Aces High Bulletin Board
Help and Support Forums => Help and Training => Topic started by: Vudak on September 13, 2004, 12:37:28 AM
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I've been flying the 109's this month, primarily the G2 with only one 20mm cannon.
I am really enjoying the plane, IMO it makes for a more interesting sortie then a Fw190...
I was just wondering if any people who fly the 109s often had any favorite manuevers/merges/tips/tricks that I should start trying to learn?
I met up with Redd and he got me trying a double Immel (not even gonna try to spell that) merge, which seems to work nice as far as not getting shot down right away, although I need to get the timing down to the point where it will bring me about on someone's tail.
Any other merges that work well with this plane? It really is a blast to fly 1v1, I really just wish that I could conclude the fight a bit quicker, as mine usually go one of two ways:
1. I get shot down right away.
2. I get into a deadlock for a long time, finally someone cherry picks one of us.
Also, any tips someone's found have worked well against other planes? I really find I'm having a tough time with Spits and Yaks especially. 38's are tricky too.
How about things I really should stay away from vs. certain planes?
Always eager to learn,
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iv allways like the 109g-2 more then anyother 109 it realy is the best mix in the 109s
the F-4 is on the agile side and the G-6 G10 are on the heavy side G-2 is a nice mix of speed power agilty for the 109s
a good P38 pliot will allways give G 109s a hard time
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heya Vudak,
don't scissor with a F4U in a 109, prob would want to fight in the vertical and fight up, instead of fighting in the horizontal
find the 109G2's corner speed , sustained turn speed and adapt your dogfighting to this. and read up on the speeds at which the other planes you encounter perform best at. When you encounter a certian plane don't try to turn with that plane in that planes best performance range, try to work him into fighting at your 109G2s best range. also find each edge of the flight envelope for the 109G2 as in where does the controls start to mush, where is the edge of the stall, learn to ride the edge of the stall with the sound buzzer blaring constantly.....learn to ride the tunnel ( right before blacking out where the screen shrinks to a small round circle you can see thru)
if you find another plane that performs good in your range determine which one performs the best, then try to figure out ways to overcome this disparity....
I wanted to add. fly agressively, and always believe you are going to win even if you are in a defensive posture/position
alot of flyers will give up this train of thought once someone on their 6 gives them a ping or two, and assume they are beaten......practice telling yourself over and over I am going to win, it really does help in pulling out a victory in them close in knife fights......
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the G2 is really magnificent. If I could hit anything with the cannon I would use it more.
it's a very close match to the spit IX.
Bozon
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Well the 109 is one of the best vertical fighters in the game, so use its climb to your advantage. A favourite move... Hmmm... The rope-a-dope is always fun to do on anything that misjudges my e state and ends up with a surprise.
My advice for the 109 would be to not turn it too much; it has a good instantanious turn rate but looses too much E for sustained turns, so use that with E fighting tactics for a snap shot. Never let your enemy sucker you into committing to turn fight. For the merge HO with the 109, maybe try a gentle dive at about d900 and steepen it closer he gets. When hes about d200 pull up and do a double immelmann and you should be above him and on his six ready to setup an attack. Hope this advice helps.
S!
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Ahh, a fellow 109 fan. The G-2 is a very good airplane, which I enjoy second only to the G-10. The G-2 is much more fun since it is more of a turner, but don’t be afraid to use its raw horsepower to set up a kill or two.
Of course, the strength of the G series 109's are their climbing performance, so the most important maneuver to learn is the Hammer Head turn (or a wingover depending on how well you execute the move). I would practice offline a few times just taking the airplane at different altitudes from level at just a little over 200mph indicated, nose up to the vertical and then kick flaps and rudder (I prefer right since you will experience less roll, use less rudder to the left than the right) and flip around to nose down. I practice this while looking behind me so I can get used to how I will perform it in the MA. This will usually result in a single snapshot which the G-6 and G-10 use to instantly kill, but in the G-2, you are hoping to knock something off the airplane then kill the wounded plane as they try to recover.
There are some cautions to this maneuver; it can get you killed very easily if you don't watch the E state of the other aircraft. The way I employ this trick is to first get the enemy states equalized, then start a long drag race. Once the enemy contact starts to drift backwards to 1.5 or more, start a slow 1-2K fpm climb with a slow turn to the right or left. You want to turn just enough to keep them 1.0 or more away. If they start closing too fast, level off and straighten out for a bit. Once you are certain that you have enough of an Energy advantage to complete the Hammer Head turn mentioned above without the enemy being able to get closer than 600 or so, straighten up into the vertical and flip around. With practice, you will become pretty good at this, and be able to exploit any advantage you gain from this, or even repeat it several times in a row until you get the shot you are looking for. Good luck.
