Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Fruda on September 10, 2004, 06:55:48 PM
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Just as the topic said, the GV's in AHII have become far too strong. Just 10 minutes ago, I was flying my P-47D25 to get some Panzers near a field.
So, I found one, began to dive, and unloaded all three bombs on it. BAM --- nothing happened to the Panzer. In real life, the Panzer would've been badly damaged at that distance (about 200 feet from the blasts).
Then, I circle, come back, and unload 200 rounds of 50cal shots directly into the front of it. NOTHING HAPPENED. I don't think they even penetrated the armor (yes, about 64% of the shots hit, as there were many flashes on the Panzer). In real life, P-47's were used to strafe Panzers very low to the ground, and about that many shots would destroy one.
And about 15 minutes before that, I was flying my P-38 by an enemy field. I spotted an M-16MGMC, so I went for it with all my guns. About 20 20mm shots hit it, and around 150 50cals did as well. I only barely damaged it, and my P-38's wings were ripped off by the M-16's 50cal turret.
This isn't how it should be. You shouldn't have to call on the entire USAAF to destroy a group of 3 Panzers, but you do in AHII. Hell, even rockets bounce off.
This is a serious problem that needs to be fixed.
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You'd be surprised how ineffective aircraft were against tanks in "real life".
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Maybe so Kweassa, but what he is saying is correct. I hardly think an M-16 could stand up to a good straffing from .50 cals, let alone 20 mm cannon. Yet, I have seen the same thing in my experience. Or take for example diving straight down on an Osti...if you haven't noticed, they are open on top. Any shots going through the top are hitting crew and sensitive equipment, yet they almost never seem to loose their turret from such an attack.
In AH1 I could get mobility kills and real kill with pretty good regularity. A hundred 20 mm or so in the rear of a Panzer meant the engine was bye bye (as it should) However, not I make the same pass @ 300 + MPH, do nothing to the Panzer and get a pilot wound (or some other incredible damage) from the pintle gun.
No, GVs are to resistant to damage from AC, IMO.
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From the military footage I've seen, a P-47 was hell for Panzers. In AHII? A Panzer is hell for a P-47.
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Military footages are for PR purposes. They are outright exaggerated, and inaccurate.
There is a reason why most of the major air powers of WW2 struggled to develop airbourne anti-tank platforms.You will realize these are all planes armed with one or two specialized anti-tank cannons ranging from 37mm to even 75mms in some case.
In the first place, lobbing bombs onto such a small, mobile target was itself was an extremely difficult task. Not to mention that the accuracy of the rockets were like 5 rockets on target for every 200 fired.
50cals? Don't even start on that.
Since lobbed ordnance was extremely unlikely to directly hit a target, and standard HMGs or cannons were vastly ineffective, the air powers equipped their planes with powerful AP cannons that can readily penetrate tank armour.
The Hurricane Mk.IId with the VickerS 40mms, the Ju87G with 37mms, the IL-2 with 23mm AP cannons etc etc.. these are all slow and vulnerable planes, and yet, they were the best planes at destroying tanks.
With a dive angle of more than 30 degrees I can explode a Panzer with a Hurricane or a IL-2 by penetrating the top armour. With a lesser angle I can render them useless by knocking out turrets and/or the engine, tracks, etc. A single 100lbs bomb, if it lands on the Panzer, will destroy it.
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Originally posted by Kweassa
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The Hurricane Mk.IId with the VickerS 40mms, the Ju87G with 37mms, the IL-2 with 23mm AP cannons etc etc.. these are all slow and vulnerable planes, and yet, they were the best planes at destroying tanks.
With a dive angle of more than 30 degrees I can explode a Panzer with a Hurricane or a IL-2 by penetrating the top armour. With a lesser angle I can render them useless by knocking out turrets and/or the engine, tracks, etc. A single 100lbs bomb, if it lands on the Panzer, will destroy it.
I haven't seen these kinds of results. Lord knows, I've tried. I can't even count how many times a couple of us in IL2's have emptied guns into the rear of a Panzer, from a dive, and at best got him smoking. It usually requires a hit from a friendly panzer to finish it off.
Sturmi, Hurri IID, Yak-9T all need an ammo load-out of armor piercing instead of HE.
-DoK
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Just think the GV damage model is still hosed.
Still get AP rounds bouncing off M3's at Tiger seems the most inexplicable, if it doesn't die with 1st lot of ord dropped on it, nothing short of a nuke will take it down. Yet I have seen M3's, M16's and Ostys kill a Tiger.
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Hurri-2D and IL-2 work fine against GVs.. you can knock out a Tigers turret with one strafing pass if you come in at the right angle.
The Yak-9T shouldn't work well against GVs, it was not used as a "tank-buster" in real life, so the 37mm is loaded with HE, not AP.
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9-01-04 to present ( planes augering into trees near tnaks likely)
The Il-2 has 881 kills and has been killed 190 times against the Panzer IV H
The Il-2 has 11 kills and has been killed 27 times against the Tiger I.
