Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: SFRT - Frenchy on September 14, 2004, 12:03:07 PM
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USA getting their butt kicked there, seems like they are fighting with both hands tied in the back. Marines had to retreat from Fallujah, as soon as they were fighting back, Iraqies used collateral damages has anti-US propaganda. The enemy is increasing attacks against US Army even in American controled areas.
Will that go against Bush for his re-election? Will USA have to withdraw? Will USA try to roll over the mess to UN?
... or is it the medias that over exagerate the situation in Iraq over a couple of isolated trouble spots, and USA will stabilize Iraq?
Is this article justified? (http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1101040920-695820,00.html)
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Originally posted by SFRT - Frenchy
... or is it the medias that over exagerate the situation in Iraq over a couple of isolated trouble spots, and USA will stabilize Iraq?
BINGO.
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I don't think the media is exaggerating the issue. Even the military estimates that the number of insurgents is now two or three times greater than they first thought.
Hell, today they knocked out power to the whole country.
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Talk to anybody that has spent time recently in Iraq. The picture painted by the media is FAR diff that what is realitly.
From watching the news it looks like a never ending battleground where the U.S. are backpedaling on their heels as the majority of Iraqi's are attacking them.
Not even close the the truth. Don't let the 10second sound bytes fool you, MOST of the people in Iraq are happy, and in general NOT trying to kill our troops.
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Our troops will continue to hang in there, kill the bad guys when they show themselves and avoid needless killing. Elections will take place in January and we can begin to reduce our presence. Hard line Muslms will then attempt to overthrow the new democratic Iraqi government and the there may be civil war. The US will support the democratically elected government and it will eventually win the war.
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I do not think that the situation in Iraq today is a debacle, or that it will not work out well, and I plan on voting for Dubya in November.
BUT...
I must say I am less than pleased with the way our military is prosecuting the war with the terrorists in Iraq right now. Notice I do not use words like rebels and insurgents? The predominantly non-Iraqi militant-muslims that we are engaging over there are blowing up civilians as at the Police Station yesterday. Call a spade a spade for once.
What I am worried about is that I am seeing hints that our military has politics as an overriding concern as opposed to the safety of it's soldiers and the deaths of it's opponenets. Sounds a lot like what happened in Vietnam, where a Thud would be receiving AAA from a building and was ordered NOT to blow up said building because there might be some political fallout. If our soldiers are not free to return fire in an overwhelming way they should be pulled out. They are there to kill people and blow stuff up, they are not policemen, and should not be used as peacekeepers.
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I would agree with Elbert, alas I fear that if US withdraw, Democratic Iraq will fall (even with "American advisors" help) and the war (money and men loss) would have been fough for very little results.
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The US will support the democratically elected government and it will eventually win the war.
Maybe. But I wouldn't count on it - I think the US has dug a great big hole for itself in Iraq and has pulled us in with it.
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Originally posted by flyingaround
Talk to anybody that has spent time recently in Iraq. The picture painted by the media is FAR diff that what is realitly.
.
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Originally posted by Edbert MOL
What I am worried about is that I am seeing hints that our military has politics as an overriding concern as opposed to the safety of it's soldiers and the deaths of it's opponenets. Sounds a lot like what happened in Vietnam,
I have that same feeling.
We had a bunch of the truly bad guys flatout cornered in the Imam Ali Mosque. They had nowhere to go. We let them get away clean.
That was stupid.
THAT was VietNamish.
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Originally posted by Toad
I have that same feeling.
We had a bunch of the truly bad guys flatout cornered in the Imam Ali Mosque. They had nowhere to go. We let them get away clean.
That was stupid.
THAT was VietNamish.
Exactamundo! Within a day of his release his 'militia' (terrorists to the man) was at it again, killing civilians in the name of Allah.
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Originally posted by Toad
I have that same feeling.
We had a bunch of the truly bad guys flatout cornered in the Imam Ali Mosque. They had nowhere to go. We let them get away clean.
That was stupid.
THAT was VietNamish.
I agree too Toad, but had we, or the new Iraqi government destroyed that Mosque, the majority of the Shiites would have come down harder than what has happened.
My bet is Sadr, and his terrorist band will be waxed (him specifically) within the next month.
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Bodhi, they weren't going anywhere.
Would you rather have them starving in the Mosque for 6 months or out running around town shooting things up and planting mines by the road?
