Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Citabria on September 15, 2004, 03:11:15 AM
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what control setup do you use?
I need a reference of people who are very good snapshot accuracy experts on their favorite hardware to fly with.
am thinking of getting the saitek x45 and ch usb pedals.
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saiteks are the flakiest tools I've used. I wouldn't recommend them unless you're ready to be repairing the trigger and hats and pots relatively often. Very cheap Made in Thirdworld plastic toy feel.
The X45 I found too heavy handed at the deadzone threshold to really pinpoint the plane's nose in any and every condition. It should be good if you fix that though.
There's something very oversquare about it that always got in the way instead of transmitting my commands quickly and naturaly.
Maybe the X52 will be an improvement... You do usually get full warranties with them though.
I also had a CH fighterstick and owing to its center precision, it was pretty easy to aim accurately with, but it otoh has nearly no spring resistance. The fit and finish is good and much better than the X45, but it's still plastic and it felt like it certainly would fail sooner or later when the parts would wear out, though it didn't happen in the few months I had it.
In this regard I'd recommend test-using a Cougar.
I don't know about pedals, but the CH are the only ones I've seen good feedback for.
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Hi Cit.
I have the setup you sugggest. In your other post you mentioned that you want very good behaviour concerning "center-force" and "spikyness".
About the spikes, the X45 is ok I guess.
But the spring in there is only good the first few hours of use. Afterwards there will be some resistance you have to get over. There are some suggestions on how to ease thta, I didnt try any up to now. But when you are looking for something like the FFB2 (tried that once too) the X45 is not going to be as good.
Maybe you can try a used X45 somewhere so you know what youre about to get.
CH Pedals are good, esp if you have used the twist-handle until now. Needs some getting used to, but it will become the better choice.
Maybe this helps.
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Ive done the MS twisty... and then upgraded to ch pedals with saitek x45..
it was a steep learning curve going from twisty to pedals so prepare for frustration..
IMO its worth it.. the control you have with pedals over twisty is superior in coordinated turns hammerheads etc.... Toe brakes for ground handling are a plus...
I use the rudder stick on the saitek throttle for flaps.. and have never turned back...
be advised a new saitek has a tough spring so getting used to the increased strength of the stick took some time also..
Chapsticking the base does help though.. (or petrolium jelly) (huh beavis huh huh :rolleyes: )
the major drawback is the spring/stick tension is more severe than any ms stick....
laser fly by wire from the MS stick seems superior to the White Knuckle Saitek seat of your pants feel..
Overall immersion is better with saitek though..
2 cents..
DoctorYo
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How about some screenshots of peoples pitch & roll slider screens. I think those have alot to do with snapshots, ie: LW planes.
CH Products all the way. The best hardware for serious flight jockeys.
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CH is the top o' the line (as I've mentioned before). Worth the money if you're in the hobby for awhile; not just AH but any flight sim. I also use the CH USB pedals for racing sims.
But it doesn't matter what gear you use if all you do is either (a) fly really fast in 262s or (b) chop throttle turn fight. A pencil glued to a couple of potentiometers will accomplish the same thing. :p
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Ive had a full saitek set, Full TM cougar set, A logitech twisty a Saitek twisty and now a full CH Set. Hell I even had one of the original TM sets back in 93? or so.
If you figure it out let me know. I will advise you to stay away from the cougar though. Modded up its a thing of beauty. but you have to be prepared to be in maintenance mode much of the time.
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I've had non FF MS twisty; Cougar and I'm currently using a X45.
The Cougar is crap. Pure Emporer's new clothes sydrome.
The X45 is OK. The software isn't half so good as the Cougar's; but it's less than a third of the price; and is more reliable. It uses a rocker switch on the throttle as a rudder control; which is a great idea; but poorly executed. I've mapped rudder to one of the thumbwheels as I did on the cougar; which is very nice.
Nicest action I've tried was a cordless logitech; but many posters cast doubt on logitech reliability; and it didn't have that many buttons.
Then again; I reckon that very soon Track-IR will be de rigeur for simming; which wil free up the hat switch for other uses; so suddenly less"button endowed" sticks become more attractive.
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On Saitek... I had a X36 from Saitek (refurb) and I used it for 3+ years before it started going out on me a couple months back. Others I've heard have had them die on them after a few months. Nice controllers, but something is severly lacking in the Saitek quality control department.
