Aces High Bulletin Board
Help and Support Forums => Help and Training => Topic started by: Ack-Ack on September 13, 2004, 05:28:27 AM
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Film I shot last night fighting Bishops at A37. It's against a Bf109 but I don't know which variant. They all look the same to me.
The film starts with me chasing a running F4U4 that decided to leave after he blew his initial advantage. I was going to turn off the film after it became obvious this guy had no intentions of fighting but when I did my view sweep, I spotted a dot on my six in the distance. Pretty much figured the F4U was going to drag me and then dive to his field to get me low so the Bishop closing on my six can cherry for the kill. Sure enough, the F4U rolled and broke for the deck so I pulled up and headed to the dot that was behind me and engaged it.
I had already two fights with this pilot earlier and on the first one he pulled this reversal on me. The next flight I ran into him again and this time I was ready for his reversal and hung back when he attempted it and got him this time. This is our third fight and again he attempted the reversal a couple of times but I was able to hang back. My crappy gunnery skills again rear their ugly heads and I miss on a few opportunities but I did manage to hit him with a solid burst at about 600 yards out. Don't know how much damage I did but he crashed a few moments later.
It was a good fight and a good example of the P-38's handling and maneuvering capabilities. Not often does the P-38's turning ability get compared to the Nancyfire
ack-ack
P-38 vs. Bf109 (http://479th.jasminemarie.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=Downloads&file=index&req=getit&lid=12)
479th Film Library (http://479th.jasminemarie.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=Downloads&file=index&req=viewdownload&cid=1)
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WOW, I was amazed about those bad moves a very good pilot like Fester did until his splattering into the ground like logical consequence.
Anyway, afther the first merge it became almost impossible to him manage that situation correctly because his only escape window was soon closed wasting all his E and he could nomore escape.
He could have been a better chance to maneuver his 109 trying scissoring and rolling due the poor rolling performances of P38, in some cases this functioned when I made this moves.
This is my point of view. :aok
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It looks like he dumped he energy in order to force me to over shoot so he can get me on the reversal. Nice plan in theory, terrible in execution.
ack-ack
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Originally posted by clouds
WOW, I was amazed about those bad moves a very good pilot like Fester did until his splattering into the ground like logical consequence.
Anyway, afther the first merge it became almost impossible to him manage that situation correctly because his only escape window was soon closed wasting all his E and he could nomore escape.
He could have been a better chance to maneuver his 109 trying scissoring and rolling due the poor rolling performances of P38, in some cases this functioned when I made this moves.
This is my point of view. :aok
Fester plays overshoot games. Most good pilots will prefer a quick overshoot to a long drawn out fight. Ack-ack manages to drop so much E before the merge that he sticks right in behind fester. If he had been 50mph faster the fight would have gone the other way and ended right when it started. This is true for any overshoot maneuver. If you can make yourself co-e while he is maneuvering you'll have a good start in the fight.
Rolling against most 38s is a fine idea, but not against the good ones. Full rudder and a little forward pressure on the stick allow the 38 to roll at a decent rate, but not many pilots are really competent with the rudder. Obviously a 190 or the like will still out roll a 38, but most planes won't really gain much from rolling other then allowing even more closure and putting themselves in a harder spot to evade the shot. If rolling is that important in the fight the 38 has a very controllable snap roll, just pull the stick back past the stall point and kick rudder. Push forward to stop.
-pellik
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Obviously I'm not a skilled P-38's pilot but.....listening to who instead is, it seems the 38 have not a weak point, however it is, I have not so many difficulties to down a 38 with any of mine Spits V/IX (and sometime with my La7) and I don't think all I've met are bad pilots ;) (maybe some times they'r in a bad start position but....this is the game).
For sure, if I meet a good pilots, it could be hard to me have a chance to have a good fire solution but........usually I work on this situations with much fun and some adrenaline ;) :cool:
P.S.: I don't consider the 38 a Dogfighter because of its dimensions, it is a big plane and so it could become a simple target also from far away, and.......horiz stabilizer is another weak point (maybe the worst of all).
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There arn't many skilled 38 pilots in the MA these days. I can think of maybe 5 that fly actively, and another 6 or so that are on as little as two days a tour. If you want to learn about the 38 message me in the game and I'll head to the DA with ya.