The Il-2 has 285 kills and has been killed 268 times against the Ostwind.
The Hurricane IID has 25 kills and has been killed 54 times against the Panzer IV H.
The Hurricane IID has 0 kills and has been killed 7 times against the Tiger I.
The Hurricane IID has 5 kills and has been killed 34 times against the Ostwind.
The Ju 87D-3 has 19 kills and has been killed 14 times against the Panzer IV H.
The Ju 87D-3 has 4 kills and has been killed 4 times against the Tiger I.
The Ju 87D-3 has 11 kills and has been killed 26 times against the Ostwind.
The P-38L has 234 kills and has been killed 289 times against the Panzer IV H.
The P-38L has 13 kills and has been killed 38 times against the Tiger I.
The P-38L has 193 kills and has been killed 676 times against the Ostwind.
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Originally posted by Zanth
9-01-04 to present ( planes augering into trees near tnaks likely)
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Well these numbers are misleading. Probably half of my tank kills only came when a Panzer came along and applied the kill shot. Usually I was already RTB out of ammo. It just happened that I had done enough damage that the host game me the kill, even though the panzer was completely combat-ready until a friendly Panzer came on the scene.
The Sturmi's better ratio is probably a reflection of the higher ammo load. It can put hits into a lot of vehicles and then gather the kill when someone else puts in the kill shot.
Sure would be nice is we had a panzer target offline to try this with. With the vagaries of the host ("rubber tank rounds") its pretty hard to know what "should work." I have yet to see anyone KO a panzer in "one pass" with anything short of mutliple 1000 pounders.
-DoK
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I know that the Yak-9T isn't for GV-busting purposes (that's why I use P-47's and Il-2's).
Even when I use the GV-busting Hurricane 2D, I rarely destroy Panzers. I *sometimes* get them smoking.
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Originally posted by Fruda
Then, I circle, come back, and unload 200 rounds of 50cal shots directly into the front of it. NOTHING HAPPENED. I don't think they even penetrated the armor (yes, about 64% of the shots hit, as there were many flashes on the Panzer). In real life, P-47's were used to strafe Panzers very low to the ground, and about that many shots would destroy one.
How will a .50 bullet penetrate more than it can ?
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Originally posted by Fruda
I know that the Yak-9T isn't for GV-busting purposes (that's why I use P-47's and Il-2's).
Even when I use the GV-busting Hurricane 2D, I rarely destroy Panzers. I *sometimes* get them smoking.
Yeah ... I'd forgotten the 9T isn't rigged for tank-busting.
But .50 cal's should shred an M16 as well as the turret of an Osti (not to mention its occupants since it's open-topped).
20mm cannon probably shouldn't kill a PzIV, but it should stand a good chance of breaking a track on head-on and tail-on shots and at least immobilizing the vehicle. Likewise for a rocket hit on the tracks. And if you immobilize a GV far enough from base, that's as good as a kill - right now this seems to be completely missing.
Pz IV's (as I recall ... it's been a while) weren't that well armored from above or behind. It was, afterall, a design that went into service almost from the start of the war. A 40mm hit on the rear quarter or from above from close-in should smoke the engine compartment with some degree of certainty (i.e. not every time, but within 2 or 3 decent passes). At which point its a matter of time before the fire spreads and the vehicle explodes - in most cases, the crew would bail out - in AH2, obviously they won't. A hit on the top of the turret should go through and render a kill.
Even near misses from heavy bombs (500 lbs and above) should affect the crew inside, even if the vehicle itself survived. Maybe a close enough hit from a big bomb results in a "pilot wound."
So, can we maybe have the compromise I've kind of outlined above?
- .50 cal and above can KO M16's and Ostie turrets reliably.
- Cannon below 40mm and rockets have a decent chance to knock out GV tracks and immobilize the vehicle.
- 40mm cannon hits on the rear or rear deck of a GV has a decent chance of killing the engine and starting a fire.
- 40mm cannon hits on a tank's turret top has a decent chance of getting an immediate kill.
- Near misses by heavy ord (500# and up) have a decent chance of causing a "pilot wound" to a GV.
This way you won't have a bunch of Rudel reincarnates, but GV's won't be able to operate with impunity either. If they can sneak into a base and camp, well so be it. But at least they have to take some real risk in doing so. And a coordinated GV and air attack will still be plenty effective. GV-only defense of a base will be a losing proposition if the attackers have Hurri IID's.
-DoK
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In real life, P-47's were used to strafe Panzers very low to the ground, and about that many shots would destroy one.
How? By bouncing .50s to hit under the tank? :D
Here's a famous read:
Tankbusters (http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk/tankbusters.htm)
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I've notice this too with the pnzr, but I think it's much more realistic this way. I almost felt guilty how easy it was to kill them before, just strafing them. However as mentioned before the flak is way to difficult to kill, same with the m16. I've stop keeping count of the number of times I've dived in on a flack with an ill-2, hit the turret and only see him smk and still be able to use his turret to fire back. I've also seen 1000lb bombs drop near by a pnzr and not have any effect. I thought the concussion alone from these bombs landing close by could flip a vehicle over. (flipping vehicles over using concussion from bombs would be a cool feature for the game)... oh... and don't get me started on vehicles that use bomb/bullet proof trees....