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I'm sorry for not egreeing too much with you Bozon but actually it was not a single time a 109 downed me and my spits V/IX until it was behind me and me engaged with other.
For me if 2 good pilots meets in a merge who has the spits will win for sure.
Turn fighting....and the spits turns better than 109s.
Energy fighting.....and the spits are better E-Fighters.
Speed fighting......maybe the 109s could extends better than spits but....this depends on its pilot and his repositioning tactics.
I'm still waiting for an opposite proof.
This is my opinion.
:p
Bye
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Originally posted by clouds
I'm sorry for not egreeing too much with you Bozon but actually it was not a single time a 109 downed me and my spits V/IX until it was behind me and me engaged with other.
For me if 2 good pilots meets in a merge who has the spits will win for sure.
Turn fighting....and the spits turns better than 109s.
Energy fighting.....and the spits are better E-Fighters.
Speed fighting......maybe the 109s could extends better than spits but....this depends on its pilot and his repositioning tactics.
I'm still waiting for an opposite proof.
This is my opinion.
:p
Bye
Clouds, I know you directed this at Bozon, I wanted to give my opinion..
in turn fighting it will come down to the better pilot who has the knowledge to fly out of plane ( over lapping circles ) of the 2. to where if the 109 pilot uses this he can gain a guns solution / target.
in E-Fighting the 109 will have a better chance as long as the 109 stays in fighting up ( in the vertical) and knows how to bleed his opponent ( the spit IX ) I think it comes down to which is the better skilled pilot, and if both are near same in their respective planes, it will be a near draw with either one coming out the victor.
If the 109 pilot is sucked into a scissors maneuver, it is best for him to evade on the turn out, (where each plane turns away from the other) to extend then re-merge.. Most 109's will get eat alive if they try to scissors with any allied planes for the most part.
Speed...speed is always good for extending / evading if the conditions begin to worsen for the 109....
this is how I view it......
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Thx m8 for your perspective view.
From my point of view and my experience, I've seen a 109 F4 scissoring a Spit V and escaping well but it happened only once that I was joining a 109 of ours during the MALTA SEA (that i was planning for AXIS 1 or 2 years ago in AH1).
I was wonder about the maneuver that spit made (I would not have never made) letting the 109 escaping.
It could be e very good flight lesson to see how do you manage this situation in a real 109 vs Spit engagement.
I think some moves can count much more than 1000 words.
:aok
See you in AH2.....soon or later.
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The 109s in AH2, are one of the planes that received the most dramatic levels of inhibition in its ability to maneuver. Clearly, something has happened to its FM, which other planes do not suffer at the same level.
In AH1, one solid fact the 109 had in maneuvering was that it was responsive and very stable.
It couldn't turn as well as some planes, but maneuvering at extremely low speeds was not too hard. Also, while it wasn't a very good turning plane, it was always decent compared to its contemporaries.
While suffering from torque, still the powerful engine enabled it to chug and hang on through the low-speeds and keep maneuvering. You could really push this plane to the limits. While at normal speeds a P-51 or P-47 might be able to temporarily outmaneuver it thanks to early flap usage, but when the speeds came down low the favor was turned to the 109. It would handily outturn a P-47, and outturn the P-51 with some hard effort.
In AH2, all of this is gone. The stability is down to crap levels. You will get outturned in a sustained, prolonged turn fight against a P-47 in a Bf109G-2, because at lower speeds the Bf109G-2 cannot keep a turn radius tight enough to chase a P-47. Why can't it do that?
For starters, at speeds of over 300mph, the P-47 can use the flaps earlier than the 109. It also deccelerates faster - which considering the two factors, makes it possible for the P-47 to maintain at least a same turn radius with the opposing 109. Experts with better rudder/flap management will often even outturn the 109. Okay - no problems with this part.
What happens when the speed drops under 300, and reaches the border line of 199 and 200mph? Well, according to theory and anecdotes, the 109 should be a plane that outturns the P-47 pretty handily.
