Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: SaburoS on September 10, 2004, 03:36:22 AM
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Originally posted by Silat
And I will remind you that 9/11 happened on GWB's watch.
Ohoh, here we go again....
9/11 would have happened no matter what. No matter whether it was a Republican or Democrat Administration in power.
We were just not prepared (regardless of the intel budget) as we had never had any attack of this type before. No history to learn from. Of the thousands of threats, we just didn't have the budget and manpower to investigate every threat. We still don't.
I think everyone here knows that I am not a big fan of our present president (I'm not a fan of Kerry's either, I just don't trust many politicians), but to blame him for this attack is well, BS.
Go back to the time before 9/11. Think of the mindset of all of us from the President on down. There are scattered reports that there might be some hijackings of our jetliners into some of our buildings (among the thousands of other reports of other possible events). They'll be using nothing but boxcutters (utility knives) and fake bombs. Can you imagine the uproar of everyone if we actually acted on those threats?
"How dare they strip search me!!"
"How dare they make me wait! I have to show up extra early to check in??"
"How dare they take away my nail clippers!!"
Etc., etc.
9/11 would not of happened as those 9/11 terrorists would not have made it through the extra scrutiny.
We would think that there was no actual threat.
Instead of showing our gratitude to the Bush administration, we'd be voting in someone else because of the "terrible hardships" imposed on us for airtravel.
Amazing that it takes a terrible terrorist attack to happen for us to accept what is possible. Hindsight is 20/20 and history is a great teaching tool.
Edit***
Now, any administration will look into these types as well as related threats very seriously indeed. The American public won't be so fickle about it because of the 9/11 attacks.
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Originally posted by SaburoS
The American public won't be so fickle about it because of the 9/11 attacks.
Until time goes by, noting big happends and we forget. Just look at the grumblings by opposition politicans when when the admin releses a threat alert..
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Yeah Grun, I hear you.
Trust is earned. We weren't too honest about our intentions of Iraq. Our intelligence services have a duty to present to our leaders the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. Without that, how in the world can our leaders lead effectively?
How can we trust our Intelligence services? How can we monitor our Intelligence services without compromising the intel?
Having said that, this and future administrations are in a no win situation. Damned if you do, damned if you don't.
Personally, I'd rather err on the safe side.
When our Intellegence services are doing their job, we shouldn't have major attacks. Then we'd scream "False Alarms!!!"
If a major attack does happen, we'd scream "You failed us!!!"
No win situation.
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I certainly agree with you, but don't forget that some politicians could use the insecurity feeling (by proclaiming a higher than reasonable threat level) to support their own agenda, just like others would lower it to help people feel artificially secure and comfortable. Of course, without hindsight it is impossible to be exactly right. As long as they are honest with the intel they have, they can't be blamed IMO.
But I can't defend myself to think that your administration did it on purpose to justify the war in Iraq.
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Originally posted by SaburoS
Ohoh, here we go again....
9/11 would have happened no matter what. No matter whether it was a Republican or Democrat Administration in power.
We were just not prepared (regardless of the intel budget) as we had never had any attack of this type before. No history to learn from. Of the thousands of threats, we just didn't have the budget and manpower to investigate every threat. We still don't.
I think everyone here knows that I am not a big fan of our present president (I'm not a fan of Kerry's either, I just don't trust many politicians), but to blame him for this attack is well, BS.
Go back to the time before 9/11. Think of the mindset of all of us from the President on down. There are scattered reports that there might be some hijackings of our jetliners into some of our buildings (among the thousands of other reports of other possible events). They'll be using nothing but boxcutters (utility knives) and fake bombs. Can you imagine the uproar of everyone if we actually acted on those threats?
"How dare they strip search me!!"
"How dare they make me wait! I have to show up extra early to check in??"
"How dare they take away my nail clippers!!"
Etc., etc.
9/11 would not of happened as those 9/11 terrorists would not have made it through the extra scrutiny.
We would think that there was no actual threat.
Instead of showing our gratitude to the Bush administration, we'd be voting in someone else because of the "terrible hardships" imposed on us for airtravel.
Amazing that it takes a terrible terrorist attack to happen for us to accept what is possible. Hindsight is 20/20 and history is a great teaching tool.
Edit***
Now, any administration will look into these types as well as related threats very seriously indeed. The American public won't be so fickle about it because of the 9/11 attacks.
why do you waste your time? there are people reading and "writing" here that will argue that the sky is blue. if a two year old refuses to believe that theres nitrogen in the air we breathe it is pointless to try and educate or have a discussion with them on subject if they get their mind set that they are "right". the tenth time i pointed out the difference between awol and someone wondering where someone was for a weekend or two in the guard was when i "got it". youve obviously "been here" longer than me you should "get it" by now. wasting even fifteen minutes of your free time on four or six aholes in this little corner of the world who exist to argue without recognizing facts is stupid.
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to blame Bush for 911 is as destperate as running on your war record and his.
Let kerrie run on his political voting record.
lazs
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Originally posted by anonymous
why do you waste your time? there are people reading and "writing" here that will argue that the sky is blue.
No there aren't...
(http://images.quizilla.com/1033609371_-clinic-07.jpg)
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Humm. Lets see.. Was it the Aug. 6? PDB memo that stated in bold type at the top:
BinLaden determined to attack inside the U.S.
And after that all sorts of worthless intel such as possible terrorist to hijack airliners; possible terrorist receiving flight training inside the US. Worthless intel! It lacked anything about Iraqi so it was shoved to the side.
Who was held accountable for 9/11?? Oh, no one? The deadliest attack ever on America's soil and who was held accountable? What is that you say?? NO one?? right. right...
Who was held accountable after PH?? There are very strong arguments the wrong person was, but someone still was held accountable!
So lets sum up folks.. PDB on the presidents desk stating future events. Our president does absolutly NOTHING about possibly the best intel he has received yet to date. 3000 dead american civilians. Not one person in the american government is held responsible. At least we got that OBL guy.. O wait.. DAMN!!!!! Well, at least we got that dirty rotten soul of a man SH that helped plot and plan the 9/11 attacks.. O wait!! DAMN!!!!!!!!
More summary? 3000 dead from the WTC. 1000 plus dead American fighting men (how many have died in Afghanistan). 7000-8000 wounded (how many missing body parts?) military persons. 1000s upon 1000s of dead/wounded non-militant Iraqis. Probably 1000s wounded/dead non-militant Afghans. This president's 4 year term is ending with a net loss of Jobs in America, first time since when? This president has divided America from the rest of the world. This president has divided America. This president fights a war of choice, not a war of necessity (having not done so himself)..
Is America better off now than it was 4 years ago? Are we more finacialy stable? Are we more united as a country? Is the world more or less hostile to America than 4 years ago? Does America have more people to work than 4 years ago? Is the middle class larger or smaller than it was 4 years ago? How about the tax burden on the middle class, more or less? Wow, why go on?? None of this means anything to the average Bush supporter on this board.
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growth rate at 3.9 % 170,000 new payroll jobs created last month... yeah.. I's say we were better off.
stupid guns bans expire... anti guin nuts are afraid to prupose new ones... lawyers can't sue gun manufacturers out of existance for making a well made product that works perfectly...
Yeah, I's say we are better off.
lazs
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Originally posted by TheDudeDVant
Humm. Lets see.. Was it the October 6? PDB memo that stated in bold type at the top:
BinLaden determined to attack inside the U.S.
You call that the best intel?
(http://www.sportscharms.net/images/Maps/usa%20map.gif)
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Originally posted by lazs2
growth rate at 3.9 % 170,000 new payroll jobs created last month... yeah.. I's say we were better off.
stupid guns bans expire... anti guin nuts are afraid to prupose new ones... lawyers can't sue gun manufacturers out of existance for making a well made product that works perfectly...
Yeah, I's say we are better off.
lazs
Ya lazs?? Do more searching on your source and find the average pay of those jobs.. Average is less than $9/hour..
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
You call that the best intel?
(http://www.sportscharms.net/images/Maps/usa%20map.gif)
Hey grun... What did Bush do after he got that memo?
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Originally posted by TheDudeDVant
Hey grun... What did Bush do after he got that memo?
