fine line between gamers and simmers and also an immense grey area. I would think we all have the ability to do both.
For example, I fancy myself a simmer, because I play and post as myself, and one of the most important things is the accuracy of the flight model and feel of the controls etc, but on the other hand I do want the great graphics and kick prettythang machine.
On the side of community dynamics, which I think games like these and the internet give a facinating look at, I find it interesting how most posters have all commented, including myself, on the distinction which polarizes the community into two camps, gamers vs. simmers.
But no one has commented on the point of Airbumba's post, which was about conduct and treating others with more courtesy and respect. To think before you flame or freak. That is a great message that I think we all tend to forget from time to time.
WTG Airbumba, thanks for the reminder. :aok
AND
FU to all those guys that shot me down tonight, :D (Just Kidding)
All
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Originally posted by airbumba
Just what I was trying to convey, although it's better coming from someone with the proper crudentials. In that same line of thought, the gamer traits you point out, would also be a poor base for the structuring of a stable community.
Well, as others have been pointing out lately, maybe the community just needs to be more demanding. And what scenario development showed me is that even the most blood-curdlingly inbred dweeb can be transformed into something resembling a decent pilot - given the right environment to do so. So there's hope, but change is needed at different levels.
So we have gamers arriving here and the only glory they can see is the "Megadweeb landed 5 kills in his La-7" messages ... and all the "wtg's" that come from it. What's the quickest way to get one of these? Vultch. In "the scores" they're just as good as someone who, like, shot down planes with their landing gear actually up, right?
So, just for the sake of argument, lets see what we can fix by messing with one little thing- the kills landed messages. Change them to: "A member of the XXX squadron just landed Y kills." Wow ... the only way to get that glory now is as a squad. While this will result in a lot of dweeb squads, at least now players are getting into a more structured environment.
Now, suppose that squad kill message then did a quick rifle through the stats and if the squad is in the top 10 in any category that's measured, the message has appended to it: "The squad now ranks 5th in kill/death ratio" ... or whatever stat they're best at in the top 10. Now players will start to compete as squadrons. Clans ... thats something gamers can get into, right? And if you limit the stats that get announced to those which can't be easily optimized with pork-based tactics, they will need to work for it.
Same deal when a base is captured - say which squadron got the troops in.
Then do one more thing on the kills landed message ... announce assists as well. People get so upset when they only get assists, but in the bigger picture the guy who lands 1 kill and 4 assists means some team-mates were able to land 4 kills and probably get home. I mean, they announce assists in hockey, right?
But ... make one ever-so-slight change to the way assists work. The assist can only come BEFORE the fatal shot was landed. This means that glomming onto a smoker in hopes of stealing the kill becomes a lot less profitable and the assist goes to the guy who took some risk setting up a kill for somone else.
So, a simple thing like changing the kill award messages could change a lot. And, by doing so we're teaching the gamers about how to achieve results through teamwork. Basically teach them that there's no "i" in "dweeb."
-DoK
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Originally posted by Grimm
I say this because only the tinyest fraction of AH Folks have ever been to the Meca of Aviation, I have been shocked at how few people here even know what it is. If your really Truley an aviation person, you would strive to make the pilgramige at somepoint. I see almost total lack of interest here in the largest aviation event in the world.
Got to say I really like aviation stories, TV shows, etc., but I have no idea what you are talking about? Fill me in, if it's not on the other side of the planet I'll try to get to it.
The closest thing to any "Meca" I've been to is an air museum in Polk City Florida... Was cool though, IIRC they had a B-24 on display, a B-17 that you could walk inside and "man the guns", and a pretty cool flight simulator where you actually sat in a sim pit and went against oh maybe 20 people...
Oh, and back on topic (sorry) Airbumba, great post! Too many people are getting angry lately... Well I've only been here a short while but it still seems like people are getting more frustrated and angry lately (at least in Knightland).
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Awesome Bumba
bro
I said the same thing many times a few posts back.
Myself, I fit into the "Sim" catagory, I always have prob always will.
I love WWII history, one of the main reasons I really like AH, just not so much with the planes.
This is one of the reasons I was always puzzled by the community, they say hey "it's a flight sim" and to me most of the time people play the game as a "game" not a "sim" Hence, the reason I always kinda poked at HTC asking them to make it a Sim or a Game, difficult to do both.
I still believe "Sims" attrack a different crowd than "game" players and I bet if ya took a poll "Sim" would prob win!
Great post tho
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Gonzo states:
"So, just for the sake of argument, lets see what we can fix by messing with one little thing- the kills landed messages. Change them to: "A member of the XXX squadron just landed Y kills." Wow ... the only way to get that glory now is as a squad. While this will result in a lot of dweeb squads, at least now players are getting into a more structured environment.
Now, suppose that squad kill message then did a quick rifle through the stats and if the squad is in the top 10 in any category that's measured, the message has appended to it: "The squad now ranks 5th in kill/death ratio" ... or whatever stat they're best at in the top 10. Now players will start to compete as squadrons. Clans ... thats something gamers can get into, right? And if you limit the stats that get announced to those which can't be easily optimized with pork-based tactics, they will need to work for it"
This is all great stuff, I posted something like this not too long ago. Except I took it one step further, there is no "death message" there is no "your squad is ranked" such & such. I say make those all go away, no points, perks, bonus', none of that stuff. Because just as it is now, the first thing it seems people do is to look at who is ranked what, with how many kills and in what plane. If the game is based on numbers, it wil be played FOR numbers. In WWII a HUD didn't pop up and tell you, you shot down an enemy A/C! ? Now they did kinda keep score of the "kills" they got, but that was about it. Not that this has anything to do with AH, nor do I compare the two but in WWII Online {yeah I know it's not perfect either, so save it} If you kill an enemy, you do just that kill an enemy. No death messages, no "you killed he11Dog555" nope, nothing at all. You either surrvied your mission, survied your mission w/two killed rifleman, or you DIED!
My 2cents
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Originally posted by DoKGonZo
So, just for the sake of argument, lets see what we can fix by messing with one little thing- the kills landed messages. Change them to: "A member of the XXX squadron just landed Y kills."
Now, suppose that squad kill message then did a quick rifle through the stats and if the squad is in the top 10 in any category that's measured, the message has appended to it: "The squad now ranks 5th in kill/death ratio" ... or whatever stat they're best at in the top 10.
Same deal when a base is captured - say which squadron got the troops in.
Then do one more thing on the kills landed message ... announce assists as well.
Hehe .... geez, DoK ... wouldn't it just be easier to just ditch all glorydog messages?
But .... on the gamer/simmer black and white classification thang:
While I like Bumba's post I don't entirely agree with it's premise (at least in regards to the communities I've belonged to online so far). Although I certainly see those two personalities exhibited in the community I see them as extremes (granted .... I also see each end having more than a minimal percentage of the population). I've also noticed players that I suppose, for lack of a better term, could be classified as gamer/simmer hybrids. I belong to that particular demographic.
These would be the players who've enjoyed sims, strategy games and role-play type games over time and wouldn't mind seeing elements of each combined. Sure, some find one aspect more appealing than the other but they appreciate the differences and what place they do or don't have in whatever enviroment they're currently playing in.
Aces High actually has more depth to it than most games online and can be customized to suit different demographics of the community. By and large, the player base plays in the main arena which is set up to be as generic as possible. There are three sides that participate in a three way free-for all RISK style territory capture and nobody belongs to a side that depicts itself as a virtual representation of any of the nations that actually participated in World War II. The terrains are custom created to be as equal as possible when the arena is reset and aren't representations of any actual geographic region. All aircraft modeled for Aces High are available within the limits of whatever has been coded in the system to try to assure some degree of balance.
That, right there, is an important clue that Aces High is a game.
Players can earn points for air to air kills (with modifiers applied depending on whether they make it back to land, are forced to ditch in friendly or enemy territory, bail over friendly or enemy territory or are killed). They can earn points for conducting air to ground attacks and bomb runs, ground to ground fights between vehicles, base captures and defending bases abd ships via ground and ship guns. This is true for all servers, plane match-ups, settings and enviroments. It's player feedback. A measure of success.
Methods vary. Players can operate as lone wolfs or in wolf packs. They can dive into the middle of furballs and go berzerk. They can load up with fuel, grab alt and look for prey to snipe. They can make head on attacks. They can vulch aircraft taking off. They can drive a tank or ostie or other vehicle to a spawnpoint, anticipating players from other sides spawning there and pick them off. They can take command of fleets and take them out to sea or use them to assault bases on the coast. They can look for easy routes to get their bombers to a target and back with the minimum of opposition (none being preferred by many). They can take heavy bombers and make suicide attacks on bases for the sake of either disabling something that makes it harder for the other side to use that base effectively or to assist in the capture of bases/territory. ALL within the design and parameters of Aces High. Yes ... all of this is by design. Players prefer some methods over others. Players hold some methods in disdain. And which specific ones are considered acceptable or not in their eyes vary from player to player.