-pellik
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Thk in advance pellik, I appreciate your interest but......i've not an active MA account at the moment, only H2H arenas.
So if you wanna come there (tell me when before) we'll meet.
:aok
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the P38 is a great ride and a VERY capable dogfighter. I'm not one of the "pros" Pellik mentioned, but I'm no slouch. Pellik is a good teacher, and I wish I could spend some more time with him.
I think the biggest problem I have with the 38 is its such a great Jabo plane that I'm forever fighting with ord. on board !!! If it wasn't for that I'd have some decent numbers in it. A fast spit is about the only plane I fear in it :)
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Originally posted by MaddogJoe
the P38 is a great ride and a VERY capable dogfighter. I'm not one of the "pros" Pellik mentioned, but I'm no slouch. Pellik is a good teacher, and I wish I could spend some more time with him.
I think the biggest problem I have with the 38 is its such a great Jabo plane that I'm forever fighting with ord. on board !!! If it wasn't for that I'd have some decent numbers in it. A fast spit is about the only plane I fear in it :)
There are a few approaches to dealing with high spits in a 38. You'll want to identify what type of spit it is pretty quick if you can, as the bs you can pull against a spit9 is a lot greater then a spit5.
To help inspire confidence in the 38 let me lay out a very common scenario for you: You're sitting on auto climb at about 5k and spot a spit9 lining up on your high 6 at about d2.5 out. You see the - sign so you know he is closing pretty quick.
First unload your drop tanks and ord. Turning while heavy isn't too hot an idea unless you're really sure of the situation. Then hit auto level and WEP to get some E and get trimmed up.
Two seconds later or so your trim is set and your spit is at 'd2.0' and closing. Here you want to start a low yo yo to try and get below him. Watch what he does here very carefully. I'm going to assume he dives straight at you pressing the HO pass.
This first pass you want to just fly right under him. You should be just slightly nose up by the time he passes. It's a very hard shot for him so you can be confident in your pass. Basically you turned that low yo-yo into a good amount of vertical seperation. After the pass just go about 30 degrees nose high and extend out. This 'fake pass' will tell you a lot about your opponent.
Keeping with the 'average spit9' he extends out in much the same mannor, and the distance between your planes will be at D2.5 again in no time. He will do an immel and start diving toward you here. He is going to try harder this shot.
Right after he does his immel and gets a little E repeat the low yo-yo, and keep nose down comming out of the turn. Make him dive even more to try for the shot. Before he passes start pulling nose up into an immel yourself. You want to zoom up right behind him as he blows by. Because he is an 'average spit' he intends to turn fight with you and will likely do a high yo-yo or immel himself.
Do a double immel, you're still below him and, despite being low E, you're capable of stalling much later then he is thanks to the neutral stall characteristics of the 38. He will break into a low yo-yo or flat turn after his one immel to try and get around on you. Pop full flaps to top off your second immel faster and do a low yo-yo toward him. Between rolling in the immel and the full flap nose low turn you're now winning an angles fight. If you can't get the shot right here scissor into him after your planes pass. You should be just shy of a shot while he is maybe 10 degrees away from getting the HO he just planned out. You roll to the other side and do a slightly high yo-yo. He will pass right in front of you. With practice this pass is a good kill shot You can now saddle up for a while and keep pressing for a shot. There is almost nothing he can do to get a good shot on you thanks to being 50mph faster and not having flaps. You just won the fight against a high spit entierly because you were slower then him when the turning started.
This is an example of using just one of the 38s advantages. There really is something in your favor in any situation. Not many pilots learn to appriciate this, most rely on flying a plane which is just terribly good at one thing. Spit pilots just want to turn. LA7 pilots just want to go fast. The 38 has the advantage over every plane if you get control over the terms of the fight. Don't try to play energy games with an LA7, and don't lock yourself into a flat turn with a spit, you'll do fine.
As far as carrying ord goes, this is what's nice about seperate fighter and attack modes. If your K/D in attack sucks it's because your heavy. Use your K/D in fighter to see how you stack up in fights.
-pellik
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Thanks Pellik, now I have something else to work on ! LOL!!! As if I didn't have enough already ;) Its going to take me a week to break that down into english first!
j/k thanks for the info, I know what you say makes sence, now its just trying to get me to remember it thats the tuff part!
