Aces High Bulletin Board
Help and Support Forums => Help and Training => Topic started by: simshell on September 13, 2004, 01:32:33 AM
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alot of times i want to take that monster not for jabo but for AIR-AIR but im not realy sure which to pick
the 2 that stand out is the D-11 because it is alot lighter
and the D-40 because it has better ENG then the D-11 and better cockpit view
i keep hearing how the D-25 is the best yet iv not seen any proof of it when i looked up the AH1 charts it said it was the same in IB to the P47D-40
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all 3 have a little bit different flight model .
the d 11 and 25 are pritty close, the d40 is ussually a heavy monster that takes more time to master .
I myself like the d11 . its has a very controllable hi-speed dive and when you get down in the weeds a few notches of flaps give it a suprising turn rate . the jugs love hi alt and really shine up at 30k . Its ussually best to set a hard deck and not follow others below it . (15k is mine normally)
once you get familiar with it , pony's and dora's become the ussual food for a good jug pilot .
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The D11 is generally the better dogfighter. It's not really lighter, most of the difference is a smaller fuel tank. It has better stability when slow due to high side crosssection (razorback).
visibility? well... at least the ground crew wipes the windows clean...
D25/D40 enjoy the paddle-blade prop which add much needed 500 fpm to climbrate, but they are less manuverable when slow. The D25 can enter a dangerous side-slip if stalled really slow.
D40 has an improved WEP. when light, it climbs and accelerate very nicely on WEP, so it's the better E fighter of the 3.
WEP is precious. without it all jugs feel heavy and under powered compared to other planes. With WEP you are not a 109, but you can hang on in a fight.
If HTC ever model a paddle-blade on the D11 (which most of them had it installed), that would definitly make it the better dogfighter.
Bozon
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I like both the D-11 and the D-25 ... preferring the D-25 because of its visabilty. It does climb like a scalded monkey tho ... hehe.
I find that I can bring the D-25 down into the weeds (using mutiple stages of flaps) and be somewhat successful in it. Don't get me wrong here ... you have a very short window in the weeds when fighting the likes of a Spit, but with a good merge, throttle control and flaps, you can wax a Spit, but you better do it fast.
Just last week, I had some awesome fights with a 205 at low alt. I was pleasently surprized at the handling of the D-25.
PS .. It doesn't fair to well against 2 Yaks down low ... eh Ros ?
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For any of the P47's, the difference in handling at low weights is fairly dramatic. Most people fly them very heavy though and I think that skews the impression of them. Flown light they can be quite impressive.
The D11 is the lightweight and handles the best but has the crappy view forward. The D25 is overweight and has the poorest performance. The D40 is heavy but has the extra power to pull it along a bit better.
In any of the P47's you need to be pretty efficient though and get the job done quickly. You can't afford to hang around forever while higher E guys get free runs on you. One thing in AH2 though, the P47's all seem to take a much harder hit to knock down. Maybe it's the new gunnery so people don't land quite as hard a hit on average, but I've taken some pretty massive damage and still limped home. I had 2 Spits and a Typhoon all hit me at one point in a tight fight, and some squaddies bailed me out of trouble. I managed to limp home to land... in AH1 I'd have been done considering how many hispanos hit me, but in AH2 I had oil on the windscreen and some missing parts but enough was still attached to fly home.
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Easily the D-25.. the paintjob is wicked cool.
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Speaking as somebody who's never flown a p47 much, I took a -25 up lightly loaded with 6 guns and low ammo. I did ... "okay". I wasn't great but I got some kills. And I could still outrun trouble when I needed. Most of this was low on the deck, too. It probably will be MUCH better at altitude.
So, it can perform well, however I was afraid to get into too much of a fight. I'd pursue the angles but I wasn't about to do strict turn fighting. I tried to keep my speed up and I had few complaints from the fighter. Had I known the razorback was better, I'd have taken it (views be damned). Oh well, live and learn.
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"PS .. It doesn't fair to well against 2 Yaks down low ... eh Ros ?"
Sorry Slap ... Tbolt and I were having a discussion ...
