Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: discod on November 30, 2000, 06:34:00 PM
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What do you think? I think it will help put focus back on gameplay for a lot of people who prefer to fly the types of planes that I always shoot down in my "dweeb C" (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Only problem is that even though they will be rewarded greatly for shooting down superior planes...there still reamins the problem of shooting down superior pilots in superior planes (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
I'm looking forward to Perks because it will add a new dynamic to this game that I think it really needs and from a scoring point of view I think it will help even things out quite a bit....but we'll have to wait and see what happens to all the whining (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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No idea. Probably not.
I think it will add another facet to the fun, that's for sure. Fun to fly one of those planes and fun to hunt a bastidge down in his. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
-Westy
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For $30.00 a month you should be able to fly whatever plane you want.
Instead of doing "perks" do separate arenas for eras of planes.
Mav
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Naw discod, they're going to be incredibly more pissed when that damn bastard HOs/warpkills/vultches/shoot's on rtb that shiny new plane they saved up for. Man, I can't wait!
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I have a feeling that that more and more people will give into the HO-whiner bandwagon when they get their uber rides shot out from underneath them.
Oh ya, and the Zeke and Spit V soaring in popularity not for the point bonus, but gun baring ability.
- Jig
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"Will "Perks" stop the whining? "
Probablity not but they will still be fun. Which would you rather have, more fun or less whining? I know my answer (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Otto CO (http://www.cris.com/~ziggy2/Intro.htm)
111th Fighter Group (http://www.cris.com/~ziggy2/)
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Now hear this, now hear this:
Whining will never stop.
That is all.
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Will the whining ever stop?
You can never stop the whining -- you can only reduce the volume of it.
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Hey how aboot a Perky Whine?
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As John Paul Jones said, "We have not yet begun to whine!"
The perk system will cause an enormous amount of whining, tirades, and account deletions, but somehow the game will soldier on.
The really bad thing ahout the perk system is that it will become an addiction within an addiction for some people.
Truely, multiple arena sets with different planes are the way to go in the future but it takes time to grow into that. Even then perk planes still retain a good deal of usefulness.
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Doug "Pyro" Balmos
HiTech Creations
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The really bad thing ahout the perk system is that it will become an addiction within an addiction for some people.
Oh no! Another AH addiction to worry about! Just don't tell my wife (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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Eheh, sometimes I think that PYRO & Co. have a lot of of fun reading about whines & whiners (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) Perk system? Can of worms (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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Aces High more addictive than it already is?
isn't that illegal? or at least the equivelant of inhailing 10 pounds of crack rock vs regular cocaine?
I for one am scared
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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only whiners who're not satisfied with what they have and who want to have them uber birds need PERK (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
I got my D-HOG already (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
DW6
Disclaimer* i think it's a good idea
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Expect me to whine a lot when the perk system arrives.
Hear the words "gamey", "sell out" and whatnot from my lips. And "no level playing field"
Right now when I take off I know I'll be facing some dangerous opponents. I also know they aren't impossible to beat and I know where their weaknesses are.
In comes a handsomehunk Spit XIV. Sweeps through our squad formation. Oh yay, even if he doesn't shoot us down, there goes a full squad mission with tactics coordination planning and all.
Perk system might bring about the fall of some squads here in AH.
Because of what I've mentioned.
I *really really* think it's a bad decision. Going there "because it's there" is wise if you're a mountaineer but doing it knowing it'll upset at least a good deal of the existing supporters of a cause is not good.
Oh btw; sorry about doomsday speech; I just found ou I have an additional exam that I must pass and cannot postpone as I had planned. 500 pages of economy. And a software project that's absolutely tedious (administrative systesm , WOOOHOO). As a result, for the next 30-40 days my AH time will be significantly reduced.
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
And then the perk...and then....<cries out in despair>
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StSanta
9./JG 54 "Grünherz"
while(!bishRookQueue.isEmpty() && loggedOn()){
30mmDeathDIEDIEDIE(bishRookQueue.removeFront());
System.out.println("LW pilots are superior");
myPlane.performVictoryRoll();
}
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Sorry I've to correct a little spelling error in StSanta's post ...
In comes a handsomehunk Spit XIV^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H Ta152. Sweeps through our squad formation. Oh yay, even if he doesn't shoot us down, there goes a full squad mission with tactics coordination planning and all.
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How on earth would the perk system stop the whining???