.... umm btw, films are a great learning tool.... ya got any ? :)
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Originally posted by MaddogJoe
Thanks Pellik, now I have something else to work on ! LOL!!! As if I didn't have enough already ;) Its going to take me a week to break that down into english first!
j/k thanks for the info, I know what you say makes sence, now its just trying to get me to remember it thats the tuff part!
.... umm btw, films are a great learning tool.... ya got any ? :)
479th Film Library (http://479th.jasminemarie.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=Downloads&file=index&req=viewdownload&cid=1)
Mostly P-38 films.
ack-ack
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Thanks AK-AK but I got my computer set-up so as soon as you or anyone else in the 479th post I get the film ! LOL!! Thanks to Murdr and everyone else who put together the films section, I know I'm not the only one who appreciates it!
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mmmm, P38s, yummy. :rolleyes:
good film collection.
~S~
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Ack-Ack m unable to download ANY of ur films!! Keep getting
"SERVICE UNAVAILABLE" MSG ...Pls fix....thx.
Happy1 :D
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Originally posted by Happy1
Ack-Ack m unable to download ANY of ur films!! Keep getting
"SERVICE UNAVAILABLE" MSG ...Pls fix....thx.
Happy1 :D
Grrrrrr....the new hosts were supposed to make the changes. iPowerWeb is useless :c/
I'll make the fixes tonight after I get home from work.
ack-ack
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Uhm......reading what pillik wrote it seems the only thing an opponent in a spit can do vs a p38 is.......following the things pellik wrote but.......in that plane there could be someone whom doesn't have any intention to follows pellik's rules and so bye bye p38 pilot ;) :) :D
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Originally posted by clouds
Uhm......reading what pillik wrote it seems the only thing an opponent in a spit can do vs a p38 is.......following the things pellik wrote but.......in that plane there could be someone whom doesn't have any intention to follows pellik's rules and so bye bye p38 pilot ;) :) :D
That someone is Leviathn.
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in a same E state. spit9 vrs p38 the spit9 will win
its just a batter plane
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Originally posted by Flyboy
in a same E state. spit9 vrs p38 the spit9 will win
its just a batter plane
Maybe the spit9 had a slight (slight) advantage back in AH1, but the 38 has gotten a big boost in AH2. From a co-E state the 38 can still take the spit9 in a stall fight. It can pop flaps and win a flat turn fight by getting a smaller turn radius. Or it can speed up and have a performance edge while the fight is moving ~350 mph. The situations in which the spit9 is the better fighter are pretty limited and easy to avoid.
-pellik.
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Originally posted by clouds
Uhm......reading what pillik wrote it seems the only thing an opponent in a spit can do vs a p38 is.......following the things pellik wrote but.......in that plane there could be someone whom doesn't have any intention to follows pellik's rules and so bye bye p38 pilot ;) :) :D
My stated intent was to give one specific example of how to deal with a high spit in a 38. It was not the definitive way to win a fight. Tell me what you'd do differently if you were the spitfire, and I'll tell you what I'd do.
-pellik
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The only edge I see the 38 having is the ability to bleed E faster. The spit will out climb out turn and out accelerate it (not by much in any one). Truthfully its a matter of pilot skill. But if the spit wins the merge the 38 is probably toast.
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Originally posted by MOSQ
That someone is Leviathn.
What makes a great pilot like Todd so dangerous is a combination of many hard to learn skills. A good pilot who knows how to hold back to avoid the easy overshoot can still be forced out in front by a 38 more often then not thanks to the tremendous stall fighting potential the 38 has. The danger you face fighting the aces like Levi is that their gunnery is so unforgiving. Many of my close in reversals do force me to give up low probability shots. Only a handful of pilots hit me while doing them, and even fewer hit well enough to cause damage. Ever see a P38 go 15 degrees nose up with a spitV 50 feet behind him and do a flat (although nose high) scissors? If the spit is very careful with his E state (or very low on fuel) he can maybe follow long enough for one snap shot. The spits inability to fly as slow as the 38 while subsequently being too low to get it's nose up sets up a truely bizarre reversal. I wouldn't expect Levi to miss the snapshot, whether he is flying a spitV or anything else with guns.