Group strategies are actually less varied in the MA. Who do we attack? Where do we attack? What do we attack with? Are we a cohesive group or are we a chaotic mass? Do we have numbers? Should we devote ourselves to defending a base or front?
And since the goal of the main arena is to "win" a reset, each side, by default, plays "RISK." Players often mistake the MA goal of reset to be the goal of all server enviroments in the game but, in actuality, it's specific to that one arena.
So still .... we have a game more than a sim.
BUT ...
HTC has devoted itself to making Ace's High the premier online mmoSIM by spending a great deal of effort on the flightmodel as well as the comsetics of over 70 aircraft, vehicles, ships and boats (well boat). The gunnery, damage model and even details such as blackouts, pilot wounds, oil on the windscreen were all developed to give the players a sense of immersion. And it was coded is such a way to keep the community from suffering bloated downloads. The coding is lean and mean.
Once players venture out of the main arena into the Combat Arena or into an event they find that they can further immerse themselves into a setting that involves historically accurate plane match-ups and terrains (or at least will, again, as the terrains and more models fill in the gaps currently in the system).
Events are more structured, having rules and guidelines designed to reduce the chance of "rogue" players ruining the immersion for the whole group. The Combat Theater, though less structured, offers a taste of history by having historical match-ups and realistic terrains on a weekly rotation 24 hours a day.
This makes Ace's High not only a simulation but a place to "re-enact"* famous air (and possibly land and sea) battles from WWII.
Ok ... there's two aspects of the game ... a dual personality, if you will.
Role-play can exist in either enviroment. With the CT it requires the flexibility of changing a squadron's personality to reflect what's available there that week. In the MA it requires a great deal of suspension of disbelief or perhaps just completely ignoring the fact that P-51s in U.S. markings are fighting opposing P-51s in U.S. markings for a piece of territory referred to a "Pizza" (not to be confused with Pizza , Italy).
So ... does each player have to be one or the other? Not really. Even if their personality is a cocktail of all of the above, each one can be (and probably is) uniquely different.
If you stop and think about it, this may actually be one of the greatest strengths of Ace's High that will keep it a viable community and product for years to come.
(Geez ... if I spent this much effort every night working on writing short stories or novel chapters I'd probably be published by now)
I'm tired ... I'm sure whoever took the time to read this is too. But I think I'll go to bed.
:p
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Gamers can mature into simmers, hmmm, THAT's an interesting point. The first computer I ever bought was 100% a gaming machine and I spent a lot of time playing all sorts of games, starting with Wolfenstein 3D and Chuck Yeagers Air combat.
About 12 years later I own a good machine which is now 2 years old but was top spec. back then, so runs AHII just fine. I was a little afraid that I had to upgrade again (as I had to do so many times before to play the latests games) but no. So the urge for the latests and the best has gone, I just want to play 'my game'.
I have been aware of an on-line 'community' sicne Air Warrior and when I was graduating, with the internet as we know it gaining momentum, I got very interested in what was then Warbirds. I read stories about virtual pilots, reviews, downloaded screenshots etc. The idea of sharing a virtual arena with fellow aviation enthousiasts, interested in WWII aircraft was (and still is) very appealling. That got me started in AHII eventually! I think of AHII as a Sim, more than a Game. That having said I don't like MS Flightsim and such, that is just boring to me. But 'playing' the WWII pilot in a Spit of 109 is a dream come true and AHII is just what I wanted.
What has appalled me since day one is the rudeness of a lot of people. Indeed, I post and fly like myself, as I think is appropriate to behave irl. It is incomprehensible to me the way people think they can behave on something as anonymous as the internet. Would they talk and act like that to their wives, children, friends, bosses, colleagues, family? They would get assaulted, divorced, sued or end up very alone the least!
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I'm of the "hardcore" type WWII combat simmer.
I want all the detail of Il-2 Sturmovik, with the physics accuracy of AHII (not that I didn't say the physics accuracy of Il-2. This is because there are SERIOUS drag and acceleration problems that make it seem as if you're flying on the moon).
I want my snowy Eastern Front battles between Germany and the Soviet Union. I want engine defects. I want complete accuracy in the sound reproduction system.
Most of all, I'd rather have the CT as the main room, and just throw the MA in the trash. Limited planesets, historic maps, battles, and skins are my thing.
I also want night-time and weather effects. There's much, much more, but I don't wanna take up half a page.
I've noticed that very few people in AH respect my views for a sim like this. I understand them, as they aren't the type who give a damn about anything but scoring points. This is what I'd want if I were to make a WWII flight sim.
I'm a gamer. But, when it comes to sims, I'm a hardcore simmer. I wouldn't want it any other way.
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Well Im a gamer. I have no real flight experience. However I do ok in here. I think that for the simmer...its the last resort of consolation to his ego..."If it were a better sim, I would have had him!".
Guys, if AH2, or WW2OL could afford it, Im sure they would select 200 people, that play the way they prefer, and make a private club. Everyone would play "realistically" even if the game allowed otherwise. But since they can't afford it, us peasants, us huddled masses, us dregs of society have to come here and support the game that you want to sim. Unfortunately not everyone wants to play a sim...some of us work hard, and want to play easy. Id suggest forming a club, and creating a game you can sim, and keep the undesirables out.
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Nice post Bumba, I agree with your comments regarding civility. I always try to remain civil and cordial. Sometimes I am more successful with those efforts than others.
But IMHO the line between gamers and simmers is not so black and white, nor is it just two opposing sides. There may be as many as a dozen different groups who each want conflicting things in their game. Just for example you have strategic guys who want to capture bases and win the war and you have fighter jocks who just want to duel it out in dogfights. The line is also blurred by other factors such as other interests and playing style. A person's flying style will sometimes change from day to day as mine does. Sometimes I just wanna fly to 5K and furball for 30-45 minutes and hang it up. Other times I'll fly to 12-15K and have a few hour long lone wolf sorties. Maybe that just means I am on the fence, but I don't think that is what it means.
I love computer games, and I love WWII history, particularly the airwar. I bought a computer to play video games, but the games I wanted to play were the simulators of their day. Indy500 and Battlehawks1942 to be specific. They were about as hard-core realistic as you could find at the time and I've always graduated toward the hyper realistic games in any genre. For example I prefer COD to RTCW and the MOH series.
Basically I agree with Fruda when it comes to my taste in games, although I dislike the gunnery in IL2 more then the FM. The more realism that can be coded into my games the more I like them. I wish the MA was replaced by the CT or TOD. But I also recognize that that will probably NEVER happen.
The fact of the matter is that AH is not just a game/sim, it is a business. AH is playing to all markets, and I think that is the correct business decision. HTC has done an amazing job of balancing the 5-7 camps that are all trying to pull the game more towards their side of the fence. How else can a CEO maximize his marketshare?
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Don't realy agree with your catagory description. I see gammers and simmers being the same thing.
I see it more as a break down between Roll player , ACM, and strat player.
Some people want to feel like they are in WWII. And act like a pilot.
Other people want to learn all about ACM and the best way to fight aircraft.
Other people want to win the war.
HiTech
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I'd say some, myself for example, want all of those.
Listed in order of importance( to me):
I....
1) ...want to feel like they are in WWII. And act like a pilot.
2) ...want to learn all about ACM and the best way to fight aircraft.
3) ...want to win the war (fight).
*snipped my additional redundant remarks as Hitech is right. I guess as cat 1 type that cat 2 and 3 wants naturally follow.
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That would be catagory 1 westy
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you're right. My "bad"
Um. while you're here can I interview you quickly on HTC's up & coming "TOD? :)
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Originally posted by Westy
I'd say some, myself for example, want all of those.
Listed in order of importance( to me):
I....
1) ...want to feel like they are in WWII. And act like a pilot.
2) ...want to learn all about ACM and the best way to fight aircraft.
3) ...want to win the war (fight).
Actually, there is a fourth category. Those just looking for fun. I like WW2 aircraft. I find ACM interesting. But, I am not fanatical about either of these categories. Win the war??? As long as losing the war doesn't negatively impact my fun...I could care less.
What I have found to be funny over the years is that sim nazis will often push for the most pointless, realistic features at the expense of game play. Game goobers will often go the opposite way. HT has done an excellent job of balancing the desires of both camps.
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Great responses folks
.