Tbolt " I thought you were gonna kill him"
Roscoroo " Nah I was waiting for you to kill him"
Tbolt " well be my guest you kill him"
You were turning that jug real nice Slap ... If it woulda been just Tbolt in a yak you probely would have beat him . I was winging with him teaching him the fine points of flying the Roo"yak"ovich.
I'm shure you'll get even sometime soon
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I like the 11 for looks and agility but I fly the 40 because of the canopy view, climb and zoom quality.
All it needs now are cooler skins.
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ok i have to ask its realy tempting to take the 8 guns on it with the light ammo load
but is it worth more to take the 6 gun?
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If your planning on dogfighting take the lighter gun/ammo load , if your jaboing load it up with everything.
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I like the 8 gun light ammo option.
8 guns gives you 25% more firepower for a snapshot than the 6 gun configuration and flying the 47 you'll have lots of those.
The light ammo load doesn't give you alot of trigger time though. You need to be right on target and short bursts.
If I know I'll be going upstairs against buffs on a raid or something I'll take the heavy ammo load but that's a rare thing.
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Originally posted by SlapShot
I like both the D-11 and the D-25 ... preferring the D-25 because of its visabilty. It does climb like a scalded monkey tho ... hehe.
I find that I can bring the D-25 down into the weeds (using mutiple stages of flaps) and be somewhat successful in it. Don't get me wrong here ... you have a very short window in the weeds when fighting the likes of a Spit, but with a good merge, throttle control and flaps, you can wax a Spit, but you better do it fast.
Just last week, I had some awesome fights with a 205 at low alt. I was pleasently surprized at the handling of the D-25.
I was flying the 205 and the Ki-61 last week, and frankly, both have suffered badly in their move to AH2.
As to P-47s. I prefer the D-40 with 6 guns (usually short clip too) and no more than 50% fuel. It'll climb with the Spit9 (after burning off the aux tank) and acceleration is much, much better that either the D-11 or D-25. Just remember, keep the fuel weight low (use a belly tank if need be for transit) and avoid the 8 gun, gozillion rounds option. Most of the guys that you'll run into have absolutely no idea what a light D-40 can do, until they're dead that is.
My regards,
Widewing
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I like the 25 but I dont know how it handles in ah2.
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Talk to any of the 56th FG guys(Nomde, frenchy, ammo, sancho to name a few), they are the kings of the jug. Good group of guys I used to fly with a long time ago(here and in ww2ol).
But for me, I personally prefer the D-11 model because of its maneouverability(sp?). Try not to get low and slow with the jug, but incase you do, make sure you know how to reverse a bandit and cause an overshoot. Again, any of the 56th guys should know how to cause a succesful overshoot. I got a film around here somewhere that shows what I mean by frenchy against a 190 with higher E, I'll have to try and see if I can find it.
S!
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Originally posted by Widewing
I was flying the 205 and the Ki-61 last week, and frankly, both have suffered badly in their move to AH2.
As to P-47s. I prefer the D-40 with 6 guns (usually short clip too) and no more than 50% fuel. It'll climb with the Spit9 (after burning off the aux tank) and acceleration is much, much better that either the D-11 or D-25. Just remember, keep the fuel weight low (use a belly tank if need be for transit) and avoid the 8 gun, gozillion rounds option. Most of the guys that you'll run into have absolutely no idea what a light D-40 can do, until they're dead that is.
My regards,
Widewing
Very interesting WW ... I will give that loadout a try ... but I am with Urchin ... the D-25 with invasion stripes is SWEET !!!
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to all AH Jugoons :)
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I take the heavy ammo load and just go really trigger happy untill I get to the low ammo load option (ammo counters at ~1000).
I shoot like Ray Charles.
Bozon
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Take the D11....
Its only drawback is Bomb loadout..
The views you can become familiar with..
D11 feels the most like a fighter (a heavy one) and will get you home safe... (i swear by less pilot wounds due to razorback but may be luck or placebo..)
some of the 6 gun d40's are silly now.. with their e retention and climb under light fuel... d25 has best paint jobs ...
Really boils down to preference... Ive always liked the Razorback....