You worked in the White House? You know FOR SURE he didn't at least try to do something? What could he have done? At the time the state of out intel communinty was and still is very poor..You get a vauge memo saying someone is determined to attack..That doesn't tell you when where or how...how can you defend against an attack you have no knowlege about other than someone is DETERMINED to carry it our..didn't even say it was eminent...I'm determined to win the lottery..doesn't mean it will happen.
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So those jobs don't count?
Sorry but for a person out of a job who WANTS to work I think they will take the job.
The only people who are complaining are the Liberals who think they deserve more of a hand out.
As for me my life is real good right now so why would I want to change?
Oh by the way if you truly think Bush is responsible for 911 then maybe you need to go back on the meds.
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Originally posted by ASTAC
You worked in the White House? You know FOR SURE he didn't at least try to do something? What could he have done? At the time the state of out intel communinty was and still is very poor..You get a vauge memo saying someone is determined to attack..That doesn't tell you when where or how...how can you defend against an attack you have no knowlege about other than someone is DETERMINED to carry it our..didn't even say it was eminent...I'm determined to win the lottery..doesn't mean it will happen.
lmao!! Tell me that was not your best? Try again.. :rofl
We went to WAR with that same intel community!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :mad:
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Originally posted by TheDudeDVant
lmao!! Tell me that was not your best? Try again.. :rofl
We went to WAR with that same intel community!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
So what would you have done? Obviuosly you have some sort of hindsight plan, or you wouldn't be attacking him for doing "nothing".
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Is America better off now than it was 4 years ago?
"I am"
Are we more finacialy stable?
"I am"
Are we more united as a country?
"same as 4 years ago wouldn't you say...about 50/50"
Is the world more or less hostile to America than 4 years ago?
4 years ago during clinton admin a terrorist attack was being plotted on the US, it happened. Now I dont blame clinton nor bush, it was a tragedy and I believe going on offense for once itstead of sitting back is the right thing to do.
Does America have more people to work than 4 years ago?
"I am doing fine"
Is the middle class larger or smaller than it was 4 years ago?
"I am doing fine"
How about the tax burden on the middle class, more or less?
"I am middle class" also i believe in a flat tax so even more of the total tax burden would fall on the middle class, it doesnt mean more comes out of your checks, just means of the total tax revenue middle class pay more simple statistics.
Voting and life comes down to the individual, not what your neighbor is doing. So with my answers above how would you vote.
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Originally posted by TheDudeDVant
Hey grun... What did Bush do after he got that memo?
LOL that reminds me 'Office Space':
"Yeah, haven't you read the memo??"
Bush prolly stapled it with his red Swingline and filed it while mumbling and listnening to the radio commercials...
(http://www.virtualstapler.com/office_space/images/milton_grab_1.jpg)
BOOSH IS MILTON!!!!111
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Originally posted by ASTAC
So what would you have done? Obviuosly you have some sort of hindsight plan, or you wouldn't be attacking him for doing "nothing".
Makes no difference what I think or would do or have done. What does matter is what our POTUS did which is exactly what you said.. Nothing.....
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"Bin Laden Detrmined To attack In US"
Great info with a few problems..
Where in US?
Which city?
Which state?
How?
When?
Who are the operators?
What is the specific type of target?
What type of weapons?
Gee Kappa... Maybe lock down the whole country all based on an obvious and imprecise message..
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
"Bin Laden Detrmined To attack In US"
Great info with a few problems..
Where in US?
Which city?
Which state?
How?
When?
Who are the operators?
What is the specific type of target?
What type of weapons?
Gee Kappa... Maybe lock down the whole country all based on an obvious and imprecise message..
Imprecise message? Grun, that message was VERY precise. What in that message did not happen that would make it 'imprecise'??
I suppose he could have closed the country, but Grun, what did he do after recieving that VERY precise memo??
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This just in:
Bin Laden is determined to attack the US, soon!
Now that you have that information, WTF you gonna do?
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
"Bin Laden Detrmined To attack In US"
Great info with a few problems..
Where in US?
Which city?
Which state?
How?
When?
Who are the operators?
What is the specific type of target?
What type of weapons?
Gee Kappa... Maybe lock down the whole country all based on an obvious and imprecise message..
Exactly...seeing how we have had never had a terrorist attack so large, the American people would not have put up with some sort of preemptive action..no one would have understood the importance of it and would have really started whining...It wasn't our policy at the time to freak-out average Americans based of extremely vauge intel. So you think we should have turned this into a police state prior to the attacks? That is the only way we could have kept it from happening.
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Originally posted by Lizking
This just in:
Bin Laden is determined to attack the US, soon!
Now that you have that information, WTF you gonna do?
that is the situation now..it's been on the news...have we done anything different...NO..what can you do unitl you get more info?
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Originally posted by TheDudeDVant
Imprecise message? Grun, that message was VERY precise. What in that message did not happen that would make it 'imprecise'??
This is what Kappa calls precise:
(http://www.sportscharms.net/images/Maps/usa%20map.gif)
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OK Bin Laden to attack US using airplanes.
What date?
What will be hit?
will it be a domestic flight or international? Of the thousands that take off and land every day.
with it be a private aircraft?
People get fed up now when we have terrorist threats and the threat level goes up and this is after the attack.
And if the memo was on Oct 6 or whatever you said wouldn't it be after the attack or a year before when Bush wasn't the POTUS.
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Also Kappa whats all this Bush didnt do enough about 911?
You are guy who claimed that 911 was a CIA/Bush conspiracy and that the buildings were rigged with explosives, and that the pentagon was hit by a cruise missle.
And now you rave that not enough attention was paid to bin laden..
GIVE ME A FIN BREAK...
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Excuses Excuses Excuses......
What did our President do UPON receiving the Oct. 6 PDB memo???????????
You guys are so quick to protect him. Have I said once he could have stopped it? Have I said once that it was stoppable? I only ask:
WHAT DID HE DO????
I will say now though, it could have been stopped. I dont know how, but its not my job. It could have been stopped, but not if we didnt try...
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Also Kappa whats all this Bush didnt do enough about 911?
You are guy who claimed that 911 was a CIA/Bush conspiracy and that the buildings were rigged with explosives, and that the pentagon was hit by a cruise missle.
And now you rave that not enough attention was paid to bin laden..
GIVE ME A FIN BREAK...
weak.. keep dancing grun... dont answer the question..
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Do you support the Patriot Act Kappa?
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Do you support the Patriot Act Kappa?
weak
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Originally posted by TheDudeDVant
weak.. keep dancing grun... dont answer the question..
BS
One day you are saying 911 was an inside job and now you come all ouraged that bbush didnt pay attention to bin laden.
Do you really expect anyone to take your BS seriously?
Kappa 1:
Bush planed 911 and drove CIA drones into WTC!!! He is evil!!!
Kappa 2:
Bush did not act on vague memo. Bin laden did 911. Bush is evil..
So ok dude we know you hate bush... But please stay away from the insanity..
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Sure bin laden would like to attack us again and again. He's proven that he has had the desire and ability to murder our citizens for over 10 years. You must do something, but whatever it is, don't make it easier for law enforcement to infiltrate terrorist organizations or you'll have every alarmist screaming police state and that the sky of liberty is falling. :rolleyes:
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My answer to your idiotic questyion is that nothing useful could have been done in 2001 to act on a vague memo saying:
"Bin Laden Determined to Strike in USA"
When?
Where?
How?
What specific target?
What waepon?
Who?
What tactics?
Which state?
Which city?
Which event?
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
BS
One day you are saying 911 was an inside job and now you come all ouraged that bbush didnt pay attention to bin laden.
Do you really expect anyone to take your BS seriously?
Kappa 1:
Bush planed 911 and drove CIA drones into WTC!!! He is evil!!!
Kappa 2:
Bush did not act on vague memo. Bin laden did 911. Bush is evil..
So ok dude we know you hate bush... But please stay away from the insanity..
lol Grun.. thats your best?? Fabricate lies about me? Have you sunk to this level already? We just got started?? You can **** yourself until you decide you wanna have a real conversation..