As Mars said…Very subjective and as two of you mentioned, it is a very fine line between gamers and simmers and also an immense grey area. I would think we all have the ability to do both.
From the responses, I have to agree that the line between the two camps is really fine, maybe trying to give one or the other a definition in regards to AH is an impossible task. That in mind, it must be said that there are clearly separate and distinctive views of the game shown by the majority of players, hence the polarization we see now. How some players views affect the gameplay of others and the subsequent direction of the game, is the million dollar question.
When Dok points out that with change at different levels and given the right environment, a pilots gameplay can be changed. Exactly, but back to the big question, are the players changing the environment, or is the environment changing the players? This is I believe one of the present points of contention.
When Moil considers himself a ‘simmer’ in a flight simm, even thought he may be in vehicles most of the time, is it not true that a ‘flight simm’ must have things like, GV’s, ack, and weather to be a true simm? Maybe for a simmer, but does the gamer deem those things necessary for the gameplay as they see it? Maybe not, but to an arcade style gamer , such things as limited gas/ammo, are a pain. Again separate camps.
I also agree with Arlo when he says AH has more depth then any online game, I’ll have to take your word on that Arlo, since I haven’t played many of the online games. The only difference I have , is I’d call it a simm, not a game, but again is that even a distinction that’s possible to make? Again, the million dollar question.
I understand HT saying that , in his view, there are three separate camps, splitting it right down the middle, one looks like a gamer view, one like a simmer view and the third a blend of the two. This may be , yet there is still a defining of camps, and pointing that out was my intention in this post.
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Originally posted by Westy
...
1) ...want to feel like they are in WWII. And act like a pilot.
2) ...want to learn all about ACM and the best way to fight aircraft.
3) ...want to win the war (fight).
...
If you don't want to do (2), you really can't seriously do (1).
I think that the (3)'s are the more dominant voice now in terms of the MA environment, whereas the (2)'s mentality more or less govern the game mechanics.
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I will try to explain myself better and not quite as cripticly.
The Meca of Aviation if you will is AirVenture at Oshkosh. The fact that I was asked even backs up what I believe. It is the largest event of its type in the world, featuring thousands of aircraft and nearly a million visitors each year. Its a week long event. Anyone that flys, wants to fly, builds, researches aircraft all know and most dream of attending.
Iv often wondered wondered why AH has never reached out to this huge opertunity to be exposed to so many potential customers. Many other Sims do. Perhaps its because AH pilots mostly come from Computer guys, not aviation guys.
I would guess most AH Pilots are CyberPilots first, Aviation enthusists second if at all. Nothing wrong with that.
So, As we debate weather guys are Simmers or Gamers, AB said they were all Aviation Fans. I propose that majority are really Simmers and Gamers first and formost. They spend hours and hours honing skills and learning their cybercraft. I would bet that spend much less time doing actual aviation things. Doing what you enjoy is important.
I like to think I fit somewhere in between but I probably am more a computer guy than not. I get airborn whenever possible, Iv been to most of the major A/C sites around the country a few overseas, and Oshkosh is a must each year. Yet I also Fly AH whenever I get some free time and enjoy it alot.
To conclude, AH pilots are Gamers and Simmers. Some are Aviation fans.
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What I was getting at is that if you read the memoirs of the pilots, they all had extensive training about the planes and how to use them. When you see photos of these guys back then, half the time they're using their hands (with thumb and pinky extended as "wings") to show the move they used in their last fight. My point was that you can't "act like" a WW2 pilot without knowing what the hell you're doing and why.
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DoK,
I think I follow you, But I dont have a clue what Im doing, but I try to act like a WWII Pilot when I drink shots of JD. ;)
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Originally posted by Grimm
No Disrespect intended for those of you that love aviation, But I dont believe this true. I think the community is mostly Gamers and Simmers, even history Buffs and Not Aviation lovers.
I say this because only the tinyest fraction of AH Folks have ever been to the Meca of Aviation, I have been shocked at how few people here even know what it is. If your really Truley an aviation person, you would strive to make the pilgramige at somepoint. I see almost total lack of interest here in the largest aviation event in the world.
I would have to disagree with you here Grimm, most here do love aviatin, most here don't live close enough to Oshkosh event and can not afford the luxury of attending it, I also think their are a good many here in the AH community that would love to attend this event if they could afford it.
I myself attend airshows when I can, but I have never been to the Meca show......
I think most people here have a desire of interest of the aviation world as far as WWII aircraft go, if they didn't they would not be here They would be off playing quake, or someother FPS game or another RPG.........
It is the thought of fantasizing you in the cockpit of a WWII aircraft and having the ability to virtually fly, for the simple reason you can not afford what a few here can and go to combatUSA, or some other real life ACM flight School .
Yes alot are gamers and or Simmers but alot are also aviation enthusiasts
and this is a great post airbumba
Grimm, was a good idea you had about HTC promoting Aceshigh at OshKosh
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I hear what you're saying DoK and I agree.
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Hmmmmm........maybe best way to combine simmer and gamer.
Is to issue no points. K/D ratio might be best way to earn the right to fly a Tempest etc. Maybe combine with k/hr.
And last but not least number of kills. If you're simmer tho...k/hr though is really not realistic. Hell.......if Chuck Yeager had a 3 kill per hour rate....on one five hour flight he would have to have 15 confirmed kills. Somehow I don't think they flew like that.
Do the math.......these guys flew lots of hours and I don't think one of them had close to 1 kill per hour.
And face it....if a guy was worried about k/d and didn't engage enough to earn a number of kills....he/she would never be able to fly a perk plane.
Just a thought.....maybe can be expanded upon....who knows?
Worked overtime ...tired....the above statement does not reflect the thoughts and opinions of our sponsors (disclaimer)
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It is worth injecting into this that there are folks who care about the realism of the physics simulation, but not the realism of the wargame.
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Originally posted by Hajo
Hmmmmm........maybe best way to combine simmer and gamer.
Is to issue no points. K/D ratio might be best way to earn the right to fly a Tempest etc. Maybe combine with k/hr.
And last but not least number of kills. If you're simmer tho...k/hr though is really not realistic. Hell.......if Chuck Yeager had a 3 kill per hour rate....on one five hour flight he would have to have 15 confirmed kills. Somehow I don't think they flew like that.
...
Using K/D as the means of scoring will result in horrificly defensive flying. We been there with the old ELO system in AW and it sucked rocks.
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I will try to explain my personal view of the gaming /simulation dynamics involved with this fine game we all know as Aces High 2.
I like ta shoot dim red sumbishes and watch'm go boom.
But I digress.
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I love hunting live meat... in this case rooks... They’re like baby seals... big dark wet eyes, cute white fur and
the fact that they scream and whine when getting whacked with my very vintage, well oiled seal whacking bat.
I love seeing a rook plane lit up like Sox park and feeling their pain as hopes of his returning fade with every bullet hole in the windshield.
And when the rook is tumbling, in flames and trashing his keyboard out of blind hate, and yelling so loud that I can hear though the either of the Internet, THAT GD DWEEB CHI
My heart soar, like a winged eagle and feel the warm satisfaction that I killed a rook ego and ruined his KD...
Chi
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Originally posted by Chitownflyer
... I can hear though the either of the Internet, THAT GD DWEEB CHI ...
Something tells me Rooks would have no shortage of reasons to call you a dweeb.
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TC,
Im not saying you and many others dont have a love for aviation, But most dont put aviation first, they put Gaming and Simming first.
Im going to pick on you here to help illistrate my point, no flame intended. How much time did you devote to flying online vs time spent on real life aviation? Also did you spend more on Computer upgrades then on airshows, flying lessons, kit aircraft or another aviation thing? Have you taken the time to go to Sun-n-Fun or to Kermit Weeks place?
If you spend more time online and more effort into flying AH then I would say your a Gamer/Simmer first.
For myself, I did Oshkosh for a week, and went flying a couple times this year. I know I stuck more money in computers than I did in Real life Aviation things. I done alot of aviation things many only dream of, Yet If loved aviation so much Id be working on an ultralight or something. I spend my time with AH. So I guess in truth Im more of a Gamer/Simmer than anything.
It doesnt mean that I dont love Aviation, But I do put a higher priority on AH. I think that is norm around here. Again, Nothing wrong with this.
I just believe that AH pilots are mostly Gamers/Simmers more than Aviation people.
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Originally posted by Chitownflyer
I love hunting live meat... in this case rooks... They’re like baby seals... big dark wet eyes, cute white fur and
the fact that they scream and whine when getting whacked with my very vintage, well oiled seal whacking bat.