DoctorYO
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iv been having some fun in it i was fighting a P38 last night and he started to win the 1on1
so i put it in a dive from 15k and he tryed to stay with me to 535mph
he auger is P38 i pull out with ease:D
not sure here but 1 time i dove from 25k to see if the jug can compress at all and it did at around 600mph
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Which Jug did you pick?
Congrats with the 38!
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P47D-25 because i cant stand the D-40s paint skin
if a new paint skin comes online for the D-40 il start using it
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I have two D-40's in the pipe.
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/474_1094938361_side.jpg)
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/474_1091144096_missfire.jpg)
And one in the paint room..
I can't fly'um worth a crap.
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Hmmm. I see some 'naughty bits' on the 2nd. Will HTC approve that ?
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I had considerable stick time in the D11 in AH1. The gunnery model doesn't seem to favor the american 50s as much in AH2, which is what really hurts the Jugs defensive capabilitys.
When you're high E the D11 may be a little weaker then the D25 or D40 on account of less mass (Less mass = less momentum). You'll have to work harder in the older model to keep your advantage, but all Jugs are beasts when diving so it's not really too bad. Just remember to climb back up to some pre-set vulching altitude every once in a while.
Defensively the D11 has a significant advantage over its newer counterparts. The stability this thing offeres in a stall fight is nearly rediculous. Walking the flaps a lot while playing overshoot games is the general strategy. Nobody is going to have a better turn radius then you at speed, and even when slow it's only the real turners like the zeke and the spitV that can get inside your insane turn radius. When things get really bad you want to get flaps out, get low, and do a lot of scissoring and reversing to take advantage of the radius. You won't win at all on turn rate, but if you do a lot of well timed barrel rolls, and low radius full flap split-s's on the deck to force people off your 6, your survivability will be pretty decent.
All in all this fighter is well suited to an experienced competent stick, but terrible for the new to average pilot.
-pellik
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been flying the F4U-1 of late and when i find out its topspeed on the Java chart at netaces i did not know this plane had the same deck speed as the P51B
but it takes years to get to that deck speed
but i think i found it more nimble then the Jug
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Originally posted by simshell
been flying the F4U-1 of late and when i find out its topspeed on the Java chart at netaces i did not know this plane had the same deck speed as the P51B
but it takes years to get to that deck speed
but i think i found it more nimble then the Jug
The f4u is, in some ways, more nible then the jug. It loses out on stability and flap deployment, however. The jug can maintain a comfortable 80mph and still be doing some minor reversals while the f4u will stall long before that.
-pellik
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ever try using the flaps on it
pellik?
it is a very good stall fighter just dont make a mistake when stall fighting or you may get the hog spin of death
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Originally posted by simshell
ever try using the flaps on it
pellik?
it is a very good stall fighter just dont make a mistake when stall fighting or you may get the hog spin of death
Yeah. It still stalls out faster. Also the flaps don't pop nearly so fast on the hogs. Flaps start comming out at 400mph on the jugs!
The f4u is in no way a weak fighter, but it doesn't offer the same turn radius as a jug, nor does it bleed E as fast. I believe it's roll rate is also considerably weaker when slow.
-pellik
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would have to agree its a trade a off
seems like the F4U does better down low then the P47
but boy that F4U4 is a great plane a Hog with P51D speed:)
all we need now is a P47N for the Jug perk plane:cool:
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Originally posted by pellik
Flaps start comming out at 400mph on the jugs!
flaps are useless at 400 mph. They only allow you to dump just a tad more E which the Jug does very good anyway (even when you don't want to ...).
Flaps begin to be significat when you reach speeds low enough so you can't pull max G. 250 mph is planty. being able to pull 1st notch out at 400 mph is just more convenient.
having a few hours in the F4U-1 in AHII, in the earlier tours, I can say that the jug is more stable when slow but the F4u turns alot better. In a circle fight, the jug is dead. various scissors - good matchup.
Bozon
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Uhh, hate to rain on the Jug parade with a reality check, but my P47D pilot manual has the flaps restricted at 190 and gear at 200 IAS.
Turns were prohibited for speeds under 130 IAS.