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dude
I will make this really simple for you, if you don't wont Bush in office...don't vote for him. You are not going to change minds, just vote the way you want.
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Actually ur right...
You thought those all those "Bush is evil he cause 911, 911 WTC had explosives? Pentagon was hit by missle" nutjob conspiracies were merely "interesting" and just asked us to disprove them... And when we did you just argued for them some some more...
UP YOURS KAPPA...
Please take yiour BS somewhere else... Please!
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
BS
One day you are saying 911 was an inside job and now you come all ouraged that bbush didnt pay attention to bin laden.
Do you really expect anyone to take your BS seriously?
Kappa 1:
Bush planed 911 and drove CIA drones into WTC!!! He is evil!!!
Kappa 2:
Bush did not act on vague memo. Bin laden did 911. Bush is evil..
So ok dude we know you hate bush... But please stay away from the insanity..
Point...Grun.
Kappa-
Put the mouse down and slowly back away...
Let me help you out here.
Try this..
Grun, you nazi, I would post the link that would prove you wrong so I could win the argument and the trip to Bermuda, but I have to go to (Sleep/Work/School/Bathhouse) right now. I'll post later.
Kappa
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Originally posted by narsus
dude
I will make this really simple for you, if you don't wont Bush in office...don't vote for him. You are not going to change minds, just vote the way you want.
Thanks for the go ahead guy. But that is not why the thread was posted and hence not why I make these post.. peace 8)
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Actually ur right...
You thought those all those "Bush is evil he cause 911, 911 WTC had explosives? Pentagon was hit by missle" nutjob conspiracies were merely "interesting" and just asked us to disprove them... And when we did you just argued for them some some more...
UP YOURS KAPPA...
Please take yiour BS somewhere else... Please!
lol Grun.. Your filled with hate guy. I'm sorry for you. It just poors outta most everything you post.. Hope your life gets better!
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And whats a guy who belives that 911 was done by the US government filled with? Poweful Sedatives?
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
And whats a guy who belives that 911 was done by the US government filled with? Poweful Sedatives?
keep on avoiding the question and attacking me Grun. I understand the weakness that wont allow you to answer it and the hate that compells you to attack. I forgive you.. 8)
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I answered your question Kappa..
Nothing could have been done in August 2001 to avert 911 based only on the vague satement:
"Bin Laden determined to attack in US"
So now that you see that I answer your questin (twice now) plerae answer mine:
Kappa do you support the Patriot Act?
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
I answered your question Kappa..
Nothing could have been done in August 2001 to avert 911 based only on the vague satement:
"Bin Laden determined to attack in US"
So now that you see that I answer your questin (twice now) plerae answer mine:
Kappa do you support the Patriot Act?
that was not my question. I didnt ask what 'could' have been done.. I asked what 'was' done....
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Well what do you think could have been done to in August 2001 to stop 911 based on the vague memo:
Bin Laden Determined to Strike in USA..
If you are criticizing bush on the assumption that nothing was done you must have some idea that something could have been done based on that info to prevent 911 during august 2001.
What is that?
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Well what do you think could have been done to in August 2001 to stop 911 based on the vague memo:
Bin Laden Determined to Strike in USA..
If you are criticizing bush on the assumption that nothing was done you must have some idea that something could have been done based on that info to prevent 911 during august 2001.
What is that?
What was done specifically by our president to follow up this 'vague' threat after receiving the PDB memo?
Edit: obviously the CIA didnt pull this outta their ass, what follow ups where ordered/performed by our president?
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I dont know, apparently unlike you I'm not privvy to the white house?
Obviously your assumption is that nothing was done. Well prove it...
And again I ask what do you think could have bneen done in august 2001 to stop 911 based on the follwing info:
Bin Laden determined to strike in USA..
That statemt only gives two points of info:
1: Bin Laden wants to attack - NOT that he is carrying it out or actively planning a specific attcak
2: He wants to attcak in the USA.
The satenment does not give;
NOT EVEN A GENERAL TIMELINE
NO GENERAL LOCATION
NO TARGET TYPE
NO ATTACK TYPE
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
I dont know, apparently unlike you I'm not privvy to the white house?
Obviously your assumption is that nothing was done. Well prove it...
Would you believe had he done something or attempted to do anything the White House would have let the world know?? I mean it was very near a year, perhaps more, after 9/11 that the country found out about the Aug. 6 PDB.
I will tell you what he did.. Aug 7th the president left Washington for Crawford, Tx for a 30day holiday..
Seeing how the White House would want to defend this issue, wouldnt it be logical that they would let the country know the steps they took to attempt to avoid 9/11? Instead, Rice lies about the memo stating that it said nothing about the attack in the country.
How many 'threating' PDB that specifically list a threat from a specific group do you think passes over the presidents desk?
We need a President Truman back in office. At least he took responsibility if something went wrong..
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What did the memo say Kappa, beyonf that Bin Laden was determined to attack somewhere on this map in an unspecified timeframe:
(http://www.sportscharms.net/images/Maps/usa%20map.gif)
Was he goind to accack public busses?
Blow up airplanes?
Blow up shoppiong centers?
Movie theatersa?
Hotels?
stock exchanges?
Nuclear plants?
Bomb Airprt?
Bomb the new years ceremony?
Sinper attack?
etc.. etc.. etc..
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Here is the text of the Aug 6 PDB:
Clandestine, foreign government, and media reports indicate bin Laden since 1997 has wanted to conduct terrorist attacks in the U.S. Bin Laden implied in U.S. television interviews in 1997 and 1998 that his followers would follow the example of World Trade Center bomber Ramzi Yousef and "bring the fighting to America."
After U.S. missile strikes on his base in Afghanistan in 1998, bin Laden told followers he wanted to retaliate in Washington, according to a . . . service.
An Egyptian Islamic Jihad (E.I.J.) operative told an . . . service at the same time that bin Laden was planning to exploit the operative's access to the U.S. to mount a terrorist strike.
The millennium plotting in Canada in 1999 may have been part of bin Laden's first serious attempt to implement a terrorist strike in the U.S. Convicted plotter Ahmed Ressam has told the F.B.I. that he conceived the idea to attack Los Angeles International Airport himself, but that bin Laden lieutenant Abu Zubaydah encouraged him and helped facilitate the operation. Ressam also said that in 1998 Abu Zubaydah was planning his own U.S. attack.
Ressam says bin Laden was aware of the Los Angeles operation.
Although bin Laden has not succeeded, his attacks against the U.S. embassies in Kenya and Tanzania in 1998 demonstrate that he prepares operations years in advance and is not deterred by setbacks. Bin Laden associates surveilled our embassies in Nairobi and Dar es Salaam as early as 1993, and some members of the Nairobi cell planning the bombings were arrested and deported in 1997.
Al Qaeda members — including some who are U.S. citizens — have resided in or traveled to the U.S. for years, and the group apparently maintains a support structure that could aid attacks. Two Al Qaeda members found guilty in the conspiracy to bomb our embassies in East Africa were U.S. citizens, and a senior E.I.J. member lived in California in the mid-1990's.
A clandestine source said in 1998 that a bin Laden cell in New York was recruiting Muslim-American youth for attacks.
We have not been able to corroborate some of the more sensational threat reporting, such as that from a . . . service in 1998 saying that bin Laden wanted to hijack a U.S. aircraft to gain the release of "Blind Sheik" Omar Abdel Rahman and other U.S.-held extremists.
Nevertheless, F.B.I. information since that time indicates patterns of suspicious activity in this country consistent with preparations for hijackings or other types of attacks, including recent surveillance of federal buildings in New York.
The F.B.I. is conducting approximately 70 full field investigations throughout the U.S. that it considers bin Laden-related. C.I.A. and the F.B.I. are investigating a call to our embassy in the U.A.E. in May saying that a group of bin Laden supporters was in the U.S. planning attacks with explosives
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Now, other than telling the FBI to "keep after it" What exactly do you propose he should have done, based on that memo? Spit it out, and use all your hindsight in doing so, Dude.
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Originally posted by Lizking
Now, other than telling the FBI to "keep after it" What exactly do you propose he should have done, based on that memo? Spit it out, and use all your hindsight in doing so, Dude.