Chi
Chi,
I would recommend the band "Great Big Sea" and the fine song they do called "Ferryland Sealer". Its a tune that is all about going Sealing. Check out the song clip on thier website
Great Big Sea (http://www.greatbigsea.com/themusic/turn.cfm)
The Refain reminds me of your whacking bat
Laddie whack fall the laddie, laddie whack fall the day
Enjoy!
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Originally posted by airbumba
Who's this Dobbs guy? Oh it's Doobs...man you're out there dude. Radishes, lint...?
are you related to Lou Dobbs , on CNN?...oh it's Doobs....Lou Doobs?
(http://www.augustbach.com/dobbs.gif)
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Putting labels on things and trying to fit them into categories is part of understanding, but constant changes in life and definitions often make labeling more futile than useful.
Most people are never 100% or even 50% how they are labelled by anyone. Simmer (gotta like that term) or gamer, Republican or Democratic, liberal or conservative, most people and issues are far too complicated to fit into any simple label.
This thread's starter post focuses on how Aces High members treat each other during the game and on this bulletin board. As another plea for more empathy and civility, it applies to all participants -- simmer, gamer, or any other label.
But as we all know ... it's impossible to please everyone.
One person's clever flame is another's mortal insult.
One person loves riposte, another brandishes Miss Manners.
Some people live to provoke whether in innocence or malice; others collect Purple Hearts for hurt feelings.
Some are pure enough to already fly with angels; others ought to donate their bodies to science yesterday.
Beyond the flak and rescue voyages, Aces High is just an ordinary routine state-of-the-art leading edge technopsychobabble global arewehavingfunyet license to cyber thrill.
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As long as hitech uses "GameID"s and not "SimID"s... I guess we are all gamers.
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Originally posted by G0ALY
As long as hitech uses "GameID"s and not "SimID"s... I guess we are all gamers.
LOL! Bingo! :)
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Originally posted by Grimm
Im going to pick on you here to help illistrate my point, no flame intended. How much time did you devote to flying online vs time spent on real life aviation? Also did you spend more on Computer upgrades then on airshows, flying lessons, kit aircraft or another aviation thing? Have you taken the time to go to Sun-n-Fun or to Kermit Weeks place?
Hmm....
I started building WWII and korean/vietnam warplane models around age of 6 ( I am 36 now ), I got into RC planes for a lil while in the early 80s, went into navy when I turned 17 ( thansk to parents for authorizing it) got my diploma early and became a Jet Mechanic, followed up for 2 years in A & P school/college after I got out of the Navy ( because I wanted to get married I would not stay in ) got into computers around 88/89 got into gaming around 92 single person type stuff, tryed my first hand at online late 94 some more in 95 then full time basically from 96 til today......I have not attended the other 2 places you have mentioned. But I have followed the CAF ( now comemorative airForce instead of the proper name ) I visited them at different places to see different planes in past 15 years, I have took a few beginners flight lessons ( all I could afford ) I probably have more time involving aviation in general than I do in Sim flying although Sim flying has had my most attention in last 6 or so years, due to fact of kids, divorce, work injurys, and real life crap like that......
If I had my way I would spend my money on things I desire to do or have, but my daughters are much more important, so I spend my money now on AH..
wanted to be a fighter pilot since I changed my mind around age 5 or 6 and decided I wanted to be a pilot verses an astronaut.......I got as far as low & high power turn qualified for testing engines after we had changed them out in the jets, never did get to fly one in real life, but got plenty of sim time in the navy...now those were sims:D
I once traveled to the mtns of Nc to check out a dang model of a P51D ( almost full scale and looked real to life from a distance) planted on the side of a mountian just so I knew it was fake and not a real bird being slowly decayed from neglect..hiked up side of mtn and everything...then I was astonished to find the detail someone had took to make a big almost scaled model of a P51D, and thought about how much that person loved this type of plane, most humbling experience....most would thought I was crazy for wasting my time, even I knew it wasn't real, I just wanted an up close view..........
oh well.......I am rambling my apologies
some places I have been,
Smithsonian in DC
Yorktown memorial
Mighty 8th Muesum i north of Savannah
Pennsacola
bunch of Naval Airstations ( not because I was navy, was to see the Static Displays )
prob 20+ or so different Air Shows
just to name some
ewe ewe...Parents took me to the Grave Yard out there in California ( think it was Ca.) to see all them old crap load of planes & Jets rotting away I was 11 years old
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No Apologees needed, I enjoyed your ramblings :)
I mentioned Sun-n-fun and Kermit Weeks Fantasy of Flight because both happen near you. Sun-n-Fun is like the Mini Oshkosh and kicks off the summer FlyIns. Its held each April in Lakeland FL. Fantasy of Flight is a great place to take the Kids, its in Polk City FL. Depending where you are in Jax, its 2-3 hour drive. I recommend Both. They are 2 of 3 best aviation sites in FL. Pensecola is the other, and Iv had the pleasure of visting each of them.
Ill ramble a moment as well, bear with me. In addition to the above.
Iv now spent about 15 weeks of my life at Oshkosh.
Iv been to USAF Muesum in Dayton 3 times.
Iv seen Pima Co AirMuseum and Graveyard at Davis-Mothan in Tucson 3 times.
The RAF Museum at Duxford (UK) including the 8th USAFF museum
THE RAF Museum at Hendon, The control bunker at Biggen Hill (special thanks to Spiffy and Vulch of the Kraits)
The Cavanaugh Flight Museum TX, The Champlin Flight Museum AZ, Planes of Fame MN, EAA Museum WI, Several other small ones around the country.
Iv had the pleasure of sitting in the pilot seat of, The Concorde, The F-117, SR71, The B-29 BocksCar, a C46, a B26, B17, B36 and many more.
Iv Flown in a Stinson Tri-motor, a Ford Trimotor, a Couple C-47s, A B-17, and few others. Iv taken the controls in a C45 and did some ACM in an AT-6 Texan.
Iv met General Yeager and Have a personalized and autographed picture sent to me by Yeagar and Tom Poberezny. I am friends with Amelia Earhart's Family and know several top airshow performers fairly well. there is a bunch of stuff and people Im forgeting as well.
Thats my Rambling for now...
Still, I figure Im more of a Gamer than Aviation Guy, but as you can see, I love both. I think we are more the exception than the rule. Isnt AH wonderful because we can merge both interests. :)
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I just read thru my post above and sometimes I am just baffled by how lucky Iv been to have had all the experiences I have had. I am not that deserving. :(
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You sure are lucky Grimm.....
as for Kermits and Sun-in-fun I hopefuly will attend them one day, I recently moved dwon to fla last June, I became injured last Oct at work, and have not worked since... I go into have a C6 Nerve block procedure done on my neck this coming Thursday provided Ivan stays away. my funds are bare minimal at best, losing nearly 2/3rds of my regular monthly salary since the injury, and being shafted out of a big sum of commission and sales bonuses...
one of these days, I will make it to a convention, and to other places I desire to see.......
then hopefully my dream will come true to where I can sell out and buy me a cabin and some land in Montana around Bozeman or Missoula and get back to the peaceful things in life like fishing, hunting and camping and try to leave all this World Wide Web stuff for everyone else to go piggybank broke on...hehe
( ya know the Ocean is right over -------> there and I have not been able to do any deep salt water fishing in nearly a dang year :-( )
as for being a Gamer, or a simmer, I think of myself just looking for the fight, I mean "the fight" to where it comes down to who is better skilled, no points, no gamey tactics a clean to honest 1 vs 1, heck 2 vs 1 ( me the 1) to where I use everything I have studied or learned or practiced to beat my opponent without so called cheap shots ( Head Ons or stuff ). To who can fly his plane the best in the fight, regardless if I am Co-E, disadvantaged E or with the advantage........ I search for these encounters.......dueling is ok, but dueling is preset arrangement.....it does not offer spur of the moment situations as the MA or CT does, or Scenarios.I love scenarios, and look forward to AH scenarios as they keep progressing each one the CM staff presents to us...so I guess I am a SiGaEnthusiaster
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Originally posted by FiLtH
WW2OL is a good example...a complete bakery, minus the oven.
LMFAO:rofl
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Originally posted by DoKGonZo
Well, as others have been pointing out lately, maybe the community just needs to be more demanding. And what scenario development showed me is that even the most blood-curdlingly inbred dweeb can be transformed into something resembling a decent pilot - given the right environment to do so. So there's hope, but change is needed at different levels.
So we have gamers arriving here and the only glory they can see is the "Megadweeb landed 5 kills in his La-7" messages ... and all the "wtg's" that come from it. What's the quickest way to get one of these? Vultch. In "the scores" they're just as good as someone who, like, shot down planes with their landing gear actually up, right?