(The premise of this reversal is to go so freakin slow that he has no real options but to break off. He can't maintain level flight at these speeds, if he backs off to try to regain enough E to get his nose up he will overshoot under me. If he trys for the shot he will stall. If he breaks off I will cut in right behind him. This is just how stall fights work. If things start to go wrong you can do a throttle cut in this situation and put it into a stall where, while level, the plane simply floats straight down. It's hard not to overshoot someone who has cut all horizontal movement out of their flight and is only going down at maybe 4k ft/sec. This is a last ditch stall, though.)
-pellik
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Originally posted by humble
The only edge I see the 38 having is the ability to bleed E faster. The spit will out climb out turn and out accelerate it (not by much in any one). Truthfully its a matter of pilot skill. But if the spit wins the merge the 38 is probably toast.
The 38 gets to deploy flaps. The spitV may be able to out-climb the 38, but climb rate only really matters when both planes are only so nose high as to be going up at their respective climb rates. When the fight is moving towards a stall the spit can be in a pretty tough spot trying to hold off all that torque without enough air moving over his flight surfaces. Or by "the spit wins the merge" you mean lets start a fight with a co-E spitV 200 feet behind my 38? Typically I try not to lose the merge like this.
-pellik
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I don't know pellik......maybe I've not met a very thoug pilot (surely I met only good ones sometimes) but....I don't think that down a 38 has been, is, or will be the problem more in my life ;) at least untill now.
Surely it make me flow some adrenaline more but......zekes are thoug for me in low speed fighting and especially at low alt.
One of the best countermeasures Vs the 38 is.......to stay in its belly side or maneuver so that its pilot must roll to watch at you.
So few times I've tried the 38 I had this kind of problems,.......keeping the opponet in sight.
Strangely I felt very good also in a Lala Vs a P38 that is another kind of plane at all.
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Obviously I'm discussing a merge not having a plane 200 on your 6...I was thinking spit IX not spit V. A 38 has a big edge E fighting a spit V but little chance of beating it in a well flown angles fight (again pilot skill is the primary factor) vs a spit IX the spit has a lot more potential E but loses it's edge in a true turning fight significantly. If the 38 has an edge in total energy it will win a vertical fight pretty easily with a spitty (either type)...but if the spit is co-e or better it should control the fight (spit IX).
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Pellik,
You make an awful lot assumptions. If you've reached a point that your at full flaps stall in a 38 you've removed a lot of options. The same way your not going to just "let" someone get 200 out on your 6 most decent pilots wont just let you suck them into a horizontal endgame at less than 100 nkts...
If the spit pilot's got any brains he's fighting you in the vertical obliques not chasing your flat scissors. Now we all know that pilot ability supercedes both aircraft performance and common sense...great sticks seem to be able to make good sticks to stupid things almost at will...no clue why...but it simply works that way. Dont confuse out flying someone with the planes normal performance envelope...
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Originally posted by humble
Obviously I'm discussing a merge not having a plane 200 on your 6...I was thinking spit IX not spit V. A 38 has a big edge E fighting a spit V but little chance of beating it in a well flown angles fight (again pilot skill is the primary factor) vs a spit IX the spit has a lot more potential E but loses it's edge in a true turning fight significantly. If the 38 has an edge in total energy it will win a vertical fight pretty easily with a spitty (either type)...but if the spit is co-e or better it should control the fight (spit IX).
I've always found the turn radius of the spit IX to be horrendous. If the 38 keeps the fight at least partially in the verticle the spit IX seems to be disadvantaged to me because of this. My general strategy for out turning a spit IX is to get flaps out and keep the fight either going nose up or nose down. When the spitIX gets a little above the 38 I try to get my nose up a little above the spit and use roll rate to augment my turn (not unlike a turnfight adapted immel, except only 30-40 degrees nose up instead of 90 degrees). If the spit gets below the 38 I find the nose down flaps out turn on the 38 to be vastly superior to the nose down turn of the spit IX. I find the really well flown spit IX's tend to adopt a pure E fighting tactic against 38s not unlike the tactics used by 109G10 pilots. These "cowardly" tactics do allow the spitIX to maintain an advantage over the 38, but if the 38 is also well flown these attacks usually won't accomplish anything except to delay things until more planes show up, as the loose high E flying style necessary to avoid the true turn fight is very prone to overshoot.