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The most unreal aspect of the whole GV vs aircraft battle is that the gunner on the GV can man his upper gun without exposing himself anymore than if he hid inside.
How many soldiers had the courage to fire their 7.9 mm peashooter back at a plane strafing them with multiple cannons?
Another big advantage GVs have is that many pilots use very poor technique attacking them.
MRPLUTO
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Dok.. I know you have a super secret identity you use in AH for some reason... but if you want to bust GVs with me in a IL-2 or Hurri-2D (or even a Hurri2C for that matter), you are welcome to.
It isn't that GVs are "to hard" now.. they were just much to soft before.
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Originally posted by Urchin
Dok.. I know you have a super secret identity you use in AH for some reason... but if you want to bust GVs with me in a IL-2 or Hurri-2D (or even a Hurri2C for that matter), you are welcome to.
It isn't that GVs are "to hard" now.. they were just much to soft before.
OK ... I'll look for you. And, yeah, I guess the Hurri IID does in fact have AP ammo ... I just tooled around offline and saw there was no burst damage when shooting field guns.
The reason for the cloaked ID is simple ... if I fly as myself I get bombarded with questions about "when the next scenario is" or people make a big huge deal about shooting me down. And I don't need either of the hassles. The handle I'm flying under isn't that hard to figure out ... when you see it you'll slap your forehead because it's just so obvious. And if you ask me if I'm me online I won't lie about it - its just easier to keep a low profile.
Maybe after Rangoon when everyone figures it out I'll have to switch, but for now I like the quiet.
-DoK
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Ive straffed over 10 turrets in one sortie with an Il2 before. Taken 3 he's from a flak and lived, and nose dived from 100ft with wing blown off and walked away. Those dam rose bushes near the farm house are laced with nitro i guess because they cause a complete vaporization of my plane if i clip a wing on one.
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So, the obvious question is, What is the correct angle to attack from?
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Just a word on the Tigers.
the following is a direct quote of an eyewitness acount from Bill Mauldin's Book "Up Front"
(Bill Mauldin was the cartoonist from stars and Stripes that tid Willie and Joe)
"Four American tank destroyers crossed the canal and bounced Armor peircing shells off the turret of a Tiger untill it turned its massive gun around and disintegrated them with 5 shells"
Tank destroyers I beleive had slightly stronger guns then even the most uber aircraft
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Originally posted by lasersailor184
So, the obvious question is, What is the correct angle to attack from?
Heh if Im the one in the tank.
AN angle seems to be the correct angle LOL
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So, the obvious question is, What is the correct angle to attack from?
Since the armour has been toughened up(twice actually) 50cals and 20mms are pretty much ineffective at any angle under 30~40 degrees.
Ofcourse, since usually there's like 5~6 aircraft spraying their entire ammo load when there's a single Panzer around, eventually all the 20mms and 50cals landed would knock out the engine, or detrack a Panzer. But compared to what it used to be, one may say that the tanks are pretty much safe from 30cals~20mms.
Empirically, it seems to take continued strafing of over 50 degrees angle, hitting on the top armour of a Panzer, to disable it. Anything less will most usually bounce.
In the case of the 23mms on the IL-2, it will destroy a Panzer if it dives down at 45+ angle and lands consecutive cannon hits at the roof top armour. It will disable/damage the Panzer at any angle, as long as it is not the front armour.
Same with the 40mms on the Hurri2D. High-angle roof top hits will kill a Panzer, and most other low angle shots will disable a Panzer as long as it is not facing the frontal armour.
Tigers are pretty much safe from everything except direct bomb hits. An IL-2 might detrack it or damage the engine if it continues to strafe it from the side or behind, but Hurri2D 40mms are pretty much ineffective at any angle.
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Hmm -
So an M3 killing an Osty turret shouldn't be possible, or M16 killing Tigers.
WRONG.
The GV damage model is still hosed, was in AH1, it's worse in AH2.
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Originally posted by Kev367th
Hmm -
So an M3 killing an Osty turret shouldn't be possible, or M16 killing Tigers.
WRONG.
The GV damage model is still hosed, was in AH1, it's worse in AH2.
Actually with the case of the osty I beleive the idea is in killing all the gunners not just disabling the gun.
Thus it is possible for an m3 to knock out the main gun on an osti.
FPs on the other hand should be able to do little more then take out a track and MAYBE kill the engine(depending on angle)
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So should I come in from behind or from the side?
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Coming in from behind, is always more effective than the sides.
top > rear > side > front
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I thin kthat if the gv is manning an exposed gun, the body of the gunner should be a damage item (and if it is the "pilot" manning the gun it should be a kill).