Bush should have arrested Mohammed Atta!!! Why didnt he?
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What did he do Grun? Damn man.. answer it...
The F.B.I. is conducting approximately 70 full field investigations throughout the U.S. that it considers bin Laden-related. C.I.A. and the F.B.I. are investigating a call to our embassy in the U.A.E. in May saying that a group of bin Laden supporters was in the U.S. planning attacks with explosives
Where more FBI agents added to the case? You guys do understand that the 70 field investigations represent only 70 FBI agents assigned to AQ??
Where the American people warned? They have NO trouble warning us today.
What steps were taken? Who gives a damn what I would have or would do now.. WHAT DID OUR PRESIDENT do?!?!
lol the more you guys beat around this, the funnier it is. I will say AGAIN, the president could have taken action that may or may not have stopped 9/11.. I'm asking specifically what steps were taken to attempt to stop BinLaden from attacking INSIDE the US?? Whether it could have been stopped is Moot, WHAT DID HE DO TO TRY TO STOP IT???
He is the President of the US. The US was attacked with no warning to the people. The government was warned. What did our government, president specifically, do to avoid this??
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Sorry Kappa I missed that white house meeting so I dont know, would you care to fill me in?
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Originally posted by TheDudeDVant
that was not my question. I didnt ask what 'could' have been done.. I asked what 'was' done....
The simple fact is..None of us are privvy to what goes on in the white house, FBI, or CIA...so none of us knows if "nothing" was done. Another fact..Little could have been done to prevent it...so it's safe to say it would have happened regardless one way or another.
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Originally posted by TheDudeDVant
What did he do Grun? Damn man.. answer it...
Where more FBI agents added to the case? You guys do understand that the 70 field investigations represent only 70 FBI agents assigned to AQ??
Where the American people warned? They have NO trouble warning us today.
What steps were taken? Who gives a damn what I would have or would do now.. WHAT DID OUR PRESIDENT do?!?!
lol the more you guys beat around this, the funnier it is. I will say AGAIN, the president could have taken action that may or may not have stopped 9/11.. I'm asking specifically what steps were taken to attempt to stop BinLaden from attacking INSIDE the US?? Whether it could have been stopped is MUTE, WHAT DID HE DO TO TRY TO STOP IT???
He is the President of the US. The US was attacked with no warning to the people. The government was warned. What did our government, president specifically, do to avoid this??
After having had a serious attack like that on US soil of course we are warned. The American people want to be warned. Before all this less than 20% of Americans were concerned about terrorist attacks. No one cared to hear about it before.
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wow guys.. such blind loyalty...
In times of war or peace, when concerned with external threats to our country, we the people look to our president to make the right choices for our mutual protection. How can you guys sit there with a sane mind and say that our president is not responsible for his country being attacked? Those numbers add up in Neo-con world? I dont care who is president, if the country is blindsided on their watch, they are responsible. How is that even questionable? Whether the attacks could or could not have been stopped is not the point. The point is nothing was done differently on Aug7th than was done on Aug5th. Our leaders did nothing. You guys can hide behind the, 'we were not privy to such information from the whitehouse' curtain if you must. But it is very obvious that had our president taken specific actions after the PDB on Aug 6th, we the people would know if for no other reason than the WhiteHouse attempting to cover ass.
Responsiblity does not make one a bad person. Rather, IMHO, he would be twice the man if he'd owe up to just one mistake. This one in particular. Whether it is soley his fault is not the point, the point is he is our leader hence he should attempt to act like one and take the responsibility..
LoL Grun, how would Capt. Kirk anwser that question of responsibility??
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Originally posted by ASTAC
After having had a serious attack like that on US soil of course we are warned. The American people want to be warned. Before all this less than 20% of Americans were concerned about terrorist attacks. No one cared to hear about it before.
That does not matter. It is our governments responsibility, no DUTY, to warn its citizens of clear and present danger..
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Originally posted by TheDudeDVant
I will say now though, it could have been stopped. I dont know how, but its not my job. It could have been stopped, but not if we didnt try...
I love this...If you don't know how it could have been stopped then how the hell do you know it could have been?
You work for Kerry? I would have done things better than Bush...not going to tell you how but it would have been better.
In other words you don't know Jack but you still wanna Bltch!
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I dont know Kappa. Captain Kirk is a fictinal TV charcacter, I'm not suirte how thart character would react... Star Trek is a TV show...
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"I am not an expert on national security, but I play one on the iternet."
Kappa
:)
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Originally posted by Mighty1
I love this...If you don't know how it could have been stopped then how the hell do you know it could have been?
You work for Kerry? I would have done things better than Bush...not going to tell you how but it would have been better.
In other words you don't know Jack but you still wanna Bltch!
To say that it could not have been stopped is to say that BinLaden and AQ are smarter, faster, and better than we are.. Is that what you are saying? They are an unstoppable force?
BS.. It could have been stopped had things happened differently. Mostly things on our end granted. There are few impossibilities that I believe in. Them being better, smarter, faster, or more evolved is one of my impossibilities..
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Originally posted by TheDudeDVant
I will tell you what he did.. Aug 7th the president left Washington for Crawford, Tx for a 30day holiday..
You're kidding!:rofl
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Originally posted by TheDudeDVant
That does not matter. It is our governments responsibility, no DUTY, to warn its citizens of clear and present danger..
To do so every time you received a vauge message like that one, would keep the American people in a state of panic. Is that the kind of life you want to lead. Maybe he didn't do anything..Maybe it was because he wanted more intel on the matter. There was nothing to act on in that message except for "keep watching" them. Had the informaation been clearer then maybe real action could have been taken. I will almost garantee that EVERY president in the last 50 years has received some sort of memo with the same kind of info about attacks against the US, and you never heard anything in the past. So now you can blame the 1st world trade center attack, the USS COLE, and the embassy bombings, on the president at the time. I'm sure he got some sort of intel on it.
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
I dont know Kappa. Captain Kirk is a fictinal TV charcacter, I'm not suirte how thart character would react... Star Trek is a TV show...
BS .. your a trekie I know this.. You know exactly how the character would react..
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Originally posted by ASTAC
To do so every time you received a vauge message like that one, would keep the American people in a state of panic.
Kinda like it is now, eh? Whats the color today??
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Why can you guys not admit since hes the head guy the buck stops with him? Hes too much of a ***** to admit that himself, you guys are ******* too?
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http://www.mypetgoat.com
a picture says a thousand words...need I say more..
I don't agree with everything on that page but the author does make some valid points..
DoctorYo
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Originally posted by TheDudeDVant
Kinda like it is now, eh? Whats the color today??
Here comes the ghey rolleyes
:rolleyes:
You see, we live that way now because the American people as a whole have finally realized that we as a people are not invincable, and can be vunerable. We demand to know. If it had never happened we wouldn't be getting these warnings. It' would be business as usual. Also you can tell that the farther away from the attacks we get..the less you hear about terrorist warnings..We headrd a lot more the year after the WTC than we are now.
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To say that it could not have been stopped is to say that BinLaden and AQ are smarter, faster, and better than we are.. Is that what you are saying? They are an unstoppable force?
That's it don't give a solution just use an absurd absolute.
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christ astac.. thats not even closely a logical reason not to warn the american people of an iminate threat before hand. If you have the chance of being killed by a roving pack of bunnies, wouldnt you wanna know? Or would you not be interested because, well because your not interested??
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Originally posted by Mighty1
That's it don't give a solution just use an absurd absolute.
sorry guy, you gave the first absurd absolute saying 9/11 could not have been stopped...not specifically, but in so many words you implied it..
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Originally posted by TheDudeDVant
Kinda like it is now, eh? Whats the color today??
So you do support this? I thought you hated Bush's vague warnings about attacks...
You see this is why nobody believes your BS...
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
So you do support this? I thought you hated Bush's vague warnings about attacks...
You see this is why nobody believes your BS...
keep attacking Grun.. What BS am I asking you to believe? None that I can reason.. Please tell..
And Grun. you made up that entire first line.. Please stop fabricating about me.. thats twice now you have done it in this thread alone.. Is that the best you have?
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Originally posted by TheDudeDVant
Kinda like it is now, eh? Whats the color today??
