Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: hitech on September 14, 2004, 11:39:15 AM
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These are the current settings in the system. All charts are based on the smallest country having 100 players.
(http://www.hitechcreations.com/hitech/currenteny.jpg)
New settings.
(http://www.hitechcreations.com/hitech/neweny.jpg)
In addition we will be changing the minimum total players before the ENY becomes active from 140 to 200.
HiTech
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Cool, will be interesting to see the impact.
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Just to make sure I am reading this correctly. The modified system limits slightly less for a small advantage in numbers but more for a large advantage?
Zazen
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So it looks like a steeper climb that starts at 135 over 100 instead of 115 over 100 and peaks at ENY 48 when the number hits 225 over 100 instead of 235 over 100.
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am i reading this correctly that it takes longer to affect med. ENY rides, but when it kicks in, it affects 'em faster?
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Sorry I don't really follow.
If the low-number country has about 100 players, would the x-axis represent the disparity between low country and outnumbering country?
If thats the case, then when ENY *does* kick in at 200, bam we're at 38ish ENY right off the bat?
I dont think I'm seeing this right..
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HiTech
Just to see if I understand this correctly, does this mean ENY kicks in once a country has 35 more people than the smallest country?
Hammer
netAces.org (http://www.netaces.org) - Tips, Tactics and More!
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No xHammeRx: The numbers are just an example. It depends on the percentage wrather than numbers. I.E. take the player count in the small country , then divide your country by the smallest. I.E. int this example smallest is 100.
So if your country has 135 it would be 135/100.
HiTech
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To me it looks like until 'your' country has twice the smallest country's numbers the penalty is slightly lighter than before. But, once you reach 2 to 1, the penalty is larger under the new system. Is this correct?
Zazen
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Originally posted by Zazen13 To me it looks like until 'your' country has twice the smallest country's numbers the penalty is slightly lighter than before. But, once you reach 2 to 1, the penalty is larger under the new system. Is this correct?
It looks to me like the lower graph crosses above the top graph at around 190/100. So yeah, basically the punishment is relatively lighter until you have a 1.9:1 ratio, after which it becomes increasingly severe until it reaches the upper boundary.
This should give some more leeway to marginal but not overwhelming numbers advantages, which I think really encompass most of the complaining we've seen. It also puts a serious penalty on uberhordes. Sunday nights will become relatively more difficult for Rooks, though I suspect it won't do anything more than slow the steamroll.
-- Todd/Leviathn
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HiTech,
I'm not sure this is the place for it, but I was wondering if the time delay for switching countries could be lessened or, prefferably, removed when switching to the lowest number country. I doubt spying would be that large an issue as most people so inclined probably have multiple accounts already.
It would be nice for the people who are really dedicated to a particular ride to always be able to switch so as to get their ride. As it is now they can switch once and then if the numbers in their new country grow over the next hour or two they cannot switch to the low country to get their ride.
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So is it still active ... when all three countrys are below 100 players each ???
Or does this still go by total numbers ?
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Originally posted by Dead Man Flying
It looks to me like the lower graph crosses above the top graph at around 190/100. So yeah, basically the punishment is relatively lighter until you have a 1.9:1 ratio, after which it becomes increasingly severe until it reaches the upper boundary.
This should give some more leeway to marginal but not overwhelming numbers advantages, which I think really encompass most of the complaining we've seen. It also puts a serious penalty on uberhordes. Sunday nights will become relatively more difficult for Rooks, though I suspect it won't do anything more than slow the steamroll.
-- Todd/Leviathn
It also doesn't kick in until there's at least a 40% or so disparity. As opposed to a 20% or so disparity under the old system, that is a big improvement in my opinion.
Zazen
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Thanks. % makes a lot of sense.
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thanks HT for taking the time to analyze the impacts of ENY and make adjustments to it.
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Originally posted by kj714
thanks HT for taking the time to analyze the impacts of ENY and make adjustments to it.
pffft.....they said the eny system would be tweaked when it first came out.