Its another reason to be whining (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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AH : Maniac
WB : -nr-1-
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Nope, instead the whining will go from
this: (http://smilecwm.tripod.com/cwm/crying.gif)
to this: (http://smilecwm.tripod.com/big/cry.gif)
And before I leave, this is for ya'll out there who thinks that flying strictly LW aeroplanes makes ya "the best": (http://smilecwm.tripod.com/cwm2/puke.gif)
-SW (http://smilecwm.tripod.com/cwm2/Up_to_something.gif)
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It kills me that I hear, "It won't be a level playing field....there will be gamerz with uber planes killing the regular players".
The playing field is still even. You are working in the same system they are. Your on the equal terms.
Also your forgetting the other points.
- Lesser used aircraft will give more points than the rest.
If you ask me, anything that gets people out of the Spitfire-9 and C-hog is a damn good thing. It gets real dull real quick just fighting the three top planes all the time.
There will be more variety in the skys.
- A reason to live. Yup, less of that unrealistic Kamikaze flying. Your score has value, and you will see people actually trying to fight for their very lives.
- Dweeb Hunt! The perk plane system makes killing a high quality fighter with a low quality one worth alot of points. The Perk planes don't get much higher than that. They're worth the most points to shoot one down.
If you see one, you might actually have to wait in line to kill it. EVERYONE will pile onto that sucker because its valueable to them.
[/list]
Its going to help the game.
Hell, I barely play AH much because I got bored of mindless furballing with no purpose. I needed a goal to strive for. I often considered canceling my account, but left it runnign because I think HT and Pyro are heading in the direction I like. I was waiting for something new...anything...just something new.
I personally can't wait, and I am not even all that interested in the perk planes themselves. I may not even use them if I have the points to buy one.
Hans.
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Originally posted by StSanta:
Expect me to whine a lot when the perk system arrives.
Right now when I take off I know I'll be facing some dangerous opponents. I also know they aren't impossible to beat and I know where their weaknesses are.
In comes a handsomehunk Spit XIV. Sweeps through our squad formation. Oh yay, even if he doesn't shoot us down, there goes a full squad mission with tactics coordination planning and all.
What do you call that? WHINE away Santa.
Oh my poor formation.. that guy just ruined it! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
Oh Boo HOO.. I don't know how to fight that plane (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
Get real. Better planes is part of war. How do you think the allies felt the first time they saw an Me-262 go screaming through their formations?
Just play the game and deal with your adversaries' strengths and weaknesses. If you can't, then YOU need to adapt. Join a better squad, change contries, fly with a countryman that has one of those Uber planes.
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/mad.gif) JUST QUIT WHINING!!!!!!!!! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/mad.gif)
The clock will strike 12... Beware the night
Midnight
13th TAS
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Perk Planes?
What a joke!
I do not think pissing off a substantial part of a customer base to enable some part of said customer base to fly around saying "mine is bigger than yours" is a good idea.
When they get here, which I am sure they will, it will be reevaluation time again, addictions can be overcome.
Pyro is indeed right though, the GAME will soldier on.
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When did they put this thing in here and WTF is it for?
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Ok, then. Those planes we all like will never be in AH. You want that?..
you want to fly a P47M?
you want to fly a P51H?
you want to fly a F7F?
you want to fly a F8F?
you want to fly a Il10?
you want to fly a La7?
You want to fly a Ta152?
You want to fly a Me262?
you want to fly a Me163?
you want to fly a He162?
you want to fly a B29?
you want to fly a Ar234?
you want to fly a Meteor?
you want to fly a Tempest?
you want to fly a SpitXIV?
you want to drive a IS-2?
you want to drive a TigerII?
you want to drive a Pershing?
etc...
If you want all that, then must be on a perk system. Or on a RPS system. If not, then say buh-bye to them.
[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 12-01-2000).]
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Can someone tell me why we need the above planeset that RAM djust posted?
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AH : Maniac
WB : -nr-1-
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Okay, here it goes. This is my attempt and placing some THOUGHT into this perk plane system.
Hans did a nice job, but did not hit all of the points that exist.