Clearly you support Bush's vague terror warnings...
How could have I misread that..
:rolleyes:
WE NO BUY YOUR BS
ok?
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Clearly you support Bush's vague terror warnings...
How could have I misread that..
:rolleyes:
weak grun.. damn weak.. Dont like the subject anymore? You have not attempted to discuss it in your last 5-6 post.. You just make **** up.. Why is that you suppose?
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Q: What did he do when he received the memo?
A: Nothing....
Q: What could he have done with the info in the memo?
A: Everything he did the days following the attack.
He gets the same intell that he received then. Why is he now taking the intell seriously? Because it happened.
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Originally posted by jamusta
Q: What did he do when he received the memo?
A: Nothing....
Q: What could he have done with the info in the memo?
A: Everything he did the days following the attack.
He gets the same intell that he received then. Why is he now taking the intell seriously? Because it happened.
ty.. finally a person with Balls!! how refreshing!
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So kappa you would have supported an invasion of fghanistan in august 2001 based just on the words in that memo?
Again nobody will buy that BS from you...
NOBODY WILL BUY THAT BS COMING FROM YOU..
Say didnt you support the claim that the afghanistna invaion was just to build the natural gas pipleine - even after the 911 attcaks?
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
So kappa you would have supported an invasion of fghanistan based just on that memo?
Again nobody will buy that BS from you... Say didnt you support the claim that the afghanistna invaion was just to build the natural gas pipleine - even after the 911 attcaks?
cya Grun.. I dont wish to talk to you since your a fabricator and a liar.. I reinstate my former opinion of you that you are nothing more than a waste of time and not worth a response.. cya next time I get a chance to own you in the MA.. cause I can, and will..8)
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You just might be a better flight sim pilot than me, and I hope that makes you feel better.
I enoyed our discussion! :)
-
Dude,
You are gonna have to get used to the fact that Bush will be our president for the next four years. If you hate him so much then you can catch the next flight leaving the country. We don't need your type here.
BTW..you can't get the reaction you wanted from the public so now you attack someones gaming skills? Looks like your reaching now. Good Job
-
I found that delicious - especially the "because I can" part...
:D
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hehe my type.. thats a good one! More of the same us/them referring to americans BS.. Divide!
I was not attacking his skills.. I dunno how good he is.. I was complementing mine and I dont have to reach far for that.. 8)
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Thought you were leaving...
Bye bye now..take care
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Originally posted by ASTAC
Thought you were leaving...
Bye bye now..take care
Nope, im here.. Your name isn't Grunherz is it?? bye bye now.. 8)
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Originally posted by TheDudeDVant
I was not attacking his skills.. I dunno how good he is.. I was complementing mine and I dont have to reach far for that.. 8)
:rofl :rofl
And I didnt think this gaming angle could get more sad..
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How good are you Kappa?
-
Originally posted by TheDudeDVant
Nope, im here.. Your name isn't Grunherz is it?? bye bye now.. 8)
instead of asking grunherz to educate you for free why dont you read the 9/11 commissions report? or read the summary if you dont have the time. then if you still think that bush was personally repsonsible for inaction point out why you think this?
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Originally posted by DoctorYO
http://www.mypetgoat.com
a picture says a thousand words...need I say more..
I don't agree with everything on that page but the author does make some valid points..
DoctorYo
"He has created a sharply divided country and a sharply divided world. He continues to scare the American public by using the terrorist threat to promote a large portion of his policies. We will always live in a world with tragedies, but fighting a hatred of America cannot be accomplished by invasions and simply killing all those who oppose us. Bush had to be told to quit reading to the children. Maybe he really likes kids. Maybe he's just not too sure how to run a country without being told what to do.'
Seems spot on.:aok
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
How good are you Kappa?
he cant be that good. he wouldnt have to talk about it if he was. that pretty much applies to every form of competition in life. i gurantee hes better than me tho. :)
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Originally posted by Torque
"He has created a sharply divided country and a sharply divided world. He continues to scare the American public by using the terrorist threat to promote a large portion of his policies. We will always live in a world with tragedies, but fighting a hatred of America cannot be accomplished by invasions and simply killing all those who oppose us. Bush had to be told to quit reading to the children. Maybe he really likes kids. Maybe he's just not too sure how to run a country without being told what to do.'
Seems spot on.:aok
You are pretty weak minded if you agrre with anything spewed forth by that US Hating blob so called movie director hack MM
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Originally posted by anonymous
he cant be that good. he wouldnt have to talk about it if he was. that pretty much applies to every form of competition in life. i gurantee hes better than me tho. :)
Thats right normally.. However that was the first time I had written something like that about myself. The original post was just saying that I would not post to Grunherz anymore but that I would see him in the MA..
But alas, your right, im not that good actually.. I just get lucky.. 8)
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Complete the Following:
Kappa is to TheDudeDvant
as
TheDudeDvant is to:
A) Paranoid
B)Extreme Left
C) Frightening
D)Pwned
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Muck.. stop humping my leg would you! People are starting to stare!
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Originally posted by TheDudeDVant
Muck.. stop humping my leg would you! People are starting to stare!
If I refuse, are you going to hunt me down in....
*cue threatening music*
THE MAIN ARENA!!!
hehe
Grun Owns you!
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lol what are you , the hired help?
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Originally posted by TheDudeDVant
lol what are you , the hired help?
I just enjoyed this thread, thoroughly.
You're going to be sore for a day or two, but you'll get over it.
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Sore? Are you attempting to mentally project something my way??
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Originally posted by TheDudeDVant
Sore? Are you attempting to mentally project something my way??
I would not do anything to you that Grun has not already done in this thread....Doooood
Peace...Dooood..
hehe
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O I see.. your just attempting to make up for Gruns lies and fabrications? yea, he did so well..
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Didn't read the thread, just the title.
From this Liberal's perspective 9/11 is Osama bin Laden's fault.
Just wanted to throw a Liberal perspective in real quick.
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Hi Karnak!
I hope that nobody ever doubted that was the liberal perspective.. However I dont think I can say the same about the leftist hate america perspective - those guys are just like neo nazis and holocause denyers. They have other ideas about who was at fault and why..
BTW did you see were getting tyhe Ju86 or the Blenheim as our next bomber..
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Once again no solution.
I implied that YOU don't know one way or another if 911 could have been prevented.
I don't know the facts Bush had anymore than you do so I can't say if it could or couldn't have been prevented.
BTW Kerry didn't stop the attack either so should we blame him?
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Originally posted by Mighty1
Once again no solution.
I implied that YOU don't know one way or another if 911 could have been prevented.
I don't know the facts Bush had anymore than you do so I can't say if it could or couldn't have been prevented.
BTW Kerry didn't stop the attack either so should we blame him?
well kerry was one of many who voted to slash intel budget despite intel guys telling them this very bad idea. and he was hostile to us intel community while senator.
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Originally posted by SaburoS
Ohoh, here we go again....
Sounds like a Ronnie statement Sab:)
I made the 9/11 comment because of Cheney:
"It's absolutely essential that eight weeks from today, on Nov. 2, we make the right choice, because if we make the wrong choice then the danger is that we'll get hit again and we'll be hit in a way that will be devastating from the standpoint of the United States," Cheney told about 350 supporters at a town-hall meeting in this Iowa city.
If Kerry were elected, Cheney said the nation risks falling back into a "pre-9/11 mind-set" that terrorist attacks are criminal acts that require a reactive approach. Instead, he said Bush's offensive approach works to root out terrorists where they plan and train, and pressure countries that harbor terrorists.
The admin cant have it both ways:) They had evidence that an attack was imminent. It happened anyway. Im not saying they could have prevented it but saying Kerry will bring an attack is ludicrous.
:lol
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Originally posted by Mighty1
Once again no solution.
I implied that YOU don't know one way or another if 911 could have been prevented.
I don't know the facts Bush had anymore than you do so I can't say if it could or couldn't have been prevented.
BTW Kerry didn't stop the attack either so should we blame him?
If he were president, absolutly!