-pellik
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I agree with you completely...the spitty has a tough time managing E state....it'll "overspeed" very easily in a nose down turn...the p-38 will eat it up if the spitty moves away from an energy fight. The 38 however does offer a large target so I usually dont have a problem hitting them...I'm not a spit driver however so I'm not a great example here. Truthfully I dont have much problem 1 on 1 with either spits or 38's in my -1. I'll get hosed by the uber pilot not the plane usually.
Added at edit...
The above comment might be a bit confusing since it's a bit "two faced"...
The 38 isnt really out turning the spitty it's simply managing it's speed better. Again its a pilot thingy here...if the spitty driver knows to scrub his speed so he is actually neg E here he can (and will) turn inside the 38...but most spitty drivers get forced "outside" due to high speed and fall to a well timed reversal...basically your using the spittys e retention against it and then forcing the overshoot...the better flown spitty will minimize overshoot and maintain a shot window or simply take thehigh ground vs a well flown 38.
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In a Falcon 4 site, the site programmer have implemented a white board, usefull to draw exaples pertaining what they are writing for.
I've found it a real nice stuff and it could be usefull also here.
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The only problem with a diagram is it shows the manuver not the motive behind it. For example if you have a spitty in "lag" thats completely different than a spit vainly attempting to pull lead on pellicks 38 from a higher E state...now if he reverses on the 2nd spit proximity and E state converge to creat an almost undeniable overshoot...the 38 also has enough E to close to guns thru out a vast majority of the spits possible counters. Now the same pilot flying lag will have total control of the 38...yet on the diagram they could be at the same relative position at one particular point in time. One of the biggest issues with an uber stick is understanding his intent, often he's looking for a very fleeting option but can deliver thru superior "touch" and gunnery....or he shows you something that doesnt really exist then takes it away the moment you go for the "bait". Intent and timing is more important then the "move" itself in air combat.
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Originally posted by Flyboy
in a same E state. spit9 vrs p38 the spit9 will win
its just a batter plane
Depends on the tactics used. A smart P-38 would use the vertical to get the Spitfire slow then turn with it.
ack-ack
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Originally posted by humble
Pellik,
You make an awful lot assumptions. If you've reached a point that your at full flaps stall in a 38 you've removed a lot of options.
No you haven't. Too bad the films don't show all the instruments working or in a lot of my films you'll see me in turn fights with Spitfires moving my flaps from full to 3/4 back to full then to 3/4, etc. The only danger with having full flaps engaged is if you kill the enemy plane and find yourself on the deck. Then being at full flaps really sucks.
ack-ack
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The real big problem in a flap stal fighting is the relative low speed and distance between the opponents, that make every little mistake done probably the last one a pilot did.
Anyway this kind of maneuvers needs a good plane handling and then training to predict any bad move the plane could have.
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Originally posted by Ack-Ack
Depends on the tactics used. A smart P-38 would use the vertical to get the Spitfire slow then turn with it.
ack-ack
the spit9 is a monster in the vertical. hendles perfectly on the stall speed.
when i fly the spit9 i use it allmost exclusivly in the vertical.
it just doesnt seem like that because 90% or so od the players who use it dont know how
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Originally posted by Flyboy
the spit9 is a monster in the vertical. hendles perfectly on the stall speed.
when i fly the spit9 i use it allmost exclusivly in the vertical.
it just doesnt seem like that because 90% or so od the players who use it dont know how
maybe you forgot that the P38L is the best vertical fighter in the game
and the P38 can handle slow speeds better then the Spit9 with the proper use of flaps
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I think the best in the vertical is 109-G10.
It is the fastest (so you can reposition afther the merge) and climbs also the best of all but it is not for turn fights but in the vertical plane.
The more you go high and the more it runs.
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Originally posted by Ack-Ack
No you haven't. Too bad the films don't show all the instruments working or in a lot of my films you'll see me in turn fights with Spitfires moving my flaps from full to 3/4 back to full then to 3/4, etc. The only danger with having full flaps engaged is if you kill the enemy plane and find yourself on the deck. Then being at full flaps really sucks.
ack-ack
I'm responding to his comments on "full stall" evasives to force an overshoot....minimium vertical speed for a 38 is about 120...if he's going to full flaps edge of stall hes at 80 or less. Obviously if your in a stallfight your biggest strength is getting the fight slow (although I dont think you csn out turn a spit in a 38)...The spitty cant slow down as fast as the 38 and the 38 can maximize its turn capability with flaps thruout the 80-180 speed range better than the spitty can...normally what happens is the spitty is going 175 and the 38 walks the flaps from 185 down thru 150 while the spitty is still at 165-170...now the spitty is toast...he's giving a plane form shot if he continues his turn...he cant scrub enough to reverse without giving a plane form shot and if he goes vertical he giving the 38 a tracking shot. The spitty is being out turned because its to fast most of the time...not because a 38 will outturn it...