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Well lets see....yesterday I had 2 direct hits panzer on panzer with 2 ricochets<--S?.....another friendly panzer had 3- 4 hits....an IL2 dropped all of it's bombs right on the guy and 2-3 other planes were straffing it with their cannons.
He started smoking about then. After 2 more direct hits each from me and the friendly panzer he still was shooting at me. Finally the IL2 got him with cannons. This happens more and more....the thing that Irks me is that it never happens that I can take that kind of abuse in a panzer,M-16 or osti.....la-7 with baby bombs can blow me up first pass or a spit shoots his cannons and my turrent's dead, engines dead....next pass I'm dead. Sure takes all the fun out of it.
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All I'm saying is that GV's are far too strong these days.
a 250kg bomb should seriosly damage a Panzer 4 when it's dropped about 30 yards from it.
In AHII, when you miss the Panzer 4 with that size bomb, if you just miss it by TEN yards, it barely scratches it. I've had this terrible experience at least a dozen times over with my P-47 runs.
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no offence fruda, but i can kill one or maybe even two tanks with a single 500lb bomb on a spitV.
jusst need to aim well :p
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I know that you can kill any GV with a 500-pounder. I'm saying that you have to aim too well to even damage it.
Like I said, a bomb dropped 20 yards away from a Panzer will hardly scratch it. That's a huge problem, since you can't always hit the vehicles directly.
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Like I said, a bomb dropped 20 yards away from a Panzer will hardly scratch it. That's a huge problem, since you can't always hit the vehicles directly.
Nope.
This was all discussed before. The "blast effect" is not as strong as you may think.
Rather, were it in real life, the holes dug around the tank would be more troublesome than the damage itself(which is pretty much non-existant).
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Originally posted by Fruda
Like I said, a bomb dropped 20 yards away from a Panzer will hardly scratch it. That's a huge problem, since you can't always hit the vehicles directly.
Here some excerpts from article about bomb effectiveness against tanks (from russian military history forum):
fragmentation bombs <= 50kg damages light tanks within 2-4 meters raduis, medium and heavy tanks only with direct hit;
high-explosive bombs:
50kg,100kg - light tanks within 3-5 meters, medium tanks within 2-3m, heavy - direct hit;
>100kg - destroy medium and heavy tanks within crater radius (~20m for 1000kg)
quote:
"In most cases actions of aircrafts on tanks with fragmentation and high-explosive bombs reach moral influence, temporary disorganization of fighting orders of tanks, defeat of supporting infantry, destruction of the rears, and repair bases, and also disorder of control owing to damage radio stations. The fighting equipment, especially heavy and medium tanks, suffers insignificant small losses."
(sorry for my english)
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If there was just (a) a higher chance of knocking off a track with cannons/bombs and (b) some chance of a "pilot wound" with heavy ord (500+ pounds) from near misses, then the problem is more or less solved. Right now the only way to stop a tank is to kill it. When in fact the tracks were one of the weak points, and a heavy bomb blast would certainly affect the crew. Neither of these aspects seem to be represented.
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No, Dok, it isn't.
It outright comes down to how accurately one can lob his ordnance, and what kind of plane he uses for his job. Many people still have gripes on GV to GV DM issues, but at least considering air-to-ground aspect the current DM is more or less satisfactory.
As much as you would consider that some of the real life issues are in favor of the GVs(such as crews being "shell-shocked" or disoriented, or ground being paved by near misses), about the same amount of favor applies to the aircraft as well - heavily armed fighter-bombers lobbing ord at extremely low alts(which, was considered extremely dangerous), or suicidal mentality in strafing GVs at extremely dangerous angles, which no real-life pilot would attempt. I'd call it even.
Thus, if you want to destroy tanks, you would want to use;
1) properly armed planes - IL-2 or Hurri3D
2) planes with extremely powerful ordnance, such as the Ju87D with the 1800kg bomb
3) or plane fighter-bombers which require more or less direct hit on the GV itself to destroy it.
Don't expect to lob bombs somewhere near the GV and think, "hey, wasn't that close enough?". If the GV's still alive, clearly you've missed.
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Originally posted by Fruda
Then, I circle, come back, and unload 200 rounds of 50cal shots directly into the front of it. NOTHING HAPPENED. I don't think they even penetrated the armor
2 thing things:
1. You're using .50 cals
2. You're shooting the front
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I'm not suggesting "country mile" radius kills.
But right now one panzer can more or less pork gameplay for half a dozen people trying to clear him from the base ... even with the proper planes and ord. Panzers take and need to air cover - which is insane. And Ostie turrets and M16's are incredibly well armored for open-topped targets.
So, I'm saying: "OK, if you can get the Panzer on the tarmac, you deserve to be able to create havoc ... but lets give the planes some kind of chance of stopping you before then." Note I said "stopping" ... not killing. A panzer within "crater range" of a big bomb can lose a track ... it ain't dead, but it ain't moving either. If the panzer got close enough to lob shells - well then it needs to be dealt with. Otherwise, well, geee ... you took a chance driving out in the open without aircover and you lost.