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Ironically, the new ENY curve is very similar to this graph:
(http://www.flightsims.info/datas/users/1-ahiq.jpg)
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In an environment this large and dynamic, the ENY limiter needed time to be observed for its positive and negative results. This tweek to it is another validation that Hitech knows what he is doing. I know it is hard, but I wish we could be a little more patient and let the man do what he is very good at.
Ultimatly our FUN is in the best interests of his profit margine and enjoyment of the community with us.
-thanks for the adjustment Hitech-:)
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Touché Rolex! har har har...
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Originally posted by Elfie
pffft.....they said the eny system would be tweaked when it first came out.
Yeah, so?
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Uh. Well. Okay. ENY, ONY, or INY, me fly, me shoot, me die, me replane.
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Originally posted by Zazen13
It also doesn't kick in until there's at least a 40% or so disparity. As opposed to a 20% or so disparity under the old system, that is a big improvement in my opinion.
Zazen
So would it be safe to say that the ENY System isn't ...
"deeply and irrevocably flawed at its core"
and it also isn't ....
"fundamentally flawed and presumptuous"
and all it took was some patience for it to be ...
"a big improvement in my opinion"
Hmmmmmmmmmmm ... ;) :D
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Originally posted by kj714
Yeah, so?
Your original post came across like you thought HTC wasnt going to adjust the ENY limiter and that you were surprised by this post when in fact HiTech said it would be watched closely and tweaked as necessary.
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I havent followed all these new discusions and ideas about dissabling planes depending on player balance, but, why to dissable planes when you can perk them?
And a final note, surely already pointed by some one. If team A is obliterating and massively outnumbering team B, dissabling team A La7s (as an example) will be of no help at all for team B. But dissabing 110s, Typhs, P47s, P51Ds, F4U1Ds, P38s and buffs will have an inmediate and very noticeable impact. How about using OBJ instead of ENY?
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perk, ENY or OBJ, whatever system you use, you really can't control which team is really outnumbered, you only can control which team has more players. When some team has noticeable numbers advantage over the other two, it ends usually in an alliance against the most populated team, the result is that the outnumbered team is just the team with numbers advantage.
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Thanks for the info HT. It is much appreciated :)
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Originally posted by Elfie
Your original post came across like you thought HTC wasnt going to adjust the ENY limiter and that you were surprised by this post when in fact HiTech said it would be watched closely and tweaked as necessary.
Nope, just saying thanks.
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So, ENY will kick in when a country has 40% more players, when the total online is 200.
Ok, that will work fine if one has faith in the ENY concept. It doesn't seem to get people to switch sides though. We've seen over the past few weeks that it doesn't. The hordes will still up high ENY slowbies. And players who don't like the ENY system will still not like it.
I think what may help players feel better about the ENY system is a new programmer key command (like ctrl-i, for frame rates and memory usage) that would pop up the country numbers and the current ENY percent and ENY value. Then we as players could monitor the team strengths and current ENY value. (If we wanted to keep our ponies and 262's, we would fly them away from the front when we saw that we couldn't reup in them.)
If it looked like the game was approaching ENY time, I'm fairly sure guys would start thinking about changing sides. Maybe.
But, it's the after-the-fact implimentation of ENY that I think really riles the players up. All of a sudden, you try to up your favorite ride to defend a base, and up pops ENY. I wonder how many slammed keyboards have been a reaction to that.
If the players are given more "control" over how to even the teams, I'm pretty sure the guys will take more control. It's really no fun blowing away a country with half the numbers.
If a squad CO sees ENY approaching, they can tell their guys to switch. If guys log on after and don't see their buddies anywhere, they can see what country people are at by looking at the roster.
And if you're flying along in your favorite low ENY aircraft, and you hit the above proposed ENY key command and see ENY is now 15, you'll know it's time to protect your aircraft and run.
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you're aware right-clicking on the clipboard map and left-clicking on country status will bring up the eny-limiter data?
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Originally posted by kj714
Nope, just saying thanks.
My bad then :)
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Originally posted by SlapShot
So would it be safe to say that the ENY System isn't ...
"deeply and irrevocably flawed at its core"
and it also isn't ....