No P47 had 'combat' flaps. D-30, -35, -40, M and Ns had dive recovery flaps to get out of compression dives.
Using flaps in combat was EXTREAMLY rare and if you fly the Jug right you dont need them.
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whichever one im flying
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I took the D11 jug up for a night of unbridled slaughter just a little bit ago. I can say that it's performance in AH2 is at least as good as it was in AH1. For pilots looking to unlock the mysterys of the jug I want to get a few tips out.
The 400mph combat flaps are your pirmary weapon. Don't listen to realism dweebs who tell you that the 47 isn't supposed to fly like that. The MA isn't much like the real war. There are three situations where popping flaps at speed will make this thing one of the deadliest fighters in the game. In an offensive situation where you're attacking a low con the flaps allow you to turn better then anyone will assume is possible. This means that when a spitfire does a slowly tightening turn, you slowly increase your turn rate to get the shot. I typically don't pop the flaps until I'm about d800 and closing fast. Many good pilots won't be very able to get off effective overshoot maneuvers with that flap out. Offensively this thing is just a killer, but good gunnery is required.
In a co-e fight the 400mph flaps can give you a good, but fleeting, edge. If you and a spit are both barrelling in at 350mph getting ready to start a turnfight after diving to get and/or avoid vertical seperation the 47 pops flaps on the top half of his immel. He is around so much faster then the spit that he gets a cannopy shot on the pass. This also means that once behind a con he isn't going to get away. There is no turn he can do to get a high aot if you pop combat flaps when he yanks hard. No AOT and he can't scissors. The fight is just over.
In a defensive situation these high speed flaps allow the 47 to pull off overshoot maneuvers normally reserved for spit and zeke pilots. I'll assume you've seen wldthings reversal film in which he demonstrates that his spitV starts reversals from d800. You can do that in a 47 barrelling along at 300mph with a 400mph pony or 262 on your 6. Hit flaps and do the reversal at d800 and you'll be saddled up taking your shot before your opponent has cleared 200 feet. It's a great 262 killer.
I state again, however, that the strengths of this plane require a very experienced stick. It can be a real beast, but the jug pilot needs to be able to see and predict his enemys cone of fire at all times. This plane wont win fights by making big looping turns to avoid a weapons solution, but has to rely on getting its opponents in close and making jinking maneuvers to reverse.
As an added "jug tip" bonus, let me just recommend the low alt flat scissors (mostly flat, not so flat that they get a snapshot each pass) as a great last ditch defensive maneuver. I picked up four kills in a flight tonight while being attacked by something like 6 rooks on the deck just by going so slow they stalled trying to follow me. The better pilots backed off and waited for me to make a mistake, but four damn people augered before I did!
-pellik
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Originally posted by YUCCA
whichever one im flying
Then you must be flying the d11.
-pellik
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Originally posted by bozon
flaps are useless at 400 mph. They only allow you to dump just a tad more E which the Jug does very good anyway (even when you don't want to ...).
Flaps begin to be significat when you reach speeds low enough so you can't pull max G. 250 mph is planty. being able to pull 1st notch out at 400 mph is just more convenient.
having a few hours in the F4U-1 in AHII, in the earlier tours, I can say that the jug is more stable when slow but the F4u turns alot better. In a circle fight, the jug is dead. various scissors - good matchup.
Bozon
Assuming this is an even fight the P47 will win the merge by a long shot thanks to the high speed flaps deployment. The f4u1 can either break into energy games, which arn't so hot against a jug, or commit to a turn fight with a co-E jug on his 6. Even if you pull through full blackout on the merge with a throttle chop the 47 will still get around faster. The f4u1 may be able to hold its own against the 47 in a stall fight if both planes start slow.
The other disadvantage the f4u1 will have in a scissors fight is vulnerability to snapshots. The 47 is a very tough plane in AH2. The only weakness it has is engine oil, which is not a quick way to kill someone. It has no radiator, so radiator hits just wont happen. The canopy is pretty tough to crack. I've seen small callibur rounds hit the canopy and not break the window. It just puts a little crack in the glass with no bullet hole. So if the f4u passes behind the p47 3 out of 4 times, the 47 will probably win the fight.