As for fighting in the vertical...38 is one of the best but 109 and spit are both in the same league (IMO)...again pilot skill is the biggest factor...not the plane.
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Rgr I completely agree with you but I would like to see all this theories made on the paper flying in a real AH arena ;) :aok
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The IRL "Rules" for flying a P-38:
Combat Tactics in the SouthWest Pacific Area by Maj. Tom McGuire (http://rhinobytes.com/haze/mcguire.htm)
Ironically he died in his quest to be #1 because he broke his own Rules:
Never engage in combat at less than 250 mph, preferrably never less than 300mph.
Never engage in combat with drop tanks on.
This quote is remarkable in comparison to this thread:
"The only Japanese fighter which can be outmaneuvered by a P-38 is the twin engine Nick. When pursuing or pursued you must keep to the shallow dive, climb, or turn because there is not a trick maneuver in the book that can't be done better in a Japanese plane than in a P-38. In making passes, hold your lead in deflection as long as you can, but just as soon as you lose that lead, roll out of the turn and keep going straight. Never pull up beyond 30 degrees when pursuing, because your loss of speed will permit the Japanese pilot to loop over onto your tail. Break combat when it is to your advantage to do so, don't wait until you set yourself up in such a position that the Japanese pilot will have the advantage. Make him fight on your terms, don't fight on his."
"Speed is important! Since you cannot out-maneuver the Japanese fighters it should be obvious that to have any success in combat against them, speed is essential. If at all possible, keep your speed in combat at three hundred miles plus. Never slow down below 250 miles per hour once in a flight. There have been pilots who slowed down in combat, but they are no longer capable of telling you how dangerous it is to do so."
The Nick he mentions is not the NIKI-J in AHII, it was the twin engine Kawasaki KI45 Toryu.
Back to AHII:
In the above arguments about the Spit V vs the P-38:
Put Levi in his Spit V against ANY P-38 flyer in AHII in anything close to a co-E situation, my money is on Levi.
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Originally posted by clouds
I think the best in the vertical is 109-G10.
It is the fastest (so you can reposition afther the merge) and climbs also the best of all but it is not for turn fights but in the vertical plane.
The more you go high and the more it runs.
What makes a fighter good in the verticle is it's stall characteristics, not it's engine performance. The P38s engines rotate in opposite directions, which means that the torque from either one is completely cancelled by the other. When planes get below stall speed in the verticle they can't maintain enough air flow over their flight surfaces (rudders and ailerons) to counter the torque created by their engine. A 109-G10 will stall while still ~100mph. If you cut your throttle a little before the stall in the G10 it has good recovery, but this doesn't begin to compete with a plane that can simply point up until -below- zero mph. The plane that stalls first usually takes the defensive, as the later stalling plane is now above and behind him.
-pellik
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Originally posted by Flyboy
the spit9 is a monster in the vertical. hendles perfectly on the stall speed.
when i fly the spit9 i use it allmost exclusivly in the vertical.
it just doesnt seem like that because 90% or so od the players who use it dont know how
The spit9s verticle characteristics as well as it's handling at stall and sub-stall speeds are, while decent against most planes, both pretty weak compared to the 38. When a turnfight reaches sub-stall speeds both the spit9 and spitV have to chose between being able to maintain level flight or going nose down to be able to turn (The act of banking the plane to turn at these speeds will drop your nose. And until you regain some E you won't be able to get it back up). The 38 can actually turn pretty quick while hitting that stall mark, and thanks to it's torque characteristics it can remain nose high while doing so. When the fight reaches that stall climax the spit always has to back off for E which gives the 38 a chance to use it's crazy stall abilitys to simply spin in for a kill shot. The basic strategy with the reversal I detailed earlier is that when the spit backs down a little to regain enough E to "out turn" turn with the 38, the 38 pilot being at stall speed just needs to kick rudder and do what is basically a hammerhead maneuver into a low yo-yo to gain angles. Sometimes the 38 pilot needs to start getting crazy and playing with manifold pressure on one particular engine to make this stall happen fast enough.