"fundamentally flawed and presumptuous"
and all it took was some patience for it to be ...
"a big improvement in my opinion"
Hmmmmmmmmmmm ... ;) :D
No, it is still deeply flawed at it's core. This change just makes it have less of an impact. So, the flawed system doesn't effect as many people as often as it did before, that's where the improvement is. Nothing will change the fact that it is flawed, until a new, more comprehensive system that also takes into account the disposition of forces replaces it.
Zazen
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Originally posted by Shane
you're aware right-clicking on the clipboard map and left-clicking on country status will bring up the eny-limiter data?
Ah, cool. Learn something new every day. Thanks. A programmer key with the same info would be nice though. Wishfull thinking.
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Originally posted by Elfie
My bad then :)
No worries!:)
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Anything to curb the constant whining of the skill-challenged / historic based / we must have numbers squadrons is great. WTG HTC.
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The ENY process = Social Engineering.
By its definition, attempting to engineer human nature will be flawed. The best we can hope for is a tuneing of the process to the point that we ignore it, but incorporate it emotionally as a game feature. In the best of cases, over time an evolution is reached that we emotionally look forward to immersing
ourselves in.
ENY still has a ways to go and shows a lot of promise. It would be interesting to see some of Hitech's future tollgates for this process to see where he is going. ENY looks like part of evolving the game into an expanded experience.
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Originally posted by bustr
The ENY process = Social Engineering.
By its definition, attempting to engineer human nature will be flawed.
Nice to know someone else besides me paid attention to those long psycho-sociology lectures in graduate school. ;)
Zazen
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Ha! Mr. HiTech, I say next time your gunna change something just do it and dont tell anyone, that way, everybody will feel like something is different, but will not know why. If it works you will know, and seems like you should be the one to notice if its working or not. your computers (player whine monitor) should be lower around 25%, instead of the usual 88% whine factor , you know that big red strip on the side of your monitor, that notifies you if its safe for you to log on to AH2, message boards, or when you feel really brave to enter the MA and say hi! Hey its all good.
We (well some of us) are gunna help you people figure this out, Not by whining our (most of us) arses off, but, by dealing with them to get to the end result. The Initial Whiner Flak that flies before people give the (test changes) a chance is what I'm talking about. Please make all the changes you want to the game(hehe,, like you need my permission) , they may turn out good or may turn out bad, but its the end results thats added or removed from the game that matters. thats how its gotta work to improve the game.
ok who moved the nudie bar? now thats unforgivable! put it back and every thing will be just fine! ahem.... <-- whine
disclosure: I'm not saying anyone in this post is whining! <--- wheww....
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Tactic. I think you are seriously under estimating the AH Community.
As for the eny system...Effectively and practicaly Fine tuning it is going to be impossible.
It will either be active or not. Therefore it will sometimes be ignored (Not active per settings) or it will be dispized (Too active to please the players who want to fly certian AC)
The system by nature takes a tangible tool from the effected players hands. This is what makes the system disliked by some.
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tactic,
I noticed one thing missing in AH2. Hitech removed all of the nudist camps in the high hidden valleys. I used to find em by accident when I would skid in with a dead engine. Thats where the Swedish non-Bikini team was hanging out.
I want those nudie camps back. Makes up for how bad I am at this game.:)
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So:
Largest country 138
Smallest country 100
Middle country >100 & <138
This gives us approximately 350 players on line. This is OK!
If:
Largest country 100
middle country 80
smallest country 50
What does the graph look like?
You see...at this number there is physically not enough players in the arena to reset it. Yet any cooperation at all between the small and medium countries creates a gang-bang.
I submit that the Eny "Kickin" total number of 200 is too low. From playing expierence, 350 might be a better guess. The numbers problem was really only evident on Sundays when numbers of 425 + were playing.
This also only addresses one part of the current problem.
Plane and building hardness - Is this to be scaled as Hitech indicated it might be? If so....big problem.
Perked rides - The cost of perked planes needs to be scaled at a lesser rate than it currently is when Eny Limiter is in effect. What does the graph of Perked costs versus Fields owned and player numbers look like?