-pellik
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Originally posted by pellik
Assuming this is an even fight the P47 will win the merge by a long shot thanks to the high speed flaps deployment. The f4u1 can either break into energy games, which arn't so hot against a jug, or commit to a turn fight with a co-E jug on his 6.
if the jug is on his 6, it's not really a 'merge'. more like a bounce and in that case almost any plane is hard to shake.
The F4u is very simmilar in preformance to the jug and share many tricks. The jug climb better (on wep) and the Hog holds E better - close match again. In the turning department the hog will easily out-turn the jug once below 250 mph. pulling out the flaps at 400 mph is of little use since you'll be in the blackout anyway. by chopping throttle and using rudder you'll get a much better effect of breaking than with the flaps. when they get important near 200 mph, the hog can pull them out too.
The hog can also use the gear trick for breaking as of 300 mph.
The hog has the same radial engine and is almost as durable.
under 10k almost all advantages go to the f4u. What gets people killed is that they think the jug is a helpless heavy plane and attack carelessly.
Bozon
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Originally posted by bozon
if the jug is on his 6, it's not really a 'merge'. more like a bounce and in that case almost any plane is hard to shake.
The F4u is very simmilar in preformance to the jug and share many tricks. The jug climb better (on wep) and the Hog holds E better - close match again. In the turning department the hog will easily out-turn the jug once below 250 mph. pulling out the flaps at 400 mph is of little use since you'll be in the blackout anyway. by chopping throttle and using rudder you'll get a much better effect of breaking than with the flaps. when they get important near 200 mph, the hog can pull them out too.
The hog can also use the gear trick for breaking as of 300 mph.
The hog has the same radial engine and is almost as durable.
under 10k almost all advantages go to the f4u. What gets people killed is that they think the jug is a helpless heavy plane and attack carelessly.
Bozon
The reason I said the 'jug is on his 6' is that the combat flaps give the jug a rediculously good initial merge compared to the f4u. Not only do combat flaps help you dump E to have a low radius immel on the merge, but they dramatically increase turn rate. The P47 can kill spitVs in co-e fights a lot of times because it gets so much position on the first merge.
The f4u can drop landing gear. Big deal. Combat flaps allow you to exchange energy for turn at an incredible rate while at high speed. Gear just acts as an anchor. Performance is roughly equal after the merge, but if the 47 has already won the fight it won't matter much.
-pellik
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Originally posted by Urchin
Easily the D-25.. the paintjob is wicked cool.
i have to agree with urchin on this one!
hi crutch, how ya doin over there? did they finaly gave the jug the paunch he had?
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Originally posted by pellik
The reason I said the 'jug is on his 6' is that the combat flaps give the jug a rediculously good initial merge compared to the f4u. Not only do combat flaps help you dump E to have a low radius immel on the merge, but they dramatically increase turn rate. The P47 can kill spitVs in co-e fights a lot of times because it gets so much position on the first merge.
If they start at 350 mph the jug will turn a smaller first half circle with or without the flaps, but at the same rate. It will not get you on anybody's 6 since if the turn rate is the same you are not gainning any angles.
If you are talking about HO merge and a "one circle" fight, the jug will be inside the spit's circle and get a snapshot. starting at 350mph this is true without the flaps - their E dumping effect at the first notch is negligible.
a Jug trying this stunt better finish off its target on the one snapshot it gets or it finds itself much slower than the spit and at an angle disadvantage. Luckily, the greater part of the spit pilots are newbies.
The Jug's flaps are perhaps a little too effective when slow, allowing a really slow flying, not when fast. The manuver setting will help you in the 200-250mph range (where you can't pull into the blackout) to keep up with turning targets using nose low turns.
Bozon
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Originally posted by bozon
If they start at 350 mph the jug will turn a smaller first half circle with or without the flaps, but at the same rate. It will not get you on anybody's 6 since if the turn rate is the same you are not gainning any angles.