I'd have built a wall around that place.
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If the military has politics as its main concerns...
Then maybe we should blame our policy makers, instead of our Military, for after all thier just following orders.
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we are going to do a bit of political war..which is very sad,...blame it on Oprah..
but wehat i recenlty read ..
for every one death of our military soldier..(which I hate)
50 terrorists insurgents die..(which is good)
let them bleed to death
Allah Ackbar
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Originally posted by AKIron
Our troops will continue to hang in there, kill the bad guys when they show themselves and avoid needless killing. Elections will take place in January and we can begin to reduce our presence. Hard line Muslms will then attempt to overthrow the new democratic Iraqi government and the there may be civil war. The US will support the democratically elected government and it will eventually win the war.
:D Great minds, an' all that, wot?
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What flyingaround said......4 stars.
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You have to put things into perspective when it comes to Iraq.
1. Faluja.....The US forces did not want to pull out nore did they want to give in the Al Sadr's forces. These were CHOICES made by the current govt. running Iraq.
2. Armegeden.....I've heard the storys from the media being painted like pure armegeden and anarchy over there. The truth is the stats don't back this up. Yes we reached the 1000th casualty wich is sad but it no were comes close to comparing to the actual pre-war predictions.
I even heard a DNC talking head referr to Iraq as "worse than veitnam". HOW IN THE WORLD CAN YOU MAKE THE COMPARISON. There is nothing remotly close to tyeing the two wars together.
3. The Iraqies themselves. Most are good hard working people just like you and me, they are glad Sadam is gone and will be even more happy when they are a free country without US troops on the soil.
The insurgency is a SMALL group of minority poeple that are made up of America haters and former bathists that want to regain power. They are getting desperate and know that they can shake things up especially with the election coming up.
Just my point of view feel free to disagree.
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I fear Toad is right.
But as far as the election goes, who would you rather try and deal with the situation? Bush or Kerry? I gotta go with Bush. Why? The bad guys in Iraq want Kerry to win. Not because they will stop fighting, but because then they figure they stand a chance of winning.
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Toad you're wrong. WE didnt let anyone go.
We were bound by the orders of the Iraqi govt. There was a peace deal provided by Al Sistanit, one of the most powerfull clerics there, and the US forces had to accept that.
The Iraqies put the value of their shrine over the win of the battle. If you think about it we will have to fight them again but at least they never got one up on us.
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Rome wasn't built in a day
sorry but Iraq ain't a 30 minute sitcom..
in time, it will turn out fine - between now and then we have many more cheekboness to kill with losing as few of ours as possible
Bush winning in Nov secures at least 4 more years of US/coalition support in the region - by then even a handsomehunkcrat shouldn't be able to screw it up
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It's seriously overblown. It reminds me of a popular Don Henley song.
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Originally posted by SFRT - Frenchy
I would agree with Elbert, alas I fear that if US withdraw, Democratic Iraq will fall (even with "American advisors" help) and the war (money and men loss) would have been fough for very little results.
i agree.
you see there once was this little country called iran that was once at war with Iraq. they might want to settle an old score and take iraq either through sending more terrorist to aid a civil war or just overrun it with their military.
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Not quite that simple Skull, that they wouldn't be able to do... but a more clandestine invasion of Iranian agents supporting a Shi'ite theocracy after the US has left.... Bingo
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"what ever can go wrong will";)
Mr. Stang
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I don't think anything has gone as hoped in Iraq since Bush's "Mission Accomplished". I doubt a year ago they ever dreamed that they'd still have the number of troops there, the number (ever growing) of militants and the amount of increasing violence. Prisoner abuse scandles and not to mention never finding any WMD"s which was the excuse for the war in the first place.
Something like 112 kidnappings since April alone, going real well.
Bush has his puppet government in place but the Iraq's hate him as much as the do the US. The chance of elections in January is impossible if the current levels of violence continue and the local police keep on getting blown up.
Plus how long can the US sustain the Iraq mission still running at over 4 billion a month with little contribution from anyone else since the coalition is almost non exisitent. I understand that in todays money the war in Iraq is almost equal to the cost of the Vietnam war per month.
Iraq is a mess. Easy to get in, hard to get out. Anyone who still thinks democracy and security will still work for that country is kidding themselves.
