Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: frank3 on September 11, 2004, 05:16:50 AM
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In aces high, we're able to load our trusted Thunderbolt with 6 or 8 .50 machine guns.
My question now, did they, in real life, in fact load the P-47 with 6 machine guns? I can't seem to find any information about the subject.
And if they did, why?
If you load it with 6 guns, you'd better take the P-51 I've heard.
It's logical that in real life, there were more P-47's than P-51's so it would be sensible to load the 6 guns instead of 8 for a better manoeuvrability.
Can anyone supply me with more information about this?
Thanks in advance!
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pilots tried to reduce plane's weight in any way possible.
I've even read some P-47 pilots did not take water for the water injection system to save that weight (they had over boosted thunderbolts so the water injection was less needed).
I guess some, eager to reduce weight, thought 6 guns is enough. I also think that the 425 rpg option was used mainly for strifing.
Bozon
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In May 1944 Lt. Raymond Withers of the 356th Fighter Group got permission from his CO, Captain John Vogt to modify the P47s in his flight into what they called "Superbolts"
The modifications involved that were to lose weight and improve performace were:
-remove 4 of the 8 guns and limit the remaining guns to 200 rounds each, reducing weight considerably.
-removed paint from the leading edge of the wings and tail and polished the rest of the plane which gave 6-8mph more speed.
-Used higher octane fuel to allow for higher manifold pressure and better supercharger performance.
The 4 planes modified were used as high cover for the rest of the squadron and proved their effectiveness on May 19, 1944 when they broke up and scattered a flight of 109s at 35K.
The pilots reported that the Superbolt had not difficulty outclimbing and outmaeuvering the enemy aircraft at that altitude.
So clearly it was done :)
Dan/Slack
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Didn't think the 109 would outclimb a standard P-47 at 35K either.
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wonder if we can make the AH planes lighter by not choosing a skin, or faster by using a polished one :lol
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Originally posted by GScholz
Didn't think the 109 would outclimb a standard P-47 at 35K either.
Don't know. I would imagine it was one of those deals where there was some improvement in performance of the plane and even more improvement in performance of the pilot because he believed it would make a difference.
That confidence stuff is underrated :)
Dan/Slack
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From my sources of information, namely "The Complete Book of Fighters" (Green and Swanborough 1995), the P47 or Thunderbolt, was begun production with 8 x .50s, then in December 1942 the P47G appeared as a minor modified version of the B and C series, but built by Curtiss Wright, rather than Republic (there was no A series). These were available with either 6 or 8 x .50s and additional ammo as standard, no reason is given for the differences. These were built at either Farmingdale or Evansville.
Really makes me wonder why a large fighter like the P47 was armed with .50s in the long run. It would easily be capable of carrying larger (and more capable) weapons such as the HS 20mm, or whatever was going at the time. This would have made it far more capable I believe.
Carrying such a huge lump of engine (2300 hp), it was always destined to be a big aircraft. Everthing has a price though in AC design, the first three important factors being; mass, mass and mass. All concepts for AC are based on airborne mass, so a heavier fighter needs consequent larger landing gear, larger fuel load, larger controls, larger wing spars, this all leads to a multiple effect..thereby making the whole AC heavier by a multiple rather than an addition.
Another important consideration for the P47 is its surface area. Being larger than others (such as the 190), it has a far larger area, which naturally leads the AC to be heavier...there is no way around this, except for the AC to be "skinny" in the fuselage like the 190 which is very narrow, and consequently lighter because of this. This is one reason why aerodynamisits like V type engines..they were quite simply smaller in frontal area, leading to an easier transition for a skinny fuselage.
In surmising this, fat is heavy, skinny is light. A lighter plane needs smaller wings / controls / UC / skin thickness / engine mountings / ad infinitum, for the same performance in any aspect, and can do the same with less horsepower.
It is clear the high altitude performance of the P47 is due to the concerted effort of the engine designer to obtain a positive intake ratio at higher altitudes (by multiple supercharging). We now are verging on the whole reasoning behind gas tubine (jet) engines and their superior high altitude performance.
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Originally posted by rod64
From my sources of information, namely "The Complete Book of Fighters" (Green and Swanborough 1995), the P47 or Thunderbolt, was begun production with 8 x .50s, then in December 1942 the P47G appeared as a minor modified version of the B and C series, but built by Curtiss Wright, rather than Republic (there was no A series). These were available with either 6 or 8 x .50s and additional ammo as standard, no reason is given for the differences. These were built at either Farmingdale or Evansville.
Those Curtiss built P-47Gs demonstrated such poor build quality that the USAAF restricted their use to training units. None saw combat. Their contract was cancelled quickly.
.50 caliber MGs were installed, because that is what the USAAF called for in the specification.
Republic's XP-72 was also built with .50 cal. MGs, but was initially designed for the installation of four 37mm cannon.
My regards,
Widewing
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Republic's XP-72 was also built with .50 cal. MGs, but was initially designed for the installation of four 37mm cannon.
That 4 X 37mm is the dumbest possible armament against fighters.. :)
I'd love to have an XP72 with 6 hispanos though..
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
That 4 X 37mm is the dumbest possible armament against fighters.. :)
I'd love to have an XP72 with 6 hispanos though..
OMG, 6 Hispanos!!:eek:
Zazen
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Originally posted by Zazen13
OMG, 6 Hispanos!!:eek:
Zazen
Can you say
HEAD ON
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I've always been intrigued by the stated intention to fit the XP-72 with four 37mm cannon. These would clearly have to be fitted in the wing, which begs the question of which 37mm were intended. The US 37mm guns actually made - M4, M10 and M9 - were very bulky and could not have fitted within a wing without large bulges covering the breech area and the recoil cylinder. Possibly they had in mind the experimental M37, which was slimmer and could fire at 400 rpm, but I'm not sure if the chronology worked out.
Tony Williams: Military gun and ammunition website (http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk) and Discussion forum (http://forums.delphiforums.com/autogun/messages/)
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Originally posted by Zazen13
OMG, 6 Hispanos!!:eek:
Zazen
Zazen is glad they didnt do that, huge threat to his oswind;)
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The Martin Baker 3 had 6 hispano's with 200 rounds per gun if i remember correctly.
Prototype crashed though and they didnt rebuild it, was a very promising fighter.
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4 37MM thats INSANE:eek:
I WANT IT I WANT IT I WANT IT!
PERK PLANE !:D
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Wouldn't be to practical though, have one burst at once with all guns and find yourself to a complete stop! (like flying against 125 mph winds :) )
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as i was reading about the P47 i found this
The fastest model was the XP-47J, which did not go into production. On August 4, 1944, this plane reached a speed of 504 miles per hour. Production plans were shelved in favor of another P-47 development, the Republic XP-72
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504 mph! That's almost the same speed in kilometers the old crafts used to fly!
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the 500+ mph was achived patially due to the very high service ceiling. drag is lower as high as you go so it's easier - if your turbo system can keep the engine from running out of air that is.
eventually they went for the much simpler P47M untill P72 was complete. The official speed of the M was 470mph without the regular over-boosting used on the field.
http://www.cradleofaviation.org/history/aircraft/p-47/7.html
http://home.att.net/~jbaugher1/p47.html
Bozon
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"Hell ... if I wanted 6 guns, I would fly a P51!" - Frenchy.
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Ah that was your statement! Very true indeed :)