Not true. Let's think about this logically. What affects turn rate when going fast? G forces. The amount of force exerted on a plane and it's pilot is directly related to the velocity of the plane and the rate at which it's turning. The reason a 300mph plane can't turn on a dime is that turning 90 degrees is roughly the equivilant of coming to a complete stop on a single vector. If the plane or pilot couldn't survive the rate of change of the velocity along that vector the plane or pilot won't survive the turn. Thus the rate of turn is directly proportional to the speed at which the aircraft is travelling. This is true as long as the lift the aircraft provides is sufficient to black out the pilot, after which lift becomes the limiting factor.
When a jug pilot pops a notch of flaps going in to his merge he dramatically increases drag while increasing the lift of his plane. This means that not only will his turn be tighter as the plane slows down, but his turn becomes faster. The real kicker is that the increase of the rate of turn happens primarily while the plane is in the vertical. The more you increase the turn rate while vertical the less time you spend in the vertical, and the faster you're going when you complete the immel. You're left in a better position and with greater maneuverability. The enemy pilot is stilll trying to finish his 'loop' and you've already rolled out and started pulling into him. This is an advantaged position in an angles game. The extra energy the f4u saved on the merge isn't enough to rope (attempting a double immel is a bad idea due to the loss in angle), and it isn't enough to make up for the poor position and maneuverability. An expert pilot would start working into a vertical scissors here, but the jug's extra speed and supperior low speed flaps will still usually give it the fight.
-pellik
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ok, lets do think about this logically.
max turn rate is capped at 6G. If you can pull this without flaps, they will not help you with turn rate. Even with flaps out, most planes are able to pull into the blackout at lower speeds than the jug can.
Hense, turn rate is not really better. Turn radius is.
if you are talking about vertical reversal (immelman), low enough speeds for flaps to add lift are reached. In this case flaps will help you.
BUT, those are speeds in the order of ~250mph or less where all US planes can pop out flaps. The Jug's and P51's advantage is that they can save the actual time it takes the flaps to deploy. it helps a little but that is it.
If not really fast, the Jug's E damping will hurt it's turn rate in exchange to smaller turn radius. It will quickly fall below it's (high) corner speed and cannot maintain max G, while spits or P38 for example will still be comming around at 6G, flaps or no flaps.
So, flaps out will first increase turn rate and then turn you into a flying brick, stall buzzer horning.
The reason you think you turn faster than the spit is that if the spit tries lead turning you (as they usually do), the fast slowing down and his E retantion will place you deep inside his circle. that's geometry, not a faster turn.
The top side shot you mentioned, actually means the spit turned about 180 degrees while you turned about 90 degrees after the HO merge.
Bozon
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Well i will give honest opinion-even if yall dont care!
Jug-11: Best at turning. fastest, accelerates the worst and climbs the worst.
Jug-25: It's d40 and d11 crossbreed- though honestly i notice no handling differnce between it and d40
Jug-40: My fav: Best accel/climb/stablilty/view
thats about it
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Originally posted by bozon
ok, lets do think about this logically.
max turn rate is capped at 6G. If you can pull this without flaps, they will not help you with turn rate. Even with flaps out, most planes are able to pull into the blackout at lower speeds than the jug can.
Hense, turn rate is not really better. Turn radius is.
Like I said, 6g is relative to your speed. 6g at a slower speed is a faster turn then 6 g at a higher speed.
if you are talking about vertical reversal (immelman), low enough speeds for flaps to add lift are reached. In this case flaps will help you.
BUT, those are speeds in the order of ~250mph or less where all US planes can pop out flaps. The Jug's and P51's advantage is that they can save the actual time it takes the flaps to deploy. it helps a little but that is it.
I ran a few tests and found that the jug seems to immel about 2 seconds faster from 400mph with a notch of flaps. 20 seconds to immel with em, 22 without.
If not really fast, the Jug's E damping will hurt it's turn rate in exchange to smaller turn radius. It will quickly fall below it's (high) corner speed and cannot maintain max G, while spits or P38 for example will still be comming around at 6G, flaps or no flaps.
So, flaps out will first increase turn rate and then turn you into a flying brick, stall buzzer horning.