:..-Gixer
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Originally posted by VOR
It's seriously overblown. It reminds me of a popular Don Henley song.
Agreed. If we listened to allthe media raports and took what EVERYTHING they said as accurate.
We would beleive that Washington DC, NYC. San Fran were nothing short of deathtraps.
Well I've been to NYC Including Harlem at 3 AM.
Nobody bothered me
Couple weeks ago I spent the weekend IN Washington DC which last I heard had the largest crime/murder rate in the nation Walked the streets in the late late evening hours I really got to experiance the city and not just toured the attractions. I found nothing more then VERY friendly and VERY helpful people there. Truely a wonderful city and I would encourage anyone who hasnt stayed ther to do so.
now I've never been to san fran but I cant imagine it being much different then either NY or DC.
The Media blows everything out of proportion. Its what sells. Particularly "Dirty laundry"
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Originally posted by flyingaround
Not even close the the truth...MOST of the people in Iraq are happy
:aok
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Iraq is a mess. Easy to get in, hard to get out. Anyone who still thinks democracy and security will still work for that country is kidding themselves.
typical crap from you linguine spinned liberlas..GROW A PAIR..
NO ONE from the Bush Admin EVER said thsi was a Cake walk...
Bunch of player hatn female dogs for sure
LMFAO...why isnt Iraq all peaceful now!!?..whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
whaaaaaaaaa
Plus how long can the US sustain the Iraq mission still running at over 4 billion a month with little contribution from anyone else since the coalition is almost non exisitent.
again crap from u gixer..I love it when you call anyone helping usa "nonexisitent"..im sure there families apreciate your caring thoughts
oh yaa..France and Russai arent there...I guess we didnt pay them enuff money?..ya...
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Drediock, theres a place in DC called Anacostia. I'm betting money you weren't wandering around there at night.
DC has its bad areas, never seen a tourist in them.
-SW
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So you guys belive things are going well in Iraq because Bush say's so? Try and think outside the square and think how you would feel if what was going on in Iraq was going on in your country and you had another countries army ruling you.
The loss of life,maimed and wounded in Iraq is a tragedy and the reasons for the war and it's execution no matter how well Bush and Rumsfield say it's going, is simply obscene and is one the worst displays and miss use of political and military power in modern history.
...-Gixer
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Originally posted by Gixer
So you guys belive things are going well in Iraq because Bush say's so? Try and think outside the square and think how you would feel if what was going on in Iraq was going on in your country and you had another countries army ruling you.
The loss of life,maimed and wounded in Iraq is a tragedy and the reasons for the war and it's execution no matter how well Bush and Rumsfield say it's going, is simply obscene and is one the worst displays and miss use of political and military power in modern history.
...-Gixer
No, I think things are going well in Iraq because I talk to my friends who are there. Do you think things are going poorly in Iraq because the NY Times tells you so?
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No I think things are going badly in Iraq because you still have over 130,000 troops there with no way out in sight, costing over 4 billion a month, a ever growing number of militants,no controll in some cities,kidnappings and people still being blown up in large numbers every day.
Look at how many aid agencies are in Iraq, none. Because it's still too violent for them to operate there.
The Bush admin had a great plan for taking the country which was always going to be the "cake walk" anyway. They seemed to have no plan at all on how to secure and run the country after that.
Ever wonder why there's so little support for the Iraq war and occupancy by other countries? Most countries aren't even contributing financially let alone militarily.
...-Gixer
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Originally posted by Gixer
Ever wonder why there's so little support for the Iraq war and occupancy by other countries? Most countries aren't even contributing financially let alone militarily.
...-Gixer
No. They're still ticked that we interrupted their oil for food profiteering.
Look at how many aid agencies are in Iraq, none.
Ahhh, so you DO get your info from NY Times. I'm sure all the aid agencies that are currently operating in Iraq would be pleased to know they are not really there. You should try getting your OWN information from sources that are actually there. It's usually more accurate than your moveon.org talking points.
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Off topic
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Originally posted by Gixer
LMAO
What and that Bush wanted all the oil for himself? LOL
...-Gixer
Excellent response. Very factual.
Just like your last statement.
Originally posted by Martlet
No. They're still ticked that we interrupted their oil for food profiteering.