So, just for the sake of argument, lets see what we can fix by messing with one little thing- the kills landed messages. Change them to: "A member of the XXX squadron just landed Y kills." Wow ... the only way to get that glory now is as a squad. While this will result in a lot of dweeb squads, at least now players are getting into a more structured environment.
Now, suppose that squad kill message then did a quick rifle through the stats and if the squad is in the top 10 in any category that's measured, the message has appended to it: "The squad now ranks 5th in kill/death ratio" ... or whatever stat they're best at in the top 10. Now players will start to compete as squadrons. Clans ... thats something gamers can get into, right? And if you limit the stats that get announced to those which can't be easily optimized with pork-based tactics, they will need to work for it.
Same deal when a base is captured - say which squadron got the troops in.
Then do one more thing on the kills landed message ... announce assists as well. People get so upset when they only get assists, but in the bigger picture the guy who lands 1 kill and 4 assists means some team-mates were able to land 4 kills and probably get home. I mean, they announce assists in hockey, right?
But ... make one ever-so-slight change to the way assists work. The assist can only come BEFORE the fatal shot was landed. This means that glomming onto a smoker in hopes of stealing the kill becomes a lot less profitable and the assist goes to the guy who took some risk setting up a kill for somone else.
So, a simple thing like changing the kill award messages could change a lot. And, by doing so we're teaching the gamers about how to achieve results through teamwork. Basically teach them that there's no "i" in "dweeb."
-DoK
Ya know Dok.I read your posts like I read a new Stephen King novel.Loving every line.Its obvious youve been around the community a long time.You have a clue.:aok
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Originally posted by DrDea
Ya know Dok.I read your posts like I read a new Stephen King novel.Loving every line.Its obvious youve been around the community a long time.You have a clue.:aok
Hmm...that reminds me. Any old AW types out there have a copy of Cent's "Tao of Dok"? I lost mine years ago and could use a good laff. :)
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You havnt lived till you have seen Dayton Ohio's Air Museum.I saw it at the AW Con in 2000.Went there with Hajo,Falc,Cdog and several others.Got lots of pix.We're still all friends and stay in touch and THAT my friends is community.It doesnt matter if your a gamer or a simmer.Its the community that makes it work and from what Ive seen lately,its more of a lack of respect more so than a fundimental diffrence is approches to the game.
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Originally posted by NoBaddy
Hmm...that reminds me. Any old AW types out there have a copy of Cent's "Tao of Dok"? I lost mine years ago and could use a good laff. :)
I lost mine during one of the times I moved in the last few years. Cent promised to get me a PDF version years ago but never did get it to me.
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Originally posted by NoBaddy
Hmm...that reminds me. Any old AW types out there have a copy of Cent's "Tao of Dok"? I lost mine years ago and could use a good laff. :)
I still have a copy. Packed away somewhere...have moved several times over the last couple years.
I'll see if I can dig it up.
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Originally posted by Crashy
I still have a copy. Packed away somewhere...have moved several times over the last couple years.
I'll see if I can dig it up.
Please drop me an email if you can find it.
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I agree with pretty much all but I have to comment about your point a.
What constant upgrading need is there for this game??
It's not like a new version of the graphics engine comes out every few months.
AHII was in beta for how long? About 8 months? That's plenty of time for people to save up $150-300 for an upgrade (if they didn't want to build/buy a new PC). Actually AHII was announced well before the beta came out, so people had plenty of time to upgrade.
I was actually hoping for even a better graphics engine, I feel I was cheated out of it because a lot of people refused to upgrade and HTC had to keep that in mind.
If someone has a situation that doesn't allow them to save money to do an upgrade in over a year in future then I really don't think they should be spending the 15/month to begin with.
Originally posted by airbumba
Gamer or Simmer
I watched a show on PBS the other night about the evolution of the video game, it was a good show, but it might have just answered a few lingering questions I’ve had about Aces High it’s community and the ever present ‘two camps’ syndrome which seems to prevail every topic raised. I do not and will not pretend for a second to speak about the community as a whole or even two majorities, it’s an individually based dynamic entity constantly evolving, and answers to it’s ailments will be just as fluid.
After seeing that show, I’ve come to the conclusion that the community is loosely split between gamers and simmers, as mentioned before on this BBS. I understand more about the ‘gamer’ after watching that show. Some observations, the gamer is always in charge, if not in control, of the situation. Most gamers play roles where they are not themselves, whether through ‘god’ type games, or ‘rpg’ games. The purpose of many ‘games’, is escape from reality, or fantasy, by immersing yourself in a world full of situations where you can act any way you wish, because you are not playing as yourself. In fact it would be impossible to act as yourself in many ‘rpg’s, since staying ‘in character’ is what it’s all about.
The simmer, ‘flight simmer’ in this case would rather be in control of the situation than in charge of the game. Simmers play as themselves, by this I don’t mean they put their Soc. Sec.# as their CPID, I mean they are playing as they, themselves, would handle the situation in RL. Control of the aircraft is before gaming the game. Simmers are less inclined to be the crowd rushing off to buy the biggest machines, because graphics were just an added bonus to the early Flight Simms, and they ran on miniscule machines.
What’s this got to do with anyone here, well a few things..
(a)when an old MS Flight Simmer like myself sees all the people shooting down folks who say they can’t afford upgrading, I get confused? We’re not ‘gamers’, for many of us, the only game we play is a flight sim, (that’s my case anyway) so constant upgrading is new to us. Again just a misunderstanding between two worlds, the gamer and simmer.
(b)When a person comes from the ‘rpg’ gaming world , where they’ve never played as themselves and therefore their only community involvement has been anonymous, they might feel as if they can get away with acting in a different manner, then they would in RL, as themselves. This would make it very difficult to form a sense of community.
(c)Finally I want to mention the aviation community. Firstly and foremost, that is the category most of us fit in. We all love airplanes. We wish we could swan about poking the clouds and buzzing the fields. Even for those of us who do fly in RL, we can’t do what we can in a simm. Ultimately the respect I hope returns to this community, can , and will only return when gamers and simmers alike aspire to show the aviation community the respect it deserves
So what to do?
Next time think before you speak.
I find it a bit odd that the same guy that has a touching saying in his signature showing respect for a WW2 pilot, turns around and spews vile trashtalk at another guy with a similar sig, in a game that is supposed to be a kind of testimonial to our lasting respect of all WW2 pilots.
Before you start ranting and flaming someone, think first, maybe that person just finished spending 50 hours on the making of that last scenario you enjoyed so much.
Be a good sport. Maybe that guy you just flamed for shooting you down was enjoying a quiet fun moment in an otherwise very difficult day. Don’t wait to find out the same guy has a sick kid in a hospital somewhere to say your sorry, don’t say it in the first place.
I'm not perfect, lol, by no means, I don't flame anyone , but I can ramble on range, or type to much, I'll fix that.
Well that’s about enough of your time, thanks for listening and I look forward to watching as the good folk in this community take it back.
CYA up there.
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"What constant upgrading need is there for this game??
It's not like a new version of the graphics engine comes out every few months.
AHII was in beta for how long? About 8 months? That's plenty of time for people to save up $150-300 for an upgrade (if they didn't want to build/buy a new PC). Actually AHII was announced well before the beta came out, so people had plenty of time to upgrade.
I was actually hoping for even a better graphics engine, I feel I was cheated out of it because a lot of people refused to upgrade and HTC had to keep that in mind.
If someone has a situation that doesn't allow them to save money to do an upgrade in over a year in future then I really don't think they should be spending the 15/month to begin with"
It's all part of computer gaming, no different than owning a quad or dirtbike. You buy upgrades to gain performance, gain an advantage or just make it look cool!
Saving a gobb of loot to spend on hardware for a computer game is no different, unfortunately if you were to ask the community what they got in return for spending $$$ on upgrades and new rigs the concensus is, a hair better than AH1.
"I was actually hoping for even a better graphics engine, I feel I was cheated out"
Me too :(
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Originally posted by Crashy
I still have a copy. Packed away somewhere...have moved several times over the last couple years.
I'll see if I can dig it up.
Email me too if you find it ... I really want to scan and OCR it in.
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In my hand is a copy of
"The Tao of Dok". Let me know how to get a copy to you!
LW
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Originally posted by DoKGonZo
I lost mine during one of the times I moved in the last few years. Cent promised to get me a PDF version years ago but never did get it to me.
I'll drop Cent a note and see if he has it handy.
-moggy
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Buy me a wine cooler at the con and I'll bring you a copy :>
LW
Originally posted by NoBaddy
Please drop me an email if you can find it.