Realistically thinking, if there is a single plane perk or not and he sees a squad of 4 or 5 guys.. that plane does not magically make him superior to 5 guys. No matter what. Obviously if all of you give chase to him, he can easily rope-a-dope you if he has speed and alt. Not much different from what we currently are facing. If you fear a single con, whether it be a 262 or a Spit14 when there's a group of you, then I'd seriously be ashamed of myself and that group. You think someone who just got himself a nice perty airplane that's a little faster than yours or turns a little better or both is going to give him the balls to engage 3 or 4 cons alone? If he does that, he's an idiot and you can just as easily blow his nice perty perk plane outta the sky and he's back to square one. Just because the plane is labelled "perk" does not mean it's going to give any one pilot advantages over the other, so long as you use YOUR plane's strenghts to your advantages. Spit14, great speed, dive and SpitIX's turning abilities. Shotty roll rate at best and it's accel isn't as good as, say an La5FN's with WEP engaged. Well there ya go, you force a seperation from that there Spit14 in a chandelle with maybe a little barrel roll in there and you've got your seperation. What can ya do with it from there is up to YOU. On the deck I don't fear an N1K2 or a F4U-1C or a Spitfire or a Zero or a 190 in my La5. I can whip that baby around and throw it into some nice manuevers that gives me a little more breathing room while denying them the shot. How does the SpitIX differ from the Spit14? Speed and that's it. P51H/K, faster plane and better up high. P47N, great high alt fighter.. I'm not going up to 25K anytime soon, are you? Ta152, same as above. 190Dora9, same as a 190A8 but faster. I ain't too worried, I'm sure I can figger out how to beat one of those.... LOL.
I'm sorry guys, but what you are spewing in regards to perk planes is simply unfounded and you have nothing to prove otherwise. YOu can't tell me, "oh but in another game I fought this with that and lost.." Different game, different set of rules. Or "Well when I'm in my <insert plane here> and fight this really good <insert really good plane here>, I get my bellybutton handed to me.. it's the plane's fault!!" Eck, I don't think you knew enough about your foes plane to pronounce it's weaknesses while using your strengths. You can sit here and yap at me about your 190A8 or your pony or your P38 or your N1K2 or your Spitfire, I won't listen. When these here perk planes arrive, you can bet your butt I'm gonna be offline and learn what they can and can't do before I log in to find out on the business end of their guns. I've always liked the bottom of the barrel aircraft, and I've always learned how to become competent in them because I took the time to learn each and every other aircraft's relative performance. How can you honestly expect to beat anything if you don't know how they perform before hand? Luck? Gaming the game to force them to overshoot and break off thus giving you the advantage? C'mon, lets not be lamers here and start getting all uppity before the damn things arrive. When they get here, lets fight those buggers in their silicon perked planes.. I'm gonna do my best to make sure someone flying a perk plane that fights me goes down in flames, then I'm gonna shove it in their face that they lost it to a peon like me.
Screw the perk planes, I like the bottom of the barrel, but I still want to shoot the damned things down!!!
-SW
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It may not stop the whinin, but it just may cause the few who whine the most to leave.
In view of the above, I think this perk system is a mighty fine thing.
Ice
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Sorry about that RAM... I was hot headed and didn't realize that you were explaining why the perk would work... I didn't finish reading the entire post before I wrote my reply. My mistake...
<SNIP> RAM... <SNIP> if all those planes were available all the time, no one would fly the planes we have now. THe perk system is a good way to model the availablity of some of those high performance and late war planes. Most times, the better pilots and squads got those planes, not the rookies.
If every newbie dweeb cold get the top notch plane, the whole concept of fighting to live and use stratagy to keep alive would be blown out the window.
I think it is great to have to cash in perk points to get a fancy ride. If you know you can't just go grab another one right away if you loose the one you're in, you might not fly it like an idiot.
For those that are inexperienced and get one anyway, they will just crash it and be back in the Chog or Spit IX or whatever.
Just put it this way...
Would you rather see an occasional Me-262 coming at you, or a whole fudging squad (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/eek.gif) of them? If they are not perk planes, I garuntee that is exactly what you will see.
Bring the perks. I can't wait (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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"Wing up, Get kills, Be happy"
Midnight
13th TAS
[This message has been edited by Midnight (edited 12-01-2000).]
[This message has been edited by Midnight (edited 12-01-2000).]
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Er, Midnight, that was RAM's point. RAM is pro-perk.
Sisu
-Karnak
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Anything that is new, or leading edge technology, or new-strat based, is going to have both Pro's and Con's. I call for those in this community to keep an optimistic view, try it out, and if the majority of the community hates it, HTC will bag it!