Open-topped vehicles should be very vulnerable to .50 cal and above. And 20mm cannons and above should be punishing to these.
It's a balance thing ... GV's are just too free to roam in the face of a lot of highly potent air power.
-DoK
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But right now one panzer can more or less pork gameplay for half a dozen people trying to clear him from the base ... even with the proper planes and ord. Panzers take and need to air cover - which is insane. And Ostie turrets and M16's are incredibly well armored for open-topped targets.
How's that porking gameplay?
GVs may have started as a side-show stunt in AH, but they are now an important part of overall gameplay in the fact that when a certain side has access to a base via spawns, the defense will have to divide its numbers into good proportions in A2A cover, A2G strike aircraft, and defensive GVs.
So, I'm saying: "OK, if you can get the Panzer on the tarmac, you deserve to be able to create havoc ... but lets give the planes some kind of chance of stopping you before then." Note I said "stopping" ... not killing. A panzer within "crater range" of a big bomb can lose a track ... it ain't dead, but it ain't moving either. If the panzer got close enough to lob shells - well then it needs to be dealt with. Otherwise, well, geee ... you took a chance driving out in the open without aircover and you lost.
A Panzer near or inside an enemy base that disrupts air ops. merely means the defense was that careless in stopping it. It's what GVs are there for. Town busting, capturing, and field suppressing.
And as discussed in the thread, Panzers are extremely easy to disable/destroy with IL-2s. The IL-2 was THE most successful tank buster in entire WW2 history, and the same here in AH2.
If you can't stop Panzers in the duration of their 10~20 minute drive from spawn to the base, then you have issues. Either you are using the wrong aircraft, or perhaps you're accuracy in lobbing ord is not as high as you think.
If halting them is the purpose, with a single full-loaded IL-2 I can stop at least 5~6 Panzers from advancing by killing their turret and/or engine. With the ordnance I can get about 3, and with guns alone I can stop more than 3~4.
Tigers ofcourse, are very resilient against almost everything except another tank or direct bomb hits, but that's why people pay 50 points for it. Besides, if you really want to kill Tigers with a precision drop, you can always use the 1800kg Moab on the Ju87.
M-16s and Osties are tough to get rid of in the fact that they are what they are - A2A vehicles. They're supposed to be dangerous for planes that try to strafe them.
Besides, how many nose-armed 50cal planes do you see in the game? Most of them are wing-armed, and you'd be surprised at the incredible inefficiency of such armament style when it comes down to strafing targets with precision.
Concentrated strafing from high angle dives usually very easily knocks out M-16 and Ostwind guns. Except, at least according to my own experience, nobody lands that many shots in such a short time unless he strafes during the entire duration of the dive while in a straight line. Usually when somebody tries that, he becomes toast.
So in dealing with A2A vehicles it comes down to the same tactics as attacking bombers. Coordination of multiple aircraft.
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It all comes down to basic tactics and equipment one side is using. Tankbusters deal with the tanks, and friendly tanks deal with A2A vehicles. This is the golden rule of tactical support in stopping enemy GV advance.
Upping a fighter plane that has a few bombs strapped around it doesn't make it a Tankbuster. If you want to kill and stop tanks and A2A vehicles, then use the right planes and right tactics. In any case using a normal fighter bomber, is always a poor choice.
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I should have said that I also hit it from behind, which I did.
Front, behind, all sides with 50cals, nothing happens (it might begin to smoke --- MIGHT).
Even with a Hurricane Mk. IID's twin 40mm's, I can hardly do anything to Panzers. 40mm... COME ON.
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LOL if you think its easy to get a GV to then onto an enemy base then you obviously havent spent alot of time in GVs OR have yet to have mastered the art of killing/disabling them from the air.
I'd say maybe one in ten time I up in a GV and head to an enemy base I actually make it to within firing range let alone onto the base itself.
And it gets even tougher ig thre are Gvs defending.
Originally posted by DoKGonZo
I'm not suggesting "country mile" radius kills.
But right now one panzer can more or less pork gameplay for half a dozen people trying to clear him from the base ... even with the proper planes and ord. Panzers take and need to air cover - which is insane. And Ostie turrets and M16's are incredibly well armored for open-topped targets.
So, I'm saying: "OK, if you can get the Panzer on the tarmac, you deserve to be able to create havoc ... but lets give the planes some kind of chance of stopping you before then." Note I said "stopping" ... not killing. A panzer within "crater range" of a big bomb can lose a track ... it ain't dead, but it ain't moving either. If the panzer got close enough to lob shells - well then it needs to be dealt with. Otherwise, well, geee ... you took a chance driving out in the open without aircover and you lost.
Open-topped vehicles should be very vulnerable to .50 cal and above. And 20mm cannons and above should be punishing to these.
It's a balance thing ... GV's are just too free to roam in the face of a lot of highly potent air power.