CH Products... Just startd using a full CH setup (Fighterstick, throttle, pedals) when my X36 started to go, been going for a month or two now. My biggest concerns were the Fighterstick doesn't have a lot of resistence to it. Makes it a little easier to over control, but I think I was able to make the adjustment. The Fighterstick is also HUGE. Again I was worred that I could reach the top 8 way hat with my thumb for views, it was a little uncomfortable at first but again I got used to it and I can fly my normal amount (1-2 hours a night) without any discomfort. Actually my biggest gripe about CH over the X36 is the throttle, I much prefered the rocking motion on the Saitek throttle to the sliding motion on the CH. I find that sometimes I accidently knock the throttle back in a dogfight and suddenly I'm not in WEP anymore. All in all though I like the CH stuff. If I could make my own, I would scale the stick down a little bit and add resistence, or a scalable resistence screw or somthing to it. But all in all a nice setup.
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Flame Bait? :lol
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I use the stiffer sticks, since starting with a PFCS in 96'. It had a very stiff feel that kept me on my lines better. Upgraded to the F22pro Hotas, and now to the Cougar.
Just what I'm used to but not the most important control for snapshots.
Rudder pedals are the most important for that regard, at least for me.
My rudder pedals are the CH pedals not the Pros. Movement that is controlled by a tapping motion will grant you more control then a sliding motion(when speaking of gunnery)
I don't lay my entire foot in the pedal just the balls of my feet, and my heels on the outside of the footbase. My toes now rest on the pedal and can help control the pressure of the rudder movement. This enables me to have a smooth controlled input especially in the first half of the movement band. Which is the range where most of your gunnery corrections will be in. Much more control then someone who is sliding their feet. Its not a realistic setup, and not even sure they make them anymore. But for snapshots I think its the best.
In AH:
Pitch: all 100s
Roll: all 100s
Yaw: all 100s
Drex
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I bought a Saitek X45 refurbed and it gave me some stiffness problems and when I called customer support they said they'd take it back and send me a replacement.
I think they have a great customer support system, which is better than a top of the line joystick that is expensive.
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I agree with Drex about the pedals; though sliding may be more realistic, I think that most of us automobile drivers out there already have a set of feet for which the "pivoting pedal" feels much more natural, and therefore precise.
As for the stick, of the new hardware, only the Cougar strikes me as not being mickey-mouse, but I don't feel like maintaining and modding like it seems like it must.
Beleive it or not, I still use 9-year old Thrustmaster gear (FLCS, WCS Mk II), with replacement parts bought on eBay from time to time, or from my priceless cache of "new old" TM parts (like pots, hats, boots, etc.)
I still recommend the ebay path for old flight gear as opposed to any of the new stuff...
-Llama
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ThrustMaster F-22 and F-16 TQS moded with the hats switches and the switch caps from the Cougar, and upgraded with the Stickworks digital chips. But I still suck.
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Im mostly using my 1st wingman ... i welded a post to a washer and installed it after the centering post broke . for some reason it has the best pots out of all my wingmans ,I have 3 of them 2 are spiky junk though .
and i use my old thrustmaster f-16 at work w/ peddles but it really needs an 8 way hat and 2 more buttons.
Isnt CH supposed to come out with a twisty stick ??? or did they bail on that idea ?
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I use the full CH Products USB setup. That includes the Pro Throttle, 568 Combatstick, and Pro Pedals. I've been using CH stuff in one form or another pretty much since I started in this hobby, and I switched over to USB a couple of years ago. I really prefer the lack of resistance and easy throw in CH controls over tight springs like those found in Thrustmaster sticks.
-- Todd/Leviathn
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"Isnt CH supposed to come out with a twisty stick ??? or did they bail on that idea ?"
they had one a few years ago. The Gamestick 3D. It was essentially just like the old MS Sidewinder Pro hoopety-twist sticks.
http://www.intelligamer.com/hardware/chgamestick/chgamestick.asp
Not a bad stick but after using a Pro Thottle, Pro peds and F16 fighterstick set up I found I can't use it for aircombat games at all. Far too limited in functionality.
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Originally posted by Soulyss
The Fighterstick is also HUGE. Again I was worred that I could reach the top 8 way hat with my thumb for views, it was a little uncomfortable at first but again I got used to it and I can fly my normal amount (1-2 hours a night) without any discomfort.
Alot of us use the 8-way hat on the throttle for views and the pinky button on the JS for the UP modifier. It is very nice once you get used to it. I use the 8-way hat on the JS for autopilot functions.
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I have an X45 with Ch pro pedals.......I am a lousey shot and I can confirm that twisties are infact easier to feather than pedals when lining up for a ruddered snap shot.
My son (Shift) flies MS side winder pro [the old one] and snap shots are easier on his rig.
However my set is now nearly 3 years old and support in the UK for Saitek is V good.