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Any doubt this thread is self explanatory? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Cheers,
Pepe
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NOTHING...I repeat NOTHING will stop the whining...
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My 2 week free trial ended a while back and i have read nothing before of the above posts..I have some questions...
1. Do my eyes decieve me or will the game be played like this ex. The more kills you get the better your choice of airplanes become.??
2.Is thier a scheduled arrival time of all the aircraft coming within the next year???
Thats all i wanted to know because if this goes into effect I would love to buy a subscription (now that this 19 year old college kid has found a job) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
and anyway I never really thought the people in Aces High didnt really whined...If their was any in the first place this will silent it..
Its a splendid idea...WTG!
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aka Nefari...
Fighting in the air is not sport, it is scientific murder...
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Nefarious, you can read about the perks in the NEWS bulletin board, latest by Pyro.
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Guys, we'll go from having squad missions where we can expect evenly matched forces to a gamey world where some fly uber planes and other don't. Sure, everyone can fly uber planes at some point, but that only adds more of gamey feeling.
The squad is what keeps me in AH. Squad mission and coordination rules.
That's what I mean with level playing field.
Dweeb hunt will only detract immersion for me.
Bah, humbug.
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StSanta
9./JG 54 "Grünherz"
while(!bishRookQueue.isEmpty() && loggedOn()){
30mmDeathDIEDIEDIE(bishRookQueue.removeFront());
System.out.println("LW pilots are superior");
myPlane.performVictoryRoll();
}
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StSanta,
How do you think a German pilot in a Bf109G-6 felt as a squadron of Spitfire F.MkXIVs tore his staffel apart?
How about the feelings of the P-51D pilot watching Me262s blowing away the B-17s he is escorting while there is nothing he can do but watch?
Did the Spitfire MkVb pilots who took off to do a sweep over France and became the first Allied pilots to meet Fw190As for the first time know what they were about to be facing?
It was never about being balanced or fair or knowing what you were about to be facing.
Its about using tactics to deal with expected, unexpected and rapidly changing situations.
Sisu
-Karnak
[This message has been edited by Karnak (edited 12-01-2000).]
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La-7 as a perk plane ???
How many Ta-152s and P-51Hs have been produced before the end of WWII ? Because I don't know for certain but I have like a 99.9999(9)% confidence that many more La-7s have been produced than those exotic planes.
Let me compare the numbers with widely available in the arena 109G10 (I assume those are with DB605AS, not DB605D engines).
So, numbers for La-7:
In June 1944 VVS received 57 La-7s, in July 108, in September 225, in October 379 etc.
Since the start of mass production till the end of the war 4359 La-7s were received by VVS (from "Aircraft Construction in the USSR" by K.Yu.Kosminkov, Central Aerohydrodynamic Institute (TsAGI) publishing department).
Now, there have been around 2600 109G10s produced since the start of mass production (which is, BTW, October, not June!!) 1944 till the end of the war (estimate from "Bf109 F,G,K series" by Jochen Prien & Peter Rodeike, Schiffer Military History publishing).
I want the La-7, but not as a perk plane, as it's simply historically UNFAIR.
If we are to have a Soviet perk plane then it has to be, say, Yak-3M with VK-107A giving it top speed of 720km/h and armed with 2 20m B-20 cannon.
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My concerns...
there is no I in the word TEAM. Perk planes may all of a sudden put emphasis on saving your own hide, and sayin ferget the team, I want a perk plane!! PPl will be more concerned about running home, and staying alive rather than helping a teammate.
There have been several ideas posted as ways to implement the perk system. Modifiers for the team in the most trouble, be it # of players or bases etc. It may seem right to reward the players for their achievements, however, i'm not a fan of "the rich get richer" thing.
It would be great to see perks implemented which score points based on team activities. Helping a teammate, joining and completing missions etc. Perhaps award perk points to all players that launch on a mission, and make it to the objective, with a bonus added for those that also rtb.
There are those players in the arena that will sacrifice themselves for the team, by doing such things as augering to grab a goon for a field, ditching to hurry to the aid of a base under attack, staying in the fight when they could leave just to help a teammate etc. These guys likely don't land alot of missions but their impact is greater for the team than the runstangs..
These players will never receive any credit with a perk system that stresses save yer own hide...
AKSKurj
my thots...
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I am not here to imatate the frustration that some WWII pilots felt when they were confronted with superior planes. I am not here to imitate 6 hr flights or entire tours without ever seeing an enemy plane. Why duplicate the worst features of WWII in a flight sim?