A big part of learning to be successful turnfighting in american planes is to know when it works to your advantage to be low E. For the first part of the fight you want to be turning fast, but if you do things right you want to have a lower radius pretty quickly thereafter. The la7 has a significant energy advantage over the jug, but it's not really much of a threat on account of it's over abundance of speed. A jug pilot will usually start to fight nose down with flaps out here anyway, so the lower E state isn't too much of a problem.
The reason you think you turn faster than the spit is that if the spit tries lead turning you (as they usually do), the fast slowing down and his E retantion will place you deep inside his circle. that's geometry, not a faster turn.
The top side shot you mentioned, actually means the spit turned about 180 degrees while you turned about 90 degrees after the HO merge.
No, that wouldn't be an immel on my part then. If I do an immel I turn 180. The jug can beat the spit around on account of its lower E state. A spitV can dump E fast enough to get in if he planes his merge correctly, but a spit9 will not complete his immel as fast as the jug. Thus I am wings level and pointing at him while he is still inverted pulling back to level. The shot you get here is an approximate 175 degree aot shot, just shy of a HO. If he 'lead turns' me on a merge like this after we both dive I'm going to saddle up on him in the verticle. He really can't pull up until our planes have nearly passed. A little bit of lead turn (right as the planes pass) is more or less expected of us both.
-pellik
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20 seconds for an immelman seems like a godawful long time.
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pellik, bozon, your both saying the same thing, and are both basically correct.
The REASON the p47 (or fw, or heck any plane that doesn't hold E like the spits do) will out turn spits is that it is bleeding E much faster, and slower plane, tighter turn radius. You should out turn the spit for a round or two, but then the spit will have the tighter turn, (it DOES turn better at slower speeds), and it's time to dive away and regroup.
Now a SMART spit pilot will chop throttle, and you are doomed.
If you are in a Jug, trying to flat turn with a spit, your need to rethink your flying.
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Originally posted by Urchin
20 seconds for an immelman seems like a godawful long time.
This is a 400mph immelman. The only way to beat 20sec is to cut throttle and get slower before the maneuver. 20sec is better then almost any other plane. Maybe a real energy burner like the fm2 could beat it, but I'm not sure.
For slower speed fights immels arn't quite as relevent, because pitchbacks and other immel counters give too many variables.
-pellik
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Originally posted by pellik
The extra energy the f4u saved on the merge isn't enough to rope (attempting a double immel is a bad idea due to the loss in angle), and it isn't enough to make up for the poor position and maneuverability. An expert pilot would start working into a vertical scissors here, but the jug's extra speed and supperior low speed flaps will still usually give it the fight.
-pellik
the only AH pile-it I have seen to be capable of pulling this off consistently so far has been SirLoin, I am sure there might be a few more, but I have only ran across SirLoin, that can capitalize in the Jug like pellik has described here.
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I dont know what you call immelman, but I tested the P47D40 (50%), P51D (50%), P38L (50%), and 109G2 (100%) - from 350 mph level at a few feet, hard pull (the buzzer goes off) till nose crosses the horison on the other side, inverted. record was on and measurements were done watching the film viewer.
it's 5.5-6 sec for all of the above to preform this and using 1 notch of flaps did not seem different (not in my accuracy of measurement which is not better than 0.5 sec).
all planes were ~200 mph when crossing the horison inverted, exept perhaps for the G2 which was 210-215 mph (all planes full throttle, no WEP).
conclusion - above 350mph all planes will take about the same time to immel.
pellik, bozon, your both saying the same thing, and are both basically correct.
We were arguing turn rate. we agree about turn radius effects. Being able to pull out flaps at 400 mph has little effect on the time it takes you to reverse direction.
Now a SMART spit pilot will chop throttle, and you are doomed.
or worse, just evade the one taugh snapshot you get and now you have a spit with better E against you while you are doing 200 mph. NOW you'll really need to use those flaps...
Bozon
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why would anyone want to do an immel at 400 mph in a Jug and start turning with a spitV or a Spit9 to begin with? It would seem much more productive to keep your Speed and make slashing attack type passes on a more nimble plane than the one you are flying, unless you just want to see if you can outurn a spit9 with a Jug, and like the thrill from it all
going by bozon's test you are giving up 150 to 200 mph on the first rev/merge etc... that is a big sum of E to throw away on the first merge, unless it is a 1 on 1 duel with dissimilar aircraft ....just another view of it all.