This is just one example of how stall characteristics win fights. Being a verticle fighter requires more then an ability to zoom and decent stall recovery, it requires the ability to use even the smallest stall to get an angle. The spit9s verticle ability is set up around being a BnZ fighter more then being a stall fighter.
-pellik
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Originally posted by humble
I'm responding to his comments on "full stall" evasives to force an overshoot....minimium vertical speed for a 38 is about 120...if he's going to full flaps edge of stall hes at 80 or less. Obviously if your in a stallfight your biggest strength is getting the fight slow (although I dont think you csn out turn a spit in a 38)...The spitty cant slow down as fast as the 38 and the 38 can maximize its turn capability with flaps thruout the 80-180 speed range better than the spitty can...normally what happens is the spitty is going 175 and the 38 walks the flaps from 185 down thru 150 while the spitty is still at 165-170...now the spitty is toast...he's giving a plane form shot if he continues his turn...he cant scrub enough to reverse without giving a plane form shot and if he goes vertical he giving the 38 a tracking shot. The spitty is being out turned because its to fast most of the time...not because a 38 will outturn it...
As for fighting in the vertical...38 is one of the best but 109 and spit are both in the same league (IMO)...again pilot skill is the biggest factor...not the plane.
What I'm trying to stress is that the spit is in E state trouble the whole time. If he scrubs E to get away from the 38s inside reversal the 38 pilot can just reverse into a high yo-yo. If the spit pilot continues to scrub E the stall speeds help the 38 as it performs better during the stall. Even the most talented spit pilots tend to look for HO shots throughout these maneuvers. As the fight progresses the spit has to chose between getting too fast to turn inside the 38 with or without a throttle cut, creating a game of dangerous overshoots, or to get so slow as to completely commit to the fight, in which case the 38 can just go nose up and force the spit to back off from something he can't follow. If the spit gets so slow as to manage to cut in behind my 38 he is usually too slow to manage himself in the insuing verticle scissors, giving up at least one close range canopy shot. Good gunnery on the part of the 38 pilot (missing these snap shots is what usually costs me the fight) combined with the ability to always get at least one shot on the spit, can make the 38 the better ride in a turn fight.
-pellik
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Originally posted by clouds
I think the best in the vertical is 109-G10.
It is the fastest (so you can reposition afther the merge) and climbs also the best of all but it is not for turn fights but in the vertical plane.
The more you go high and the more it runs.
You're confusing climb rate with vertical performance.
ack-ack
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Originally posted by Flyboy
the spit9 is a monster in the vertical. hendles perfectly on the stall speed.
when i fly the spit9 i use it allmost exclusivly in the vertical.
it just doesnt seem like that because 90% or so od the players who use it dont know how
P-38 easily out performs the Spitfire Mk IX in the vertical.
ack-ack
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Originally posted by humble
I'm responding to his comments on "full stall" evasives to force an overshoot....minimium vertical speed for a 38 is about 120...if he's going to full flaps edge of stall hes at 80 or less.
That's the great thing about the P-38. You can loop it with as little as 100mphIAS. You'll stall out as you go over the top but the stall with bring the nose down to complete the loop. The stall loop is a wonderful thing.
ack-ack
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Originally posted by clouds
Rgr I completely agree with you but I would like to see all this theories made on the paper flying in a real AH arena ;) :aok
Watch any of the films Murdr, pellik or I have made. The tactics that I've mentioned in this thread are the ones I use to great success in the MA, so I think it's gone beyond the 'paper theory' stage. YMMV.
ack-ack
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Ack-Ack, Hate 2b a spoilsport re ur discussions, however, I thought that u'd like to know that I M UNABLE TO D/L ANY OF UR FILMS due to the following error msg:
The page can not be found.
HTTP Error 404, file or directory not found.
Internet Information Services (IIS)
I'm able to access 479th Films Library, d/l any & all Murdr's films,
however ur films generate the above msg :(
Regards,
Happy1 :D
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hmm let me put it this way.. i have never fought a p38 from a CO E status and lost.
but hey, maybe im just too damn good :D :rolleyes:
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If you have any other link showing aerial tactics or camcorder footage took during an AH merge please post it so I'll download it.
Thanks