The stick........
I would wait for the X52 the X45 spring is stiff and the friction between spring cup and base is uneven. My X45 has always been heavily greased with a combination of candle wax and vaseline and I had tobed the spring in. There is a conversion by simply using cable ties to close the centre coil.
If you are heavy on the throttle lever you will eventually break it.
The X52 will feature a twisty so your instinctive use of the same on the MS will transfer more easily.
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I use the Microsoft twisty stick 2 because everything else is [SIZE=10]CRAP![/SIZE]
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i get many of my kills in snap shots..
been using the saitek cyborg series for 4+ years now..cheap as hell..replace it about evrery 6-9 months or so..FOr FREE..with Best buy warranty..
best 45buks ever spent.
I now use the Saitek Cyborg EVO...pretty lights on it with a few extra buttons..
I love twisty stiks..cause i play with my feet up
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I thought they fixed the wep situation so when you throttle down the wep stays on? ...it's a little off orignal subject, but I saw it metioned in a prior post. I think I'm correct about it being fixed. :) lmao. someone will let me know, im sure. :)
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I want to go out and get the full rudder setup as well, as I am planning on building a simpit.
I don't mind twisty sticks, its just that my style of flying I'd be inadvertantly applying rudder when I didn't need it. Which is why I went with the X45.
I do not think I'll be getting X52 as it doesn't have a rocker rudder, but we'll see if I try a demo.
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I use a Saitek Cyborg as well since I'm left-handed (it adjusts for lefties and righties), and I think they're pretty great for 19 bucks. They might not last as long as some of the others, but they're so cheap that you can just buy another.
The lowest model, which I use, comes with a trigger, 3 buttons up top, a hat-switch, a throttle paddle, and an adjustable palm-rest.
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Although I wouldn't consider myself a "very good snapshot accuracy expert" I use the exact same setup as Levi. Been awhile now, I'd never use anything else.
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Originally posted by moot
saiteks are the flakiest tools I've used. I wouldn't recommend them unless you're ready to be repairing the trigger and hats and pots relatively often. Very cheap Made in Thirdworld plastic toy feel.
The X45 I found too heavy handed at the deadzone threshold to really pinpoint the plane's nose in any and every condition. It should be good if you fix that though.
There's something very oversquare about it that always got in the way instead of transmitting my commands quickly and naturaly.
Maybe the X52 will be an improvement... You do usually get full warranties with them though.
I also had a CH fighterstick and owing to its center precision, it was pretty easy to aim accurately with, but it otoh has nearly no spring resistance. The fit and finish is good and much better than the X45, but it's still plastic and it felt like it certainly would fail sooner or later when the parts would wear out, though it didn't happen in the few months I had it.
In this regard I'd recommend test-using a Cougar.
I don't know about pedals, but the CH are the only ones I've seen good feedback for.
I have an X45 and the trigger is going out. How do I repair it?
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Originally posted by DipStick
Although I wouldn't consider myself a "very good snapshot accuracy expert" I use the exact same setup as Levi. Been awhile now, I'd never use anything else.
I also have the exact same set-up as Levi. I still can't fly worth a crap, but I enjoy alot of success in the 'shooting' department. I've used CH since 1992, my first set-up (analog) still worked fine until I replaced it a couple of years ago with the USB versions for Win XP compatability. CH may seem expensive but you won't have to replace/repair it...ever, basically. Buying a lesser set-up that requires replacement or repair every couple of years is more expensive and annoying in the long run.
Zazen
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Originally posted by GuyNoir
I use a Saitek Cyborg as well since I'm left-handed (it adjusts for lefties and righties), and I think they're pretty great for 19 bucks. They might not last as long as some of the others, but they're so cheap that you can just buy another.
The lowest model, which I use, comes with a trigger, 3 buttons up top, a hat-switch, a throttle paddle, and an adjustable palm-rest.
Cyborg 3d gold. Over a year. Not a prob.
But I'm really just wating for SLO to come into the thread and suggest Logitech. heh
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Alot of us use the 8-way hat on the throttle for views and the pinky button on the JS for the UP modifier. It is very nice once you get used to it. I use the 8-way hat on the JS for autopilot functions.
Yeah I thought about that, I had the joystick for a few weeks before I got the throttle, just long enough for me to get used to it. :) I may map the 8 way on the throttle and try to switch over but I've gotten used to the fighterstick now and there isn't any discomfort anymore, I rarely play for more than an hour or two at any given stretch anyway. :)
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I've gone through 2 TM Joysticks & 3 Throttles, 2 Saitek Joysticks/Throttles pairs, a CH Pro analog, and now CH Pro USB (as well as some real cheap crap). I am by far the happiest with the CH Pro USB. I gave up on stiffness a long time ago, and am not willing to trade precision and durability for anything.