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because it's challenging.................. ..
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usually...............
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Bump good read and some helpful info for jug pilots. Any new info on the P47M's stats?
Anymore advice for these birds will be taken with arms wide open.
Thanks
CGAR
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Wolfala is pretty hip on the M model jug. I'd talk to him when ya see him around. Maybe shoot him a PM. :salute
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IMO I think the best all around Jug would be the D25. It has excellent cockpit visibility, and has all the traits that the other Jugs have: ruggedness, firepower, speed, dive, and high speed manueverability.
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I have always stayed away from jugs but Mtnman showed me the way of the D-11 one day and it changed me... D-11 is a good bird, you just have to practice in it, it's a great jug trainer for those who want to learn it's mysterious ways.
Geez, almost 6 years old!
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The 25 is my favorite also. :aok
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The D25 is about the worst of the Jugs IMO but It's so close to the D40 to almost be moot. The D11 is faster, the D40 climbs a little bit better, and the M eats them all for breakfast.
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I figured the M had the best performance of them all, but most if not all the jug threads have little to no info on how to fly them or a comparison vs the other jugs.
Has a speed/ climb chart been created on the M yet?
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Has a speed/ climb chart been created on the M yet?
Of course. Visit the AH scorepages for the Plane versus Plane Speed and Climb performance charts
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The D25 is about the worst of the Jugs IMO but It's so close to the D40 to almost be moot. The D11 is faster, the D40 climbs a little bit better, and the M eats them all for breakfast.
You forget: D-25 has the coolest paint jobs :aok I find N most fun to fly, though M is superior in nearly all respects
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I was in Training Arena doing some F4U practice the other night and ran across Lepape in his P47d11.
He is one of the best 47 pilots I've fought in AHII, and he really knows how to handle that 47.
I tried to follow him into the weeds, and I must say I had to use all the tricks in the f4u bag to stay behind him. Not really getting any good gun solutions on him at all.. He was just in a nearly constant stall speed while scissoring underneath my nose, and I had to make lag turns to just stay behind him. When that slow into the weeds that is a pretty dangerous move in the f4u, because the hogspin into the ground is gonna get you if you don't keep your head cool and watch your speed.
I almost had my guns at him a few times and possibly landed a few pings too, but he just seemed to flip around and disappear nose down and under me and would have been on my 6 before I knew it if I was not climbing up and flipping my nose straight down at his 6 again.
But the f4u gets really laggy when this slow, and I had to really consentrate my moves on not just going straight down into the ground when nose down while the jug was allready in his next scissor move.
Really fun to fight like this, and it was great practice for me to try to keep the f4u locked onto his 6.
I have to say some of the moves that 47 pulled infront of me I would not have believed was possible if I did not see them with my own eyes. :uhoh :noid
But I've fought Lepape in his d11 before and knew very well what he's capable of, and that he can give you a fight you'll remember.
I'm just a noob pilot compared to the oldtimers in here, but I think I know a good pilot when I see one!
So if you need help with handling the P47 I think its well worth to ask Lepape for a tip or two..
:salute Lepape
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You forget: D-25 has the coolest paint jobs :aok I find N most fun to fly, though M is superior in nearly all respects
And that's why the 25 is my favorite. If i'm going to die, I might as well look good doing it. :lol
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I figured the M had the best performance of them all, but most if not all the jug threads have little to no info on how to fly them or a comparison vs the other jugs.
Has a speed/ climb chart been created on the M yet?
Cgar, you pull up an old 2004 thread and ask why there isn't any info on the M? M's only been in game about a year. When this thread originally started, we didn't even have the N model. Try searching for something a bit more recent, as there seems to be a general Jug thread about every year where folks are talking about comparisons.
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I didn't pull this thread up just looking for M info. I was just reading info on P47's and after other searches I noticed there was not alot of info on the M and just asked a question? :headscratch:
Plus after being here for a while, (not really posting here) I notice peole catch alot of flak for not using the search button, so here it is. :)