Do I know it could have been prevented? No, I do not know it could have been, but I refuse to believe stopping it was an impossibility had something other than nothing been done. You see, unlike others here I am not judging 9/11 on party lines. I am saying nothing was done when something, anything, should have been done. Any attack on any country ultimatly is the responsibility of the people or peoples in charge.. To make the accusation that Bush is not responsible for 9/11 is crazy. Responsible in the idea that Bush orcistrated 9/11, no way! Responsible in the fact that he was the sitting president and his country was attacked while he had advanced warning and failed to even attempt to act... I am saying nothing more, nothing less..
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Kappa do you support the Patriot Act?
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Well what do you think could have been done to in August 2001 to stop 911 based on the vague memo:
Bin Laden Determined to Strike in USA..
If you are criticizing bush on the assumption that nothing was done you must have some idea that something could have been done based on that info to prevent 911 during august 2001.
What is that?
Well for one he could have gone after Bin Laden. It seems to me that many righties on the bb's have criticized Clinton for not doing that during his terms.
So why is it that you arent saying Bush should have done just that?
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Originally posted by ASTAC
To do so every time you received a vauge message like that one, would keep the American people in a state of panic. Is that the kind of life you want to lead. .
THat is exactly what the admin does now with its color coded warning system.
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Originally posted by Silat
Well for one he could have gone after Bin Laden. It seems to me that many righties on the bb's have criticized Clinton for not doing that during his terms.
So why is it that you arent saying Bush should have done just that?
You mean preemptively invade another country before 911 based on a small amout of info in this memo? And a country vital to US oil and energy companies like UNOCAL? Oh the conspiracy nuts that would bring out...
Im not buying that argument from you Silat any more than I would from Kappa...
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Originally posted by Silat
THat is exactly what the admin does now with its color coded warning system.
And yiu are unhappy because? I mean he is doing something with every little vague and unspecific memo.. By the tone of your post youi dont seem to like that at all..
Guess what I dont buy this from you either...
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Understand Silat, we were suppose to do nothing. We were suppose to sit by and wait for our country folk to die. Does it matter we were pre-warned? Does it matter our government failed to act? Does it matter our government failed to warn the general public? Of course not.. Our government was suppose to do nothing more than sit idly by and watch it's citizens die. Dont you see all the justification for our rooftop fiddling government in this thread? Clearly it was there destiny to die and nothing could have changed that. So no one is to blame except maybe Clinton..
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Kappa would have saved us!
But hey I'm sure you guys will support bush the next time he preemptively invades another country based on the slightest threat intelligence...
Hey lets have a BS check Silat and Kappa..
Did you guys support the Iraq invasion?
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Originally posted by Silat
THat is exactly what the admin does now with its color coded warning system.
And agian, the lack of reading comprehesion does not allow some of us to understand the context in which you posted this..
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Originally posted by TheDudeDVant
Excuses Excuses Excuses......
What did our President do UPON receiving the Oct. 6 PDB memo???????????
WHAT DID HE DO????
Dude, he's got a staff. He probably delegated it.
What you want him to do, go to every airport and inspect the passengers, we don't even do that now,
Want him to go to southern boarder and stop illegals’, we don't do it now,
Want him to inspect every cargo container; we don't even do it now.
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Originally posted by TheDudeDVant
And agian, the lack of reading comprehesion does not allow some of us to understand the context in which you posted this..
So even now, with the hindsight of 911 you beive that Bush terror warnings on threat memos are evil mass mind control ala 1984..
But you imply that you would support and want such a warning based on the vague 2001 memo... All before 911..
Right...
And you know what I think of the context under which you post stuff like this Kappa...
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Sorry but to make the accusation that Bush IS responsible for 9/11 is crazy!
I can throw a note on his desk that says "bomb go boom" and if he does nothing and I bomb something does that make him responisible?
What was he supposed to do give a warning to everyone? What would he say? "We think some bad people may do something bad somewhere so watch out"?
Hell saying Bush was responisble for 911 is like saying F/911 was a documentary.
Some retards may believe it but it doesn't make it true.
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
You mean preemptively invade another country before 911 based on a small amout of info in this memo? And a country vital to US oil and energy companies like UNOCAL? Oh the conspiracy nuts that would bring out...
Im not buying that argument from you Silat any more than I would from Kappa...
No.
I meant what is good for the goose is good for the gander Grun. Fair and balanced...
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
And yiu are unhappy because? I mean he is doing something with every little vague and unspecific memo.. By the tone of your post youi dont seem to like that at all..
Guess what I dont buy this from you either...
Wow!! I didnt say I was unhappy.
Talk about changing the message.
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
So even now, with the hindsight of 911 you beive that Bush terror warnings on threat memos are evil mass mind control ala 1984..
But you imply that you would support and want such a warning based on the vague 2001 memo... All before 911..
Right...
And you know what I think of the context under which you post stuff like this Kappa...
No .. I never said that but nice spin. There is a job for you at FOX:)
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No 9/11 isn't Bush's fault but the current mess in Iraq surely is.
...-Gixer
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Originally posted by Gixer
No 9/11 isn't Bush's fault but the current mess in Iraq surely is.
...-Gixer
Invading it's neighbors, torturing and murdering it's citizens, Iraq has been a mess for many years. Bush is cleaning it up.
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Originally posted by Silat
No .. I never said that but nice spin. There is a job for you at FOX:)
I'm a devout CNN fan going back to Gulf War 1 and it shows.. :)
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Originally posted by Gixer
No 9/11 isn't Bush's fault but the current mess in Iraq surely is.
...-Gixer
I hear alot of people use the word mess when they describe or discuss Iraq. I think it's a bit melodramatic, but that's just me.
-
To say Bush is responsible for 9/11 is outrageous. I read that memo, no where does it say an attack is imminent. However it does say the FBI had 70 ongoing investigations on AQ suspects. That shows *something* was already being done. With the incomplete information in that memo you can hardly do more.
Also, not one of us knows if more or less was done after that memo and to DEMAND to know from people who frequent this forum what if anything was done about it is preposterous.
Those of you who think Bush could have or should have done something more should run for President. You try to lead a country. You try to sift through all the memos you get everyday and decide which ones are important and which ones arent. I dare say none of you would do a better job, in fact most would probably do far worse than our President.
Btw....Kappa if you dont like MY post.....I go by Elfie in the MA also, feel free to come pwn me :)
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Originally posted by Elfie
Btw....Kappa if you dont like MY post.....I go by Elfie in the MA also, feel free to come pwn me :)
You are doomed!!! :rofl
I gotta say that little gem of Kappa's was the most pathetic argument even on this BBS, especially the self parising add-on...
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
You are doomed!!! :rofl
I gotta say that little gem of Kappa's was the most pathetic argument even on this BBS, especially the self parising add-on...
Maybe I am doomed.....but maybe not, I am not totally unskilled in flight sim combat :)
I recall a situation in AW where an individual got banned for inappropriate language and somehow felt I was the one responsible for getting him banned. He emailed another AW player and that player hunted me for days. The first few days he killed me repeatedly. However, I learned and after a few days the tide turned and the Hunter became the Hunted :)
One friend in particular on the Hunter's team would tell me where he was, and I would go there just to kill him. Kinda funny how when I started winning he started whining and eventually stopped hunting me :)
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Originally posted by VOR
I hear alot of people use the word mess when they describe or discuss Iraq. I think it's a bit melodramatic, but that's just me.
I find Bush constant "Thugs and Assasins","Hunt Down","Freedom Loving People" etc... Melodramatic but that's just me.
...-Gixer
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Originally posted by Gixer
I find Bush constant "Thugs and Assasins","Hunt Down","Freedom Loving People" etc... Melodramatic but that's just me.
...-Gixer
Fair enough I suppose, but let's consider the things that are *really* going on there..day to day, versus the hype on the news and the ad-libs by politicians.
-
To answer a question put forth earlier in this thread, WWJKD?
The Captain would put the Enterprise in cloaked orbit (cloaking device appropriated from the Klingon Empire) passing over the continental United States and beam down a landing party. Two of the landing party would meet their fates, (The red shirted ones) and in retaliation, James T Kirk would set the Enterprise's phasers on stun and then fire on the entire US eastern seaboard.