However, even when the 109 successfully chops its own speed down to use its own flaps - at least the relative advantages of the P-47 with its flaps should be gone, right? Afterall, the P-47 is a behemoth of a plane.
Well, that's not in AH2. While under 200mph, the P-47 with some 2~3 notches of flaps, can hang at the border of its stall limit speed, and keep pulling a tight turn radius.
In a P-47, with about 2 notches of flaps down, with full throttle - you can start a turn that does not gain or lose alt, with heavy rudder assist, and can pull hard enough so that the speed bleeds down to about 100mph and keep it there. In other words, a very tight turn sacrificing speed, hanging by a thread just above the stall speed.
However, the 109 can't do that. When it drops down to low speeds and uses its own flaps, in 109s, you can't pull the stick with full throttle and initiate a turn hard enough to bleed its own speed down to 100mph. Somewhere near 180mph it loses stability and wobbles.
In a sustained turn fight, the P-47 keeps its nose pointed towards you, and despite the slow speed, it still hangs on to the turn. The 109, can't keep its nose pointed towards the P-47 in the first place.
In other words, 109s are pigs in low speed maneuvering now. So, don't go down to low speed, and don't try any reversals.
I've felt a crushing blow to my ego in the fact that I can't outmaneuver a La-7 even with initial E advantage, in a Bf109G, I've been using for years.
However, in a P-51 or a P-47 which my personal flight time in it is only about 5% of that if the 109, I can easily outmaneuver the same guy in the same La-7 with initial E advantage. No problem - just drop flaps, pull harder than the enemy, dump some E and fire guns.
At least, empirically, in my own opinion, something's wrong. If the 109s are behaving more realistically in AH2, then whatever the cause of its heavy burden during low speed maneuvering, is not present in the P-51 or the P-47.
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It is common opinion (at least among the guys I usually meet) that the allies planes are Overmodelled some more some less but all they are.
I don't know if they are overmodelled if compared with the real ones but surely they are if compared with the axis ones.
In the last 4 years i.e. the 109 G10 have suffered a dramatic reduction of its performances and this is the reason I don't use it more since 4 years.
Actually I feel very good in Spits (it is not so difficult to feel good in those planes) and maybe too much good.
Bye.
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clouds, I am aware of the instabilities the 109 suffers at low speeds (spit 9 developed some too). IMO it's most other planes that suffer too little of this. Some planes don't seem to have any torque at all and don't fear a spin. If it was up to me I'd give all the planes the mossie's new flat spin.
The P47 was a very stable plane, being heavy and with big eliptical wings. That means that it should "mush" into the stall gently and maintain control - not that it could pull G (generate lift) at low speeds. It would be a wallowing pig, but a controlable one. in AHII it does produce a little too much lift when slow. The P51/La7 are even more extreme.
the 109 on the other hand is supposed to be able to fly slower than the jug, but will have to control the torque more (no flying at 100mph stall buzzer yelling and opening full throttle+WEP). In a rolling scissor the jug will give it a run for its money though (and did also in AHI).
Then again, this is just a lot of hand waving and no calculation or real data. You are also free to accuse me with bias since I really like these 2 planes. I trust HTC - if it's broken, they will fix it.
As to the spit9 - the G2 can turn with it down to 190~200 mph not under. Stall fighting the spit is not a good idea, but turning is fine as long as you know the limitations. The G2 can still leave the spit behind if thigs don't work to well.
Bozon
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Hi Bozon,
You are also free to accuse me with bias since I really like these 2 planes.
I honestly don't have any intention to accuse you, I know everyone can have its preferred planes, btw it is also true many guys in H2H said to me they'r convenced AXIS planes are undermodelled this is why only strong pilots (surely advanced to the average) can use AXIS planes at max of their performances, but they'r very few ppl while in the reality expecially 190's was a very modern fighter using lots of interesting devices the others could achieve only after some of the axis planes were captured.
If we could make some comparison with the WarBirds planeset, 190 was one of the better planes of all, why ? Was it only a question about politics or marketing strategy ?.
Bye
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Originally posted by clouds
If we could make some comparison with the WarBirds planeset, 190 was one of the better planes of all, why ? Was it only a question about politics or marketing strategy ?.
you can't compare one game with another. they are probably both wrong, just in different ways... and my feel is that generally HTC's modeling is the best there is.