BTW, Drex Sux.
eskimo
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CH pwns ALL.
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also a BK and also use the same setup as levi... I did use tmaster rudders but they don't make em anymore..
I use the ch stick but modified it with rubber bands to get it to be less wimpy. Useless without the rubber bands.
lazs
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Originally posted by Arlo
Cyborg 3d gold. Over a year. Not a prob.
But I'm really just wating for SLO to come into the thread and suggest Logitech. heh
I'm on #3 Cyborg 3D Gold USB, and the twisty is going into the crapper. I picked up a Cyborg EVO and found it to be garbage - too sensitive and hte scaling in AH is not enough to control it. It's just weird. Why the heck would they put the throttle there?
I've been making due with a horrible dead zone on the Cyborg 3D gold, especially twisty rudder.
Are the Cyborgs still on the market? I neeeeed to buy a new one... Being a south paw sucks. I'd buy an x45 or CH whatever in a heartbeat if they make left handed sticks.
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Originally posted by Octavius
I'm on #3 Cyborg 3D Gold USB, and the twisty is going into the crapper. I picked up a Cyborg EVO and found it to be garbage - too sensitive and hte scaling in AH is not enough to control it. It's just weird. Why the heck would they put the throttle there?
I've been making due with a horrible dead zone on the Cyborg 3D gold, especially twisty rudder.
Are the Cyborgs still on the market? I neeeeed to buy a new one... Being a south paw sucks. I'd buy an x45 or CH whatever in a heartbeat if they make left handed sticks.
Rudder deadzone? Never had that. This stick's been the bomb right outa the box, man. Smooth as silk .... no spikes. Guess I got the good one (that or the logitech pos I had before it makes any stick feel like gold) .... and no, they probably ain't available anymore.
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So the Cougar is less durable than an X45? That's surprising. I'm not hamhanded at all (or barely), and all 5-6 of the Saiteks I've had have failed at varying rates at anywhere between 1 and 6 months.
I just bought a Cyborg Evo and, rare as they are, after about two weeks there's already lag-spikes. e.g. Ailerons will dip to one extreme for a short moment.
If the trigger is out, I guess you just need to open it and look at it yourself :D It just disappointed me and I never tried (I sledgehammered the thing), it shouldn't be rocket science tho. Who cares about aesthetics at that point.
Oct, there's no such thing as too sensible.. But the deadzone for the twist is ****, it's true. Not because it's too sensitive, but because of the combination of sensitive and not precise enough. The output increments per input amount are not smooth enough, they feel like a bad staircase.
I scale very flat-exponential because of that.
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Same here as Moot, had a number of x45's fail, however the X36 was bulletproof.
Same as Levi/Lazs here now, all CH usb, but I tried the Cougar before too.
Very happy with CH stuff to this point, and it's been nearly a year.
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Yeah Moot, thats another thing... the increments are ass. Staircase is a good description :)
Arlo, what I meant about the 3D Gold was that it's overused and very worn. The stick can move a good 1/3" before meeting any spring resistance. The twist can rotate about 1/4" before meeting resistance. They're just loose. :(
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Originally posted by Soulyss
On Saitek... I had a X36 from Saitek (refurb) and I used it for 3+ years before it started going out on me a couple months back. Others I've heard have had them die on them after a few months. Nice controllers, but something is severly lacking in the Saitek quality control department.
CH Products... Just startd using a full CH setup (Fighterstick, throttle, pedals) when my X36 started to go, been going for a month or two now. My biggest concerns were the Fighterstick doesn't have a lot of resistence to it. Makes it a little easier to over control, but I think I was able to make the adjustment. The Fighterstick is also HUGE. Again I was worred that I could reach the top 8 way hat with my thumb for views, it was a little uncomfortable at first but again I got used to it and I can fly my normal amount (1-2 hours a night) without any discomfort. Actually my biggest gripe about CH over the X36 is the throttle, I much prefered the rocking motion on the Saitek throttle to the sliding motion on the CH. I find that sometimes I accidently knock the throttle back in a dogfight and suddenly I'm not in WEP anymore. All in all though I like the CH stuff. If I could make my own, I would scale the stick down a little bit and add resistence, or a scalable resistence screw or somthing to it. But all in all a nice setup.
Go to Ch Hanger (http://www.Ch-hanger.com) they will tell you how you can make a little upgrade. So for people with small hands can reach the 8way hat