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Originally posted by Lone Wolf
In my hand is a copy of
"The Tao of Dok". Let me know how to get a copy to you!
LW
Cool ... email me at diespammersdie@gonzoville.com and we'll go from there.
-DoK
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MOGGY!!! How yah been dood??
LW, bring it to the con. I will get a copy there. :)
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already got your copy run off....will have at the con for you
LW
Originally posted by NoBaddy
MOGGY!!! How yah been dood??
LW, bring it to the con. I will get a copy there. :)
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Moggy you really need to come to the con. We need an excuse to organize a SAR mission like we did in Indy a few years back....me, DD, Tex, and I vaguely remember at least one orther person...and seems there were multiple enema tangos around...lots of moving targets...and other distractions ;>
LW
QUOTE]Originally posted by AWmoggy
I'll drop Cent a note and see if he has it handy.
-moggy [/QUOTE]
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Thanks to Westy for digging up the PDF of The Tao. It's now posted on gonzoville.com where it belongs.
Lordy, I used to have fun on those message boards. Nothing like filet-o-dweeb.
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Originally posted by DoKGonZo
Thanks to Westy for digging up the PDF of The Tao. It's now posted on gonzoville.com where it belongs.
Lordy, I used to have fun on those message boards. Nothing like filet-o-dweeb.
Westy & Dok
Thanks to you both.
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Originally posted by jpeg
I agree with pretty much all but I have to comment about your point a.
What constant upgrading need is there for this game??
It's not like a new version of the graphics engine comes out every few months.
AHII was in beta for how long? About 8 months? That's plenty of time for people to save up $150-300 for an upgrade (if they didn't want to build/buy a new PC). Actually AHII was announced well before the beta came out, so people had plenty of time to upgrade.
I was actually hoping for even a better graphics engine, I feel I was cheated out of it because a lot of people refused to upgrade and HTC had to keep that in mind.
If someone has a situation that doesn't allow them to save money to do an upgrade in over a year in future then I really don't think they should be spending the 15/month to begin with.
I was just relating to the fact that a simm never needs upgrading to keep acting like a simm. I could still use MS Flight Simm on that old P90, and it'll still do all that it did then. If I use the simm truely as a simm, I just gotta change the dynamics of the simm and voila a new situaution. An example , take the 172 into gusty situations and try landing on runway 25 with winds from 300@ 40knts, no upgrade just a modification of the simm parameters. AH offline can be used like that, to some extent.
I'm just giving an extreme example here, of course if you want to 'play' a simm, upgrading will always be needed. I do also agree that the AH demands on machinery spread out since it's start is min. , next to other 'games'.
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Doh - I agree with Mars01! - Great thread, Airbumba, and interesting followup posts. I don't know how I missed this one at the time.
I'm interested to know what direction this game is going, especially in light of recent postings, and found this one by doing a search on "arcade" and "gameplay". (Found 66 posts, by the way)
Gamer v simmer indeed. One of the things that Grimm's posting about AirVenture (and how few people knew of it) reminded me of was the guy who introduced me to flight sims. He put his plane into a spin, and recovered from it using some technique unheard of in RL. When I pointed out that his method was not what I had been taught in RL (and had had to demonstrate to get my gliding ticket in the UK), the surprise was not that this guy didn't know, but that he wasn't even interested.
Oh well, it's an old thread now, with long posts, but I read all of it and I'm glad I did. All.
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I'd have to say there is some of both in all of us. Sliders get changed & reset on a graduall basis.
As for the online personality thing I think we make up our own rules as we go along. My online persona is virtually identical with who I am in real life. He's just a lot nicer, and has a lot more courage.
There have been times when I was flying through clouds watching the sun rise that the feeling of "being there" was absolutely perfect. Same again for some of the scenarios & squad ops I've seen. Big bomber boxes with high escorts, high 109s & 190's slashing through. Flak going off, as planes struggle to stay aloft in 20 + k of alt.
Man it was just like some of those paintings you see. Only it was happening! And I was a Part of it!
Then there is the main, chessboard pieces, land grab, horde, vulch, cuss,
crushed ego's & all.
Why is it people forget that in a flight sim/game EVERYONE dies?
That even if your flying the best that you've ever flown, you can be ambushed by a group you didn't see coming. Or get hit by a lucky snap shot.
Yes its frustrating, if ONLY I'd been able to ..............
Anyway I wander.
Good thread!
Rock on HTC!
PS I've been to OshKosh. It was TOO frickin big, too damm crowded, too hot, too noisy and WAY too dawgone exciting.
Seeing acres of warbirds all neatly lined up by type. Hundreds of thousands of light aircraft crammed everywhere imaginable. Well it was a trip, and I agree everyone into aviation needs to go.
Daddog, Ozark, Dhog. Those were shinin times.
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Grimm, Did ya know that Rockford had the chance to become the home of the eaa fly-in? But they blew it and Oshkosh became the home for it. I,ve been to fun&sun. Had a blast.If you ever get the chance check out Flying Tigers in Kissimmee. Last time I was there they were restoring a B-17, F4u, & a 190a5. Right next door you can fly a T-6 , which I did.What a blast. Also I have a bother that works for the rotary air force that works all the eaa fly-ins.
Panman
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Great Post, Airbumba
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Originally posted by Grimm
I will try to explain myself better and not quite as cripticly.
The Meca of Aviation if you will is AirVenture at Oshkosh. The fact that I was asked even backs up what I believe. It is the largest event of its type in the world, featuring thousands of aircraft and nearly a million visitors each year. Its a week long event. Anyone that flys, wants to fly, builds, researches aircraft all know and most dream of attending.
Iv often wondered wondered why AH has never reached out to this huge opertunity to be exposed to so many potential customers. Many other Sims do. Perhaps its because AH pilots mostly come from Computer guys, not aviation guys.
I would guess most AH Pilots are CyberPilots first, Aviation enthusists second if at all. Nothing wrong with that.
So, As we debate weather guys are Simmers or Gamers, AB said they were all Aviation Fans. I propose that majority are really Simmers and Gamers first and formost. They spend hours and hours honing skills and learning their cybercraft. I would bet that spend much less time doing actual aviation things. Doing what you enjoy is important.
I like to think I fit somewhere in between but I probably am more a computer guy than not. I get airborn whenever possible, Iv been to most of the major A/C sites around the country a few overseas, and Oshkosh is a must each year. Yet I also Fly AH whenever I get some free time and enjoy it alot.
To conclude, AH pilots are Gamers and Simmers. Some are Aviation fans.
I too did not understand your "mecca of airshows" comment. Because for me the "mecca" is the Paris air show. Not Oshgosh. Maybe as Wisconsiner it becomes obvious that EAA has the biggest and best (former Kenosha guy here). It's arguable. I've gone to Oshgosh for years (since 1971 to give my approximate age away). I am absolutley NOT a computer guy. Flying is a gift from God himself. I found out about this sim/game/fascination because I was interested in WW2 aircraft and found this site a year ago. I also like it because I cannot loop my B-26 in real life. When I first came here I thoiught I'd find more pilots or student pilots then I did. I was actually surprised to find this not to be the case. Anyway it's still fun.
Peace
Pillur
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quote:Originally posted by Westy
...
1) ...want to feel like they are in WWII. And act like a pilot.
2) ...want to learn all about ACM and the best way to fight aircraft.
3) ...want to win the war (fight).
...
Ya forgot 4) Will do any and everything to win at any cost. This is the "Gamer Lamer" type.They rant on open channels when they get killed asking how anyone could be better than them bla bla bla.You know the type.This type does more damage to the community than anything.Its the up and coming me me me me me me me Quake mentality thats taking over.
Simmers still have a somewhat good game,but the gamers are turning it into a nintendo.
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Am I a gamer? Am I a simmer? Is that so important? The claim made by the PBS show has Gamers wanting to control the game and Simmers their environment. My experience has been that players want to control the way I play. Maybe because they don't control the game but they subconsciously want to?
It is the spirit of the game that matters (to me). Is the real goal to hoard and gang with cannons and supper killer bombers to take land? Or is the goal to allow players to fly aircraft that meets their expectations of realism? The inclusion of a GV world fits more in the former category, not to disapprove of anyone who GV's. There are some who really want a tank battle.
I have floated in and out of AH over the years because of the land grab, anything goes, f**k you even if your
helping, community spirit! If your not playing the game *my* way then you are a dweeb and I hate you. That's not
so appealing to me.
Why do I come back? AH has the best WW2 type aircraft flight model realism I have found. Also, and I am working on this... I think it might be an addiction. Yet another topic for a PBS special.