Ahhh, so you DO get your info from NY Times. I'm sure all the aid agencies that are currently operating in Iraq would be pleased to know they are not really there. You should try getting your OWN information from sources that are actually there. It's usually more accurate than your moveon.org talking points.
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Originally posted by Martlet
Excellent response. Very factual.
Just like your last statement.
Ditto and yours. Seems you only believe in the media when suits.
...-Gixer
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Originally posted by Dowding
Maybe. But I wouldn't count on it - I think the US has dug a great big hole for itself in Iraq and has pulled us in with it.
Same, but hopefully the Liberal govt. will lose power next month, and our diggers will come home at Xmas.
Tronsky
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Originally posted by Gixer
Ditto and yours. Seems you only believe in the media when suits.
...-Gixer
Ahhh, I understand now. You just can't read. I specifically stated my information wasn't obtained from the media.
Next.......
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Originally posted by Martlet
Ahhh, I understand now. You just can't read. I specifically stated my information wasn't obtained from the media.
Next.......
But you still genuinely believe that Bush dosn't want any of the oil for himself or his buddies and is going to give 100% of all the profits from oil sales back to the Iraqies?
And that the reason why Iraq has little international support is because Bush ruined their oil for food scam. Thats pretty nieve.
...-Gixer
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By the way I've visited moveon.org once or twice about as much as I've visited any pro Bush sites. Wouldn't waste my time with such troll.
...-Gixer
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Originally posted by Gixer
But you still genuinely believe that Bush dosn't want any of the oil for himself or his buddies and is going to give 100% of all the profits from oil sales back to the Iraqies?
And that the reason why Iraq has little international support is because Bush ruined their oil for food scam. Thats pretty nieve.
...-Gixer
Another very strong argument. I did notice that since the last round of facts you tossed out were debunked you've moved from a factual argument to "you're just wrong".
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Originally posted by Gixer
By the way I've visited moveon.org once or twice about as much as I've visited any pro Bush sites. Wouldn't waste my time with such troll.
...-Gixer
You don't seem to waste your time checking your facts, either.
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Originally posted by Gixer
So you guys belive things are going well in Iraq because Bush say's so?
No, I don't think good things are happening there because the Prez said so, but I can assure you good things are happening. Don't confuse enthusiasm for the cause with leader or hero worship.
Originally posted by Gixer
The loss of life,maimed and wounded in Iraq is a tragedy and the reasons for the war and it's execution no matter how well Bush and Rumsfield say it's going, is simply obscene and is one the worst displays and miss use of political and military power in modern history.[/B]
Agree with the loss of life being a tragedy. As for the entire thing being something of a gross mismanagement and blundering catastrophe, well, I'd have to ask you this: on what information are you basing your conclusions? Secondly, (and no offense intended) who are you to make such a judgement in the first place?
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Originally posted by AKS\/\/ulfe
Drediock, theres a place in DC called Anacostia. I'm betting money you weren't wandering around there at night.
DC has its bad areas, never seen a tourist in them.
-SW
Lmao you dont know me very well do you?
I grew up in a VERY rough neighborhood. used to be called "Little Harlem" back in the height of the racial tensions in the early to mid 70's. Riots were an almost daily occurance. Im no stranger to seeing guns,( more then one even having been pointed at me) knives, pipes, baseball bats and a host of other homemade weapentry.
Not that Im proud of it but I myself spent time in a street gang.
There isnt a place I've found where Im afraid to walk.
Its all in the attitude.
If you act like a potential victim (scared) you increase your chances of becomming one tenfold.
Im sure DC has some shady areas just like 1,000 other towns. In fact I probably saw a few of them. For example I noticed that not all of Pennsy Ave is filled with bright clean buildings. Particularly the farther you get away from the white house. There were a few other streets I walked and drove around that I could telll you what they were if I had the map in front of me. But there were a bunch where you could tell the rich folk definately did not live.
But Walking around in rough areas doesnt bother me. I grew up and went to school having to go through such areas.
Still, by and large people just leave you alone.
Most people, are just people.
Now Im not going to say that its AS safe as walking through the suburbs. Particularly if you dont know how to act.
but to get back on topic and to my point is its really only a very small percentage of the people who are a real danger. Just like in Iraq
It is the media that makes it seem worse then it really is
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Originally posted by AKS\/\/ulfe
Drediock, theres a place in DC called Anacostia. I'm betting money you weren't wandering around there at night.