The perk plane idea is the most idiotic I have yet seen in a game where people log on and off at all times of the day. There are other ways of getting new planes introduced.
And what of early war planes??? Using the idiotic perk idea you would have to make them a "punishment plane" in order to get them in the game or.... Don't we even care about early war planes? certainly the "perk" plan has no place for them. AH has little enough action without making the action we have tainted by the inherant unfairness of "perk".
lazs
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Originally posted by SKurj:
My concerns...
there is no I in the word TEAM. Perk planes may all of a sudden put emphasis on saving your own hide, and sayin ferget the team, I want a perk plane!! PPl will be more concerned about running home, and staying alive rather than helping a teammate.
AKSKurj
my thots...
Kinda reflects my thoughts also. We'll see how it changes the MA but I, for one, will most likely never be able to fly a perk plane because of my limited flying time.
OTOH, my first choice for a target will be the perk planes just to spoil someones point mongering. That's the way I'll whine about point ho's. Hunt them and kill 'em and let THEM whine for me!
Lars
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Skurj
I really dont aggree that there is something anti team about the concept of perk planes.
That guy that ditches to grab a goon will loose few points and if he is successfull he will be handsomely rewarded with points, just like he is now.
Flying in a team will make you more successful, that success is rewareded with a high score like it is now, and like it was in the war. If people that you think are on your team abandon you cause they cant risk themselves, then consider your team mates cause that is nothing to do with the perk system.
Wisk.
As to the rarity of the LA7 you may be right, but the consideration is effect on the game not rarity. The Spit XIV and Me 262 were not rare, but because of their capabilitys they are being considered and guerenteed for perk status. Maybe the La7 is in the same boat(although since it is a refined la5fn it seems unlikly). The G10 in AH is the 605D powered version. It represents werk number 130282. Your Prein book will tell you that it is powered with the DB606Dm. I think it has been established in detail that the AH g10 performs like a D engined plane as well.
I once again have to salute Pyro and HT. What an increadably elegent potential solution to several of the moves that they want to make and to several of the things people have been complaining about and or asking for. To ride the storm between the Boo birds and the Cheerleaders with such finese while still keeping their eye on the ball is probably the greatest testement to the way they have chosen to develop their game and the customer base. I dont think many teams could do it, little own develop the game.
I predict the TA will be full of people every time a perk plane is introduced......
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So what's so satisfying about amassing more and more points? Diversity of different things\asignments/goals to accomplish in the game rather than just different AC is what would attract me back. AH has too many fighter planes already.
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Actually my Prein book says that G10 was intended to be powered by 605D, but the vast majority got 605AS instead as 605D was not ready. So I thought AH chose a more common G10 with 605AS. If it's 605D modeled then it was even rarer than 2600.
109K4 received exlusively 605Ds.
Also, apparently not that many 605AS powered AC's were equipped with MW50.
That TsAGI's study gives data on captured 109s and 190s as compared to La's and Yak's. La-7 was compared to 109G10, 190D9 and 190A8.
(Actually it has a whole section named "Comparative analysis" and the detailed description of test methodology).
It has higher speed than G10 till about 6.3km
in alt and higher climbrate till about 5km alt. Turn rate at 1km - 18-19secs, for 109K - 21secs.
They also use some more complicated metrics for comparison:
full specific mechanical energy (described by a set of equations: E=H+V*V/(2*g), dV/dt=(g/V)*(nx - sin("Theta")), H- alt, V-speed, g-gravity acceleration, nx=dE/ds where s is the length of the trajectory, "Theta" is the angle of trajectory to level)
From these equations and a bunch of other data they derive "criteria of similarity" that allow to compare parameters to which the following measurements are proportional:
Max speed
Max sustained overloading
Vertical manueverability and acceleration
Energyloading
Min horizontal turn time
And they give the graphs for dependencies between these things and show the areas in the graphs that are "good".
Heck, the book is written by a bunch of doctors of sciences, so unless you have a degree in the stuff you won't understand much.
Apparently these data don't use the numbers if MW-50 is engaged, as they explicitely stated that only those methods of power augmentation have been used that can be sustained for longer than 10mins.
There are also charts for engine power at diff. alts and DB-605D has three subgraphs - one for nominal, one for military and one for MW-50 boosted mode. Go figure.