-DoK
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Front, behind, all sides with 50cals, nothing happens (it might begin to smoke --- MIGHT).
That's how it should be.
The Panzer we have is a Pz.Kpfw.IV/Ausf.E. Its frontal armour is 50mms thick. Sides are 30mms, and rear is 20mms. The weakest is the roof-top which is 12mms thick.
According to gun expert Tony Williams, even the IL-2 VYa cannon penetrates only 30mms at optimum 100meters distance. At 400meters the penetration drops down to 25mm. There's no chance of it penetrating the frontal armour at all, and only under optimum conditions of very close distances will it hurt a Panzer from the side. This is exactly how it is in AH2.
The Hurricane's Vickers S 40mms are quoted at 50~55mm penetration. Striking angle or distance is unspecified, but it was most probably at an optimum angle of almost direct hit at distances within 200meters. Not to mention that the Vicker S is an inaccurare, slow to fire cannon.
If the distance grows further than that, depending on the approach angle the penetration value can easily drop down 1/3rds or even upto half.
Thus, like mentioned again and again, you need to use the right weapons with right procedures.
Aiming the rooftop at a high-angle strike at speeds over 250mph (which is the most dangerous method of them all) with IL-2 23mms or Hurri2D 40mms can explode the Panzer. Coming in to aim the rear of the tank, is the most common and standard procedure to halt the Panzers.
Using .50s, is simply using the wrong weapon. Like Tony mentions,
"Put simply, the heavy machine guns and 20 mm cannon were capable of hitting the tanks easily enough, but insufficiently powerful to damage them, except occasionally by chance."
If it "might" begin to smoke - there's the "occasionally by chance" mentioned.
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Originally posted by Kweassa
How's that porking gameplay?
GVs may have started as a side-show stunt in AH, but they are now an important part of overall gameplay in the fact that when a certain side has access to a base via spawns, the defense will have to divide its numbers into good proportions in A2A cover, A2G strike aircraft, and defensive GVs.
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And as discussed in the thread, Panzers are extremely easy to disable/destroy with IL-2s. The IL-2 was THE most successful tank buster in entire WW2 history, and the same here in AH2.
If you can't stop Panzers in the duration of their 10~20 minute drive from spawn to the base, then you have issues. Either you are using the wrong aircraft, or perhaps you're accuracy in lobbing ord is not as high as you think.
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It is obvious from what people are posting here that very, very, very few people have found the sweet spot for killing even a single tank solo with an IL2. So just waving your hand and saying "it is so" won't make it. I have seen lone Panzers sit out in the open being strafed by IL2's and 110G's for 5 minutes solid and not even smoke. And these are not dweebs in the planes.
I have also seen Osties parade in front of a 37mm field gun, take 20 or more turret hits, and still be able to fire.
Something is wrong. Period.
As for porking gameplay, due to the potential for easy pork-based kills a Panzer has if it gets close to a base, it must be taken more seriously than the typical pork-n-auger dweeb. And because 3 or 4 people have to stop what they're doing to deal with this - a lone Pz IV out in the open with no air cover - that is an asymetrical situation.
It also reduces gameplay to the mentality of the guy who knows he can drive to an enemy base and be more or less immune to attack. Certainly much less prone to dying that if he flew there. There is so little risk in a Panzer.
It's just messed up.
Besides which, if I really want to diddle with landing a shot between the 3rd and 4th engine grate slots, I'll pllay a different game, thank you. I play AH2 for the best flight model - not to play Panzer Leader. Don't get me wrong, I spent a full decade immersed in Rommel and Guderian ... I love that stuff ... but that's not why I play AH, and I suspect that's not why most people play AH.
-DoK
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It is obvious from what people are posting here that very, very, very few people have found the sweet spot for killing even a single tank solo with an IL2. So just waving your hand and saying "it is so" won't make it.
That goes both ways. Empirical evidence shows that in most cases the VYa 23mms are more than enough. However, your personal experience says otherwise. In this issue I dare say you are wrong.
I have seen lone Panzers sit out in the open being strafed by IL2's and 110G's for 5 minutes solid and not even smoke. And these are not dweebs in the planes.
As much, I've seen Panzers get destroyed the moment they spawn by IL-2s standing by. Two strafing passes and I can stop a Panzer dead in its tracks. And heaven forbid anyboy who claims that I'm an expert on this, or have good gunnery. My average hit percentage A2A is barely 4~5%.
Something is wrong. Period.
Something very well may be. At this point we cannot rule out that its you that may be wrong.
As for porking gameplay, due to the potential for easy pork-based kills a Panzer has if it gets close to a base, it must be taken more seriously than the typical pork-n-auger dweeb. And because 3 or 4 people have to stop what they're doing to deal with this - a lone Pz IV out in the open with no air cover - that is an asymetrical situation.
You're not making any sense again.
Whilst skilled gunners can fire out to very long distances the limited visibility in GVs require them to get close to a field. From the spawn to the field is usually a 5~6 mile stretch of land, often large parts of it very open. An MBT travelling 25mph has to drive often 10~12 minutes if he does so in a straight line. Hills and bumps make it even a longer drive.