Am I a gamer? Yes, afterall I play the game. Am I a simmer? I like to be when I can. First and foremost I prefer to play the role of a fighter pilot, which of course I am not in RL.
In my opinion, and I might get banned or most probably trashed for saying this, the AH team seems to have had some involvement with AW in the past. However, they are still bitter about the experience. The words "In AW" seems to automatically discount any ideas for use in AH. Which is a pity because AH could become the best flight simulator ever. I still consider AW the pinnacle of online ww2 flight simulation games.
Regards,
Malta
(aka -LZ, Ledz, Malta1)
"What does not destroy me makes me stronger. Prussian Military Axiom", Shaw pp. 331
"In air fights it is absolutely essential to fly in such a way that your adversary cannot shoot at you, if you can
manage it. Captain Oswald Boelcke, German Air Service", Shaw pp. 333
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Simmer down, gamers. And thus the ancient debate continues. Twas such that caused Rome to fall. Bread and circus clowns.
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I personaly concider Air Warrior the pinnacle of online ww2 fighter sim community.Damn but that game had great community.How can we get that here or is it a hopeless task?
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Simmers have been to at least one air show. Otherwise they are wanna-b-simmers.
We got this all wrong, you need to perk the most difficult planes like the 109-f4 or 202. Then when someone shows up you know he has the perks and the eggs to fly it.
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Originally posted by DrDea
I personaly concider Air Warrior the pinnacle of online ww2 fighter sim community.Damn but that game had great community.How can we get that here or is it a hopeless task?
I think alot of people miss the real problem in this whole gamer/simmer debate. Its not a LACK of community, its different ideas on what that community is, and should be. We dont get a lot of the hardcore FPS gamers. Not that some of us here dont like to play them, but the hardcore guys are very much solo artists. They work together when they have to, but once the truce is up its every man for himself again. The "gamers" we see more here are the RPG type. And yes I include myself in that group, as much as I do a simmer. RPG gamers (the video game RPG gamers anyway) DO share one trait with other gamers. The willingness to hack, steal, cheat and do whatever else is necessary to rack up the score or get to the final level and "beat the bad guy". In AH, that means do what it takes to kill as many people as you can without being killed yourself. Whatever it takes.
Ever since the late 70s and early 80s playing Dungeons and Dragons around a buddy's dining room table after his parents went to bed on the weekends, I've been addicted to RPGs. I still participate today in a more modern version of RPG, not just the video game types but also a regular group that meets every week and still plays D&D (although with computers now, that roll your dice for you and keep track of your stats and do all the math and rule-work).
Ever since the late 80s, since I was first introduced to MS FS on a clone PC with 640k of RAM, a 20 MB HD and a 5.25" floppy, I've been addicted to sims. As a little boy I had pictures cut out of magazines on my wall of P-51 Mustangs and F-4 Phantoms, posters of F-15 Eagles and F-86 Sabres. I can remember the first time I saw a picture of an F/A-18 Hornet and thought it was the most beautiful thing I'd ever seen, or the first time I saw an A-10 Warthog and thought it was the meanest thing I'd ever seen. All I ever wanted was to fly a fighter. Anway, didnt happen, but the passion to fly has always been there. All I can afford to indulge is sims and (when I'm back home) the occasional trip up in an ultralight.
The one thing I see that unites both groups (or even all three groups really, since I split "gamers" into two groups), is IMAGINATION. We all like to imagine we are somebody else sometimes, and even though simmers are more into immersing themselves, as themselves, into a flight, there still is required a certain amount of imagination to make a PC sim feel real. I mean come on, theres no pressure on the stick (even FF isnt really REAL feeling), you cant feel the G forces in the turns, blackouts are an annoyance and not something that scares the pee out of you, there's a STALL HORN to tell you that "hey stupid, you are about to stall your plane out!", and while you may be able to hear the wind whistling past or the wings groaning in protest, can you feel it? Can you smell the oil? The gas? Do you feel the vibration off just a bit and cuss yourself for rushing when you gapped the spark plugs when you checked them, and swear to yourself PLEASE just let it be ok this time and I SWEAR I'll do it right from now on.........
No.
I think what we really need are 3 things. Ive said it before.
1. We need a way to really push the TA with new people, and get them an introduction that includes more than how to start the plane and get in the air, and start pulling a trigger. They get that and so much more from trainers. If they just pop in for a few seconds, dont see anyone or any easy way to get a trainer's assistance (meaning, there's no one there) they go to the MA and ask questions. The learning curve gets longer, and they get frustrated in the process. And they learn to despise newb's. Because thats how they were treated (not all, but enough).
2. We need to push scenarios, and other events in the SEA. Whether its KOTH, snapshots, scenarios, squad nights .......... whatever. We need events that bring people together who normally would only encounter each other as "so and so shot you down", or "you shot down so and so". Dok has expressed an interest in getting folks together who believe in scenarios to bring back a sense of community. I dont think we've lost it, I just think it lacks focus. That can change easier than inventing one.
3. Too many of us who remember what AW was like, or Warbirds, or whatever else, spend too much time griping AH isnt like that. We are the ones that should be setting the example. While TC may not be able to jog his memory enough to remember me (yet), I remember enough of flying with the great guys (and lady, cant leave out LadyAce) of the Eagles, and by extension the AWTC. The way they treated me, taught me, was no different than they did for everybody they came into contact with who had a desire to learn, even a few of us that came with a chip on the shoulder or felt like we had something to prove. What I took from them was that, as much as I like remembering what it was like to fly with them (and later against them even), keeping those lessons alive in how I treat people does far more good. WE have to be the ones that enforce a community. Well, thats a bad way to put it. You cant force people to behave a certain way. But we can encourage. Rules are mostly unwritten, and should stay that way. Rules only tell us what we CANT do, and if we have to have every tiny detail of what we aren't allowed to do spelled out, we are a pretty sad bunch.
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It's a Game with different mentalities playing.
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This is like looking for Andy Taylor and Barney Fife's Mayberry. When AW started, there was no internet. Due to access and financial concerns, AW was very limited (the arena limit was 32 in 1990). Now that was a great community. As AW expanded...the community grew also. When AW went mainstream (to AOL and Compuserve), the community became more fragmented and, IMO, the game play suffered.
Unfortunately, the only way to have a successful OLG these days is to continually bring in new customers. The constant influx of new bodies insures that a community will suffer.
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Originally posted by NoBaddy
The constant influx of new bodies insures that a community will suffer.
Piffle. The community doesn't suffer. Individuals may. And that all hinges on one's own expectations. If anyone here expects the Aces High community to be the same as Kelton and friends nearly 20 years ago .... that ain't too realistic.
That being said let's look into the diversity you refer to. The community is indeed going to be as diverse as every single member in it ... good or bad. Numbers? Pfffft. Numbers ain't the problem. Leadership is. Yup, you got that right. Numbers ... if anything .... ensure more stability across the board. Ask any quality control inspector that.
The old vets here represent the solution .... and the problem. Set an example and live by it. Don't worry so much what the other guys does. Those that are impressed by you will undoubtedly follow the example. Those that ain't either got a reason not to be or they don't. If they got a reason not to be then the "fine example" you're setting .... probably ain't. If they don't ... examples don't mean anything to them, anyhow. Chances are they've been more impressed with themselves than they have with anyone else for a long long time.
Now ... as far as the game's concerned ... much of the stuff old vets are complaining about are just part of it. Part of it by design. Head ons? We got collisions modeled now. BFD. Porking? Yup ... the bombs blow up stuff on the ground and it has a negative impact to the owners of the real estate. Gangs? Go figure .... we can fly as a group. Those that prefer to fly solo must be either damned good or fools. Spray and pray? What ... ammo don't run out no more?
Oh wait ... the talk. The open channel banter. Yeah ... it's really a shame we can't tune it out or squelch people. Oh ... wait ....
So .... if the bottom two percent of the barrel seems to present a problem to ya ... just remember this:
There will always be a bottom 2 percent. Don't matter if the game supports 20 (round the 2% up to 1) or 2 million. And there ain't no need to fret over it. Truth be told ... the more customers HT has, the better chance we'll have of seeing this game thrive ... and improve. Don't get all maudlin and long for the days of old when 9600 baud was a dream and a moving pixel was a wonder.
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Lol, I remember 900,1200, 2400 baud and I thought I was hot**** on my neighborhood block when I got my 9600 modem...........
I'm not as long in the tooth as NB, but 10,15 years ago you can honestly say the mentality of the individual player was to a higher degree.........from then to now is like a difference in Day and Night.........