Aircraft would be tractor beamed to safe landings, and a thorough search for the sabatours and killers of the red shirted crewmembers would ensue.
If this strategy did not prove successful, a warp speed slingshot trajectory around the Sun with an extremely small percentage of sucess would emperil the crew but ultimately prove sucessful in causing a time shift which would result in the crew of the Enterprise arriving before any terrorist act occurs, but the crew having perfect 20/20 intellegence would arrest all perpetrators.
Not much of this technology is available to President Bush.
-
Ok ...lets take it a step farther....;)
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Some things the US citizens should never forget:
After the 1993 World Trade Center bombing, which killed six and injured 1,000; President Clinton promised that those responsible would be hunted down and punished.
After the 1995 bombing in Saudi Arabia, which killed five U.S. military personnel; Clinton promised that those responsible would be hunted down and punished.
After the 1996 Khobar Towers bombing in Saudi Arabia, which killed 19 and injured 200 U.S. military personnel; Clinton promised that those responsible would be hunted down and punished.
After the 1998 bombing of U.S. embassies in Africa, which killed 224 and injured 5,000; Clinton promised that those responsible would be hunted down and punished.
After the 2000 bombing of the USS Cole, which killed 17 and injured 39 U.S. sailors; Clinton promised that those responsible would be hunted down and punished.
Maybe if Clinton had kept his promise, an estimated 7,000 people in New York and Washington, D.C. that are now dead would be alive today.
breakthechain.org
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Clinton Admits Doubts About His Administration's al-Qaeda Response
Posted April 9, 2004
By Shaun Waterman
The commission probing the Sept. 11 terror attacks met Thursday with former President Bill Clinton in a three-and-a-half hour, closed-door session during which, commissioners said, he expressed some doubts about his administration's response to terrorist attacks by al-Qaeda.
"He was very frank. He gave us a lot of very helpful insight into things that happened [and his] policy approaches [to them]," said Reagan-era Navy secretary commissioner John F. Lehman.
The meeting -- though likely to be overshadowed by the public testimony under oath the commission heard the same day from current National Security Adviser Condoleezza Rice -- brings into sharp relief long-standing allegations that Clinton's response to a series of attacks by Islamic terrorists made the United States appear weak and encouraged al-Qaeda in their belief that they could strike the United States with impunity.
"We did go into some of the obvious criticisms of the eight years under his tenure," Lehman told CNN, after news of the Clinton meeting broke late Thursday afternoon.
He added that the former president was now second-guessing some of the decisions that he made at that time. "He was very frank, very open about talking about some decisions where, had he known some things, [they] might have gone one way or another way."
The commission -- formally known as the National Commission on Terrorist Attacks Against the United States -- has already reported that there were several occasions after the attacks on two U.S. embassies in East Africa when senior officials might have had an opportunity to order terrorist mastermind Osama bin Laden killed, either with cruise missiles or by locally recruited Afghan CIA agents.
On four occasions in 1998-99, commission investigators said at a hearing last month, officials -- including counterterrorism tzar Richard A. Clarke, CIA Director George Tenet and Clinton National Security Adviser Samuel R. Berger -- opted not to strike locations where bin Laden was thought to be. Officials said their information was not certain enough and the number of innocent civilians who might be killed was unacceptably high.
Commissioners said they also asked Clinton about policy matters. "We asked him a host of big questions, big policy recommendations," said former Indiana Democratic congressman and commission member Tim Roemer.
The former president's office said in a statement that Clinton was "pleased" to have had the opportunity to meet with the panel "and believed it was a very constructive meeting."
Commissioner Jamie Gorelick, who was Clinton's deputy attorney general, told CNN that the former president -- as he is wont -- was very voluble. "He even answered questions we didn't ask," she joked.
Commissioner Slade Gorton, the former GOP senator from Washington state, added that the meeting ran over by almost an hour but was "very valuable" because "President Clinton has done a lot of thinking since he left office on issues like this," and said the commission was grateful for his advice.
Both panelists also took the opportunity to comment on papers from the Clinton White House, which, though provided to the current administration by the former president's archive, were not turned over to the commission.
After the issue was brought to light by former Clinton official Bruce R. Lindsey, commission lawyers were given access to the papers and concluded that, of more than 10,000 documents, less than 70 were relevant to their inquiry and not duplicative of material already obtained elsewhere.
"We haven't gotten them yet," Gorton said of the documents, "and they are relevant to our mission. ... We fully expect that we will get all of them so that they can inform our ultimate report."
"Now that we found out why it was that we didn't get certain Clinton administration documents that were withheld by the White House," added Gorelick, "we're going to issue a parallel request for similar Bush administration documents."
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Links upon links of what Clinton didn't do. He was to blame 1st don't you think?
Bush did plenty. Bush is doing plenty. Bush WILL continue to do plenty.
So many so quick to lay blame. So many so quick to point fingers.
Yet...So few to take the bull by the horns and get done what needs to be done. So few to do the dirty part of the job.
Ohhh...but the finger pointers...they will be there pointing...Demonstrating...ma rching and saying we have no business doing anything basically.
I guess maybe I am one of very very few people that think that if you hit me once shame on you...but 3 or 4 times? eek: Thats when it becomes , at least in my mind , time to make sure you NEVER have that chance again.
Could Bush have done more prior to 9/11? No..I don't think so. Did he do anything? Yes...He STARTED his presidency. HE was doinig what ALL presidents do. Sorting thru info. Making policies , trying to get his administration going strong in the 1st year.
I say to you Finger pointers....
Lighten Up...Yall's Hero Cliniton lobbed cruise missles because he had to overcome White Spots on Dresses and funny scented Cigars. And misssed to boot. :rolleyes:
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Originally posted by RedTop
Ok ...lets take it a step farther....;)
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Lighten Up...Yall's Hero Cliniton lobbed cruise missles because he had to overcome White Spots on Dresses and funny scented Cigars. And misssed to boot. :rolleyes:
Dont stop there. What about Reagan? He didnt respond after Beirut. In fact he had us run which gave them (terrorists) the idea that they could hit us with impunity. Or why not go all the way back to George Washington?:)
The fact is that "my" current Pres is in charge and he gets the accolades when things go right and takes the crap when it goes wrong.That is the way it is.
Bin Laden is responsible and we dont have him. Oh but we will :) Election is coming:)
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Originally posted by Holden McGroin
To answer a question put forth earlier in this thread, WWJKD?
The Captain would put the Enterprise in cloaked orbit (cloaking device appropriated from the Klingon Empire) passing over the continental United States and beam down a landing party. Two of the landing party would meet their fates, (The red shirted ones) and in retaliation, James T Kirk would set the Enterprise's phasers on stun and then fire on the entire US eastern seaboard.
Aircraft would be tractor beamed to safe landings, and a thorough search for the sabatours and killers of the red shirted crewmembers would ensue.
If this strategy did not prove successful, a warp speed slingshot trajectory around the Sun with an extremely small percentage of sucess would emperil the crew but ultimately prove sucessful in causing a time shift which would result in the crew of the Enterprise arriving before any terrorist act occurs, but the crew having perfect 20/20 intellegence would arrest all perpetrators.
Not much of this technology is available to President Bush.
Nice mockery in an excellent story, but my question to what I consider a treky of WWJKD was in the context of responsibility. More exactly, the acceptance or denial of responsibility...
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Originally posted by JBA
Dude, he's got a staff. He probably delegated it.
What you want him to do, go to every airport and inspect the passengers, we don't even do that now,
Want him to go to southern boarder and stop illegals’, we don't do it now,
Want him to inspect every cargo container; we don't even do it now.
Again.. It matters none what I would have done or what I would do now. I am not the POTUS. What does matter is our leader failed to do anything.
What I wanted in this thread? I wanted to see if there were any gungho Bush supporters here with any guts.. That could freely admit what our POTUS did after the memo which was nothing. I wanted to understand how he could still be held not responsible. Even though he is our president and the country was attacked on his watch. To me, even if we were attacked under Clinton's watch, wanna take a gander on who I would hold ultimatly responsible? Clinton, absolutly. 9/11 is/was larger than party lines..