190 was very dangerous to fly near the stall and so was the P-51. Even if planes had the envelop, lesser than expert pilots would be reluctant to fly 'on the edge' when the risk was high. 109 was reported to be easy to fly near stall and the spit was famed for it so pilots were not afraid to push it.
try dogfighting in the mossie to get the feeling of it. You really do not want to stall this thing so you are very carful not to push it too much.
Bozon
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Hi Bozon,
Obviously when I said "comparison between AH and WB" it didn't means ABSOLUTE COMPARISON but RELATIVE COMPARISON, the word RELATIVE means with the rest of its planeset.
I think if a P51 is 150 Mph faster than a Zeke, it doesn't matter what simulator are you playing, 150 Mph are always 150 Mph of difference so the performances have to be balanced into the whole planeset.
Tell me if have been clear enough pls. ;)
P.S.: I completely agree with you about the Mossie.
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Originally posted by Kweassa
The 109s in AH2, are one of the planes that received the most dramatic levels of inhibition in its ability to maneuver. Clearly, something has happened to its FM, which other planes do not suffer at the same level.
In AH1, one solid fact the 109 had in maneuvering was that it was responsive and very stable.
It couldn't turn as well as some planes, but maneuvering at extremely low speeds was not too hard. Also, while it wasn't a very good turning plane, it was always decent compared to its contemporaries.
While suffering from torque, still the powerful engine enabled it to chug and hang on through the low-speeds and keep maneuvering. You could really push this plane to the limits. While at normal speeds a P-51 or P-47 might be able to temporarily outmaneuver it thanks to early flap usage, but when the speeds came down low the favor was turned to the 109. It would handily outturn a P-47, and outturn the P-51 with some hard effort.
In AH2, all of this is gone. The stability is down to crap levels. You will get outturned in a sustained, prolonged turn fight against a P-47 in a Bf109G-2, because at lower speeds the Bf109G-2 cannot keep a turn radius tight enough to chase a P-47. Why can't it do that?
For starters, at speeds of over 300mph, the P-47 can use the flaps earlier than the 109. It also deccelerates faster - which considering the two factors, makes it possible for the P-47 to maintain at least a same turn radius with the opposing 109. Experts with better rudder/flap management will often even outturn the 109. Okay - no problems with this part.
What happens when the speed drops under 300, and reaches the border line of 199 and 200mph? Well, according to theory and anecdotes, the 109 should be a plane that outturns the P-47 pretty handily.
However, even when the 109 successfully chops its own speed down to use its own flaps - at least the relative advantages of the P-47 with its flaps should be gone, right? Afterall, the P-47 is a behemoth of a plane.
Well, that's not in AH2. While under 200mph, the P-47 with some 2~3 notches of flaps, can hang at the border of its stall limit speed, and keep pulling a tight turn radius.
In a P-47, with about 2 notches of flaps down, with full throttle - you can start a turn that does not gain or lose alt, with heavy rudder assist, and can pull hard enough so that the speed bleeds down to about 100mph and keep it there. In other words, a very tight turn sacrificing speed, hanging by a thread just above the stall speed.
However, the 109 can't do that. When it drops down to low speeds and uses its own flaps, in 109s, you can't pull the stick with full throttle and initiate a turn hard enough to bleed its own speed down to 100mph. Somewhere near 180mph it loses stability and wobbles.
In a sustained turn fight, the P-47 keeps its nose pointed towards you, and despite the slow speed, it still hangs on to the turn. The 109, can't keep its nose pointed towards the P-47 in the first place.
In other words, 109s are pigs in low speed maneuvering now. So, don't go down to low speed, and don't try any reversals.
I've felt a crushing blow to my ego in the fact that I can't outmaneuver a La-7 even with initial E advantage, in a Bf109G, I've been using for years.