I am here because I have fun, like NB says all the time!
and I will always help anyone who ask, sometimes offer when they don't ask.......
times will always keep changing but like the saying goes, is hard to teach an old dog new tricks..........
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Originally posted by TequilaChaser
times will always keep changing but like the saying goes, is hard to teach an old dog new tricks..........
Don't waste your time on the old ones, then. :D
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Originally posted by Arlo
Don't waste your time on the old ones, then. :D
but where or how do you think the new pups will learn? got to have the old ones to lead the new ones ;)
that old dog can often show the new pup a thing or two..........
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Maudlin? Hardly. Do I miss the days when I could log into the game I played and know well over half of the people on at that time? Sure. But, I'm also realistic enough to understand that without growth, the game will die.
As for your "piffle"...take any real world example of a communtity you chose and increase the population by 300 to 500% and see if the "sense of community" doesn't suffer. Hence, my "looking for Mayberry" analogy. My point is that the AW community was based in on a "small town" mentality. By the time the game went mainstream, it was too large for the community to absorb all of the new people and maintain the character that made it special.
As for the leadership stuff...been there, done that. I agree that leadership can have an impact. However, my previous experience leads me to believe that just being one of the Indians is better for me...personally. Which is why you don't see me whining about "community" in the BBs.
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Originally posted by TequilaChaser
but where or how do you think the new pups will learn? got to have the old ones to lead the new ones ;)
that old dog can often show the new pup a thing or two..........
Are we not talking about the same thing here? Huh? HUH? :D
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Originally posted by NoBaddy
Maudlin? Hardly. Do I miss the days when I could log into the game I played and know well over half of the people on at that time? Sure. But, I'm also realistic enough to understand that without growth, the game will die.
As for your "piffle"...take any real world example of a communtity you chose and increase the population by 300 to 500% and see if the "sense of community" doesn't suffer. Hence, my "looking for Mayberry" analogy. My point is that the AW community was based in on a "small town" mentality. By the time the game went mainstream, it was too large for the community to absorb all of the new people and maintain the character that made it special.
As for the leadership stuff...been there, done that. I agree that leadership can have an impact. However, my previous experience leads me to believe that just being one of the Indians is better for me...personally. Which is why you don't see me whining about "community" in the BBs.
Mayberry lives. But the community now also has Mount Pilot. It also has New York , Chicago, Chatanooga, Baton Rouge. Add in London, Tokyo, Moscow, Sydney ......
What I'm sayin' is ... this community is made up of several smaller ones now. And they share similarities ... and differences. And some of those differences just ain't gonna be overcome.
Talkin' to someone about how nice the good ol days were when all there was were 3 bases, no bombers, no collisions and 9600 baud was more than enough because the whole ruttin world wasn't on the internet yet may get as much a positive response as typing esperanto will. They just ain't gonna get it .... nor care if they did.
Same can be said the other way around. Talking to some of the old crew about why they need to get over things changing, especially when there's so much more neat stuff to do and nicer toys to play with ... generally will invoke a response of "you wet-behind-the-ears noob twit."
Hehe.
That's why leadership is action more than words.
Now ... ifluff'n we don't care to set the example none.... that's fine too. Especially since there'll probably be hundreds of different examples bein' set by old dogs who feel strongly ... but see things differently.
`Course, you pretty well much just said that. :)
It's a game. It has a rather interesting pedigree. And some really interesting people and traditions. And it's got a future.
Cool. :D
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Originally posted by NoBaddy
This is like looking for Andy Taylor and Barney Fife's Mayberry. When AW started, there was no internet. Due to access and financial concerns, AW was very limited (the arena limit was 32 in 1990). Now that was a great community. As AW expanded...the community grew also. When AW went mainstream (to AOL and Compuserve), the community became more fragmented and, IMO, the game play suffered.
Unfortunately, the only way to have a successful OLG these days is to continually bring in new customers. The constant influx of new bodies insures that a community will suffer.
I agree. The last line sums it up. As Arlo says in a later post, the small Mayberry is now a larger community made up from a bunch of small ones, here i'll use your "piffle" Arlo.
Ever try and tenfold a recipe? Always seems to not duplicate the original, something is lost in the math. You are correct, but if we take the respect for fellow citizens that our small 'Mayberry' has , and throw together 25 Mayberry's, we end up with a New York, with a more individualistic each their own community ,and not a burrough of Mayberry's.
Maybe it's the crowd mentality? Maybe it's the way the world is turning? Whatever it is, even since I've been here, only 3 years, I've seen respect decline as numbers increased. I just hope that trend doesn't continue.
cya up there gents .
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Piffle. I've seen Andy and Barney and Floyd the barber online. We still laugh and joke about the old days. ;)
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Originally posted by Panman
Grimm, Did ya know that Rockford had the chance to become the home of the eaa fly-in? But they blew it and Oshkosh became the home for it. I,ve been to fun&sun. Had a blast.If you ever get the chance check out Flying Tigers in Kissimmee. Last time I was there they were restoring a B-17, F4u, & a 190a5. Right next door you can fly a T-6 , which I did.What a blast. Also I have a bother that works for the rotary air force that works all the eaa fly-ins.
Panman
Fun & Sun is a Great Show, Its much more personal than Oshkosh, Iv only had the privledge to attend once.
I did go out to Tom Rielys join in Kissimmee. What a Great Place! Its the only place if you walk out back you might find a P38 cockpit layin in the grass with weeds growing around it.
Also did the Warbirds Adventure SNJ Flight, That was so fun. The funny thing is on the Video from the flight, was anytime I was holding the joystick, I had my trigger finger extended. LOL Habit from Flight Sims.
Yeah, its lucky for Oshkosh that they decided to move up to Steve Whimans home feild all those years ago. :)
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Originally posted by LtPillur
I too did not understand your "mecca of airshows" comment. Because for me the "mecca" is the Paris air show. Not Oshgosh. Maybe as Wisconsiner it becomes obvious that EAA has the biggest and best (former Kenosha guy here). It's arguable. I've gone to Oshgosh for years (since 1971 to give my approximate age away). I am absolutley NOT a computer guy. Flying is a gift from God himself. I found out about this sim/game/fascination because I was interested in WW2 aircraft and found this site a year ago. I also like it because I cannot loop my B-26 in real life. When I first came here I thoiught I'd find more pilots or student pilots then I did. I was actually surprised to find this not to be the case. Anyway it's still fun.
Peace
Pillur
I would have to agree, the other place one might consider the Mecca of Aviation as Paris. Definately the two biggest events I can think of. I tend to think of Paris as the display case of all the new military hardware and new commerical planes. I think of Oshkosh as the best place to see the Warbirds we all love. :)
Pillur Im glad you found this place that lets you express your love for Aviation and Warbirds. Not everyone here is a gamer, but I still believe most here are Gamers (with a little aviation interest) not hard core aviation people.
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Just a quick comment relating to the sub discussion on community. Its one of those deals where both, NB and Arlo, are right. Both examples hold true and the truth is a bit of both.
What I see is the new customers are less deticated overall. No not every single one, its a broad brush. Back in the day of (I started with 300bd) old, anyone online was diehard.
When AW was small, Everyone was paying hourly rates, and to spend that money you really had to be into it.
Today we have people that can afford to more causal in their approach, Nothing wrong than that its just different.
Have you noticed that attendace at CONs is down, Scenario participation is down. The Average player just isnt as obsesive as those from the days of Gods and Legends.
Well at least thats my take on it.
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Originally posted by Chitownflyer
I love hunting live meat... in this case rooks... They’re like baby seals... big dark wet eyes, cute white fur and
the fact that they scream and whine when getting whacked with my very vintage, well oiled seal whacking bat.
I love seeing a rook plane lit up like Sox park and feeling their pain as hopes of his returning fade with every bullet hole in the windshield.
And when the rook is tumbling, in flames and trashing his keyboard out of blind hate, and yelling so loud that I can hear though the either of the Internet, THAT GD DWEEB CHI
My heart soar, like a winged eagle and feel the warm satisfaction that I killed a rook ego and ruined his KD...
Chi
Tour 57:
Kills of Rooks: 155 Killed by Rooks 161.
Sounds like you're breaking even with the baby seals, CHI :lol
A bit better this month, so far. Still room for improvement before calling us baby seals ;).
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Originally posted by XrightyX
Tour 57:
Kills of Rooks: 155 Killed by Rooks 161.
Sounds like you're breaking even with the baby seals, CHI :lol
A bit better this month, so far. Still room for improvement before calling us baby seals ;).
ROFL! You are as bad as me, Righty! My experience is that guys who crow without substance will fight like an upset fish on the end of a line when confronted with the facts. :lol
:aok