If an armoured column approaches, having to stop them IS a part of the gameplay. Your definition of "gameplay" seems to rule out the GV warfare and what it can do inside the MA. For better or worse, attempting an advane to the enemy base without sufficient air cover indeed is a great risk. If you find it so hard to deal with such then it is entirely your own problem.
Just today, our field was overrun with GVs. 3~4 of us took of from that very field, and cleared all enemy GV presence within 20 minutes. We killed the Ostwind that was vulching the base during take-off(granted, it took two take-off attempts to do so, while someone else lobbed a nice bomb onto it in a single pass and blew it up), killed the turrets on the two Panzers that were bombarding the town within minutes, and disabled three more incoming from the spawn point. You can ask the FreeBird squad about this - their armoured assault, which had no air cover, was pretty much a disastrous failure.
It also reduces gameplay to the mentality of the guy who knows he can drive to an enemy base and be more or less immune to attack. Certainly much less prone to dying that if he flew there. There is so little risk in a Panzer.
He's in a tank. He should feel immune to most attacks. Who the hell would want to drive a tank if it was filmsy?
On the other hand, he should fear the tankbusters. And his life expectancy once a tankbuster is nearby is no more than 5 minutes.
It's just messed up.
Nope.
Besides which, if I really want to diddle with landing a shot between the 3rd and 4th engine grate slots, I'll pllay a different game, thank you. I play AH2 for the best flight model - not to play Panzer Leader. Don't get me wrong, I spent a full decade immersed in Rommel and Guderian ... I love that stuff ... but that's not why I play AH, and I suspect that's not why most people play AH.
Like it or not the tanks are here to stay. GV warfare is as much a part of AH as it ever was. If you don't like it then don't play near Panzers - or better yet, go kill nearby VHs, instead of complaining about it.
If your vision of AH and its attack planes are the glorified bomb lobbing planes busting an entire tank column with machine guns blazing, well sorry. That's not how it was in real life, nor how it is in AH.
ps) Here's a tip.
Check your convergence on the IL-2(if you use that plane). Set it to 300yards.
Both IL-2 and Hurri2Ds are wing-armed planes, and only at a certain distance will all the bullets converge at a single point. If somebody starts strafing a Panzer with an IL-2, its safe to assume all of his shots fired further than 500 yards out will fail to penetrate.
A common mistake people make, is they go strafing a GV with long bursts from 1.0k out, and think all their shots landed on the target.
Try observe it with full zoom - you will see most of the shots fired miss and just throw up dust. The rest of the shots give of teensey hit sprites(about 1/4th the size of the normal one), which indicates the round failed to penetrate and bounced off. Only the big white hit sprite indicates that it hit the armour, and did not bounce.
You will soon realize that when people strafe a tank, they only land about 20% of what they claim to have landed. In the cases you saw, I could bet that the IL-2s started firing long bursts from far out. You see all the shots that seem to land around Panzer, and see that its alive and think "something's messed up". Well, it's not.
This is what I do. Approach a Panzer from its 6 O'c, and use full zoom view to observe the target.
Don't fire a single, long tracking burst onto it. Approach at about 30degrees angle, and try hard to keep your plane steady. And then, when you think you have the aiming, fire a long burst when the distance marker is "400". Pull away at the last second, and more often than not you will see immediately that the enemy tank is damaged.
I don't aim for no 'sweet spot'. All I do is just position my self at its rear quarters, and fire at real close distances.
Fire only the cannons. The MGs throw up nothing but dust all around the tank, which obscures your target.
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Kweassa has it spot on right.
As was pointed out in anothe thread, or possably earlier in this one there are few confirmed cases of planes actually killing panzers with bullets alone. And as Someone else pointed out even the IL2 got more hype for this then it deserved.
The vast majority of tanks killed by air were done with bombs, not bullets.
And the best way to take care of a tank is with another tank.
If you dont wiish to go after tanks then dont. Let someone else deal with them. Thats what a ton of other people do.
Furthermore. Getting a tank. or any other GV including a Tiger is no easy task unless your going ot an undefended base and even then you better hope that nobody notices the ase flashing and comes to investigate. Odds are your gonna haveto respawn a bunch of times before you finally make it in IF you make it in at all.
Beleive me. I've spent a great deal of time in GVs. Maybe not as much as alot but still a great deal of time.
And when I actually make it to an enemy base its usually earned and anything but a cakewalk. ESPECIALLY if there is no air support. And by air support I mean air supremacy.
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I took a Yak up against a panzer that was trying to vulch our VH in AH1 once. I hit him in the rear, top and sides at least a dozen times firing ONLY the 37mm before his pintle gun got me in the forehead. I re-upped and completely unloaded the 37mm into him again only taking a few pings from the pintle. There must have been 30-40 hits on him from the 37mm and he wasn't even smoking. Most of these hits were from point blank range (100 meters). I just ignore the GVs any more, they are a distraction to me.