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Btw....Kappa if you dont like MY post.....I go by Elfie in the MA also, feel free to come pwn me Elfie
Thanks for the invite, but I have been doing just that since AW.. lol :)
You know it really had nothing to do with you. I am just tired of Grunherz's lies and fabrications he has to use when attempting to make up for content. I thought it a funny way to say that I was not responding to him in the forum but would still play with him in the MA. Nice of you to come to his defence though. Seems he has a few willing to do just that and I suppose that is normal act. I understand it as folk leaning toward the underdog and I can live with that. I felt pity for him once too.. haha
The end.
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Originally posted by TheDudeDVant
..... To me, even if we were attacked under Clinton's watch, wanna take a gander on who I would hold ultimatly responsible? Clinton, absolutly.......
News flash........................ ........we we're
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Thanks for the invite, but I have been doing just that since AW.. lol
Actually, iirc you played FR while I played RR, so no.....you havent been doing just that since AW :) And since I dont recall seeing you in the MA on my 6....you havent been doing that here either :)
What you tryed to do here Kappa is to force an admission for something that no one knows. At least, none of us know. You so desparartely want Bush to be to blame. The only people who do know are the ones who were in the room with the President when he got the memo and I dont think that would include anyone on these boards.
I'm not jumping to Grun's defense here, I am hauling up the BS flag on YOUR posts. No one in America could have imagined the type of terrorist attack that occured on that fateful day. No one in America took AQ and OBL seriously. No where in that memo does it specify that an attack is imminent, nor does it give what type of attack it might be, or where. The memo just states that OBL is determined to make an attack inside the USA. There is no information in that memo that would allow for positive action to take place that would lead to avoiding the attacks on 9/11.
Otoh, during the Clinton administration they could have killed OBL on at least 3 different occasions. Predator drones found him at least 3 different times, yet the Clinton admin declined to do anything about him. Intelligence services had their budgets slashed during the Clinton era. With better intel before 9/11 the attacks might have been prevented.
Dont get me wrong here, I am not blaming Clinton for 9/11. Imo the blame for 9/11 belongs on the perpetrators shoulders.
Could 9/11 have been prevented? Yes....IF there had been better intell and IF there had been better communication between intelligence services. When it comes to terrorists America has a history of underestimating the enemy and that is a deadly mistake and one I am sure we wont make again.
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To me, even if we were attacked under Clinton's watch, wanna take a gander on who I would hold ultimatly responsible? Clinton, absolutly. 9/11 is/was larger than party lines..
Ever hear of the USS Cole or the 2 Embassies in Africa that were attacked?
USS Cole incident, an American warship attacked while in a port, 37 dead American sailors that is an act of war. 2 embassies in Africa attacked, again, acts of war......all 3 incidents happened while Clinton was on watch. Clinton actually had at least 3 opportunities to kill OBL and did nothing.
Maybe you should be holding Clinton responsible for 9/11 since he could have killed OBL years before 9/11 happened.
Pointing the finger after the fact does absolutely nothing to bring back those 3000 dead Americans.
What I wanted in this thread? I wanted to see if there were any gungho Bush supporters here with any guts.. That could freely admit what our POTUS did after the memo which was nothing.
You dont know that Bush did *nothing* anymore than I do. Towards the end of that memo it states that there are 70 investigations going on. If Bush said lets keep those investigations going and add some resources to help them along. That would be *something*. Did Bush say anything about that? I don't know, and niether do you. Did Bush say something like.....AQ is no threat, lets move on to more important business? I dont know and again, niether do you :)
You are assuming that Bush did nothing whatsoever. You have no proof one way or the other, no one does. If he did in fact do *something* (no matter how small or large) it obviously wasnt enough to prevent the attacks.
*edit* for spelling
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CLAIM: "The threat reporting that we received in the Spring and Summer of 2001 was not specific as to...manner of attack."
FACT: ABC News reported, Bush Administration "officials acknowledged that U.S. intelligence officials informed President Bush weeks before the Sept. 11 attacks that bin Laden's terrorist network might try to hijack American planes." Dateline NBC reported that on August 6, 2001, the President personally "received a one-and-a-half page briefing advising him that Osama bin Laden was capable of a major strike against the US, and that the plot could include the hijacking of an American airplane." Rice herself actually admitted this herself, saying the Aug. 6 briefing the President received said "terrorists might attempt to hijack a U.S. aircraft." [Sources: ABC News, 5/16/02; NBC, 9/10/02]
CLAIM: "When threat reporting increased during the Spring and Summer of 2001, we moved the U.S. Government at all levels to a high state of alert and activity."
FACT: Documents indicate that before Sept. 11, 2001, the Bush Administration "did not give terrorism top billing in their strategic plans for the Justice Department, which includes the FBI." Gen. Henry H. Shelton, chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff until Oct. 1, 2001, said during the summer, terrorism had moved "farther to the back burner" and recounted how the Bush Administration's top two Pentagon appointees, Donald Rumsfeld and Paul Wolfowitz, "shut down" a plan to weaken the Taliban. Similarly, Gen. Don Kerrick, who served in the Bush White House, sent a memo to the new Administration saying "We are going to be struck again" by al Qaeda, but he never heard back. He said terrorism was not "above the waterline. They were gambling nothing would happen." [Sources: Washington Post, 3/22/04; LA Times, 3/30/04]
CLAIM: "We increased funding for counterterrorism activities across several agencies.
FACT: Upon taking office, the 2002 Bush budget proposed to slash more than half a billion dollars out of funding for counterterrorism at the Justice Department. In preparing the 2003 budget, the New York Times reported that the Bush White House "did not endorse F.B.I. requests for $58 million for 149 new counterterrorism field agents, 200 intelligence analysts and 54 additional translators" and "proposed a $65 million cut for the program that gives state and local counterterrorism grants." Newsweek noted the Administration "vetoed a request to divert $800 million from missile defense into counterterrorism." [Sources: 2001 vs. 2002 Budget Analysis; NY Times, 2/28/02; Newsweek, 5/27/02]
CLAIM: "We decided immediately to continue pursuing the Clinton Administration's covert action authorities and other efforts to fight the network."
FACT: Newsweek reported that "In the months before 9/11, the U.S. Justice Department curtailed a highly classified program called 'Catcher's Mitt' to monitor al-Qaida suspects in the United States." Additionally, AP reported "though Predator drones spotted Osama bin Laden as many as three times in late 2000, the Bush administration did not fly the unmanned planes over Afghanistan during its first eight months," thus terminating the reconnaissance missions started during the Clinton Administration. [Sources: Newsweek, 3/21/04; AP, 6/25/03]
I see. Instead of this administration documenting and revealing unto to the world steps taken after the Aug 6 memo, the administration down plays the memo and says the memo was 'historical information' and was not considered a 'warning'.
It is time for the president to drop his political posture and reassure the country that his first and foremost concern is not his re-election but the safety of Americans at home and abroad. Instead of passively noting that it is the job of the 9/11 commission to figure out whether anything could or should have been done differently, he must demonstrate that he is asking those questions of himself. Instead of preparing — as the administration seems to be preparing — to blame the C.I.A. and F.B.I. for everything that went wrong, he needs to ask whether the structure of the Bush White House itself is part of the problem.
Perhaps no other administration would have responded differently to the skimpy document Mr. Bush received in August 2001. But most other presidents did not limit critical briefing papers to little more than a page, give political advisers such a prominent place in the White House and so dramatically restrict the number of policy makers who had access to the Oval Office. All of Mr. Bush's recent predecessors had at least one of those flaws, but no one else had them all. http://foi.missouri.edu/classdeclass/silentprez.html
I dunno.. I have looked really hard to find some sort of policy shift or change that occured after the memo in question. I have thus far been unable to find that change. I suppose it to be much easier to sit back and believe nothing more could or by all reasonable accounts should have been done..
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Found some good humor though..
Really what happened to the Aug. 6 Memo:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v299/thedudeDVant/Aug6PDB.jpg)
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TheDudeDVant-
i am determined to hack into your pc.
what are you going to do?
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Originally posted by vorticon
TheDudeDVant-
i am determined to hack into your pc.
what are you going to do?
I've already done it. You cant get to my pc here. Besides, few would know where 'here' is.. 8)