I know I am way out of practice and I'm still working the rust loose. But the 109 has always been my favored ride, especially the 109F4 or the 109G2. Since I got the new computer up and running, and I have started playing again, I have noticed the dramatic change in the 109's handling. The other night in a G10, I went up against a co-alt P47 and was in for a huge shock. Admittedly my opponent handled his plane well (much better than I was with my 109), but I was counting on the performance characteristics to equal things out. Before I knew it, while I had managed to avoid dying right off the bat, I had lost both ailerons, my flaps were out, I had oil all over my windscreen, and my canopy resembled a chunk of swiss cheese. By keeping the nose up in the turns and using the climbing ability of the 109 (why didnt I remember that at the outset!?!), in combination with the rudder balancing me, i managed to stay alive for awhile and even get off a couple of snapshots (that did little to no damage unfortunately). I even managed enough separation in the climing spiral move to get off a couple of loops. In the end though, I just plain lost control. I certainly couldnt out turn him, I had to rely on vertical separation and come down on him for the few shots I got. One thing I did notice that really got my attention was how much I lost control if I engaged the flaps. One notch and she started wobbling. 2 notches and she went out of control. Letting the flaps back up at very low speed though caused an even worse loss of control (which I believe is an accurate model, dont quote me as my real flying hours are very small and Ive never been in that type of situation or even discussed it with an instructor.......i just seem to remember hearing somewhere its a very bad idea to raise flaps at very low speed, especially if in a turn).
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Vudak...
The G2is easily the best 109 in every way but pure power...the key to doing well in it is recognizing "relative" position and acting accordingly...for example...the double E is a great positive E merge in any plane...the 109 does it very well because of its climb and acc rate...but so does a Jug or a hog with enough E. In a co-e merge with a spit IX you'll probably get caught at the top of the double by any good stick. The 109 has exceptional vertical rudder authority so its an awesome roper...most good 109 drivers fight in the "veritcal oblique" (basically steep hi yoyo's...your looking for a bunch of canopy snapshots. One key to the 109 is using the throttle to manage speed for shot windows. you can carry to much speed in verticals and "stiffen" handling easily. I'd avoid any type of "flat turning" and work the fight up not down...
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Bozon & humble ;)
U guys are gd pilots, have lots of expertise under ur belts, could u pls post SOME OF UR AH2 FILMS in any warplane model so that
some of the average & beginning pilots learn from u?
Ur kind consideration & films are gratefully solicited :aok
Cheers,
Happy1 :D
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Well, speaking of 109 favorite moves...
The 109 at speed is such a great zoom climber that I'll often break straight up at the merge, and then keep going up, not pulling around. I'll do a lazy turn, look back to see where the enemy is, roll my canopy to face it then lazily pull back, thus pulling into the direction of the other plane. Works a lot if the enemy either can't climb as fast, or is so intent on pulling hard Gs to kill you that he blows his speed on a tight loop/turn. Good for the occasional situation advantage. Got me on more than one tail while I was in a 109.
[EDIT] I don't mean a rope.
What I mean is say the enemy is in a spit, and is so eager to kill you he thinks you are going to pull up and shoot him asap, but you don't. You keep going past where he expected you to be, and he's already turned but you are not there.
More like a vertical overshoot.
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Getting and keeping the "high ground" is the key in the 109 (really in all of em:))...combination of rudder control & wep gives 109 capability to set up multiple vertical passes unless con is smart enough to compress you and run like a scalded dog...
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Originally posted by Happy1
Bozon & humble ;)
U guys are gd pilots, have lots of expertise under ur belts, could u pls post SOME OF UR AH2 FILMS in any warplane model so that
some of the average & beginning pilots learn from u?
Actually, in AHII I'm doing a lot worse in the jug than in AHI, inspite of the claim that P47s have turned into firebolts...
I blame this on my lac of practice (24H is not enough to live AND play AH apparently) and the improved skill level of many 'not-entirely-new' pilots. I actually like it that way. Getting shot down in a good fight is much better than poping 6-7 clueless newbies.
I have very few films from AHII (few sorties that I fly and even fewer that I've filmed). Ack-Ack and lev have been posting great AHII films and they are truely great. check them out.
If I find any worthy film I'll post it, but I doubt it will be as instructive or as good.
Bozon
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Originally posted by Happy1
Bozon & humble ;)
U guys are gd pilots, have lots of expertise under ur belts, could u pls post SOME OF UR AH2 FILMS in any warplane model so that
some of the average & beginning pilots learn from u?
Ur kind consideration & films are gratefully solicited :aok
Cheers,
Happy1 :D
Happy...
I'll be happy to look thru what I have in AH2...films are always good but you need to know what your looking at. I try and find clips that deal with a specific scenario and utilize BFM/ACM vs "pilot stuff". Once you see and understand the underlying geometry and energy management then your better positioned to use your "stick skills"...even now I'll look at some of the clips and go wow...you just flew his prettythang off...why cant I do that...or wow you got an air traffic controller in your head...how you keep all that SA straight...or wow where do I get that lazermatice mark IV gunnery system:(