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Originally posted by Edbert MOL
I took a Yak up against a panzer that was trying to vulch our VH in AH1 once. I hit him in the rear, top and sides at least a dozen times firing ONLY the 37mm before his pintle gun got me in the forehead. I re-upped and completely unloaded the 37mm into him again only taking a few pings from the pintle. There must have been 30-40 hits on him from the 37mm and he wasn't even smoking. Most of these hits were from point blank range (100 meters). I just ignore the GVs any more, they are a distraction to me.
Not surprising at all,the yak 37mm is loaded with HE.
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Kweassa, if what I know should work, and what you say does work, actually did seem to work, I wouldn't be in this thread.
I still think the risk-reward is skewed in favor of GV's.
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I still think the risk-reward is skewed in favor of GV's.
Which side you play for? Do you ever use GVs yourself?
I know you don't like to tell others your game ID, so I suggest this. When you see me online, try a Panzer assault with no AA vehicles and air cover at the base I'm operating out of.
I love flying IL-2s. I've recently discovered from Innominate's career stats that my second largest of number of kills in a plane type was in an IL-2 against Panzers. The chances are if there's an armoured assault going on somewhere, I'll be there to break it.
So, get in a Panzer and drive to my base when you see me online, and see if the "risk-reward factor is skewed".
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Originally posted by Kweassa
Which side you play for? Do you ever use GVs yourself? ... I love flying IL-2s. ...
Rook. Yes. So do I.
This is not about my personal score. I'm talking more about what I see going on every night when GV's are in the area.
One big problem is that there's no way to practice this offline. I've read where the Hurri IID flyers in N. Afrika went out on training missions to plink away at burned out Panzers ... just to get the feel for the guns, the attack approach, and where they could penetrate.
-DoK
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I think you should be able to customize your GV with diff rims & tires, put a drop kit in and have different paint jobs.
The GV's are fine...............leave um alone
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Another good example - a huge Rook assault into A38 of the Trinity map. Initial assault caught us Bishops by surprise. The spawn point was less than 5 miles away from the field.
Some 6~7 Panzers were on the way to the field, at least 2~3 already near the field. However, the fatal mistake proved to be that they had no air support at all, and there was only one AA vehicle around.
My first sortie in the IL-2, I was shot down by an Osty I didn't see. Realizing that these 9~10 Panzers were too much for me to handle, I called in my squaddies to support.
A group of 4~5 IL-2s took off from the field, and during the next 4~5 minutes decimated the whole armoured column. The Rook armoured assault did not give up, and sent more vehicles spawning to the field. However, by this time our own GV drivers arrived to A38 and formed a strong defensive line around the field.
The IL-2s kept cutting down their tanks, and slowly but firmly our own tanks pushed them back to their spawn. Only when the Rooks realized that they needed corresponding air support, and sent lots of jabos to A38, did the tides turned.
A huge furball formed, both on the ground and in the air. But in the end, the Bish held A38.
Perfect example of how an independant GV assault without any air support, avails naught.
Another ironical example: right after the battle of A38, our squaddies gathered around and spawned to capture V7 with tanks. Total 7 of us began the attack. Only two enemies were guarding V7 in tanks - they hid themselves well, and knocked us down one by one.
In the end, an organized assult of 3xJu87Ds, 1x IL-2 and 2x Pzr.4, 1xM3 - is what took V7. Two Ju87Ds killed all three VHs at the field, the other Ju87D destroyed the defending GV. The IL2 knocked down field acks, and then the Panzer and the M3 advanced.
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Tanks should be almost immune to plane cannons. loosing a track or damaging the engine is the best you should hope for.
Bombs are another issue. What I think is wrong is that you can drop 250kg of explosives on it's head and it will just sit there in the crater. Not to mention that it should blow the gunners right out of the ostie's turret even if it only lands a few meter away.
another thing I think is wrong is that trees stop bombs from hitting tanks. they explod on the leaf canopy above the GV.
Bozon
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Yeah, I'm beginning to love the Hurri D.
But we need a way to spawn tanks offline and practice.
We also need the Ju87 with the 37mm ap's.
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Well when I am in a GV 80% of the time I am killed right off, Bombs not even close and poof I'm dead. My Osti usually loses it turret with one pass from any plane. Then there are those rear times it seems a Nuke wouldn't even hurt me. GV model is not the greatest and can be very frustrating. So next time I am in a GV I will let you know so will can have an easy GV kill. :)
I think they should eliminate NME GV icons all together. Make it harder to spot them. This way you could use the trees and other things to your advantage. But that's just me.
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I like fly'n the IL-2, it can take a lot of damage, and still stay up in the air.. I espically love it when I'm patrolling for ground targets, and someone sneaks down for an easy cherry pick and they find out that their 2-3 second burst only chiped the paint... :D
I've been thinking about trying out the hurr2d. But have stayed away from it since I don't think it can absorb much damage.