-SW
BTW just where is this area located.
Would like to dig out the map and see if I did happen to wander in there. I thought I covered pretty much most of it.
Not all ..but most
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Originally posted by Gixer
So you guys belive things are going well in Iraq because Bush say's so? Try and think outside the square and think how you would feel if what was going on in Iraq was going on in your country and you had another countries army ruling you.
The loss of life,maimed and wounded in Iraq is a tragedy and the reasons for the war and it's execution no matter how well Bush and Rumsfield say it's going, is simply obscene and is one the worst displays and miss use of political and military power in modern history.
...-Gixer
While we dont have another country ruling us alot of the same things that are happening there happen here.
We still probably lost far fewer there then say LA did in the same time span.
What we keep hearing about is whats going on in a few areas and not the country as a whole.
Now Im not going ot say everything is all sugar and cream.
But for sure it isnt the utter disaster some proclaim it to be either
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double post. move on
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On pondering the subject I cant help but chuckle at the thought that had Clinton.. or no better yet
Had Gore been president and did the same thing this exact same arguements would be being made ibut by opposite people.
Excluding me who was in favor of going into Irraq even if the reason was given was "because its tuesday" LMAO
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(http://pub.tv2.no/multimedia/na/archive/00134/Gorge_W_Bush_134853a.JPG)
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Drediock,
Of course I don't know you, just the same as you don't know me.
Anacostia is located in SE, on the MD side of the Anacostia river. Just after you cross the Phillip Sousa bridge on Pennsylvannia avenue heading south, you are in Anacostia. Thats the more public area, if you take a left or right on any of the following streets up to about 18th St - you are in the ghetto (serious, project housing). Can't drive through that area without seeing atleast two or three burnt out cars.
Its not so bad anymore since they placed a Police Station there, but its still bad. Gun shots can be heard every night.
-SW
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It's like where I live in L.A., I walk the streets, even at night. Nothing happened to me yet, mostly because the drug dealers rule the streets and "protect their neighbors". Alas, everytime I go out, 3 or 4 people bug you out for cash, and it's a matter of time till one gets upset and stabs you, or shoot you.
Plus there's the occasional gang war, with being victim of a drive by, or simply being mistaken for somebody else (like my dead neighbor).
My folks from France visited me, thought it was a nice neighborhood, loved my neighbors. They thought I was exagerating till one night a guy was guned down next to my doorstep by an automatic weapon.
Drediock, don't kid yourself, if you are really from a rough neighborhood, you know that you never turn your back to the street, because you are never safe.
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What part of LA Frenchy?
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Originally posted by SFRT - Frenchy
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Drediock, don't kid yourself, if you are really from a rough neighborhood, you know that you never turn your back to the street, because you are never safe.
Actually its not the street that I really concerned myself with.
Its the side of the sidwalk away from the street.
Even today when I walk down a sidewalk I tend to walk closer to the cars then the buildings.
And late night on an apparantly empty street. I walk down the center of the street. I can usually hear and then dodge whatever comes down the street. Its the ambushes from the allys and bushes that concern me
Better SA
But again you know attitude has alot to do with it. Not looking afraid. and not being afraid to look back when someones looking at you Nod and say "sup"
Its the ones that act all afraid or overplay the toughness that tend to get jumped
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Originally posted by SFRT - Frenchy
It's like where I live in L.A., I walk the streets, even at night. Nothing happened to me yet, mostly because the drug dealers rule the streets and "protect their neighbors". Alas, everytime I go out, 3 or 4 people bug you out for cash, and it's a matter of time till one gets upset and stabs you, or shoot you.
Plus there's the occasional gang war, with being victim of a drive by, or simply being mistaken for somebody else (like my dead neighbor).
My folks from France visited me, thought it was a nice neighborhood, loved my neighbors. They thought I was exagerating till one night a guy was guned down next to my doorstep by an automatic weapon.
Drediock, don't kid yourself, if you are really from a rough neighborhood, you know that you never turn your back to the street, because you are never safe.
Um then why does it say that you live in florida?:eek: Somebody was having a dream!.:D
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I'm living in South Central, at the border of Inglewood and Watts. Here is my guardian angel, Big Lips Dony. Poor guy died 2-3 months ago, got ran over by a car in front of my house.:(
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/82_1095355370_dony.jpg)